Michael,

Super deal.

The penetration and petals proformed as predicted. One of the real impressive things to me is the entrance hole--Man these BBW'sof yours start to work right away.



SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
Michael,

Super deal.

The penetration and petals proformed as predicted. One of the real impressive things to me is the entrance hole--Man these BBW'sof yours start to work right away.



SSR

Cross

Yes, they do. The hole closest to the left eye is actually a 460 BBW#13 NonCon HP. We found blades inside the skull, and right under that left eye there was a hole blown inside big as my fist. I saw the reaction and you could see the impact, the trauma, and the lights going out at that point, no doubt. He never made anymore forward movement after the first shot and was sinking down as the solid hit him slightly further to the right.

M

Michael,

sorry, my bad english.........
With "Amount" i was asking if you got the number of cases you´ve ordered.

Hope that i can help again doing the B&M Brass.

Best
2RECON

Spectacular performance of the big-bore-brass NonCon-Exploders and Solids.

Those NonCons look the same whether they are retrieved from cape buffalo, MIB Test Medium,
Iron Water Board Buffalo, or Homer Buckets of water.
I think they will work on anything, at any useful velocity.
Utterly reliable.

The .223/62-grainer could have some useful applications.
What twist was the barrel used?
Not encouraging this, but a .223/55-grain NonCon (or heavier in the proper twist, if the bullet gets longer)
could finally turn the .223 into a reliable deer rifle.
Just sayin' ...

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:



Something I want to note, the pics of the buffalo are exactly as he fell back down after hammering him with the two nose shots. Zero positioning was done for the photos, he is as he was.

M

Michael,

It is unfortunate that you don’t have a photograph of the bullet sticking out the hind end of that buffalo as the “four” photographs would have been priceless advertising for Dan! Also would have been one of the few times that I’d truly like to see a video of the hunt so that I could have seen the reaction of the buffalo from that 460gr NonCon headshot.

Of course…LOL…your up close elephant encounter would be a priceless video as well!!!...especially as the ele died and you’re safe!

quote:

The .223/62-grainer could have some useful applications.
What twist was the barrel used?
Not encouraging this, but a .223/55-grain NonCon (or heavier in the proper twist, if the bullet gets longer)
could finally turn the .223 into a reliable deer rifle.
Just sayin' ...

I am thinking pygmy hippo and dwarf forest buffalo.

Gotta be consistant , dont cha know.



SSR

Welcome back! !
Just wanted to note that scale wise this would be about 100" in penetration with a 458 bullet.
The radius might need to be a tad smaller to make it perform a tad better but damn that is awesome performance. Is a 22 non con in the works?

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
OH yes, look at what I just happened to find!

OMG, Michael has even turned the 223 into a buffalo gun

I was thinking the same thing...LOL

Sorry I got busy yesterday and then turned in early as normal and did not get back to this.

2Recon

Yes, I opened up everything yesterday morning. With the $$ I had wired Dieter and the exchange rate at the time I had enough there for 905 pieces of 500 MDM. Which is dandy. I plan on being somewhat stingy with it of course. HEH.....

There is no doubt in my mind you will be of great assistance to me with Dieter's communications on the rest of the work. I am going to try and put this together for him in the coming couple of weeks or so, and get it started.
Thanks a bunch.


RIP

Correct, NonCons work and work well regardless of Medium! Cannot be denied any longer, although I had 99.9% confidence, the test work has never failed yet! What is successful in the tests will be successful in the field. End of Story!

I like that little 223 as well. Twist was 1:9. A 223 NonCon would be extremely interesting, and I think at some point that will happen. Unlike our normal NonCons, this one would have to be longer and not the same or near same exact bullet as the Solid. If so, it would probably weigh 25 grs! HEH.... But this is getting out of my area of expertise, these tiny mini bores! At some point in the near future I think I will have a pile of 60 gr BBW#13s. 60 gr is plenty with a BBW#13 and evens the numbers some. I think a NonCon of 50-55 would be excellent.

Dave, Cross and Phats, no I can't take credit for the bullet, Sam brought it down as a bit of a surprise then and it was amazing. I like a little more diameter for my buffs however! But, talk about putting one in the head, I think it would drop on the spot! Penetration is there!


Jim
Yeah I hate I missed that. It was hectic and much to do. We were actually on our way back to the elephant when busting the buff. We left the buff where he was and continued back over to the elephant in fact. I suppose we had a lot going on, and I never even looked, even sitting at the back end for some photos.

I hate video! I stopped anyone from taking video of my hunts years ago. I once had a buddy that wanted to do video. Well I was busy with a bear in a cave in California. It was a little close and had to do handgun work. When it was all said and done, I turned around and was rather pleased with myself, and there was no one there? They had all took off around the side of the hill! So much for the camera man and getting anything of value.

Last time anyone did a video with me was in 2001 on an elephant. I did rather well and was ok with it. But I never let anyone do anymore. First of all, I also quit watching hunting videos, or TV Shows. There is just WAY to much stupid crap on them, people do stupid crap in the field, make stupid mistakes, look stupid, and I bet they feel stupid when they watch as well. So I figure if I do something STUPID in the field or if I look stupid in the field, hell I don't want any damned proof of it!!!

Another thing, believe this or not, I really do not like to see myself, and don't like to hear myself speak. I don't have one of those big deep manly voices, and so maybe a little shy about that. I can talk your ears off, but I don't want to watch myself doing it! HEH.....

No Video Allowed on my Shooting expeditions! Photos, yes and lot's of them, but no video.

Michael

Michael

I figured out what you are up to--

That lil 62 gr 223 bbw will be perfect for Mercedes to start hunting with. A Winchester lo-wall in 223 would make a perfect first rifle.

You sir are a good father--

Get her started buying guns now before she learns other things are more expensive.



SSR

That 223 BBW#13 is a fantastic bullet and a non con would be really nice to have also. As Michael has said before this design follows through in every caliber tried. Now I just need to test them at longer ranges to see how they fly.

Was loading some 500 NE last night for upcoming test of my new Sabatti double and found something I think you guys should know. I was loading several different bullets and when I loaded some new Barnes banded solids I found the bullets just fell into sized cases. These bullets are supposed to be .509 dia. I measured them and they were .5075. Man what junk! Here I was worried about neck tension with my 2 band bullets and these Barnes things have no neck tension. As others have said I'm done with Barnes.

Sam

quote:

Was loading some 500 NE last night for upcoming test of my new Sabatti double and found something I think you guys should know. I was loading several different bullets and when I loaded some new Barnes banded solids I found the bullets just fell into sized cases. These bullets are supposed to be .509 dia. I measured them and they were .5075. Man what junk! Here I was worried about neck tension with my 2 band bullets and these Barnes things have no neck tension. As others have said I'm done with Barnes.

I also wonder how much money they save over a years span by trimming all bullets undersize by 0.001"-0.002"? I guess they justify it as "reducing barrel pressure".

Its probably just very poor quality control!

And I thought that the optimum was .510.
Maybe this would be added reason to go .500 with a 49/338Lapua.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Its probably just very poor quality control!

Barnes wants to cut the flat nose. Cut the QC on the flat nose and save a few bucks. In the process make some real bad bullets, which will lead to bad press for the flat nose and add to its demise. Someone complains to BArnes and they say, "See, I told you to use the round nose, those flat noses are just no good."

Ban the Barnes

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Its probably just very poor quality control!

That would be scary-

SSR

Yep Sam has turned the .223 into a DG killer…just not a stopper (unless it’s a brain shot). Likely a 60gr FN solid paired with a 50gr (+/- 5gr) HP NonCon would make a pretty nice killing pair for the black gun folks.

So Michael…I see that Winchester has their new M70 Featherweight Compact rifle in 22-250 (they don’t offer the .223) …Or you could go with the other CRF maker…Ruger offers their M77 Hawkeye compact rifle in .223 as well as the 6.8 SPC round…either would be good combos as well. All of these rounds loaded with BB#13 FN and HP NonCons would make a pretty devastating combo on pigs and other critters that Mercedes might want to hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Yep Sam has turned the .223 into a DG killer…just not a stopper (unless it’s a brain shot). Likely a 60gr FN solid paired with a 50gr (+/- 5gr) HP NonCon would make a pretty nice killing pair for the black gun folks.

So Michael…I see that Winchester has their new M70 Featherweight Compact rifle in 22-250 (they don’t offer the .223) …Or you could go with the other CRF maker…Ruger offers their M77 Hawkeye compact rifle in .223 as well as the 6.8 SPC round…either would be good combos as well. All of these rounds loaded with BB#13 FN and HP NonCons would make a pretty devastating combo on pigs and other critters that Mercedes might want to hunt.

Sir, I will have you know that I already own two Winchester M70s in 223 R, thank you very much! I refuse to have those Other "Off Brand" Generic type rifles!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Yep Sam has turned the .223 into a DG killer…just not a stopper (unless it’s a brain shot). Likely a 60gr FN solid paired with a 50gr (+/- 5gr) HP NonCon would make a pretty nice killing pair for the black gun folks.

So Michael…I see that Winchester has their new M70 Featherweight Compact rifle in 22-250 (they don’t offer the .223) …Or you could go with the other CRF maker…Ruger offers their M77 Hawkeye compact rifle in .223 as well as the 6.8 SPC round…either would be good combos as well. All of these rounds loaded with BB#13 FN and HP NonCons would make a pretty devastating combo on pigs and other critters that Mercedes might want to hunt.

Sir, I will have you know that I already own two Winchester M70s in 223 R, thank you very much! I refuse to have those Other "Off Brand" Generic type rifles!

I just had to so to speak!

Heck…we get some decent CEB FBHP and CEB BBW #13 bullets in .223 caliber I might have to get one to supplement my .300 RSAUM for critter control purposes.

quote:

6.8 SPC round

CE already has a non-com .277" at 120 grains for the 270 Win. Supposedly it breaks into long 'banana-shaped' pieces. I'm thinking of getting my wife some. I'm assuming that it has a deep penetrating core.
Does anyone have any experience with these light calibre, highBC, non-cons?

And she might as well have some BBW13 flatnose solids for follow-up shots. (Thirty years ago I used to load some 130 grain Sierra boattails backwards after filing off the lead tip. That was pretty close to a flat nose with a looong boattail.)

The 6.8 SPC you want to be about .6" from tip to crimp and about 100 grains and maybe 85 in non con. A 22 non con would be a heck of a antipersonnel bullet.

About the M70 Classic jamb problem caused by the magazine spring sliding forward in the retaining slots on the floor plate:

Here is an easy fix that I did after Rusty McGee suggested it and handed me a piece of flat steel.
It is hard steel, heat treated.
I used 4 Dremel Tool Heavy Duty cut-off wheels to cut two small pieces of flat steel to JB Weld in place.
The one on the bottom of the follower is probably not necessary. But it will help prevent any running start at the stop on the floor plate.
It is .5" x .15" x .050".
The one on the floor plate is completely hidden under JB Weld.
It is .5" x .25" x .050".
Use a small pair of Vise Grips to hold the piece and put a slight bevel, using a bench grinder, on the edge that contacts the end of the spring.
This will force the spring edge down at the stop if it slides forward in recoil, enough to touch the stop.











Hard kicking, light-weight, M70 Classics of any chambering ought to have this done,
Especially the 49-10.

I'll soon see if the Sunny Hill floor plate needs a similar fix.

RIP

That's mighty fine work you do there! I dare not show mine, it's more like a big blob of JB Weld! What you have there is an excellent idea. All the Super Shorts are really bad for jumping the bump so to speak.

Good Work. Thanks for posting that.

Couple of things that I have been meaning to mention, but keep forgetting to mention them. First, PAPI and some others have been taking our thread to other forums, doing their best to share, and give folks an opportunity to learn. For the most part, it has been successful. I don't have time to go out to all other forums, not on my own, so I know that you doing so is a good deed and this is good stuff and needs to be shared with others. I commend all you who go forth into the Darkness, to bring them light! HEH HEH......


I have been meaning to mention this for several days now! We have a new Name for the "Lion Bullet"!!! I am NOT responsible for this, but our very own 450NE has come up with the most appropriate name for this bullet!

"BBW#13 Carnivore"

Is that great or what? Absolutely fantastic I think! 450NE--You are the Man!

I will be working on the BBW#13 Carnivore as we move forward.

Good Night All

Michael

My wish list of bullets is to have these bullets designed for other lever action carts like the 30-30, 35 Rem, 348 and 444 to increase the performance of these classic combo rig and carts. A 160 and 140 grain 30-30 bullet, a 180 and 200 grain 35 rem, a 225 and 250 348 and 325 and 350 444. Maybe a 4 vs a six petal design. Lever action bullets of the future!

"Carnivore" is very cool.
Way, way better than "meat grinder."

Brass hollow points: Do we still have a "NonCon" plus the more vicious, deeper-cavity "Carnivore" ???

UMM

As they are all "Non-conventional" perhaps a name is in order?

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
"Carnivore" is very cool.
Way, way better than "meat grinder."

Brass hollow points: Do we still have a "NonCon" plus the more vicious, deeper-cavity "Carnivore" ???

RIP

Oh yes, the "NonCon" will remain always I think. And is a good designation for what they do.'

As for the BBW#13 Carnivore, well I want to test it more. It will not be quite as easy as the .400 deep NonCon across the board.

First, in my opinion, it needs to be one of the longer bullets in caliber. The reason is the long pieces of shrapnel, slicing and tearing through tissue. What I used was the .800 deep cavity from the .500 caliber 500 gr bullet. With .400 deep it's a 460, at .800 deep it's a 425 gr .500 caliber "Carnivore". This happens to work rather well, I had Dan do 100 of them, and that's all. I had a few left over and took 5 loads with me for thin skinned game only, which I shot the waterbuck with such devastating results. Now, in .458 we may want a .600 cavity or .700, just not sure until we start testing some of these? I want to test for some more consistency, penetration, and other things before declaring a new wonder bullet. I won't let it be released, at least not with my endorsement, before knowing what it will do for sure. Have only began to explore this, and don't want to jump the gun too quick.

As for the name, BBW#13 Carnivore, that is perfect for what it is designed for, cats true carnivores, bears (omnivore technically but.....) and any other thin skinned critters. If one uses it for antelope and deer, then it becomes the "Carnivore" chewing and ripping flesh! Whew, wicked, absolutely wicked! I want more tests and field work done with this before leaping. I have pretty good ideas about how and what it is going to do, but I want more. Hopefully working on a trip April or May to do some of these things for thin skinned critters only.

Well right now as we write this, Andrew is in Zimbabwe with my friend from Australia, Daryl Lenkic. Daryl is doing his shooting with a 50 B&M, he was not able to get the CEB or North Forks I exported to him in time for this hunt, but he is using the Lehigh/SSK generation of copper solids and HPs that I used previously very successfully I might add too. Daryl is after his first Cape Buffalo and Hippo with Andrew. Soon as I hear, so will you! Daryl also has his own 416 WSM with him too. I forget exactly what that is called? OH, yes, it's called 416 Compact, Sorry to report as I recall it's on a remington action, shame on him! Daryl is a very competent shooter and I am sure he is giving Andrew yet another bunch of knowledge about cartridges, rifles and bullets as well. I think Daryl will be coming for a visit in January here, if so I will try and work him into coming to DSC with us as well! Looks like I will have an "entourage" HEH HEH...... I really enjoyed DSC guys! You all must make an effort, we will have a blast, walk around all day long, drink beer and shoot the crap! Don't get no better! Great social event I say! Some mighty fine folks there too!

ANyway, work to do,

Michael

Love the name "carnivore."
I must now confess, I had not read this forum from the beginning. BUT, have started to remedy this. Only have reached the first 10% of it, and last 10% but am enjoying most of it. (A few posts by someone I put on ignore several years ago, show up as "periods.") My only excuse was the year and a half I was in Iraq. My humble apologies. Great information.
Max

Max

There are some extreme shameful things in the first few pages that I really hate is even here. Yes, it's mostly one individual. That goes away over some time. Which is good! I hate it, but nothing I can do about it.

Michael

Do you think there will be a Carnivore bullet for the 9.3?
The 9.3x62 is already a great little round, this would only make it better.

Cheers, John

Michael, I have been a student of terminal ballistics for a long time and have caused some of my friends to question my sanity over my obsession at recovering bullets from dead animals.I have followed every page of this thread w/ great enthusiasm and want to personally thank you for your tireless work.Please continue. Anyone who looks at the results is a fool to argue w/ them.
Today, I received my first shipment of the non con HPs, 9.3s and 416s ,which I intend to use on the ever growing TX hog population.

Phatman, the 9.3s are for a 9.3 x 62 that J Earl Bridges is putting together for me as we speak. I'm sure my hogs will truly hate it.

Michael

in a complete aside--where do you get those good looking braided slings?

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Phatman:
Do you think there will be a Carnivore bullet for the 9.3?
The 9.3x62 is already a great little round, this would only make it better.

Cheers, John

John, since I am a new found fan of 9.3 caliber, and my 9.3 B&M, I would not bet against there being a BBW#13 Carnivore for the 9.3! HEH.....


aliveincc

Thank you, but no thanks needed. It's what I do. Hey, there are fools in the world as we all know, not much intelligent folks can do about them except bear on with the work. Fools get weeded out sooner or later, and go away! Which is best for all. No worries here, I know exactly what we are doing and why!

Excellent, NonCons in 9.3 and 416. Do keep us posted on the performance you get with them! Inquiring minds want to see and know!



Cross

Slings! Yep, those are my LONG time Galco braided slings, they have been with me for 12 yrs Plus, maybe more than that, but forever is likely. I never leave home without those two slings, they are well worn in for me and perfect for what I do.

I will take some closer photos of them for you! I did manage to unpack my rifles over the weekend, yes, I still had them, and the slings are still attached.

Michael

Slings, you do not use no slings on no Afercan huntin rifle, suprized you made it out alive.

Hey Sam,

I want to load some of the 400 grain BBW solids in my 450-400 3 1/4. With the bullet being much longer should I reduce the charge (IMR 4831) or reduce the amount of fill?

Mike,

No don't worry about reducing the charge but you can reduce filler if need be. With 4831 you might not even need filler. Remember these bullets show lower pressures or close to the same as standard soft points.

Sam

Sam, I received 9.3/250g HP and 416/325g HP. Should I use the same loads I'm using for my RL 15/270g/9.3 and Imr 4320/350g/416 ?

Been thinking about the 22 Non Con
If tests go well can see them being quite popular. It seems the non cons killing ability exceeds convention. These non cons could add great lethality to say a 22 pocket pistol as well as a high velocity cart. These flying piranhas could use a tip to aid long distance.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
Slings, you do not use no slings on no Afercan huntin rifle, suprized you made it out alive.

Yes, I do not have a clue how I have "lived" so long using a sling in Africa? It's a mystery? I should have been Dead years ago! LOL---HEH HEH.........