Michael,

Thanks for posting the target. I sent John at North Fork a copy too. Like I told him, I never dreamt that a .458-500 gr solid would shoot so well. Their bullets are very impressive.

That group was the first one I shot today with 81 grains of H-335, apparently a magic number for my barrel. 78 grains works too, but the 81 will obviously be a higher velocity.

I'm for penetration too. After all, this stuff is all prep work for an elephant hunt!

Tom

Tom

You are without doubt on the right path! It appears to be a good year for North Fork, we have our own Austringer that should be in cape buffalo country now, or very soon with the 450 NOrth Fork Bonded, and I think backed with 450 FPS. And Mike is in country now, with his 470 loaded with North Forks, both barrels! So we are awaiting their return and can't wait to hear of their success! As I know it will be successful!

Michael

Good to see a few more good bullets!
Good to see a few Woodleighs worth using!

"... how much internal damage was done on that doe…do you happen to recollect?"

Jim,
I shot from a tree stand at the running doe at 50 yards, quartering away.
The .395/310 S&H brass VeloHex entered under the left kidney and exited the right lower, frontal chest wall.

Smaller than caliber entrance hole, and slightly larger than caliber exit hole.
Laser straight path between.
Chest full of blood, lungs mangled quite well.
The 6 knife-like slivers of brass were lost in the meat and guts.
I finally found one of those six slivers!

My 8 bore boswell round ball 875gn went clean through a bison in ND, 2200 lb right front shoulder through the boiler room and out the left hind 1/4. 4 1/2 ft and that was just the round ball. also shot the 1450gn at a bison and went shoulder to shoulder and out about 100 yards then skipped across the prairie. We will be doing a big test this weekend and testing many more 8 bore loads and 416s, I want to use a 30-06 for a base test like a 180gn factory load so i can compare. Michael what load can i use that i can duplicate a test u have done to make sure our data will correspond. do u use a reference load?
We have the 416 Ruger #1, 8 bore, .577 2 3/4 greener double, 243, 270, 30-06, 458 win mod 70s. I will be at the vintagers in Easton Md 23-26 sept. shooting my 8 bore and maybe the 577 in the stopping event.
We have a ton of this one news paper that has no glossy color, just paper. 50 pages stapled and bundled about 5 inches thick each. Do you have any wood separators or any thing else in the box, that the bullet has to go though or just paper. Also what is the witness paper made from looks like plastic. Thanks I would like to make our test as similar as possible. I am not sure how to upload pics to this site I will try.

8

Please don't mention Round Balls, Boomy may be lurking and he will have me back on a round ball mission!

I use a mix of roughly 30% magazines/catalogs and 70% news print. I started using this mix about 5 yrs ago, because my wife gets about 5-10 inches of catalogs each day in the mail. One day I decided to put it to use in the test medium, mixed it pretty much as stated. Started doing test work and found I was not getting the penetration that I had been getting? I really did not think it would have made that much difference, but it did. Conducting comparisons between the two I found that pretty much as a rule of thumb, whatever percentage of catalogs/magazines I added to the mix, it corresponded with that much less penetration on expanding bullets. About 30% as a rule of thumb.

What I do for comparisons if it is a bullet I have NOT used in the field and have no correlating field data on, then I compare to a bullet I have used. For instance I know what a 500 Swift A and a 450 Swift A do on buffalo, so whatever I get in the mix compared to those I can judge by. If you have used for example; A 250 gr Barnes TSX on elk, and you know how that performs, then if you are looking for an "elk" size bullet, then you can compare with that. Buffalo, same.

Unless you use a mix like I do, then it's going to be a little difficult to compare "Direct" results with mine. What you can do to correlate with my data is this. The last couple of pages are full of 416 bullets, with velocity, depth of penetration and so forth. Since you have a 416 Ruger #1, you might load a few of those bullets, and compare direct with what I am getting. If using straight wet print then most likely you will get a bit more penetration, bullet behavior will be the same. Same with 458s, there are a lot of 458 bullets on the thread, find and look at some of those too. Compression has a bit to do with it, just make sure everything is close to the same compression each test. Dry paper in the mix will also not be good, make sure everything is wet if possible.

The Witness Cards are valuable. At the suggestion of RIP I was able to come up with something that works perfect right from the start. I found some cheap 3 mil laminating sleeves, $10/100, buy two, get one pack free. So 300 sleeves for $20.00. Card stock from Wally World, 150 pack, I think $10 or so too. Takes a bit of time to laminate them, but well worth it in the end. For tracking solids I place the first card 10 inches inside the mix, and every 10 inches until 60 at the end of the box. Placed 1" from the edge of the box they remain even throughout the box, for the most part. 1 card here and there might get a 1/4 off one way or the other when stacking the mix, but it's very close. You can tell. Also this laminate leaves a permanent cavity of the wound channel, so if placed at 4 inches inside the mix for expanding bullets, you will be able to see trauma transfer to target, and have a permanent record of that to file. A bonus I did not expect!

Anything I can help with or questions, let me know, I will do my best!

Michael

RIP

Woodleighs I like;

458 caliber 500 gr round nose soft! Excellent bullet, don't run it fast, 2150 is plenty fast. Good buffalo bullet, little more expansion than Swifts and North Forks, little less penetration too. But still a good bullet.

458 caliber 400 gr PP--very soft bullet, do not exceed 2150 fps max--it will flatten, but keep it under velocity and it is excellent on thin skinned game, lots of trauma transfer, excellent black bear, and that sort of critter bullet.

416 caliber 400 RN Soft. Excellent bullet, would be a great buffalo bullet, does not expand flat like some other woodleighs.

416 caliber 340 PP. Excellent at 2400 fps for thin skinned plains game, lion, that sort of thing, not really a buffalo bullet. Hits hard, transfers a lot of trauma.

Probably lot's of other good Woodleigh softs too that I have not worked with. These are just a few.


If one looks one can find a niche for a bullet depending on it's working velocity and how it performs. While it may fail in one area, it may very well excel in another, it's up to us to choose properly! If we choose poorly, then it might not be the bullets fault, it could be our fault?

M

quote:

If one looks one can find a niche for a bullet depending on it's working velocity and how it performs. While it may fail in one area, it may very well excel in another, it's up to us to choose properly! If we choose poorly, then it might not be the bullets fault, it could be our fault?

Above by Michael458.

Probably the best overall statement in this long long thread!

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

If one looks one can find a niche for a bullet depending on it's working velocity and how it performs. While it may fail in one area, it may very well excel in another, it's up to us to choose properly! If we choose poorly, then it might not be the bullets fault, it could be our fault?

Above by Michael458.

Probably the best overall statement in this long long thread!

465H&H

465HH

Well Thank You, I think?

I am happy that after 93 pages of this that Finally you got something worthwhile out of the project! It took long enough eh?

I suppose we can all go home now, mission accomplished!




Michael

Michael,

Don't get your ruff up. I said it was the best post not the only valuable one. I have picked up a lot of useful info here.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Michael,

Don't get your ruff up. I said it was the best post not the only valuable one. I have picked up a lot of useful info here.

465H&H

I already told you once this week that I quit taking my meds!!!!! You know what that means!



HEH

Serious, thank you! Every once and awhile I can even retain something!

J-H-C---I have to go and make up two new boxes of test medium this afternoon! Corbin is dropping by for a little visit in the morning, bringing 500 lbs of print, and I have some test work lined up for tomorrow anyway. Since we have been on 416 some this week I want to take a very hard look at the 370 North Fork FPS. I think it may be the new ticket for my 416 B&Ms.

I have a bunch of 458 Super Shorts loaded, we may even put some of those in the box and see what happens, that is such a neat little gun, let me show you a photo of some of those little 458s!



I no longer have any use at all for a 45/70. Already have one for sale, 5 guide guns hit the rack to build 50 B&M Alaskans out of and I will be down to only 4-5 45/70s left to sit on the rack and draw dust.

M

465HH

We got a guy on the other thread here that wants to build a 20 lb 408 Cheytec double rifle? How about you help him with that?

I think I would rather take that 6.5 lb 458 Super Short and those 330 Barnes Banded myself!

HEH

M

I sure got a chuckle out of that post. He has a good sense of humour.

I think your formula has merit as long as you don't try to shoot anything bigger than an impala. I suspect penetration might be a problem on larger animals. How many times have I told you that penetration is everything?


465H&H

But "H", look at that little "cute" 458! Itty Bitty Solid, I may have to see what that does on old buff one day, of course I will put one of those NF-CPS thru him first to get his attention, then just start hammering him with those itty bitty solids! That don't work, I beat him in the head with a rock! Then climb the nearest tree!

HEH HEH

Hey, see that 400 Woodleigh PP on the left of the photo? This is a great bullet, but you sure got to stay within it's velocity limits. Speaking of impala, back around 2004 or so, maybe 2003, can't really remember, but I had a 458 Lott in Zim, I was running this 400 PP at a tad over 2500 fps. Yes, I had tested, but I really didn't look at penetration that much, I should have. I am smarter today. Shot a really nice impala at 130 yds, right up the rear, made a new hole for him there. So help me god, I watched as the impala seemed to explode in the rear, looked like he blew up inside, but did not burst. Down on the spot of course. Problem was, he was very much alive when I got to him. That bullet had expanded so much that it did not reach the vitals. It was ugly, and to be honest I was a bit sad over the affair. I came back from that and went to work until I got down to around a working muzzle velocity of 2100-2150 fps MAX.

This little 458 runs that 400 at 1975 fps, so that might just about be perfection with that 400 Woodleigh PP!

Now if I had been using that 325 North Fork CPS, well.........I suppose the bullet would have ending up in Zambia, or Namibia, or somewhere else, I don't quite recall the direction I was shooting to?

Thanks for the reminder, 100% absolutely YES--Penetration is Everything!

Excellent!

Hey, need that garage cleaned out yet? Well, I have been busy again, kinda straightened up the room just off the range at my 50 yd bench. Used to be Gun Lab #1, then it turned into a storage room with the new gun lab. Then it turned into a big mess, and now I have turned it into Gun Lab #2, and sorta storage room. It's coming along, and I am getting rid of lot's of stuff out of the #1 Lab!




Could use some dusting, mopping, and cleaning up a bit!

Michael

Anyone with a garage that organized has a severe mental problem!

465h&H

I agree! He's got the cleanest place I've ever seen. I won't invite Michael to come see Bastard Bullet Works because it looks like one of those hoarding shows.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Anyone with a garage that organized has a severe mental problem!

465h&H

Hey, I used to care, but I take a pill for that now!

hey 458 we are going to test the 416 A frame and hornady DG solid this week end. plus i cast and turned a few bullets for the 8 bore, made a 1450gn Round nose out of wheel weights instead of soft lead, then made some 1600s that i turned down a 75% flat nose with 15 degree tappered sides like most of the solids out there, that now weight 1450gn. apples to apples. then a 75 % flat nose 1650gn and a 1785gn round nose, ouch!!!!!! should be iteresting.

8

That will be good, we have not tested or worked with the Hornady DGS in 416 here. Just 458, 470, and 510 I think. Do report back on that.

Corbin and Sam are pitching up here this morning. I have a few things planned, but Sam may have something in the works too. We will see. I made up two new boxes of material yesterday afternoon to be ready.

It will be interesting to see the results of those really big bullets you have there!


Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
EZ and Tanzan

Since both of you have interests in 416 I will address the two of you! I almost expected this with the 350 Barnes TSX. As we know from prior work, more velocity give some less depth in penetration with the Barnes TSX bullets. That's exactly what happened here at close range, 22 yds impact. So remember that, as ranges get further out, then of course velocity bleeds off and performance gets better. We have been using this bullet a lot in the 416 B&M at lower velocity of 2400-2450 fps, and getting great performance at this velocity. My boys have taken oryx, kudu, pigs and other things, others have used it on zebra, eland, kudu, and much more, all with incredible success, giving at least 3 ft or so of penetration in animal tissue.





If that velocity bleeds off a bit, penetration will increase as it does with the 416 B&M.




It's been one of my favorites for the 416 B&M and I would not hesitate using it on old buff.

M

Thank you for this. Much appreciated. Now with only 15" penetration and loading up the 350gr TSX to even higher velocity (2700-2750) I'm going to see if I can't recover a bullet this year. Pray for 3/4 angled shots.

And if I can get these going fast enough maybe they'll just bounce off an eland or buff with internal liquification?

Tanzan

Liquification, Smart Ass! LOL. Kidding buddy! Funny. Hit like a freight train, turn them to jelly eh. Might?

Very welcome. I am a big fan of this particular bullet. We have only used it in the 416 B&M at 2400-2450 fps, and performance is excellent. Of course you note where penetration will of course increase at longer range, this was tested at 22 yds along with the others. As you know, and have pointed out, double 15 for 30 in animal tissue, and that pretty much totally penetrates most species, if impact is at higher velocity, if so, so will trauma be higher too.

Friend of mine used the 350 Barnes on everything from eland to impala, recovered a few and sent to me and reported from 32-36 inches of penetration at various distances. Not too bad! More than enough of course.



Had Sam and Corbin on the range today, they are turning into excellent range help! Still can't leave them too long unsupervised yet, they do get in trouble, but I think they are going to work out pretty good in the end!

We did some really good things today, some really stand out. Don't look for posts until tomorrow at earliest however, it takes some time to put it together and record the data. One of the OUTSTANDING tests today however had to do with 577 Nitro! Once again, #13 rolls in BIG. A 725 gr #13 Nose profile drove the deepest of any big bore above .500 caliber that I have ever seen, ever, and 100% Dead straight line penetration to boot! Never has a 577 penetrated so deep and so straight as these did. Extraordinary to say the least. So good in fact, that this is going to be replicated in .510 caliber as quickly as possible, samples sent to CEB for prototypes, and hopefully if all falls in place Sam with be using this same #13 Profile on a big bull elephant very soon in his 500 Nitro. Data coming soon!

Sam was kind enough to hollow base a 570 .510 caliber Woodleigh Round Nose FMJ for us! Will the hollow base overcome the round nose FMJ and stabilize it?

Some more 9.3 work. Several bullets tested in the 458 B&M Super Short too. How deep will a 330 gr Barnes Banded Solid at 2215 fps at the muzzle penetrate? Straight? Enough for buffalo? Elephant??????? How about the 325 North Fork CPS in the 458 B&M Super Short--is it enough for buffalo?

Wow, some interesting tests today, will get them up as soon as I can!

Thanks Sam and Corbin for all the help today!

Michael

The anticipation hurts so good!!!

Ok, I am not going to torment any more than I have too. I have a few minutes, I must tell you about this #13 nose profile from BBW, Our Own Sam R. It had the #13 nose profile of course, set deep into the 577 Nitro case, base of the bullet on top of a lot of RL 15, NO WADs, Sam designed the bands so the bullet sits low in the case. Two bands top and bottom only. 725 gr brass solid, 67% meplat.

This bullet penetrated deeper than ANY BIG BORE BULLET above .500 caliber that we have ever tested, ever. A total of 71 inches dead 100% straight line, witness cards to 60 inches to prove it, along with placing the #1 10 in card over the bullets where they stopped, 100% straight all the way.

This #13 nose profile may be about the most incredible nose profile I have ever worked with. It is proven now in my .500s, now in 577 Nitro, and Sam is busy making a .510 sample right now so we can get it up to CEB to make prototypes. I sent the #13 samples this past week in .500 for a 500 gr version for the 50 B&M and 500 MDM, and a 425 gr version for the 50 B&M AK lever guns. Sam wants a .510 caliber version, 550 or 570 for his 500 Nitro.

I know crap about doubles, so I am not qualified to speak, but according to Sam and Corbin, this bullet is more than safe, with 2 bands it has little bearing surface. The prototypes will be copper and with 3 bands, two at the top, and a very long space in between, and a band at the base. Bearing surface, size, and construction would seem to be all important in double rifles, these have to be safer than that damn very very long bearing surface steel insert woodleigh FMJ. All one has to do is look at the engraving to realize that, that even for someone like myself with no real knowledge of doubles would be a no brainer!

I tell you, this is incredible! Excited? Yep, you betcha, this is exciting! I can't wait to get my #13 prototypes in .500! Yet another bullet to add to the vast tool box of "Super Bullets"!

I might have one now that will top this! Sam made a prototype .500 that weighs 540 grs. I figure 2250 maybe 2275 out of the 500 MDM, this just might surpass 71 inches??? I will find out this week!


Michael

I think Michael only left Corbin and I so he could swallow a beer when we weren't looking!

Had I great time shooting today and as aways learned a lot. I think everyone will be interested in what was done today. Amazing what a small change in nose profile has a LARGE impact in how the bullet performs!!!!

I've seen it for myself and can't wait to see Michael's written results to know I wasn't dreaming!

Thanks Michael for all your hard work!

Sam

Sam and Michael,

I can only hope that you are working on a .620 diameter 2 or 3-band #13 (always been my lucky number).

Amazing body of work, guys!

Paul,

I don't think Michael or myself has a .620 gun. The .583 bullet could be made in .620 easily.

Maybe Michael should build a 577 and 600 B&M for his model 70's. 750 and 900 grain bullets out of a 6.5 lb 18 inch gun should be exciting!

Sam

Greetings and Good Morning!

Let me address replies from last night first before getting started. Sam, you know I shoot better the more beer I drink, you know this already!

We did learn a lot, and further study into double rifle bullets, and even more important to me personally is the BBW #13 nose profile. This is large!

Paul

Ain't nothing to it, .620 can be done just as easy as .583-.584 or what ever that number is, and of course my beloved .500.

Sam made a few other #13s for me to work with, and I will be speaking with CEB Monday first thing to see when I can get the first run of CNC prototypes in for the .500. Extensive tests from there. Sam is sending direct samples of a .510 caliber and we will have prototypes run on that for testing. Once we get thru this and all seems to carry forward, then we can start doing this bullet in other calibers. I am interested in 458 myself and .474 for the new 475 B&Ms. A .620 or other caliber would not be an issue I don't think. Copper or brass, multi bands or 2-4 bands. Very exciting this #13.

Michael

First some of the more mundane things out of the way!

Well we made 1 last final attempt to straighten out a Woodleigh FMJ bullet and see if we could stabilize it. As you know we looked at some Hollow Base bullets that stirred a bit of a confusion last week I think. Sam decided we would try to Hollow Base a .510 caliber, 570 Woodleigh FMJ and see if it was possible to stabilize it with a Hollow Base, putting weight forward?



Well, as good as our intentions were, it failed of course. Regardless of what is done to the base, it seems the "Nose Still Does The Driving" during terminals.






Honest to god, I have no clue in todays world why anyone would use such a bullet! I don't care what you use, it is no skin off my ass what you do one way or the other. I don't care that these sort of bullets have killed a million elephants and buffalo the last hundred years! It's 2010, we have made progress and continue to do so. In another 100 yrs if there are any bullets at all then, shooters will look on this design the same we we look at round balls and muzzle loaders today. Yes, it is a pure 100% fact that this outdated nose/bullet design does better in animal tissue than it does in this test medium. It is supposed to be that way people! That is the point of testing, to find the point at which one design works, and the other does not! If it is successful in the test work--It will be successful in the field--I have done it too many times to prove this to myself. If it fails the test--Yes the "POTENTIAL" is there for it to fail in the field. Since I very rarely take failures of the tests to the field I really can't report on many failures, but the proof is there by others on occasion. Give it another generation, and the end of the round nose solid is well within sight!

Michael

Now moving onward.

I had several bullets that I wanted to test yesterday too. I had another run of 9.3 270 CEBs to run. They did well, excellent straight into around 50+ inches, then they would loose some stability at that point. For what I want with 9.3 and a lighter bullet for this will be more than adequate for now and I have approved this run of bullets as is at 260 grs. When the run comes in, I will start testing these again.

I had a test set up for the 370 North Fork FPS in 416 B&M, which I think is going to be my future 416 B&M solid from now on. We did not get to it, I will work it this week.

I had several loads I wanted to test specifically in the new little 458 B&M SUper Short, we did manage to get some of that done.

Here is a new little 300 gr Nosler Ballistic tip designed as the box says for 45/70.



Well many would call this a failure, but not I. It's designed to do this, it might work a bit better at less velocity that a 45/70 can produce, yes, but still it's our fault if we choose bullets poorly. This would be very excellent in many areas of operation. No, not a buffalo bullet, lighter, thinner skinned game this would be absolutely devastating, and a better choice in many cases than a heavier constructed bullet! Depends on the mission at hand! Deer comes to mind to me.
M

I had a run of these 305 gr Brass HPs done a few months ago in anticipation of the 458 B&M Super Short, and in 45/70. We tested in 45/70 and got good results, as good as one can expect.

The 458 Super Short made this one come to life!



As normal, penetration is excellent for these brass non cons. Much more so than conventional bullets. Trauma transfer is as good as can be expected, can't ask for much more.

One of the bullets that is very important to me and the 458 B&M Super Short is the new 330 Barnes Banded Solid. Such a perfect fit for this cartridge. It is a hell of a little bullet. Tested in 458 B&M at velocities much higher, tested even in a 1885 single shot 45/70 with a poor twist rate it performed excellent also. Once again, I can 't possibly ask for better performance! This is truly extraordinary for such a small package!



I would by far choose this over some other much larger useless designs!

How about a 325 gr North Fork CPS in the 458 Super Short??? Well, this bullet combined with the 330 Barnes Banded puts the 458 Super Short in another class altogether as far as I am concerned! Incredible performance, far beyond anything I would have imagined possible just a very short time ago.

Some years ago I was on a mission for buffalo with a Marlin Guide in 45/70. Yep, killed the buffalo, but it almost turned into an issue, shooting a 420 Cast Performance at 1850 fps! It was about as good as it got at the time, but still regardless, actually a poor choice in comparison to what can be done today with a proper designed bullet. I probably had velocity too high for the bullet too, which did not help any. Today if I was doing that again, I would be doing it with a 325 or 350 North Fork CPS. Of course that's me, you do what you wish!

I simply must at some point in life take this little 458 Super Short and do just that mission!

In-f......-credible

725 grs and 71 inches. Nice!!

I need that design Sam... Impossible to buy bullets from the US but I have a friend who can control a CNC lathe...
Will make them in true .585" diameter over the bands for my rifle though.. And preferably a 750 grs minimum. Think of driving those at 2580-2600 fps Might break the 100" barrier

Might also have some 500 grainers made in .458" with the same nose profile for my 458 AccRel

TRULY IMPRESSIVE work guys - to say the least.
Thanks a lot..


Ulrik

Ulrik,

I'm in the process of changing the design of this bullet to make it a little more load friendly. The bullet was made to be loaded with RL-15 with no wads or fillers. I'm going to change the bands so it can also be loaded with a couple of other powders with no wads or fillers. Not your conventional looking bullet and some may not like the looks of it but it sure performs nice. Right now I'm putting my work into a .510 diameter for my 500 nitro. After I get this shape the way I want it I will do the same for the 577 and any other double caliber. When I get it figured out I will be glad to send you drawings.

Sam

And now for the Grand Finally of yesterdays work.

Well, we all know how the BBW #13s have been testing the last few weeks. I was so very impressed with the 506 BBW #13 bullet in .500 caliber I sent samples to CEB for new prototypes in brass at 500 grs with 67% meplat. Again, taking the same #13 and cutting it down 425 grs, putting bands higher on the nose so that I can use it in the Marlin Lever guns in .500 caliber.

Sam brought some loads with a #13 for his 577 Nitro Double. Bullet weighs 725 grs in brass. Two bands, very low bearing surface, according to Sam, double expert as far as I am concerned, double safe and he will use it in all of his doubles. So there. Personally I didn't expect more than normal, maybe a little better because of the nose profile. But regardless no mega bore, above .500 caliber has ever exited the box, most all coming in at 50-55 inches if they were REALLY GOOD. Many coming in with large meplats 35-45 inches.

Bullet #1 fired, 2060 fps at the muzzle. Down to reposition the box so that it is straight for #2. Sam states, pass thru. No way! I don't believe it! I have to look for myself! Sure enough, bullet exited 64 inches of medium, into box #2. Never happened before with anything above .500 or .510. NEVER. Fluke? Anomaly? Probably! #2 fired, time to go to work. It too exits box #1 into box #2? OK, maybe it's not an anomaly?

Tracking the bullet with 6 Witness Cards all at 10 inch intervals the bullets traveled 100% dead straight line all the way through. Found the bullets at 70 and 71 inches, put the #1 10 inch witness card in the proper position and found these bullets had traveled the entire distance of 70-71 inches 100% dead straight line penetration and was in perfect position at the end! Totally INF*&KingCredible! That's as best I can explain it!

Now I don't have a 577 myself, and most likely I never see one in my future unless Winchester can be stamped on it somewhere, but I was very excited about this, still am very excited about this. Now tested in two different calibers the nose profile proves out to be excellent and consistent. It is incredibly stable so far. I will have better ideas about it when the prototypes come in, but I am pretty well convinced right now we have stumbled onto something incredible.

I place this nose profile far and above the Barnes Banded Profile. And you guys know I like and place high regards on the Barnes Profile, look above you at the 330 458 caliber bullet, and all the others I have used in the field too! I think this #13 is a better nose profile and will give more consistent results over a wide variety of calibers, weights and velocity!

So I am very excited about this, and if it continues down this path when the prototypes arrive I will be making an order of these in .500 caliber for sure. Then we can take it to other calibers easy for prototypes. Looking at a 3 band for doubles in copper.

Take a look!





Now as stated many times in the past and again now, I have no real knowledge of doubles, I don't own one, probably will never own one, I appreciate them, and have nothing against or for them at all. But always the issue about shooting this bullet or that bullet and doing damage to the barrels. I don't think that's quite as much of an issue with todays modern doubles as the old ones. Maybe if I had an old one, I might not even shoot it at all for fear of damage, and have a modern one for working and shooting.

I know if I had concerns about damage to a barrel I believe it would be rather self revealing which of these would be safer to shoot, and especially if one had a steel liner inside to attempt to keep it from deforming????? But don't take my word, I am no expert and claim NO EXPERTISE in this matter at all. And then take this brass bullet to copper????



Michael

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
After I get this shape the way I want it I will do the same for the 577 and any other double caliber. When I get it figured out I will be glad to send you drawings.
Sam

Sounds very good Sam. Thanks..


Ulrik

Very great testing guys!!

Michael ,
Did Sam’s .584 725gr BBW #13 Br FN 69% Meplat show similar trauma transfer to the #1 and #2 (10") witness cards as did the .500 506gr BBW #13 Br FN 67% Meplat bullets?

Sam's BBW #13 FN 66%-69% Meplat Solids reign supreme!!!

Jim

No, there was not as much trauma inflicted to the cards as with the 50 B&M??? I just checked again, while trauma is good, it's not as much. I suspect velocity? The 506 hit about a 100 fps more than the 577.

Yes, they are supreme. I am extremely excited about these.

Michael

Hi i just got done shooting my 8 bore Boswell today at a wet paper penetration box.. we tested the 1450 conical with Fn 75% meplat wheel weight alloy at 1375fps went 32" in wet paper. It still had a little deformation but only lost 18gn. Then i tested th same 1450 in round nose and it went in 42" and exited out the side because the box was not straight, and it was laying on the table at 52" like someone set it there! Looked like it went straight. but ran out of time and paper. the 416 today did well 400gn swift A frame did 21" and looked impressive. we are going to do the 416 solid this week. and retest all the 8 bore loads to reprove the results. i may modify my nose agian to see if any thing changes. the 8 bore FN @ 32" beat the soft Rn from last week 26 1/2" but the hard RN looked even better but it was out the side in non packed paper for a little while and will have to be retested it was basicly done when it fell out at 42" as it only went 12" more in the air!It had no deformation and only lost 6gn of its 1450!

Ok…so impact velocity affects the #13’s trauma transfer. That makes sense. I suspect that without the extra velocity that the #13’s trauma transfer will be equal to the Barnes nose profile trauma transfer.

Now off to another topic…well not really another topic…just another thing… Looking at the depth progression by weight progression of Sam’s BBW #13 bullets, I predict that a .500 530gr-535gr BBW #13 Br FN 67% Meplat will match or slightly exceed the 70.5” average depth run of his .584 725gr bullet.

Though perhaps Hollow Basing the 506gr BBW #13 FN 67% Meplat…I think that would be approximately a 425gr BBW #13 HB FN 67% Meplat…at 2200fps or so impact velocity would equal or exceed Sam’s .584 725gr BBW #13 FN solid as well!

Though I’d throw this into the mix; it’s kind of a summary of the past 7 or 8 pages:
Current Sam/BBW Prototype Bullets:
FN Brass Monometal:
.500 360gr BBW (BBN) HB FN 67% Meplat = 44 Inches Penetration [X1 – 50 B&M – 2204fps MV – 22yd Impact @ No Reading] (dead straight)
.500 360gr BBW (BBN) HB FN 69% Meplat = 50 Inches Avg. Penetration [X2 – 50 B&M – 2248fps MV – 22yd Impact @ 2156fps](dead straight)
.500 429gr BBW (BBN) FN 65% Meplat = 45.5 Inches Avg. Penetration [X2 – 50 B&M – 2182fps MV – 22yd Impact @ 2099fps](dead straight)
.500 493gr BBW (SAM) FN 65% Meplat = 63 Inches Avg. Penetration [X2 – 50 B&M – 2185fps MV – 22yd Impact @ 2122fps](dead straight)
.500 506gr BBW (#13) FN 67% Meplat = 66 Inches Avg. Penetration [X2 – 50 B&M – 2164fps MV – 22yd Impact @ 2105fps](dead straight)
.584 725gr BBW (#13) FN 69% Meplat = 71.5 Inches Avg. Penetration[X2 – 577 NE – 2064fps MV – 22yd Impact @ 2012fps](dead straight)
HP Brass Monometal:
.500 435gr BBW HP Spitzer = 23 Inches Avg. Penetration (X2 – 50 B&M – 2321fps MV – 45yd Impact @ 2191fps - 378gr Avg. Retained Weight)
.500 435gr BBW HP Spitzer = 26 Inches Penetration (X1 – 50 B&M – 2553fps MV – 45yd Impact @ 2380fps – 364gr Retained Weight)

JDJ Profile Test Series Prototype Bullets:
FN Brass Monometal:
.500 456gr BBW (#12.5) FN 62% Meplat = 57.5 Inches Avg. Penetration [X2 – 50 B&M – 2194fps MV – 22yd Impact @ 2116fps] (1 – 1” off course)
.500 488gr BBW (#13) FN 66% Meplat (Sharp Edge) = 63 Inches Avg. Penetration [X2 – 50 B&M – 2178fps MV – 22yd Impact @ 2110fps](dead straight)
.500 462gr BBW (#15) FN 65% Meplat = 57 Inches Avg. Penetration [X2 – 50 B&M – 2175fps MV – 22yd Impact @ 2110fps](dead straight)
.500 462gr BBW (#17.5) FN 65% Meplat = 58 Inches Avg. Penetration [X2 – 50 B&M – 2174fps MV – 22yd Impact @ 2114fps](dead straight)

Current CEB Prototype Bullets:
FN Brass Monometal:
.500 400gr CEB (BBN) FN 68% Meplat = 43.5 Inches Avg. Penetration [X4 – 50 B&M SS – 2022fps MV – 22yd Impact @ 1937fps](dead straight)
.500 510gr CEB (BBN) FN 68% Meplat = 58.75 Inches Avg. Penetration [X8 – 50 B&M – 2136fps MV – 22yd Impact @ No Reading] (3 lost stability & off course last few inches)

Current North Fork Bullets:
FN Copper Monometal:
.500 375gr NF FPS 71% Meplat = 42.5 Inches Avg. Penetration [X4 – 50 B&M – 2050fps MV – 22yd Impact @ 1965fps] (dead straight)
.500 450gr NF FPS 71% Meplat = 53 Inches Avg. Penetration [X4 – 50 B&M – 2113fps MV – 22yd Impact @ 2127fps]
CP Copper Monometal:
.500 375gr NF CPS 71% Meplat = 23 Inches Avg. Penetration [X4 – 50 B&M SS – 2126fps MV – 22yd Impact @ 2050fps]
.500 450gr NF CPS 71% Meplat = 31.5 Inches Avg. Penetration [X4 – 50 B&M – 2257fps MV – 22yd Impact @ 2193fps]

Existing Lehigh Inventory:
FN Limited Penetration Monometal:
.500 451gr SST (JDJ) FN 67% Slotted Meplat = 28 Inches Penetration [500 MDM – 2415fps MV – 20yd Impact @ 2342fps] (dead straight)
.500 451gr SST (JDJ) FN 67% Slotted Meplat = 40 Inches Penetration [50 B&M – 2142fps MV – 50yd Impact @ No Reading] (dead straight)
.500 455gr SST (JDJ) FN 67% Meplat = 56 Inches Penetration [50 B&M – 2112fps MV – 50yd Impact @ No Reading] (dead straight)
FN Copper Monometal:
.500 510gr SST (BBN) FN 66% Meplat = 62 Inches Penetration [50 B&M – 2025fps MV – 22yd Impact @ No Reading](dead straight)
.500 510gr SST (BBN) FN 66% Meplat = 63 Inches Penetration [500 MDM – 2113fps MV – 22yd Impact @ 2127fps](dead straight)
.500 550gr SST (BBN) FN 66% Meplat = 65 Inches Penetration [500 MDM – 2205fps MV – 22yd Impact @ No Reading] (unstable last 2”)
HP Copper Monometal:
.500 426gr SST HP = 14 Inches Penetration [ 50 B&M – 2212fps MV – 47yd Impact @ No Reading – 426gr Avg. Retained Weight]
.500 470gr SST HP = 23.5 Inches Avg. Penetration [500 MDM – 2409fps MV – 20yd Impact @ 2352fps – 356.5gr Avg. Retained Weight]
Note: Unfortunately digging through the data I was unable to identify a bullet box test of the 470gr SST HP from the 50 B&M.

Legend:
#13 – Sam’s Modified JDJ FN Profile
BBN – Barnes’ FN Profile
JDJ = JDJ 15º-17º Nose Profile
SAM – Sam’s FN Profile

Certainly some darn good bullets these! It's almost too difficult to wait for the CEB prototypes of Sam’s bullets to arrive so that you can demonstrate to use just how well Dan has worked the bullets. It’s a darn good time to have a true 500 caliber rifle! (Or at least one in the making!)

quote:

Originally posted by 8gauge:
Hi i just got done shooting my 8 bore Boswell today at a wet paper penetration box.. we tested the 1450 conical with Fn 75% meplat wheel weight alloy at 1375fps went 32" in wet paper. It still had a little deformation but only lost 18gn. Then i tested th same 1450 in round nose and it went in 42" and exited out the side because the box was not straight, and it was laying on the table at 52" like someone set it there! Looked like it went straight. but ran out of time and paper. the 416 today did well 400gn swift A frame did 21" and looked impressive. we are going to do the 416 solid this week. and retest all the 8 bore loads to reprove the results. i may modify my nose agian to see if any thing changes. the 8 bore FN @ 32" beat the soft Rn from last week 26 1/2" but the hard RN looked even better but it was out the side in non packed paper for a little while and will have to be retested it was basicly done when it fell out at 42" as it only went 12" more in the air!It had no deformation and only lost 6gn of its 1450!

Hey 8

Seems if you are starting to get deformation at 1375 fps you may get more deformation with more velocity, penetration will decrease.

400 Swift A at 21 inches is roughly the same as what I get too.

Might want to decrease the 75% meplat, down to 65% or so, can you do that? Penetration I think will increase and still remain straight at the same velocity.

Michael