Yes, I think we have all learned a great deal from our little adventures, I know I have for sure. I appreciate all the participation, and the support from all of you guys as well. We got to where we are together, and I believe we have as a collective effort brought better bullets to the table for all of us. From the great Adventure with the Solids, which took up so much of the beginning of this thread, to our great adventure with the NonCons and other expanding bullets as well. We have come a very Long way, in a relatively short period of time.

I am glad Todd remembers our Barnes Banded adventures, the 9.3 vs all the others--a revelation to say the least. There have been many more along the way as well. Combined with the other areas of study, such as the Barrel Strains--again, there is no disputing those facts, these things don't lie, and are not based on opinions, or bias.

I have done my best to not be bias, but it is very hard, and being a mere human, I cannot say I have remained bias throughout. You must remember, I have been doing this for 15 years or so, I started doing this so I would learn for myself what was going on with terminal performance, as I did not trust the powers that be, manufacturers, writers, or others. I needed to know, so as to improve my own success in the field. I have been personally successful in that endeavor. The further we went into our Terminal Performance studies, the more bias I got towards certain bullets. It was inevitable when we continuously see first hand success after success that we would become this way. For this I apologize.

Of course this is not the total end of our journey, nor the total end of our continuing terminal performance studies. There will be the occasional bullet that I will be working with here that I will report, there will be things like the "Double Bullet" performance that Oz and I did during his visit that we will report. Hunting reports on Terminal Performance are very very much needed, wanted, and welcomed here--REGARDLESS of the bullet used, success or failure--please post it here with us.

I see the days of weekly, sometimes daily testing finished for the most part. We have tweaked the solids to damn near perfection, as much as we know how anyway. We have tweaked the NonCons and the tips to the point that tweaking is coming to an end as well. Dan is still working on some tweaking and BCs of the smaller bore NonCons, and that will be reported here.

Baxter, you are the writer in our group, so have at it! HEH.......... We have a short article going out in Australia soon pertaining to some of the work we have done, I will make sure and get a copy of that once it's published, our own Meplat is doing that one. And yes a great title would be our old standard line we hear from everyone "You've Never Seen Anything Like This Before"


Capo, I think it would be great for the thread to become a permanent sticky, as Big Bores does not have one of those, nearly every forum has them, but not this one! I think it would be appropriate, but I will leave that up to you guys to petition for, as I am biased!

Actual field reports should now become the focus of reports on the thread, with the occasional test work on new bullets that come in.

Thanks to all for the support given this thread. Far more has come of this thread than just the facts of learning about terminal performance--I know because of this thread I have made some damn fine friends here, and I appreciate those relationships more than many of you know!

Now, some word from Dan and Nathans little adventure. They are not in an area where I can reach them easy, but Jaun got this text from Andrew yesterday;

2012/06/03 12:25:17 PM: Andrew Schoeman: Hi jaun, I just want to let michael know that Dan and Nathan are doing fine and the the hunting is going very well. They have shot 2kudu,2oryx,wildebeest,waterbuck and impala so far. bullets are performing very good. All the best and talk to later. Andrew


When I hear, you will too.

Thanks to All of You Guys again!

Michael

I have initiated the request up in the Administration section of the forum.

If you support making the TBP thread as a permanent sticky at the top of the BB Forum please go up and add a positive supporting comment.

I did.

This is the most inforative thread that I have ever seen on AR.

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
I have initiated the request up in the Administration section of the forum.

Why not just PM the moderator?

George

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
I have initiated the request up in the Administration section of the forum.

Why not just PM the moderator?

George

Cause I was brain dead about the simplicity of the option. PM has been sent.

Thank you.

The thread is not over for those with 500AccRel.

We wait to hear what BC our Raptors will have, and if we can shoot them in a 1.25" throat, somehow or other.

I'd like to know what the final BC on the 416's will be, too. (Pressure testing is not much of an issue for a Rigby, just fill the case with a 4350-ish powder.) Just like Michael wants to know what the penetration will be, some of us need to know how far things will move in a 10 mph crosswind at 300 yards, as well as the drop.

Tan,

The threads not over by far as there are still calibers & rifles awaiting results from Michael’s bullet box as well as actual range target work such as what RIP has done with his .500 caliber (aka: 49-10, 12.7x68mm Magnum, .500/.338 Lapua Magnum) rifles. We need work from RIP’s and Max’s multiple .395 caliber rifles, work from Jeffe’s 470 AccRel rifle, and then I’m awaiting delivery of my .423 caliber (aka: 10.74x68mm Magnum, .423/.338 Lapua Magnum) rifle.

Congrats Michael

You may not be perfect but you are now sticky----



SSR

Alright!!! The thread is now a Sticky. Excellent. IMO, it's the best thread on the site. Just an overwhelming amount of great information.

It takes 1/4 million views to get sticky on Big Bores lol

Well I for one think it is a great thread, and should be a sticky. It will probably live on in perpetuity anyway. As soon as I get my 300gn 416 cal ESP Raptors and work up a load I will report. Then as soon as I get some action on game I will post another report. Many thanks to Michael and everyone else who has contributed.

Only thing that would be absolutely fantastic is some way to make researching test results easier. Maybe a separate web page with links to each caliber and then sub-links to each bullet brand tested and sub-links under that to each bullet weight.

Show the photos of the test box results followed by photos actual game results - entry/exit/tissue/organ damage.

By the way - I'm taking some of the original CEB #13 325gr in .458. Loading them in a Custom pre-64 Win 70 in 450 Marlin. Loaded to 2400fps. Leaving this Sunday and back on 1 July. Plains game only but PH may have a PAC el while we are there and if so guess what is going to be used! Based on Micheal's test of the original 325gr CEB #13 at 2300fps get 60+ inches in the test box it should work just fine.

quote:

Originally posted by 338User:
Well I for one think it is a great thread, and should be a sticky. It will probably live on in perpetuity anyway. As soon as I get my 300gn 416 cal ESP Raptors and work up a load I will report. Then as soon as I get some action on game I will post another report. Many thanks to Michael and everyone else who has contributed.

My only regret is that I only have something to report about once a year.

338User, please let us know about the Raptors because I would like to load some up for Tanzania this year, s'if'in the timing works out.

And we will need BC data. You never know when you might climb a mountain and need to drop a buff across a cravasse (thank you Tommy Smothers). More importantly, we might want to drop an eland or impala at distance.

quote:

Originally posted by m3taco:
Only thing that would be absolutely fantastic is some way to make researching test results easier. Maybe a separate web page with links to each caliber and then sub-links to each bullet brand tested and sub-links under that to each bullet weight.

Show the photos of the test box results followed by photos actual game results - entry/exit/tissue/organ damage.

By the way - I'm taking some of the original CEB #13 325gr in .458. Loading them in a Custom pre-64 Win 70 in 450 Marlin. Loaded to 2400fps. Leaving this Sunday and back on 1 July. Plains game only but PH may have a PAC el while we are there and if so guess what is going to be used! Based on Micheal's test of the original 325gr CEB #13 at 2300fps get 60+ inches in the test box it should work just fine.

Good luck!
Keep us posted

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
Congrats Michael

You may not be perfect but you are now sticky----



SSR

WOW--What else can I say?





Michael

Hey Michael, Congrats on the sticky.

Also, any update on Dan's and Nathan's hunt?

No I have not heard from the guys, and the cell service where they are is almost non existent.

I did hear this morning from one of our own that did some elephant hunting last fall, using 500 Nitro, 570 BBW#13 Solid--very successful. I asked him to come post it here. So waiting.


Don't forget you guys, I have all the Leupolds for sale right now down on the Classified. I had 32 Leupolds total for sale, found some more this morning, now I have 11 left.

Just FYI is all.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by m3taco:
By the way - I'm taking some of the original CEB #13 325gr in .458. Loading them in a Custom pre-64 Win 70 in 450 Marlin. Loaded to 2400fps. Leaving this Sunday and back on 1 July. Plains game only but PH may have a PAC el while we are there and if so guess what is going to be used! Based on Micheal's test of the original 325gr CEB #13 at 2300fps get 60+ inches in the test box it should work just fine.

m3taco

I have news for you--I think you would not have a problem with the 325 BBW#13 Solid at 2400 fps in your 450. Elephant for sure have been shot & Killed with a hell of a lot less effective bullet than that!!!!!!!

M

hey

I am going after Elles with a 416 B&M with 350 gr BBW#13s

And am happy about it.

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by m3taco:
Only thing that would be absolutely fantastic is some way to make researching test results easier. Maybe a separate web page with links to each caliber and then sub-links to each bullet brand tested and sub-links under that to each bullet weight.

Show the photos of the test box results followed by photos actual game results - entry/exit/tissue/organ damage.

By the way - I'm taking some of the original CEB #13 325gr in .458. Loading them in a Custom pre-64 Win 70 in 450 Marlin. Loaded to 2400fps. Leaving this Sunday and back on 1 July. Plains game only but PH may have a PAC el while we are there and if so guess what is going to be used! Based on Micheal's test of the original 325gr CEB #13 at 2300fps get 60+ inches in the test box it should work just fine.

Could you tell me a little more about your Model 70 450 Marlin. I have a BLR in that caliber and I would love to know how you set it up.

Thanks.

Dave:

Bought it as an already completed custom build that the original guy who commissioned it never came back to get from the gunsmith.

Pre-64 Win 70 action has been trued and a half-octagon/half-round stainless 22" barrel added. Pillar bedded/free floated barrel, bedded action with a front cross-bolt in a laminate stock. All the work was done by Buchanan Precision. Topped it with a Leupold 2-7x33 Rifleman. PM me your email and I'll try to send a photo this evening. Have my stuff all over the place right now as I'm busy finalizing the packing for this years trip - leaving this Sunday.

A little hesitant to give you the load recipe other than H4198 as these combinations of projectiles and powder aren't l listed in 450M published load data. The extra length of the magazine box as well as the bolt action itself, allows me to seat bullets longer then can be run in a 1895 Marlin. The CEB #13 is seated under/behind the front/top driving band and the TSX's (designed for the 458WM) are in the cannalure.

I've been most pleased with 350gr TSX's. Took a few of the CEB #13's with me last year but didn't get a chance to use them on anything worthy.

This trip has the last of the 350 TSX's I had on hand and will be ordering some of the new 325gr. Raptors and tips when I get back.

Side note - worked up loads for my wife's Custom 45-70 Siamese Mauser with 300gr. Tipped TSX's with the boat tail (made for the 458 SOCOM) at 2300fps. Tried those out on two Texas Scimitar Horn Oryx this past March and they were very impressive - one shot each and DRT like they were struck by lightning.

At the speeds these are going this give us both roughly the same point-blank-range of 165yds and since 95% of our shooting in Namibia is inside 150yds they are very sweet.

One nice odd thing is the 350gr TSX's and 325gr CEB #13's shoot to the same POI at 100yds.

That sounds like a fantastic rig. PM sent. Good luck on your hunt.

m3taco

As I recall you have the 325 BBW#13 Solids that were first designed for the lever guns, bands forward, shorter nose. Since those, we did a bullet that has a longer .600 nose projection, gets more penetration as well. For that bolt gun, you might want to look at these as well. Seated out, you can stuff more H4198 in them, probably getting another 100 fps or so and staying at the same pressure levels--this happened in the 458 B&M Super Short. Also, same story with the 295 BBW#13 NonCon, longer nose.


Next order of business--another little text message from Andrew about our boys Dan and Nate;

Hey michael,

We're having a hell of a good time over here. So far Nathan shot a kudu, oryx, impala, zebra, and blue wildebeast. Dan shot all of the same animals as well as a waterbuck, and another wildebeast. The bullets are doing an excellent job. Nathan shot a wildebeast for camp meat. Shot it right between the eyes with the .458 B&M and blew its eyes out. Now we're off to try to find a couple warthogs.

Take care,
Nathan, Dan, and Andrew


Now I am looking forward to some "Ugly" photos of a bug eyed wildebeast!!!!!!

Bug-eyed wildebeest... Sounds like they're having a good time, can hardly wait for the photographs.

Michael:

Correct - I think I got some of the early first run #13's from you. I took some to RSA last Oct when I did the PH course in Natal with Ian Goss. Took them loaded for my 1895 450 Marlin. Also, took some down-loaded 375gr cast with gas checks at 1750fps for all the range work and qualification shooting.

After the course was over (I passed), I stayed a few days and did a little PG hunting - Nyala, Impala, Warthog and Blue Wildebeest. The cast were so effective on the first three I didn't switch to the CEB's until I was concentrating on the BW. Unfortunately, he ended up being cagier then us and never got a shot off. Ended up giving the CEB's away to the guys in the class and Ian for their collections and shooting up the last few at the range just for fun so I wouldn't have to deal with live ammo on the way back.

Will be looking to order some CEB's once we get back from this years trip.

m3taco

You owe it to yourself to try a few NonCons!

OF course it will spoil you, then you will have to put all your other bullets away, or sell them, or just shoot them up, as you will never use anything else again. So maybe it's not such a good idea as all your shelves of bullets will become obsolete.

Michael

Interesting to go back and read a few of those very first pages on this thread. An incredible amount of knowledge has been gained since then. Lots of opinions retired as well.

agree - I am going back quite often just to re-read what was tested and concluded... immense amount of really usefull knowledge...

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Interesting to go back and read a few of those very first pages on this thread. An incredible amount of knowledge has been gained since then. Lots of opinions retired as well.

Todd and Buffalo

Yes, there is a lot of good discoveries made here since November 3 2009. I regret there had to be so many battles fought with a couple of individuals for us to proceed, that most certainly wasted time, energy, and resources that could have been put to better and more productive use. But none the less, here we are. And I believe all are better for it as well. As Todd so very appropriately states, discovery, and change is met with an unwillingness to accept to begin with. It's human nature, I went through it as well in many cases, but at least was open to discovery. As most of us here are. It was at times trying to say the least. There are many pages here on this thread I wished did not exist, and I am sure I have said a few things that I wish I had not. It is what it is and here we are.

I think some of the biggest accomplishments here was to identify all the attributes necessary for the very best of terminal performance with SOLIDS. We identified many things, multiple factors needed to insure straight and deep penetration.

#1 Nose Profile
#2 Meplat Size
#3 Radius Edge of Meplat
#4 Twist Rate
#5 Velocity
#6 Construction & Material
#7 Nose Projection
#8 Sectional Density

Each one of these factors we identified here, and can prove it time and again, consistently.

Now, as to the exact ranking of importance--from #4 to #7 depends on OTHER involved factors as well. For instance, If #2 is inadequate, then #4 becomes more important! #5 depends a great deal on #1. #7 depends on your type of rifle and #1 to an extent. These factors depend on other factors. If #2 is of correct size, then #4 becomes much less important and possibly #5 and #6 of more importance. And I am sure other combinations of influence can be found as well, but I think you must get the jest of it.

These were extremely important discoveries. Some of which we all might have had an idea about, but we were able to put everything together here so as to fall into place, and make sense of it.

We also learned much about our conventional bullets along the way, some very good results, some not so good. What we did learn was there there really are no BAD BULLETS! That's right, you heard me correct, as for terminal performance, there are no bad bullets! We as hunters sometimes make BAD CHOICES! We have all been known at one time or another to choose a bullet that was not suitable for the task at hand, or the mission we asked of it. That was OUR FAULT--Not the bullets fault, as it may have very well been designed for other missions, and we asked far too much of it. Every bullet made has a proper use, whether that might be target shooting, or varmint shooting or cape buffalo shooting. It is up to us as the hunter/shooter to learn about terminal performance and how and what a bullet is designed to accomplish, then to make the right choices.

Now we have and are in the process of learning about the NonCons. And what a learning experience this is so far! NonCons can and do enhance the performance of any cartridge. They give us performance, penetration, destruction of vital tissues, like we have never seen before. In many ways the performance of the NonCons is so incredible, we begin to question ourselves about the need for solids on animals that would have never been in question before. While elephant is still excluded, there are those of you out there that even consider the possibilities of the NonCon in that arena--Myself, I am not at that point yet. But I do question myself about buffalo and even hippo these days! That is a first--as I would have never, ever, questioned the backup solids on all buffalo, and hippo that would have always been a solid for me. I find myself in question of that practice these days, with the NonCons up front! While not 100% convinced yet, I am leaning more that way every day! There is much to continue to learn about the NonCons.

For sure, it's been a journey of discovery, and it continues.

Michael

While not strictly terminal performance, there is something to share this morning with you.

As some know, I have a fellow that cuts and trims the RUM brass for the B&Ms. We just finished up a run of 1500 pieces, all cut from 300 RUM to B&M specs. During this process we have found now two pieces of brass, INSIDE the cases of 300 RUM. Yes, I round cut ring found inside a new piece of 300 RUM. Something during the manufacturing process I assume.

Just an interesting thing, always check your new brass and inspect. I have seen a lot of things in my days. Once I had a brand new piece of Federal brass in 45/70 in which the rim was too thick, would not allow the action to close on a Marlin. And there have been other things as well. But until recently we had never found something that was actually inside the case itself.




Just FYI is all. OH--On the photo it says 375 RUM---It was not--It was 300 RUM. SORRY.

Michael

Doc M,

Incredible work you folks (you, Sam, et al) have done here. It has been an incredible time just following along with you.

Warm regards

Michael, finally some proof !!
"It cut a hole as clean as if it were done with a cookie cutter !"

There was in fact a European ammo maker who made a similar ring type bullet for handguns .I wonder if anyone could refresh my memory of who made it .
Thanks !

To answer my own question.Geco BAT was one maker.Properly a Ring Airfoil Projectile .Has a ploymer plug on the back which comes off when fired. Now considered an AP round .Used by the Gov't in the shameful Waco incident.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Todd and Buffalo


I think some of the biggest accomplishments here was to identify all the attributes necessary for the very best of terminal performance with SOLIDS.

What we did learn was there there really are no BAD BULLETS!



Michael

+1 Those BBW#13 solids are fantastic!

Michael, I agree with Todd. I think the Barnes 9,3 solid is a "bad bullet".

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

"What we did learn was there there really are no BAD BULLETS!"

Michael, I agree with Todd. I think the Barnes 9,3 solid is a "bad bullet".

Michael

[/QUOTE]



Dave, Thank You! You and Todd are both correct on that point. When I made that statement, I really was not thinking of solids, but conventional expanding.

But your point about the 9.3 Barnes Banded is 100% spot on, it's one of the worst bullets I have ever seen--It is a "Bad Bullet". I concur!

Michael

Michael:

We now have what I call "super bullets". I love doubles and lever guns. Your BBW#13s, Woodleigh Hydros, and Barnes Busters have transformed the 45/70 and 450 Marlin into stone cold killers and the BBW#13s and North Fork Cup Point solids have done the same thing for my doubles. All your work and effort is GREATLY appreciated my friend.

Dave is the one who pointed out the problems with the Barnes Banded Solid 9.3 to me. I had found a load in my double that was shooting very well with that bullet. If Dave hadn't pointed me to the correct pages of this thread, I might still be shooting that bullet, thinking all is fine!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I think some of the biggest accomplishments here was to identify all the attributes necessary for the very best of terminal performance with SOLIDS. We identified many things, multiple factors needed to insure straight and deep penetration.

#1 Nose Profile
#2 Meplat Size
#3 Radius Edge of Meplat
#4 Twist Rate
#5 Velocity
#6 Construction & Material
#7 Nose Projection
#8 Sectional Density

Each one of these factors we identified here, and can prove it time and again, consistently.

Now, as to the exact ranking of importance--from #4 to #7 depends on OTHER involved factors as well. For instance, If #2 is inadequate, then #4 becomes more important! #5 depends a great deal on #1. #7 depends on your type of rifle and #1 to an extent. These factors depend on other factors. If #2 is of correct size, then #4 becomes much less important and possibly #5 and #6 of more importance. And I am sure other combinations of influence can be found as well, but I think you must get the jest of it.

These were extremely important discoveries.

Michael

Boy do I recollect the arguments this listing caused when 'sectional density' was moved further and further down the list until it reached the bottom! And now we have the ESP Raptors with their 0.200-0.220 SD producing pheonominal results which further highlights the importance of the #'s 1-7 features vis-vis #8 SD.

Conventional bullets need a high SD to keep up with a .2 SD Raptor. We have also learned there is no down side to velocity and the non cons and Raptors.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Conventional bullets need a high SD to keep up with a .2 SD Raptor. We have also learned there is no down side to velocity and the non cons and Raptors.

Boomy you are correct. In the realm of C&C (bonded and non-bonded) bullets BC still reighns supreme as an indicator of penetration 'potential'. And within the realm of C&C bullets, bonded reighns supreme over non-bonded for bullet terminal performance.

So where does weight fit in--

do we have the metric for dropping from traditional weights to the Non-Cons?

SSR