458 B&M 2.24"
Nominal 45-70 bullets .45" tip to crimp
2.69" minimum oal.
Why would this not fit in a BLR?

The 22 non con will be fun to watch
Can we have the nail clippers ready to shorten the post if needed?
Also any way to get the 22 tips to come more to a point? Thinking of the higher BC.
Thanks for always putting on a great show Michael !

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
458 B&M 2.24"
Nominal 45-70 bullets .45" tip to crimp
2.69" minimum oal.
Why would this not fit in a BLR?

Hey Boomy…I’m moving this over to the other thread – Michael has already moved today’s discussion over there as well.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

We will be looking at a 223 BBW#13 NonCon! And with some tips as well. Not big bore, but maybe we should not tell the bullet that, you know, "Caliber Complex", so please don't mention anything about it being small, or tiny, comments like that. It thinks it's big! So...........

M

Been thinking about the difference in what a 50 accomplishes and what a 223 accomplishes. If we get good penetration out of the 223 then the biggest differences are?
The size of the wound channel and resulting bleeding when using a NonCon.
The size of the wound channel and resulting bleeding when using a #13 soild
The damage done to any organ.
Other?

The answers are different whether a NonCon or a #13 solid but the questions are the same:
Will the lungs colapse from a 223 hit?
Will the brain stop functioning from a 223 hit? Will the heart be able to keep functioning after a 223 hit?
Will the 223 be able to break a shoulder?
Will the 223 be able to snap the nerve in the neck or back bone?
Other?

If not, where is the lower end on caliber for adequate performance on DG using a NonCon or #13 solid?

Didn't a famous Ivory hunter use a 275?

Given NonCons and the #13 solid do we give the green light to ???? as a DG caliber

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Now back to bullets! I have some interesting things that have been thrown into this shipment of .458s I am getting, I suppose tomorrow now.

We will be looking at a 223 BBW#13 NonCon! And with some tips as well. Not big bore, but maybe we should not tell the bullet that, you know, "Caliber Complex", so please don't mention anything about it being small, or tiny, comments like that. It thinks it's big! So...........

Might be a few 338 caliber 225 gr BBW#13 NonCons in this package as well? Hmmmmm?

I also have some of those very pointy, very long CEB 338 caliber copper bullets I promised to try out too, but just have not got to those yet. With the BBW#13s coming, then do both at once.

Now what do I test these in? We have old standby, 338 Winchesters, short ones, 338 WSM, skinny ones, 338/06, big daddy, 338 Ultra? Hmmmm?

New tips coming as well I think, the new stud configuration I showed you above.

Oh, and 465HH, thank you, very nice compliment, I will try an not let it go to my head! LOl..

And of course RIP for backing you up on the nice comment about the photos. Not sure which one you are talking about, or just in general. But thanks!

M

1 vote for 338WSM i love the 338s and the WSM would make a sweet mate for my 416 B&M





SSR

Testing at top velocity is important to the testing. 338 Ultra is close to the Lapua so I'd shoot for top loads in the 338 ultra with tips on the non con. Then load down and use 338-06 for minimum functional impact velocity testing.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Testing at top velocity is important to the testing. 338 Ultra is close to the Lapua so I'd shoot for top loads in the 338 ultra with tips on the non con. Then load down and use 338-06 for minimum functional impact velocity testing.

All the 338's are widely used, especially the old 338 WM. High velocity Lapua, low velocity Federal and -06 are all useful.

Gentlemen,
My sincerest apologies for the off-topic items above. Will go to the thread Michael has indicated. However, will still be here for bullets only.
Max

Max, no apologies needed pal! We go off topic sometimes and that is not an issue, it gets back around, no worries.

I tell you, life here is a mad house sometimes. Mondays are normally a little rough. But I get started early most days, and can have a good bit done by mid morning. Sometimes leaves me time to do other things. Monday I thought I would load up some of the 62 gr BBW#13s and run them through a couple rifles for accuracy and just mess around a bit. Problem is, many months ago I cleaned out the "Main Lab", moved a bunch of things out to "Lab#2" just off the range. I took out everything that was not a B&M, including two Dillons set up for handguns, and 223. I have not really set up Lab#2 to do anything serious, most of the things I do remain in the Main Lab. I decided I needed to get going out there, so I would go out, do a bit of setting up, need something from the Main Lab, come in, get it, get trapped on the phone or tied up with business. This repeated all day long Monday. End of the day, I finally had 5 rounds of 223 loaded with the BBW#13s! All day long--5 rounds! Pitiful! Tuesday I thought to shoot those, but could not get around to that either! This work thing is really getting in the way of progress!

Michael

Good Morning Gents! I have been busy the last few days working on some things, one of which was for Dan and the Boys with the 223 BBW#13 NonCon. While not a big bore no doubt, it thinks it is. It wants to be like it's bigger brothers, but do keep in mind, it ain't no buffalo bullet, and you are not going to turn a 223 into a heavy hitter, no matter how good it is! So get any thoughts of that out of your minds right now! While this is a hell of a bullet for 223, it is still a 223 and will always be a 223 and will always be limited to what a 223 can do. This does expand and enhance the cartridge, as I suspected it would, but that don't make it a heavy hitter, have to had DIAMETER and WEIGHT for that work period! So here we go, will share this with you with those thoughts in mind! Then we will move to something a little bigger maybe over the weekend.



I gave the little bullet a good workout this week. Starting with 3 different impact velocities to see how and what it does at higher, and lower velocity impacts.

First is the higher velocity impact.

Good penetration for a tiny little bullet, on par with some of it's bigger cousins up to some medium bores. On the higher velocity blades hung a little tighter and did not shear until about 3 inches. Sheared perfect, and in a star pattern. However they did not move very far from center, 1-1.5 inches max. Because they are lighter than the big bore blades they can't get that momentum going. Velocity and slicing took them to 6-8 inches however, but close to wound channel also. There was a lot of trauma going on here with the medium. Nothing like the big bores, but much better than any 223 I have tested. Looking at about an 1 inch diameter wound channel starting at 3 inches, going to about 6-7 inches before tapering down. The last inch of penetration these loose stability and turn sideways.




The next velocity tested is around 500 fps less than above. A pretty big jump downward. These sheared a bit more like the bigger bores, at 2 inches the blades had sheared, still hugging close to the center wound channel, but not enough velocity to carry them further than 5 inches. Trauma to medium still good, total penetration of the remaining 33 gr slug, slightly less, as expected.



A little closer shot to show you what these look like.



Once again I dropped the velocity down a bit to 2100 fps, 300 + fps and performance was again very good, perfect shear at 2 inches, not quite as good penetration of the blades, starting finding some at 3 inches, just after shear, then to 5 inches. Remaining slug penetrated some less at the lower velocity, as expected.



I would say these were pretty successful, rather impressive for a 22!

Michael

Dan also sent some tiny little Hi BC tips for these as well. As I have calculated, and this is by no means 100% correct, the 55 CEB BBW#13 NonCon without the tip has a BC of .131. With the tip this increases it to .265. Take that for what it's worth. But quickly running it through the computer, if started out at 3000 fps without the tip then it is down to 2100 fps, slightly less, at 250 yds, and sighted in 1.5 inches high at 100 it drops to 9.66 inches at 300 yds and is running 1890 fps. With the BC Tip, same parameters, 3000 fps, 1.5 inches high at 100, it is 6.35 inches low at 300, still running 2441 fps, and does not drop to 2100 fps until 475 yds. If that is important to you, it seems rather substantial.

For my part since I can't see 300 yds anyway, I like the 55 gr CEB BBW#13 as a CQB bullet myself! What a hammer in that capacity. Self defense bullet of course.







With the Hi BC tips, it's terminals did not change, perfect performance.

Michael

I did a couple of other bullets in 223 just for comparisons. First a favorite of mine for many years and I have shot thousands of these at prairie dogs and playing around, very accurate in all my two twos, 55 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip. Great dog exploders! I knew they would not do too well in this, but really they actually vaporized--I found very very little next to nothing out of two bullets! Some pieces so tiny I could not get them picked out from the test medium.




And of course that deep penetrating 62 gr Barnes TSX.




Trauma to medium was nearly non existent from the Nosler, which surprised me a bit, just a tiny hole with pieces from beginning to end at 6 inches. The Barnes gave a bit more trauma than the Nosler, but not as much as the BBW #13 NonCon.

This concludes my "TINY-ITTY-BITTY Big Bore" report, we will now move to something a bit more, entertaining!

Michael

OK, there is one more thing I need to tell you, almost forgot.

If you intend on using a slower twist rate than 1:9--Forget about it. These BBW#13s will not stabilize in slower twists. I have an older Winchester M70 bolt gun, 1:14 I think, and they are all over the place at 50 yds. 1:9, they are in a hole at 50. So don't even think about a slower twist and these bullets.

M

There is debate on if the 223 is adequate on deer. It would be my guess that these non cons would make a great deer bullet multiplying lethality. If the double the in game penetration holds up it would be interesting to see the results on hogs as well. As far as a self defense bullet it would seem quite deadly and maybe could even go to 40 grains for limiting penetration or use in say the 22 hornet. Maybe a 40 grain and the bands higher so they can be mag fed with tips Superb results!

May I suggest a hybrid switch point non con. Twin BBW # 13 nose and tail profiles but one end would be a hollow point. You could have a flat nose boat tail or a boat tail non con or a tipped boat tail non con that could be good for longer ranges.

CEB .223/55gr NonCon: That is a sure way to turn a 22 into a deer rifle good for 0 to 300 yards.
That one should have wide appeal for other uses too, aye. Just gotta make sure the twist is 1:9". I got it.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
May I suggest a hybrid switch point non con. Twin BBW # 13 nose and tail profiles but one end would be a hollow point. You could have a flat nose boat tail or a boat tail non con or a tipped boat tail non con that could be good for longer ranges.

Now that might be a good idea! One bullet and load it one way its a solid and the other way it a soft.

I've shot deer with a 223 and had good results. The #13 non con will be even better. I will surely test it on some this season.

I don't hunt deer, but if I did, I would have no issues to bust them with the 55 gr BBW#13 NonCon no doubt about it. Penetration is plenty and damage is extensive for a 22! Still not a big bore however.

Boomy, keep thinking. Careful you don't start smoking the brain cells!


OK, here is the run of .423 BBW#13s Solids and NonCons. FYI











M

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

The answers are different whether a NonCon or a #13 solid but the questions are the same:
Will the lungs colapse from a 223 hit?
Will the brain stop functioning from a 223 hit? Will the heart be able to keep functioning after a 223 hit?
Will the 223 be able to break a shoulder?
Will the 223 be able to snap the nerve in the neck or back

The answer to all of these are "YES" at least for humans with the qualifier "CAN".

For whatever anecdotes are worth (nothing in my book, but you get what you pay for on AR) I have seen far more folk survive small caliber through and through penetrating injuries to all of those vitals than I have from larger. In fact I've not personally seen a single survivor with any of those injuries from a 357 caliber or larger and quite a few with those from smaller.

I have 500 each of the 223s ordered. I think I will be loading some up for my around the house work. I have only fired in one rifle so far, but seems to work fine. Will try a few more and see how feed and function is, but suspect what is good in one will be good in the others as well. Good bullet to have around. In fact does enhance the 22s!

Dan sent along the first of the new .338 225 CEB BBW#13 HPs as well. I think I mentioned this the other day. I loaded up several in the 338 WSM and the 338 Ultra. This morning I was able to get a test in with them. I am satisfied with the results.




First the 338 WSM. I tested 4 bullets in each. 2 of the 4 in the WSM lost stability at 16 inches, sideways and tumbling to 20 inches total. The other two went straight and at the end of penetration, probably last 1.5 inches, turned and was found sideways. There was a lot of damage from 2 inches to around 8 or so inches, blades stayed close to center, not more than 2 inches away from center wound channel, dispersing up to 6-7 inches max. I really don't see a big issue with these loosing stability, these would be devastating on plains game, moose, bears, things like that.





In the big Ultra there really was not much difference in performance. Blades shear at 2 inches, penetrated between 5-10 inches, there was a lot of trauma and destruction to medium, the extra velocity helping with that. Blades stayed close to center again, max two inches from, most inside 1.5 inches from center, this adding to the wound channel significantly. Seems some instability, found 2 at 20 inches both sideways, found two at 28 inches both sideways. Did not get sideways until the end of penetration.




It is now my understanding that CEB has decided to make the BBW#13 NonCon in all standard small bore calibers as well. I think that is a pretty good decision myself. I will be getting some for the other calibers as well, I am thinking .257, .264, and .358, in addition to the 223 and 338s already established.

I also mentioned to Nathan yesterday that we need to start thinking about the "BBW#13 Carnivore" and get some calibers established and some test work done with those as well!

Lot's of things in the fire right now for everyone, but a "Carnivore" is for sure at the top of my list.

Now here is what I am thinking on the Carnivore. Deep Cavity-but we will want to start most of these as longer bullets. Let's look at .500 for example, the only Carnivore tested, and made for that matter was a .500 425 gr Carnivore, made from the original 500 gr BBW#13 Solid, and 460 BBW#13 NonCon. Deep cavity Carnivore came to 425 grs. It sure worked, no doubt. Maybe We should make a Carnivore in .500 from the new 550 gr BBW#13 Solid?? Longer, heavier, and this would leave a larger slug at the end, longer heavier blades too? Slice and dice!

In 474 would need to be from the 500 gr BBW#13, and the 458 from 500 as well. For my own B&Ms I might go with the 450s in each of these to make Deep Cavity Carnivores! And so forth, so on. Maybe in the lever guns, a Carnivore made from the 400 Solid? Lot's to ponder on these, lot's to ponder!

I will be pondering, next week, right now, I am going to see if I can turn into a Couch sitting, beer drinking, TV vegetable! Or some such thing anyway!

LOL

M

quote:

Originally posted by srose:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
May I suggest a hybrid switch point non con. Twin BBW # 13 nose and tail profiles but one end would be a hollow point. You could have a flat nose boat tail or a boat tail non con or a tipped boat tail non con that could be good for longer ranges.

Now that might be a good idea! One bullet and load it one way its a solid and the other way it a soft.

I've shot deer with a 223 and had good results. The #13 non con will be even better. I will surely test it on some this season.

Thanks! Was thinking the one bullet system with tips is pretty interesting. Just need to design the bands pretty much. Solids and non tipped non cons should have the same point of impact too.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
May I suggest a hybrid switch point non con. Twin BBW # 13 nose and tail profiles but one end would be a hollow point. You could have a flat nose boat tail or a boat tail non con or a tipped boat tail non con that could be good for longer ranges.

Now that might be a good idea! One bullet and load it one way its a solid and the other way it a soft.

I've shot deer with a 223 and had good results. The #13 non con will be even better. I will surely test it on some this season.

Thanks! Was thinking the one bullet system with tips is pretty interesting. Just need to design the bands pretty much. Solids and non tipped non cons should have the same point of impact too.

Here’s a thought for this bullet as it’s already a hybrid. Have Dan put a Seal Tite Band in the center of the bullet with two of the narrow FBH bands above and below the Seal Tite Band. That would give plenty of neck tension regardless of orientation, a full barrel pressure seal, with low barrel pressure from the narrow banding.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
OK, here is the run of .423 BBW#13s Solids and NonCons. FYI










M

Awesome nose cavity on the .423s, they'll definitely shear petals just fine. To bad I don’t have a rifle to send you to run these bullets though the bullet box.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
May I suggest a hybrid switch point non con. Twin BBW # 13 nose and tail profiles but one end would be a hollow point. You could have a flat nose boat tail or a boat tail non con or a tipped boat tail non con that could be good for longer ranges.

Now that might be a good idea! One bullet and load it one way its a solid and the other way it a soft.

I've shot deer with a 223 and had good results. The #13 non con will be even better. I will surely test it on some this season.

Thanks! Was thinking the one bullet system with tips is pretty interesting. Just need to design the bands pretty much. Solids and non tipped non cons should have the same point of impact too.

Here’s a thought for this bullet as it’s already a hybrid. Have Dan put a Seal Tite Band in the center of the bullet with two of the narrow FBH bands above and below the Seal Tite Band. That would give plenty of neck tension regardless of orientation, a full barrel pressure seal, with low barrel pressure from the narrow banding.

5 bands sounds about right. Question is who would want some and what diameter? I guess a prototype could be made from an existing non con by adding the flat nose #13 profile to the back. Srose, do you feel like altering a few non cons for testing?

The tip AND the boat tail would add some distance

Boom Stick,

Got you covered! I'm on it. What will we come up with next?

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Boom Stick,

Got you covered! I'm on it. What will we come up with next?

Sam

Awesome!
What a flexible bullet!
That boat tail/flat point will make the tipped non con even better!

BBW-BS FN/NC

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
BBW-BS FN/NC

Ya'll won't even let me get to the "Carnivore" much less finalize it before going to something else! Whew............ I must get some more meds I think!



M

Boomy, Notice the time of the post? We're working the poor guy night and day!

Meds? No, Grey Goose
I know you are a busy man.
Performance should be about the same as the others.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Meds? No, Grey Goose
I know you are a busy man.
Performance should be about the same as the others.

Boomy, I love to wash the meds down with Grey Goose! Enhances everything you know!

The reversible bullet would work well in anything from .223 to .730 caliber;











Robgunbuilder did these brass versions of the Darwin:

How does this look to you Boomy?

Looking good!!!
Nice prototype
What diameter?
Did you make that from scratch or an existing bullet?
The hollow base should add stability. With the bands so close to the hollow point that would seem to make it possible to magazine feed with the tips using neck tension.

Rip
You just have to make a tip for those brass darwins for some long range shotgun subsonic sniping!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Rip
You just have to make a tip for those brass darwins for some long range shotgun subsonic sniping!

Define long range please, for sub sonic shotgun sniping.





SSR

At 1050 fps with a high BC tip on those 900 ish grain bullets I think 300 yards rainbow trajectory should be good.

Boomy,

Made it from scratch and it is a .500 dia. 500 grain. I did not put the 6 cuts in the hollow but can if needed. It is actually a pretty interesting bullet and if terminals look good you may have something there.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Boomy,

Made it from scratch and it is a .500 dia. 500 grain. I did not put the 6 cuts in the hollow but can if needed. It is actually a pretty interesting bullet and if terminals look good you may have something there.

Sam

Perfect!
The hollow point we know works well but how straight and deep is the issue with the flat nose compared to the same weight of a flat base and how much BC they get with the tips attached. Having one bullet for two purposes and one load with no real downside is quite interesting.