Glad to hear you guys missed the worst of the storm and clearing the lea side. Just saw on the weather channel where Irene's center is between Norfolk, VA and Hatteras, NC...with 30'-30'+ waves running northward offshore. Hope our AR buddies North of the Hurricane center stay safe and don't get hammered by the rain and storm surge.

Michael, sidenote. Did not meet the missus last year, but hope to this year. Will buy her a glass of wine and commiserate with her on her status as a loading room widow.

Now, how about giving us an idea of the next round of testing that you are preparing? I know that you can't do much with Irene near by, but let us know what we might expect soon.
Thanks for all your work.
Max

Next round of testing? Yes, there is an extremely ambitious agenda ahead, not just terminals, but some other things that have to be done in conjunction with terminals. Here is a short run down of some of the upcoming work to be done here.

1. A big priority is going into the 475 B&M, but currently waiting on new barrels to come in and a new stainless gun that will be built. When this does get completed, then there are 5 new North Fork bullets and 4 new Cutting Edge bullets in .474 that will have to be tested. First however, there will be a quick run of pressure trace and load data to do with each of these new bullets, and of course will be rather extensive and time consuming, and like the other B&Ms will be an ongoing search of powders and such to get the most efficient loads possible. Terminals on each of the new bullets is a big priority as well, once full potential is found.

2. While I have completed the pressure trace work on the 50 B&M SS and 50 B&M Alaskan with the new CEB lighter bullets and the 450 North Fork Premium, I have not yet been able to do so in the 50 B&M and the 500 MDM. Currently both my 50 B&M and 500 MDM pressure trace guns are at Accurate Innovations right now and will hopefully return with those nice bastogne stocks. Once in hand, will start pressure trace and load data with those bullets, primarily in the 50 B&M. There is one bullet I want to work with in the 500 MDM, a new 550 gr BBW#13 Solid. I intend to see where a 550 can be taken to in that cartridge, and then put it in the terminals at upper end velocity whatever that might be.

3. Lot's of smaller projects in the works, like last week I finally started some load data on the 458 B&M SA, it has been a back burning project for too long, so busy with that as well.

4. My buddy Lou is headed to Alaska, wants to borrow one of the 9.3 B&Ms for a goat, so I have to get it ready to go as well. Just finished yesterday getting my other buddy John sorted out with his 50 B&M Super Short and a 345 BBW#13 HP and a 375 North Fork CPS, now that is out of the way.

5. Of course there are going to be some entries into the BBW#13 HP market with small bore rifles, such as .308 caliber that will be coming in, and needing testing as well, and not really sure what other small calibers are going to be done, which will need work as well.

6. One of my pet projects, the BBW#13 Carnivore, that is coming too, and soon I think. We have decided to go with some of the most popular calibers to begin with, and 458 being at the top of the list right now. So Carnivore testing is getting ready to commence very soon.

There are many more other small projects going on too. So we have a rather busy time ahead of us the next few months. Some involving terminals, some not.

Michael

Michael,
Thank you for the reply. It looks like we have much in store for all of us. Again, thanks for the work you've done, are doing, and plan to do. Tell the wife we appreciate her sacrifices to.
Max

quote:

5. Of course there are going to be some entries into the BBW#13 HP market with small bore rifles, such as .308 caliber that will be coming in, and needing testing as well, and not really sure what other small calibers are going to be done, which will need work as well.

Hey everyone,

I'm very interested in the " 308 Bullets " testing.

From strictly a business standpoint , " CEB " would have a large customer base !

There are lots of ( 30/06 ) " Bolt Action ", along with many different " Semi-Auto " ; M1 Garand, Browning BAR , etc.

quote:

Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

All it would take is a few " Better Bullets " to make it , very effective ( Terminal ) on Big Game!

PAPI

NRA Life Member
BRRC Life Member
CRPA Life Member
Marlin 45/70
H&R 45/70
Rem 700 30/06
M1 Garand 30/06
Marlin 30/30
Armalite M15 A-2 National Match .233

Well let's see, Wife has the house torn all to hell! Remodel job, new kitchen, and JHC, I had no earthly idea things cost so much these days! Crap, I went out today to look at new granite counter tops--opppps, big F%*&ing Surprise! New Sinks? Did you know they have a damned sink that cost $1600-$1700? For a SINK! Don't even talk to me about new kitchen appliances! I came back here to the compound, I don't want to ever leave again! This thing is going to cost me two, maybe three big trips to Africa on elephant/buffalo shoots! Then on top of it, I can't even escape to the range, Air Con going in! I am afraid to ask how much that is going to be, as everything I thought has only been about a 10% estimate so far! I am doomed I tell you--Doomed! There goes my hunting money, my rifle money, my bastogne stocks, and worst of all, my damned bullets! I can't believe it! My wife liked this particular faucet. Hell faucets you know, $100 or so right? Try $1800 for a FAUCET!!!!! I grabbed her by the arm, feigned a death sweat fever, told her I had to leave and go home immediately, death was close at hand!

I suppose I live in the dark ages, I don't get out much you know! I think I will continue that trend after todays adventure!

Spoke with Dan this morning about .308 caliber BBW#13 NonCons. These rat calibers are a little out of my area, but after much discussion about overall length, tips, bands, this that the other, my thoughts were that with a BBW#13 NonCon, one does need not concern oneself with "traditional" weights. I am quite sure a 125 gr BBW#13 NonCon will out perform a 180 gr conventional, and possibly even a 200 gr conventional. I suggested 125 to 150s for the common cartridges. Maybe some 165s for some use. But really can't see needing a much heavier BBW#13 in 308 caliber? I might be wrong, rat calibers are not my area? I am hinting at a shorter less BC tip as well, one that might fit the average magazine. Not all that concerned with BC as these should be considered hunting bullets, 300-400 yds is a LONG way to me. At least these have been some of my thoughts on the matter, at least until I went to the granite place and the sink and faucet place. Right now I have hardly any thoughts much further than just passing totally out! LOL



M

I think the BBW air rifle bullets will be a great rabbit killer. How's that coming?

I gotta see pics of this sink

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Well let's see, Wife has the house torn all to hell! Remodel job, new kitchen, and JHC, I had no earthly idea things cost so much these days! Crap, I went out today to look at new granite counter tops--opppps, big F%*&ing Surprise! New Sinks? Did you know they have a damned sink that cost $1600-$1700? For a SINK! Don't even talk to me about new kitchen appliances! I came back here to the compound, I don't want to ever leave again! This thing is going to cost me two, maybe three big trips to Africa on elephant/buffalo shoots! Then on top of it, I can't even escape to the range, Air Con going in! I am afraid to ask how much that is going to be, as everything I thought has only been about a 10% estimate so far! I am doomed I tell you--Doomed! There goes my hunting money, my rifle money, my bastogne stocks, and worst of all, my damned bullets! I can't believe it! My wife liked this particular faucet. Hell faucets you know, $100 or so right? Try $1800 for a FAUCET!!!!! I grabbed her by the arm, feigned a death sweat fever, told her I had to leave and go home immediately, death was close at hand!

I suppose I live in the dark ages, I don't get out much you know! I think I will continue that trend after todays adventure!

Spoke with Dan this morning about .308 caliber BBW#13 NonCons. These rat calibers are a little out of my area, but after much discussion about overall length, tips, bands, this that the other, my thoughts were that with a BBW#13 NonCon, one does need not concern oneself with "traditional" weights. I am quite sure a 125 gr BBW#13 NonCon will out perform a 180 gr conventional, and possibly even a 200 gr conventional. I suggested 125 to 150s for the common cartridges. Maybe some 165s for some use. But really can't see needing a much heavier BBW#13 in 308 caliber? I might be wrong, rat calibers are not my area? I am hinting at a shorter less BC tip as well, one that might fit the average magazine. Not all that concerned with BC as these should be considered hunting bullets, 300-400 yds is a LONG way to me. At least these have been some of my thoughts on the matter, at least until I went to the granite place and the sink and faucet place. Right now I have hardly any thoughts much further than just passing totally out! LOL



M

what are you bitchin about--if/when the land sells I am building a House---


I may come back and move into the range with you and just tell them to send the bill------------------


SSR

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

....Try $1800 for a FAUCET!!!!!....

Modern living: A triumph of form over function.

We are indeed doomed.

quote:

Spoke with Dan this morning about .308 caliber BBW#13 NonCons. These rat calibers are a little out of my area, but after much discussion about overall length, tips, bands, this that the other, my thoughts were that with a BBW#13 NonCon, one does need not concern oneself with "traditional" weights. I am quite sure a 125 gr BBW#13 NonCon will out perform a 180 gr conventional, and possibly even a 200 gr conventional. I suggested 125 to 150s for the common cartridges. Maybe some 165s for some use. But really can't see needing a much heavier BBW#13 in 308 caliber? I might be wrong, rat calibers are not my area? I am hinting at a shorter less BC tip as well, one that might fit the average magazine. Not all that concerned with BC as these should be considered hunting bullets, 300-400 yds is a LONG way to me. At least these have been some of my thoughts on the matter, at least until I went to the granite place and the sink and faucet place. Right now I have hardly any thoughts much further than just passing totally out! LOL

Michael,

"High BC Tip vis-à-vis "Lower BC Tip" for the .308 caliber BBW#13s…I’d say stay with the High BC Tips for the BBW#13s. If someone wants a magazine feed reliably performing monometal High BC Spitzer HP in the .308 caliber…then Dan is your man as CEB already has 150gr and 165gr High BC .308 caliber bullets for sale that are not abnormally long.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Spoke with Dan this morning about .308 caliber BBW#13 NonCons. These rat calibers are a little out of my area, but after much discussion about overall length, tips, bands, this that the other, my thoughts were that with a BBW#13 NonCon, one does need not concern oneself with "traditional" weights. I am quite sure a 125 gr BBW#13 NonCon will out perform a 180 gr conventional, and possibly even a 200 gr conventional. I suggested 125 to 150s for the common cartridges. Maybe some 165s for some use. But really can't see needing a much heavier BBW#13 in 308 caliber? I might be wrong, rat calibers are not my area? I am hinting at a shorter less BC tip as well, one that might fit the average magazine. Not all that concerned with BC as these should be considered hunting bullets, 300-400 yds is a LONG way to me. At least these have been some of my thoughts on the matter, at least until I went to the granite place and the sink and faucet place. Right now I have hardly any thoughts much further than just passing totally out! LOL

Michael,

"High BC Tip vis-à-vis "Lower BC Tip" for the .308 caliber BBW#13s…I’d say stay with the High BC Tips for the BBW#13s. If someone wants a magazine feed reliably performing monometal High BC Spitzer HP in the .308 caliber…then Dan is your man as CEB already has 150gr and 165gr High BC .308 caliber bullets for sale that are not abnormally long.

Yep

lets not try to remodel the Sistine Chapel--Lots of good bullets for what they do

And the BBW#13s do what they do----


SSR

Perhaps someone could take up the work on under 366 caliber bullets with Michael as a "consultant?" Move it to the Medium Bore Rifles forum.

Then someone else could take up the work on the small calibers with Michael as a consultant and move it to the Small Calibers forum?

Lastly, someone else could take up the work on the long range work with Michael as a consultant and move it to the Long Range Shooting forum?

There's some good discovery going on here that needs follow up however it appears to me to be getting a bit disorganized.

I agree with Michael that 300-400 yards is LONG range. But it is a huntable range that can account for 1-2% of African shots. And it quickly starts creeping up into more and more common shots when the range is around 250 yards.

Now at 300 and 400 yards, the BC is very IMPORTANT.

Take a 450 grain, .500" bullet at 2600 fps with a BC of .150 and compare it to a bullet a similar 450 grain, .500" bullet at 2600 with a BC of .450.
Using a 3" max height in the 2600fps muzzle-trajectory,
compare the 300 and 400 yard drops:

#1
.150 BC at 300 yards and 400 yards
drops -18" and -57" !
Such a rapid drop makes the bullet unreliable over 200 yards. In addition, the muzzle energy of 6750 ftlbs has dropped to .270 Win levels at 300 yards, and down to .222 levels at 400 yards. It is simply a no-go. Such a bullet can only be used reliably within 200 yards where it still retains 1600 fps and some reasonable clout, though unimpressive. (It is below 300 WM and 338 WM ftlbs at the same range). The 400 velocity drops below the speed of sound, down to 1050 fps. Going down through the sound-barrier is totally unacceptable for longer hunting shots.

#2
then compare the same 2600 fps muzzle with a
.450 BC at 300 yards and 400 yards":
it only drops -7.5" and -24".

That is 'huntable', it keeps the bullet on fur for hartebeest and waterbuch-sized animals. Plus, the remaining velocity of 1900+fps at 400 yards provides reliable bullet terminals and 3600 ftlb of usable energy (equivalent to 300 WM at muzzle).

There is simply no comparative choice, here. The .450 BC is the only huntable choice for the 250-400 yard range if one wants to hit on target, have predictable terminals, and provide enough energy to accomplish everything and anything.

For me, 250 yard shots are 'bread and butter'. They are common enough to repay the preparation and capability. I really prefer rounds that can do 2800 fps with .400 BC. When I go out a-walking, I'm only carrying one rifle. Back in the day, that was sometimes the only rifle in the party, though nowadays my son provides a minimum of a second rifle.

So having CEB make the 'non-con' capable for ALL-AROUND use is a huge advantage and drawing card for me. Otherwise, I'll have to use those blue-tipped thingys, which may be considered the standard to measure against.

I appreciate the good-will that Dan has shown in working with Michael on this and in considering the longer range necessities.

The boat tail switch point tipped bullet will be the ultimate in BC

quote:

So having CEB make the 'non-con' capable for ALL-AROUND use is a huge advantage and drawing card for me. Otherwise, I'll have to use those blue-tipped thingys, which may be considered the standard to measure against.

I appreciate the good-will that Dan has shown in working with Michael on this and in considering the longer range necessities.

Tan,

I can tell you from my discussions with Dan that he is a wealth of knowledge on long range shooting and High BC bullets! The BBW#13 Dangerous Game bullets was a whole new world for him and he most definitely appreciates the knowledge and assistance he has received from Michael and Sam in bringing these successfully performing bullets to market.

Then throw in NF and their willingness to work with Michael to deliver their expanding and solid bullets to the market in weights and calibers to fully flesh out the B&M cartridge line needs; Super Shorts, Semi-Auto, Lever Action, and inclusive of the standard Long.

Barnes does make some very nice TSX and TTSX bullets and I do not believe their RN BND Solids will live up to the performance of their RN BND Solids... I place that into the same category that I place their undersized bullets in some calibers – specifically in my case in the .423 caliber where their bands only measure .420” in diameter and there is no way that humongous bottom band or any of their driving bands will ever seal in the “somewhat modern standard” .4225” - .423” diameter 404 Jeffery barrel. Truly unfortunate… but something that Dan is currently working on a resolution for me.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
The boat tail switch point tipped bullet will be the ultimate in BC

Sam's prototype is definitely an interesting bullet shape.

I think the banding may need some putzing around with…perhaps adding a fifth band, narrowing all five bands to maintain the four band bearing surface, and perhaps using a slightly wider band spacing than the NE band spacing so that it will fit just about any bullet seating requirement from lever rifles through DRs…bolt trash is assumed!

But yes, it’s another design prototype I can hardly wait for Sam and Michael to perfect through testing…another arrow in the quiver!

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
The boat tail switch point tipped bullet will be the ultimate in BC

Sam's prototype is definitely an interesting bullet shape.

I think the banding may need some putzing around with…perhaps adding a fifth band, narrowing all five bands to maintain the four band bearing surface, and perhaps using a slightly wider band spacing than the NE band spacing so that it will fit just about any bullet seating requirement from lever rifles through DRs…bolt trash is assumed!

But yes, it’s another design prototype I can hardly wait for Sam and Michael to perfect through testing…another arrow in the quiver!

I see this system bullet and some premium softs as the only bullets you would need. There is a niche I think for versatility that does not compromise much and mission specific bullets that compromise nothing. I think the switch point using the flat point could add stability since it would be a weight forward design.

Would be cool to see a switch point design for the lever action.
A 325 grain 458 switch point could be pretty sweet @ 2,000 fps. These six pointed Death Star NonCons are greatly suited for the lever carts.

Boomy

Your switch point bullet idea is very good. I think it's getting close to the top of the list with good ideas coming from Boomy! However there is one thing to think about. These will cost a tad more than your normal NonCon bullet. Solids are cheaper than NonCons, less work and time of course. So if the switch bullet is more expensive than the NonCon, and one decides to use it as a solid, now economics start to become a reality. Being more expensive than the NonCon as well? Hmmmm? Does offer a great advantage of less bullets on the shelves however! Something to ponder I suppose? Ideas?

Excellent Idea however, and I believe it will work too!

RANGE almost finished with the Air Con. My boys got me in good enough shape to start shooting today WITH AIR CON! And IT WORKS Excellent. In fact, I thought I might have to put a sweater on in there yesterday! HEH HEH...... Have some finishing touches to do on Tuesday then it's finished. But before I can shoot, Momma has me trapped doing some work in her garden, yes, digging in the dirt, and crap like that! The things we have to live with!


Also just FYI--I listed 4 Winchester M70 458 Lotts down in classified, anyone interested go take a look.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...301069161#5301069161

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Storm passing us now and I'm on the backside. Had about 4 inches of rain which I needed and not too much wind damage. Nice hurricane! Could have been a lot worse.

Pretty bad in many parts of NJ including mine. Record rain and high winds here knocked out power for 5 days and I was standing in 3 feet of water in my newly re-finished family room. Almost every street was blocked by fallen trees and it took me 3 hours to drive the 11 miles to the hospital.

But today, nearly back to normal after the cleanup and hoping I can make it Upstate to play with CEBs in .620 and .375 calibers. Picked up some lightweight TTSX, TSX and Nosler Partitions for the 375 Flanged Magnum Nitro Express too. I like the idea of high BC bullets for the 375 so like the tipped Non-con concept.

Thanks Michael
I guess maybe someone from CEB could chime in but I don't know why the cost would be more. A nose profile over a bore rider shank and rear driving band. Would remove a tad more metal but I don't know if that's enough to up cost over a non con. I "ass u me" the bar stock is fed in, the hollow point made then the nose profile next the shank and driving bands finally cut to length and repeat. The difference in the switch point would be add boat tail and cut to length. Ahh all those lost years of youth making slave wages working for my Dad in the machine shop. I swear I spent half my youth between machine shops and Denny's restaurants waiting for him to finish the paper and retelling bad jokes to new waitresses.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

Pretty bad in many parts of NJ including mine. Record rain and high winds here knocked out power for 5 days and I was standing in 3 feet of water in my newly re-finished family room. Almost every street was blocked by fallen trees and it took me 3 hours to drive the 11 miles to the hospital.

Condolences to CCMDoc.
That will put a crimp on life!

The reversible, football, pigskinner, beer keg bullet is interesting.
Many of us have toyed with the idea for a long time, here at ar.com.
It would be nice to see a bigtime maker like CEB pull it off.
And add the Talon Tips for higher BC needs:

One planet, one rifle, one bullet: CEB

quote:

Pretty bad in many parts of NJ including mine. Record rain and high winds here knocked out power for 5 days and I was standing in 3 feet of water in my newly re-finished family room. Almost every street was blocked by fallen trees and it took me 3 hours to drive the 11 miles to the hospital.

Sorry to hear about your damage. If I was on your coast I'd pitch in and help out.

quote:

The reversible, football, pigskinner, beer keg bullet is interesting.
Many of us have toyed with the idea for a long time, here at ar.com.
It would be nice to see a bigtime maker like CEB pull it off.
And add the Talon Tips for higher BC needs:

The short tip to bore diameter truncated cone BBW #13 nose profile is what makes the idea work so well. It just looks like a normal boat tail bullet with the tip inserted. It's just so cool. To get it to market would be amazing. If CEB buys enough advertising maybe a gun rag would do a propper article on these magic bullets. It would blow peoples minds to have a such a multi purpose bullet is say a 225 grain 338 bullet, a 270 grain 375, a 375 grain 416 and a 570 grain .510"

quote:

The short tip to bore diameter truncated cone BBW #13 nose profile is what makes the idea work so well. It just looks like a normal boat tail bullet with the tip inserted. It's just so cool. To get it to market would be amazing. If CEB buys enough advertising maybe a gun rag would do a propper article on these magic bullets. It would blow peoples minds to have a such a multi purpose bullet is say a 225 grain 338 bullet, a 270 grain 375, a 375 grain 416 and a 570 grain .510"

Dan may have ideas on some 'best' weights to propose for these versatile bullets.
Here is my first run at the list:

.338 = yes the 225 grain should work, giving about 2800 in a WinMag.
.375 = yes, the 270 gives better Sectional Density than the Barnes 250TTSX and could be used on buffalo, legally. The 375 Ruger (=/>375HH) would do 2800+ fps.
.416 = probably limiting to 330-350 grains would work better. It has the SD for buffalo and would be short enough for stability in flight in traditional 16.5" barrels. Also better for shorter cartridges. The 416Ruger/Rem should do 2600fps, the 416Rigby would do 2800fps.
.458 = maybe something in the 400 grain range. Again, a good BC for a non-con .272 (remembering that non-cons and monometals can work with a 10+% SD reduction from a lead-core bullet. Aiming at 2600 fps for Lott and AccRel sized cartridge.
.500 = can't leave out the .500"! A 450-460 grain would give reasonable SD for a heavy bore and potential lightness for a little velocity up to 2600 fps in the 49-10.
.510 = A versatile, potentially fast bullet should be offered at 465-475 grains or so.
Again, this would allow a 500AccRel to achieve 2600fps, which is close to RIP's soft-load in the Mbogo (460grain/2650fps).

When designing these bullets, we need to remember that non-cons like velocity. And some of the shorter cartridges prefer shorter (=lighter) bullets. It still remains to discover what will enhance the outward thrust of the 'star' pattern in terminals. In any case, tipped bullets like speed, too.

One planet, one rifle, one bullet: CEB

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

When designing these bullets, we need to remember that non-cons like velocity. And some of the shorter cartridges prefer shorter (=lighter) bullets. It still remains to discover what will enhance the outward thrust of the 'star' pattern in terminals. In any case, tipped bullets like speed, too.

One planet, one rifle, one bullet, but several potential caliber choices: Made possible by the CEB Reversible FN-HP-TalonTip

"Scope lightly and carry a big kick and you shall go far."
Theodore Roosevelt, from The Happy Hunting Ground.

My guess is past 100 yards with the high BC boat tail "talon tip" switcheroo bullet would be more deadly than non tipped flat or hollow point with the higher impact velocity. Was thinking the high BC bullet for high velocity carts like the 416 Rigby, 338 Lapua, 378 WBY and 50 BMG but could to fantastic in nominal velocity carts as well adding down range velocity and longer MPBR. 600 yard baboon sniping!

Personally, I would like to try the .338 bullets in the 225 grain weight, then the .375 bullets (probably will never get them for the .395). Lastly, either the .458 or .475 bullets for a big bore. This whole idea has to bring about a revolution in the bullet world.
Max

Prof242...
What kind?

Why your double-ended, tipped, non-con/long range/solid of course!
Max

Well it is a collaboration of great minds and great people. Testing will be fun.

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
Why your double-ended, tipped, non-con/long range/solid of course!
Max

Something tells me this train has gone seriously off the track

It won't be for everyone

Dave,
Do you have any data for the .450 Marlin in your BLR that is above that as used in the 1895 Marlin? I.E., at higher pressures?

Figuring a bullet weight for a reversible:
The 404 or .423-caliber is a nice middle of the road place to start.
Here are the latest from CEB:
400-gr FN
375-gr HP
350-gr FN
325-gr HP









Roughly estimating a 25-grain loss when the flat base is turned into a flat nose in this caliber,
so whittle the 375-grain HP down to reversible:

The reversible would be about 350-grains and 1.500" long.
That is mighty long.
I would not want to go any lighter than 350grains for the all-purpose .423-caliber reversible.

Add the Talon Tip and it is way long,
about perfect for long range use in my 1:10" twist McGowen barrels ...
as long as the .423" diameter brass works in the .4245" McGowen barrels.
The .423" North Fork copper bullets have always been sub-MOA in same barrels.

If necessary, Pac-Nor .423" grooves, and fast twist.

BUT hold my hosses: These new CEB bullets measure .424" on the bands by my calipers!
Should be perfect.
0.412" on the bore-riding shank,
and the HP cavities are about 0.448" deep.

Bands on the Reversible format: 4 bands in the middle, and no seal band at the base, of course, since there is no more flat base.

Well, just sticking with the current band structures on separate FN and HP bullets,
with the option of the Talon Tip on the lighter HP,
and the heavier FN for "solid work,"
well, that ain't such a bad idea!

Maybe I better get on Dave Bush's trolley, and
keep it on the tracks ...

"Scope lightly and carry a big kick and you shall go far."
Theodore Roosevelt, from The Happy Hunting Ground.

Keeping four bands and the same weight can save Michael a lot of pressure trace work
What do you think about .8" from flat tip to crimp and the left over for the non con side? Or should the bands be in the center?

quote:

Originally posted by Tanzan:

.338 = yes the 225 grain should work, giving about 2800 in a WinMag.
.375 = yes, the 270 gives better Sectional Density than the Barnes 250TTSX and could be used on buffalo, legally. The 375 Ruger (=/>375HH) would do 2800+ fps.
.416 = probably limiting to 330-350 grains would work better. It has the SD for buffalo and would be short enough for stability in flight in traditional 16.5" barrels. Also better for shorter cartridges. The 416Ruger/Rem should do 2600fps, the 416Rigby would do 2800fps.
.458 = maybe something in the 400 grain range. Again, a good BC for a non-con .272 (remembering that non-cons and monometals can work with a 10+% SD reduction from a lead-core bullet. Aiming at 2600 fps for Lott and AccRel sized cartridge.
.500 = can't leave out the .500"! A 450-460 grain would give reasonable SD for a heavy bore and potential lightness for a little velocity up to 2600 fps in the 49-10.
.510 = A versatile, potentially fast bullet should be offered at 465-475 grains or so.
Again, this would allow a 500AccRel to achieve 2600fps, which is close to RIP's soft-load in the Mbogo (460grain/2650fps).

When designing these bullets, we need to remember that non-cons like velocity. And some of the shorter cartridges prefer shorter (=lighter) bullets. It still remains to discover what will enhance the outward thrust of the 'star' pattern in terminals. In any case, tipped bullets like speed, too.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
My guess is past 100 yards with the high BC boat tail "talon tip" switcheroo bullet would be more deadly than non tipped flat or hollow point with the higher impact velocity. Was thinking the high BC bullet for high velocity carts like the 416 Rigby, 338 Lapua, 378 WBY and 50 BMG but could to fantastic in nominal velocity carts as well adding down range velocity and longer MPBR. 600 yard baboon sniping!

Practically speaking, the hollow point is probably good to 175 yards.
It will have dropped a lot of its velocity by 175 yards but gravity will not yet have it plunging steeply down.

A 2" height at 100 yards provides a 170 yard zero with the CEB-non-con. However, even a "fast" 2600 fps muzzle velocity will already have dropped to 1750 fps. After 200 yards the bullet starts falling like a rock right off the charts. And the remaining energy punch for the bullet drops below typical 338WinMag loads between 175 and 200 yards (under 3000 ftlbs). From there on out the bullet drops to 30-06 energies (2000 ft lbs) and then 243 energies (1000) by the 300-400 range,

However, we are talking about practical hunting on this thread, and specifically including dangerous game hunting. Hunters who would never shoot over 200 yards can ignore the discussion about talon tips (they may think of them as Pinochio noses).

The good news for hunters is that from 200 yards on out, a person often has ample time to drop a special bullet into the chamber. In fact, whenever chambering a round and working on a stalk one could simply start with the talon-tip round.

I've hunted in a similar way most of my life. Lead-tips used to flatten and get roughed up and misshaped in a magazine from recoil. I would routinely file-off and sharpen damaged tips from ammunition and then use them to fill up the lower part of a magazine when loading up. I would then top off a magazine with a pristine, clean, high-BC round. This would be the round to be fired first. In that way I always had a predictable BC and target accuracy for a critical first shot. And in some semi-open areas shots around 200-250 yards were reasonably frequent.

The only difference from such hunting styles with these non-con talon tips would be that a shot from 200-400 yards must be considered as if from single-shot rifle. A second, follow-up, HP-non-con shot at 300 yards might drop more than a foot from the first shot. It better be a solid, too, because it would need all the penetration that it can get as its velocity drops into the 1500-1000 fps range. This is not really a problem, because the first shot should be fatal. A hunter never relies on a second shot. Maybe I'll get a chance to try this all out in Fall 2012. Due to logistics and the pace of paperwork in Africa, there is no time for changes this fall.

.423 CEB BBW#13 FN Solids and HP NonCon Bullets:
I have these bullets as well but hadn’t had a chance to completely measure them up – thanks RIP for providing the bullet lengths.

I think we had a definite moment when we spec’d the .423 caliber bullet. We identified the four bullet weights but would likely better been served had be benchmarked the maximum bullet lengths for the two FN Solid/HP NonCon bullet sets and let the actual bullet weights fall where they arrived at.

For the next run of bullets – when that time comes – I propose that 1.450” be set for the heavier bullet set which would keep the existing 400gr FN Solid and its paired HP NonCon should then come in at around 360grs. For the lighter bullet set – I recommend that this bullet set be kept to a maximum of 1.250” length which should result in an approximate 340gr FN Solid with a paired HP NonCon of 300gr-310gr weight.

This shorter bullet would give the smaller case capacity folks, such as users of the 10.75x68 Mauser cartridges, a real DG set of bullets for their rifles. And as Michael has demonstrated that the little 330gr Barnes FN BND Solid gives pretty darn good terminal performance in the .458 caliber, there is no reason to believe that a 340gr (approx. weight) BBW#13 FN Solid bullet would not give even better terminal performance in the .423 caliber!