Jim

Wow, you are keeping up eh? I think with the addition of the #13, if it continues as tested, while the standard other profile of the 510s SSK and CEB will be available of course, I am changing to the #13 for my field work. Between the new North Fork FPS in .500 and the #13s, that will handle any and all .500 caliber solid needs. I still really like that little 400 gr CEB for the super short, just a good looking bullet in that little fat case. Oh man, forget it, keep them all, they are all good!

I think we have an excellent selection of .500 caliber bullets, bullets that work. I will find myself using the North Fork CPS a lot in the near future backed with one of these solids, most likely working with all of them in the field next year.

Sam has been volunteered to handle the double rifle bullets and keep some in stock for folks if the #13s pan out in the prototypes too. I know I am going to lay in a stock of .500s for sure, and probably once the prototypes are approved, lay in some 458s of different weights.

Michael

458 Yeah that was my plan just make the nose a little smaller by changing the side angle. and drop to about 65% fn I also may reharden them because as hard cast RN didn't deform at all just the machined nose. I think mid 30" to low 40s may be posible out of the gun. velocity is maxed for the recoil i can take and punishment on the 1880s gun! so no more velocity any way. thanks its getn there!

I got these photos from Sam yesterday. He has been filing away with that bastard file getting these ready to send out to CEB today. These are .509 caliber for the 500 Nitros, added a 3rd band. Seating for his 500 Nitro in the next photo. #13s---I am assuming around 550 grs in brass??? Will work out a little heavier in copper.

Michael,

Thanks for posting those photos.
Yes these brass bullets are coming in around 550 grains and I hope copper would be close to 570 grains. This design is made for RL-15 and IMR 4350 which are popular powders for 500 Nitro. The bullets are seated with no wads or fillers and have slight compression to powder charge. Works perfect in my 500NE. I would like input from you double rifle guys if this is something that would be of interest to you.

Sam

sam and doc M

exellent work 71" FFS that might work on impala etc.

Now sam, i will do a deal with you, if you can get me a few of those 577 in copper at around 650 grains, i will offer to fire them in my dearly beloved best quality alexander henry, jones underlever hammerless 20/577 with full damascus barrels at around 1850 fps.

now this is beyond trust from my side, as i will consider trading the wife and children before that gun goes anywhere

doc M, if i have time and any guns left after the shows i will really try to get down to you and we can try the 12 bore in the medium as well, might even share med's after

now the 577 NE is back as king of the heap, i like that a lot

best

peter

Peter,

I don't know if I want to make a bullet that you're going to shoot in your damascus Henry's, I want to have nothing to do with a barrel busting. Even though I'm sure everything would go well I don't want to be the one that made the bullet. The two band bullets I think will work well in all other doubles. Copper is a pain to machine, but I can do anealed brass.

Sam

Peter

Yes, 71" with a 577 Nitro! I was astounded, I did not believe Sam when he pulled the box and said we had an exit, thought he was pulling my leg! Never had any bore size over .500 exit. Maybe had a .510 exit box one. But the deepest straight line was the other day with Sams #13 506 .500 at 66 inches.

Well just keep me posted on when you might be in the area, we will make a plan and I will have a box ready to test! Meds will be required??? HEHEH

This bullet I have to say does in fact put the ultra bores in business!

I should have a ball park price for you in a couple of days on the 12 bore bullets in copper. I will let you know soonest.

Sam, once Dan has things in place he can take the #13 to any caliber without much issue, just a matter of where one wants the bands and nose to mouth length for seating. The rest is easy from there.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Peter,

I don't know if I want to make a bullet that you're going to shoot in your damascus Henry's, I want to have nothing to do with a barrel busting. Even though I'm sure everything would go well I don't want to be the one that made the bullet. The two band bullets I think will work well in all other doubles. Copper is a pain to machine, but I can do anealed brass.

Sam

mate i think your design will be the only one that could be used on the old ones, besides woody's that is dont worry i will take the proper precautions before i do anything, anealed brass might work as well, i just need the rings to be really soft as the henry rifling is a bit special.
by the way i second the 600 bullets as well, as my first C-class 600NE will be going to zambia in november and i think that the client should have the best options that i can give him as far as bullets go.

shit, the way this is going, i might even reconsider making a short series of 8 bores, if we take the 12 bore design and pump it up some, who knows it might work even on light armour

best

peter

Peter, and other Double guys looking about and lurking. I know that Searcy is not a vintage gun, and is modern. I found this down on doubles, where I SOMETIMES LURK, looking around for what folks are saying about bullets, so I can learn! I found this, thought it was worthy of stealing and putting here since we just played with what some or most would consider double safe. I am just a messenger on the doubles, Peter, Sam, Corbin, I rely on their expertise.



Posted Sep 13, 2010 4:37 PM
Just want to share some info:
I was speaking to Mr Searcy today and was asking about some AR scuttlebut I heard/read that it may be unwise to use solids in his rifles.
He debunked that Big Time. Said it was not true and never was.
Said if any one of his rilfs had a problem shooting solids, he would correct the problem.
Said his son recently shot an elephant using a North Fork Cup Point solid.


Bob Nisbet
Temporarily Displaced Texan
Future Double Rifle Guy (DRSS)



Michael

Peter,

Don't worry I'm working on a .583 2 band 560 grain for you. I have got a 520 already and I will see if I can't make them Henry worthy.

Sam

For DR's those minimal band heavies seem awesome for a no filler load. I love the 3 band design with 100% load density. It seems the lucky bastard 13's can be stable in those slow twist bores. Will Sam be making these "Double Bastard" bullets in 470 and 458 also?
PS. I am still amazed at the power/penetration the 330 barnes offer in the 458 Super Short. It is the mighty mouse of big bores!

Boom stick,

Sent 470 sample off today with 2 bands as I see no need for 3 bands in a bottle neck cartridge. Base of bullet will be at base of neck in a 470NE. I will make all calibers from 9.3 up to test.

Sam

Yes, with the .75" neck of the 470 and the band at the bottom that is an excellent design. Kudos!

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Peter,

Don't worry I'm working on a .583 2 band 560 grain for you. I have got a 520 already and I will see if I can't make them Henry worthy.

Sam

sam

you are the man, the knight of the bastard file

thanks

peter

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Peter, and other Double guys looking about and lurking. I know that Searcy is not a vintage gun, and is modern. I found this down on doubles, where I SOMETIMES LURK, looking around for what folks are saying about bullets, so I can learn! I found this, thought it was worthy of stealing and putting here since we just played with what some or most would consider double safe. I am just a messenger on the doubles, Peter, Sam, Corbin, I rely on their expertise.



Posted Sep 13, 2010 4:37 PM
Just want to share some info:
I was speaking to Mr Searcy today and was asking about some AR scuttlebut I heard/read that it may be unwise to use solids in his rifles.
He debunked that Big Time. Said it was not true and never was.
Said if any one of his rilfs had a problem shooting solids, he would correct the problem.
Said his son recently shot an elephant using a North Fork Cup Point solid.


Bob Nisbet
Temporarily Displaced Texan
Future Double Rifle Guy (DRSS)



Michael

Doc michael

what butch is talking about is new guns with new steels, and i dont see a problem either as long as you are using a driving band bullet of the right size.

what me and sam are talking about is a 1883 master piece from edinbourgh by the double rifle god of them all, alex henry left the london makers in the dust, H&H and purdey were copying him all the time.
the barrels are made of damascus steel which is actually stronger than the fluid steel barrels that were coming along at that time.
but old damascus steel and mono bullets are a very bad cocktail if you dont watch your dim.

cheers

peter

Peter

Oh yes, I realize exactly what you are talking about. Vintage vs Modern. Two totally different animals. With that said, I leave that to the experts, you, Sam, Corbin, others.

Very excited about this #13 in all calibers. Boomy, yes, it is overcoming slow twist without an issue, same as the North Forks in the 470s.

I am coming to the conclusion that actual meplat size, physical size, is of great note, as we see in some photos above, a 67% meplat on a 577 is much larger than a 67% meplat on a .500, and so forth. Breaking point? Something below 458 caliber. For me here, it's 458. 416 is having a tougher time overcoming even a faster twist with the heavier bullets. While 350s and 370s stabilize perfect, 400s are having a rough go of 100% stabilization in 1:14. So I think when you drop below 458 Caliber you have to rely on other factors to assist even a proper meplat size, depending on the bullet weight. If you go with the heavy weights in 416. I think same in other calibers too.

This #13 nose profile, seems to drive extremely straight. Consistently so far. Lot's of test work to do in the future, taking it to 474, 458, 416, and more tests in .500. These will begin next week when prototypes come in from CEB. I might even put some of Sams double rifle bullets #13s in those weird loose barrels I have in the 470 Capsticks, if they shoot in those, they will shoot in anything! While Sam tests regulation and double rifle stuff, I can do terminals in the Capstick and the 510 Wells on the .474s and .510s.

M

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
PS. I am still amazed at the power/penetration the 330 barnes offer in the 458 Super Short. It is the mighty mouse of big bores!

Boom

I am too! Some really big performance in a tiny package. This 330 Barnes combined with the 325 North Fork, really give the 458 B&M Super Short some big performance, and opens options that would other wise not be there.

Bullets--Bullets--Bullets! Nice rifles and cartridges are dandy, but without the right bullets they are just another song and dance! Has to be a combination of the 3! How many good cartridges have died because of a lack of proper bullets?

Look, I had little respect for 577 Nitro, until Saturday! Think about it, I have always had much better performance out of 458s, 500s than any of the big ultra bores. They were not even close. Saturday may have changed all that for these big cartridges! So bullets work both ways, enhance any cartridge, regardless of size!

I must take a photo of the Super Shorts standing in the shadows of a 577 Nitro, that would be cute eh?

M

Michael,

I sent you some 470 3 band bullets for you to try in one of your Crapsticks. It will be interesting to see what happens. It may be easier to stablize a bullet with 2 bands because of less resistance in the bore. Who knows! So far so good.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

I sent you some 470 3 band bullets for you to try in one of your Crapsticks.
Sam

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

I sent you some 470 3 band bullets for you to try in one of your Crapsticks.
Sam

What the hell you laughing at? My Crapsticks are finely crafted "Smooth Bores" that just can't be found around every corner! One must work at getting one of these! Ain't everyday something this fine falls in your lap! Makes for the finest test rifles ever developed, if a solid can stabilize in these, it's because the bullet "self Stabilizes" now that's a hard test for a bullet of any kind!

Laugh all you want!

M

I am not sure if I should be here or down in doubles, but in the bullets ya'll are working on or at North fork would be recomended in a 450/400. I an new to any thing over .338 but was immediately sold on you,re theme from working witn Keith and BFN slugs in handguns.Would it work to drop from the standard 400 gr to 350 or 370 in a solid to match the NF bonded bullets in a double?
Respects

SSR

Maybe a 2.25" Gibs case stuffed with 577 bullets is in your future Michael 585 B&M? 750's @ 2050 and 650's @ 2,150 like factory ammo. Single stack 2 down in a Winchester WSM donor weighing 6.5 Lbs. 18" barrels. I'll be happy to be the testing mule to fire it

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
I am not sure if I should be here or down in doubles, but in the bullets ya'll are working on or at North fork would be recomended in a 450/400. I an new to any thing over .338 but was immediately sold on you,re theme from working witn Keith and BFN slugs in handguns.Would it work to drop from the standard 400 gr to 350 or 370 in a solid to match the NF bonded bullets in a double?
Respects

SSR

Welcome Cross L

Glad to have you. Well I think there are a few double guys that hang around that can answer your concerns better than I can. If you are using a 350-370 North Fork Bonded, then I think it would make good sense that a 350-370 North Fork Solid would be close.

Maybe Sam or Peter can pick up on this for you when they check in. They are the Double Experts here. 500N is pretty good on doubles too, I think? 465HH is a double guy with lot's of experience also, I think.

I can tell you this, you are choosing some damn fine bullets! They will do what you ask of them!

Michael

Cross L,

I think the North Fork is a wonderful bullet and would be fine to shoot in a double. I've never shot one but have a few to try in my 500 Nitro soon.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Maybe a 2.25" Gibs case stuffed with 577 bullets is in your future Michael 585 B&M? 750's @ 2050 and 650's @ 2,150 like factory ammo. Single stack 2 down in a Winchester WSM donor weighing 6.5 Lbs. 18" barrels. I'll be happy to be the testing mule to fire it

Boomy,

You have been talking to either Sam or Corbin on the sly have you not? We were looking at that Saturday thank you! My concerns are the rims, if they can be turned down enough to work in the bolt face? We think maybe yes, I know someone that can turn them down for me too!

Tell you what we will do. Let me sort out the 475s, and get some of these bullet concerns out of the way, I can get a breather, then I will look at it very seriously.

Now, don't let me forget????

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Maybe a 2.25" Gibs case stuffed with 577 bullets is in your future Michael 585 B&M? 750's @ 2050 and 650's @ 2,150 like factory ammo. Single stack 2 down in a Winchester WSM donor weighing 6.5 Lbs. 18" barrels. I'll be happy to be the testing mule to fire it

Boomy,

You have been talking to either Sam or Corbin on the sly have you not? We were looking at that Saturday thank you! My concerns are the rims, if they can be turned down enough to work in the bolt face? We think maybe yes, I know someone that can turn them down for me too!

Tell you what we will do. Let me sort out the 475s, and get some of these bullet concerns out of the way, I can get a breather, then I will look at it very seriously.

Now, don't let me forget????

M

Heh heh heh... Glad my pestering you works
I think it has been almost a year since I have been pushing this one. Yes, you deserve a break. What rim diameter are you thinking? A WSM bolt is .695" right? Maybe go from .635" casehead to .610" rim diameter.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Maybe a 2.25" Gibs case stuffed with 577 bullets is in your future Michael 585 B&M? 750's @ 2050 and 650's @ 2,150 like factory ammo. Single stack 2 down in a Winchester WSM donor weighing 6.5 Lbs. 18" barrels. I'll be happy to be the testing mule to fire it

Boomy,

You have been talking to either Sam or Corbin on the sly have you not? We were looking at that Saturday thank you! My concerns are the rims, if they can be turned down enough to work in the bolt face? We think maybe yes, I know someone that can turn them down for me too!

Tell you what we will do. Let me sort out the 475s, and get some of these bullet concerns out of the way, I can get a breather, then I will look at it very seriously.

Now, don't let me forget????

M

Michael,

No sweat, use the 500 Jeffery case rather than the 505 Gibbs case and your bolt face will be good to go.

As a matter of fact, didn't I send you two 577/585 B&Ms based off the 500 Jeffery case! One for a standard length magazine and one for the SA magazine.

I can resend them if they've been lost.

Was thinking the Jeffery case but at 2.25" was thinking not enough taper. What were your measurements on a loaded case neck and casehead???
A supershort would work no prob with a 1.65ish case. Supershort 650's @ 1600???

quote:

Was thinking the Jeffery case but at 2.25" was thinking not enough taper. What were your measurements on a loaded case neck and casehead???
A supershort would work no prob with a 1.65ish case. Supershort 650's @ 1600???

Here you go:
Case Head: 0.6189"
Case Mouth: 0.607"

Yes it's pretty straight with a difference of only 0.0119" but then the SAAMI specs for the 470 Capstick are only 0.014" (in front of belt to case mouth)...only 0.0021" more than the Jeffry case.

If you can do a 650gr @ 1.23" max length then you should hit around 1900fps in the Super Short from a 16.5" barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Was thinking the Jeffery case but at 2.25" was thinking not enough taper. What were your measurements on a loaded case neck and casehead???
A supershort would work no prob with a 1.65ish case. Supershort 650's @ 1600???

Here you go:
Case Head: 0.6189"
Case Mouth: 0.607"

Yes it's pretty straight with a difference of only 0.0119" but then the SAAMI specs for the 470 Capstick are only 0.014" (in front of belt to case mouth)...only 0.0021" more than the Jeffry case.

If you can do a 650gr @ 1.23" max length then you should hit around 1900fps in the Super Short from a 16.5" barrel.

I assume you meant 2.23" OAL right?

So a 585 supershort will duplicate the 577 2.3/4" tropical load. Interesting... So what you are getting is a bit better than a 3" 12 gauge magnum slug power in a supershort but better SD of .271 similar SD and velocity to a 400 grain 45-70
Interesting... A fat 45-70 would be a thumper!
A flat nose .585 solid in 550 grains would duplicate the SD of the 330 Barnes banded in .458 and the 400 grain of the .500 and those give awesome performance.
Seems there are strong reasons for a supershort AND a 2.25" B&M with 550 grain #13 flat nose solids, 650 and 750 Woodleigh softs. I think we are on to something good. If a .585" 550 grain bastard #13 can penetrate 45" in a supershort and probably 65" in a 2.25" B&M that would be a hammer of thor! The 650 and 750 Woodleighs would be acting well within the functional impact velocity envelopes in both respectively. A 650 grain #13 bastard bullet would be good in the 2.25"
I bet the DR guys would love to have a 550 and 650 grain #13 to play with.

Boomy/Capo

In time, in time. But don't look for a Super Short. Might consider a 2.25 B&M, in the near future. Two things, you know I won't do something that is a real pain in the ass to get to function, and I mean function 100%. Which means retain and feed. Single stack, yes has to be, but not sure how that works myself, and it would be a WSM action, short barrels, 18 inches. Retaining and what has to be done for that to happen is a question. Bolt face, not as big an issue I think. Maybe I try to lay hands on some cases, 505 and 500 Jeff and start cutting down to fit and see what happens---In the near future.

Priority now, 475 B&M and Super Short--and proper bullets to go with these! What's out there won't cut it. So North Fork and B&M has joined forces for FPS--CPS--and Bonded. We will also take the #13 to 474 caliber too, probably a 450 for the 2.25, and a 375 or 400 for the super short. Then brass non cons to match too. Between North Fork and CEB, there will be zero need for the Barnes or others. These bullets will be far superior to anything else out there in .474 regardless. Yes, one can shoot the other stuff for grins and giggles, but other than that the North Forks and CEB will sort everything out in the field!

Next will be the 410 B&M and Mike will be doing that one.

So I get these other things sorted out proper then might consider the mighty 585 B&M, 2 down with big fat #13s! I need a few cases first.

M

My boss has me on cleanup duty all this week! She is having some sort of big tadoo here Saturday night, and I am elected for several cleanup missions! Hopefully I can sneak to the range when she is not looking, I have some tests I need to conduct!



M

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Was thinking the Jeffery case but at 2.25" was thinking not enough taper. What were your measurements on a loaded case neck and casehead???
A supershort would work no prob with a 1.65ish case. Supershort 650's @ 1600???

Here you go:
Case Head: 0.6189"
Case Mouth: 0.607"

Yes it's pretty straight with a difference of only 0.0119" but then the SAAMI specs for the 470 Capstick are only 0.014" (in front of belt to case mouth)...only 0.0021" more than the Jeffry case.

If you can do a 650gr @ 1.23" max length then you should hit around 1900fps in the Super Short from a 16.5" barrel.

I assume you meant 2.23" OAL right?

Boom,
Nope, I did mean 1.23" bullet length...whatever it would end up weighing...(likely closer to 600gr than 650gr)...2.33" cartridge OAL.

Michael,
No sweat...Boomy's going to do the 585 B&M Super Short because he really wants one!

So…585 B&M on a WSM action… Single stack two done + one in the tube should work nicely.
Bolt face: The 505 Gibbs case could be done but leaves little left of the face edge which is why the 500 Jeffery case with its rebated rim would be a better choice… Check out Ed Hubel’s thread…there’s a photograph of the 585 SHE (uses Gibbs case) being held by the extractor on a M98 Mauser bolt…you’d have no more left on a CRF M70 bolt.
Case Capacity: Each cut to 2.25" only results in about 4grs difference of powder capacity, no enough difference from my prospective for the extra milling of the bolt face to accommodate the Gibbs case. Barrel: Anywhere from 16.5” to 18” barrel would be good.

I presume the two Woodleigh’s FMJs shown with Sam’s 725gr .585 #13 are 750gr FMJs, they’re 1.307” length so I’m guessing Sam’s 725gr must be about 1.400” length. The 650gr Woodleigh FMJ is 1.155” in length so a .585 BBW #13 somewhere between 1.23” to 1.300” length would work very nicely in a 585 B&M…leaves plenty of powder capacity.

Oh yeah...watch that house work!!! It can be hazardous to your health.

Lots of exciting things have come about thanks to you Michael. Future musing is fun but yes, have to focus on the job. The short Woodleigh 577 bullets will leave plenty of powder room in a 2.25" case. Experimenting with the 2.25" case first makes the most sense. I hope I get a chance to shoot a 6.5 lb 18" barrel 577 Nitro power gun!

Saeed/Moderators:

This has been a truly interesting, educational and enlightening thread.

Question - is there a way to compile all of this information into a single file that can be periodically updated, compressed and downloaded?

The reason I ask is that some people who have dial-up and/or have to pay a per minute connection fee to access the internet makes it very expensive to spend the time reading through all the previous threads. Case in point many who live in Africa have to use cell phones to connect and very few if any get "free" nights and weekends.

I would love to be able to download a complete file containing all of this info (including the photos and comments) copy it to a disk and mail to my PH and other connection limited friends periodically on a CD.

M3 you have a PM.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I hope I get a chance to shoot a 6.5 lb 18" barrel 577 Nitro power gun!

boomy
i can build you one but you have to promise to shoot it more than once

best

peter

Peter

Don't encourage him! You know what a hard time I have keeping his leash on anyway!

I think I must get one of those "shock Collars" for boomy, every time he gets on a new cartridge for me to work on---ZAP!



HEH

Michael

Have you seen the videos of me shooting?
Gladly!!!!
When should I expect this beauty???!!!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Lots of exciting things have come about thanks to you Michael

OK, I will forget the shock collar for now!

Thank You boomy, kind words will get you a long way!

HEH

Michael