quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Ok, I want to "lobby" for a change on the BIG BORE Forum. I think it was mentioned before by someone, but I am sick to damn death of looking at that "round nose FMJ" bullet at the top of our forum!

I want a Proper Flat Nose Solid there!


Who is With Me?

Michael

+1

Here is the lineup. All are .500 caliber. Since this photo, Sam did make some round nose versions to start things off with. I will be testing in a 1:12 twist rate barrel. I am not sure of whether it will be one of the 50 B&Ms or the 500 MDM yet until I get my hands on the bullets. Sam says they are going in the post this week to me, so when in hand I will set the test up and possibly start on them next week. This will be one to pay very close attention to.

Michael,

As the 50 B&M and 500 MDM utilize the same 12” twist rate barrels…I recommend that you use that AI Turkish Walnut stocked 50 B&M for the testing as this will assure that the extra velocity of the 500 MDM does not skew the within mass penetration results.

I like the 70% meplat bullets...but those 50%ers would make real nice hollow points!

How about some 65% ones made from aluminum?

Boomy

One thing at a time please! I am already behind on the test work, still have 9.3s that Sam sent down, I was hoping to get to those this week. And I think I have something left over from last week too?

Michael

Yes, you are a busy bee. Excited to see these tests! I'll cut back on the coffee

Geezz guys!First you said one wasn't enough for a proper test that you needed two to test. Now you're saying 4, 10 or 100. Come on!

Michael now that I have it figured out if you see one style that needs more testing I can make more of the same. I'm sure now someone will say they are too light or to heavy.I think you have plenty of work to do with two each at this point. You have tons of paper to water down and stack so I think I have some time to relax a bit. Give my bastard file a rest because it got so hot the temper is out of it.

I mailed them today so you should have them by Thursday.

Sam

FN logo for the big bore forum, good idea.
This forum has bridged the twentieth to twenty-first centuries with more than a decade of cutting edge science and technological developments,
not the least of which is that of Doc M.
The .458 WinMag logo with a round nose solid is indeed a big bore kind of big bore, with nineteenth century bullet tech!

Doc M should be nominated for a Nobel Prize in Terminal Ballistics!!!
He is a shoo-in to win, if Al Gore and President What's-his-name can win them in other fields!

Sam:
How close to same weight are those .500-caliber bullets of varying meplat?
I think even a sample of two of each meplat, in that big series of 5% steps in meplat,
is good science if it shows a trend of increase in penetration to a certain point, and then a fall off.
Great work, you may get nominated for a share of the Nobel Terminal Ballistics Prize.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Ok, I want to "lobby" for a change on the BIG BORE Forum. I think it was mentioned before by someone, but I am sick to damn death of looking at that "round nose FMJ" bullet at the top of our forum!

I want a Proper Flat Nose Solid there!

Who is With Me?

Michael

Old meets new, a proper big bore with a proper bullet

Rip,

I did not weigh the bullets to see the difference in weight. I'LL let Michael record all of that. It should not be much as brass is pretty light. I don't think the small amount of weight difference will have any effect on the performance of the bullets. I made them as close to the same as possible with what I have to work with. Trying to calculate the change in length to keep the weight the same is just more than I want to do.

Sam

As far as logo goes, I vote a 458 B&M with a big flat nose with a 67% meplat.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
FN logo for the big bore forum, good idea.
This forum has bridged the twentieth to twenty-first centuries with more than a decade of cutting edge science and technological developments,
not the least of which is that of Doc M.
The .458 WinMag logo with a round nose solid is indeed a big bore kind of big bore, with nineteenth century bullet tech!

Doc M should be nominated for a Nobel Prize in Terminal Ballistics!!!
He is a shoo-in to win, if Al Gore and President What's-his-name can win them in other fields!

Sam:
How close to same weight are those .500-caliber bullets of varying meplat?
I think even a sample of two of each meplat, in that big series of 5% steps in meplat,
is good science if it shows a trend of increase in penetration to a certain point, and then a fall off.
Great work, you may get nominated for a share of the Nobel Terminal Ballistics Prize.

RIP

Nobel Prize? I am honored to say the least! HEH!



OK, I put in a request "upstairs" for the logo change to a new flat nose big bore cartridge this morning. Under "Forum Suggestions, and Requests" I think those who would like this maybe go up there, lend some support and suggestions????

http://forums.accuratereloadin...401038531#9401038531


Michael

Mike

Glad you are back with us! Where you been? Lost in another forum talking about shoes or something again? HEH.

M

Good to be back, we solved plenty of issues in the other forums from boots to the oil spill on the political forum.

I have not been doing any bullet testing. I have been doing a little shooting getting ready for my Zim/Moz trip later this year.

The 375 H&H CZ with a 25" barrel (could not resist) will sport the Barnes Banded Solids and I still have not decided about the softs. Either North Fork or TSX. Both shoot so good it is hard to decide.

The 470 will go with Woodleigh softs and North Fork solids of course.

My wife has been shooting with me. She may be a better shooter than, while that is not saying much she really is shooting well. Her 7 by 57 will be ready in a couple of weeks. Had I been smart a 9.3 B&M would have been ideal for her.

I hope you match the threads on the bullet with the rifling on your barrel. I would hate to see a left thread on a right hand twist. The bullet could penetrate because of momentum, then unscrew itself with the backwards thread rotation.

BTW the website looks good.

Mike

Well, glad you solved the issues on the other forums, as I had little doubt of your abilities to do so!

Oh man, I love getting rifles and loads ready for a trip! That is a big part of it for me, the right rifle, the right cartridge, the right bullet, the load, sights, getting them ready, getting things set, and then having it right when the moment comes! And then everything works as it's supposed to do, very satisfying, gives much gratification!

You are doing it the right way, put in your time, your tests, your work! Now, when it all comes together you will be a happy man! The rest is in your hands now. It's up to you, no excuses, no alibis! As it should be! You do your part, I know you will, and your rifle, cartridge, and of course most important, your bullet will do their part! You know this before going, because you have done your homework!

I tell you the little 9.3 B&M is a trick! I don't know when mine will actually get out to the field, I have so many things to do in the field, but when it does I have no doubt it will do it's part if I do mine! I am very impressed with it. Now I have 2 9.3X338s and a 9.3 Ultra I don't know what to do with, because the 9.3 B&M is far superior to either when all things are accounted for, size, weight, length and these sort of things. It's a winner!

I have been thinking about the "Screw Bullet" of Sams. I don't think I have left twists, but that would be an interesting phenomena, unscrewing itself after or before or during terminal penetration? WOnder how the math works with that? Minus, plus, or plus then minus? Hmmmmmm??????

Hey, glad you went over a visited the little website, I am kinda proud of that myself. I enjoyed doing it, and still working on some things for it. Great thing, I can change, add, or do anything with it anytime I want. It's been fun to put it together. Thanks

Michael

Some thoughts on the coming meplat size test. Some has been mentioned about the weight, the velocity, twist and such. All very excellent concerns, mine too. Sam has the weight close, the only difference is going to be a few grs here and there, nothing that will make a difference over all. I really don't care if they are light or heavy, because it's not a test of the bullet, but the meplat size. Being .500 caliber I will work with either the 50 B&M or the 500 MDM, both having 1:12 twist rates, and regardless of either I will be shooting for a nominal velocity of 2150 fps + or minus a bit at the muzzle. Testing at my 22 yd mark.

Now when we get down to 60% meplat and less I think we will start to see a decrease in straight line penetration to a point of course. At the 1:12 twist rate, it should help stabilize better of course. But we will see a difference either at 60 or 55 I believe, probably 55%. Once all this is done with the 1:12 twist rate, it would be interesting to do again those smaller meplat sizes in a 1:18 twist barrels that I do have in .500 caliber, the first ones before making the switch to 1:12. This would only be for probably the 55% and 50% meplats, maybe 60%. I think a big difference in 1:12 and 1:18 would show up then. But, this is separate from the first and foremost meplat test, to be done later if I can talk Sam into a few more. But don't want to even make any until the first test is done and we learn if the fall off is at 60 or 55%!

Just some thoughts.

M

Michael,

You want a left hand screw bullet! I can do that for you. Give me the time and the tools I can do most anything.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

You want a left hand screw bullet! I can do that for you. Give me the time and the tools I can do most anything.

Sam

You are a dangerous man with a bastard file!

M

OK, I put in a request "upstairs" for the logo change to a new flat nose big bore cartridge this morning. Under "Forum Suggestions, and Requests" I think those who would like this maybe go up there, lend some support and suggestions????

http://forums.accuratereloadin...401038531#9401038531


Michael[/QUOTE]


OK, I am going to need some help up there it looks like.

In the meantime here are my thoughts, of course we all would like our pet cartridges there right? Me too, I happen to think that the 500 MDM is about the most handsome of all, and should be there. But, that would just not be fair or right to other very worthy causes. I can only suggest that a nice photo of some of the cartridges that have either been developed here at AR or has strong ties to AR be the new logo. What comes to my mind of course, is Jeffes 458 AR, my 458 B&M, one of Hubels, Robs 600 OK, RIPs Tantanka and maybe more lined up all loaded with proper flat nose solids, and representing the best we have to offer and improvements over the past!

Now that will not be so easy to put together, but I think that is it!

If that can't be, then I would vote for something like a 458 Lott, loaded with a proper Flat nose. It's the standard by which most things are compared. Not the best, just a recognized standard.

Now the various big bore double cartridges are great, and handsome to boot. But Doubles already have a forum unto themselves, it should be a bolt gun cartridge. No offense Mike!

But unless I get some help up there we can forget it. I am but one voice and no one is listening!

HEH.

M

This would be a biiiiig test. The same test with a slow twist barrel would be intriguing. See what is the minimum % meplat size for different twists on different diameter bullets. I guess start with the obvious .500 and work down to 458 ect. 1:18, 1:16, 1:14, 1:12, 1:10
We need to get some grant money for you for such a big test. Apply for research funding from the Barry Soetoro admin to see how global warming affects bullet rotation in animals or something.

God bless the USA and Michael458

Hum…didn’t think about you rerunning the test with 18” twist rate…definitely sounds like a good test. You’ll need to match the rifles pretty closely so does this mean you’ll need to use a couple of rifles chambered for the “old” 500 MDM cartridge?

Jim

I don't think there is reason to run the test with 1:18 with any of the meplats of 65% or better. That really would be a waste, as I already know what the outcome is there, they will track true and straight with meplat of 65% or more. I would want to test the 55 and 60% meplats again with the 1:18 is all.

None of the 500 MDMs have ever been built with a 1:18. All have 1:12. I still have two 50 B&Ms, the first two original prototype rifles that are 1:18. One of those went on the first outing with the prototype cartridge, the first 2 inch cartridge now designated the 50 B&M SA for the DPMS guns. That was the rifle used in 2006 in South Africa. This rifle still exists in it's prototype configuration, still the 2 inch 50 B&M SA. Even the first several current 50 B&Ms are 1:18. The change to 1:12 came in 2007 when I started working on the solids and found out round nose and slow twists are a real bad combination. Then going to the flat nose and working thru about 5 or 6 generations of design to where we are now the 1;12 twist was an excellent move, and glad it was available. Still, even the 1:18 guns do very good and more than good enough with the 65% meplat bullets. At least I did not have to trash the 1:18 guns or delegate them to expanding bullets only.

Let me get the bullets in hand before I decide exactly how I want to run them. Boomy currently has my most favorite 50 B&M and won't send it back!

HEH HEH.

But if my luck holds out I might just have a really fine Maple stocked 50 B&M by next week????

RIP might have a brand new 458 B&M 1:10 to start test work with too next week, if we get lucky???????

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
This would be a biiiiig test. The same test with a slow twist barrel would be intriguing. See what is the minimum % meplat size for different twists on different diameter bullets. I guess start with the obvious .500 and work down to 458 ect. 1:18, 1:16, 1:14, 1:12, 1:10
We need to get some grant money for you for such a big test. Apply for research funding from the Barry Soetoro admin to see how global warming affects bullet rotation in animals or something.

God bless the USA and Michael458

Boomy

Thank You, Thank You very much! PLEASE, no more coffee for you today!!!!!!!!!!!!



M

If I'm going to have to make the bullets I want to be in on the grant money. HEH!

I always believed my cast bullet LFN 420 was the best medicine for my 45-70. After reading all this I am going to change my opinion about the hard cast bullets. Penetration is also much lesser than what the testers got at the various Linebaugh seminars. What's going on... with these bullets? Do you have tested the Garrets loads already? Another bullet that get very good reports is the Nosler partition 300 grain. Is this one tested?
Thanks everybody for all the efforts, time and money spend for getting all these results and sharing them with the rest off the world.
David (Belgium)

Hey David

Hard cast bullets one has to be very careful of velocity. Expansion reduces penetration, shearing of the sharp meplat reduces penetration, and other factors. I am not a cast bullet expert by any stretch. I have used and shot a lot of them with great success, and sometimes I have asked more of them than what they could give, and I made some mistakes. We have some extremely good bullets out today in 45/70, far better than ever before. I have not tested or used the 300 Nosler Partition.

I think today if I were looking for some deeper penetration for the 45/70, if a 400 Barnes Buster shoots well in your gun I can't see where you could go too wrong with that. For expanding, I am sure the 300 Nosler would do well, but there are several more that would do as well, a 350 Hornady is excellent.

Thanks
Michael

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
If I'm going to have to make the bullets I want to be in on the grant money. HEH!

I think Micheal will be in charge of passing out the pork money. I am vying for a cushy advisory position

OK No more coffee today

Boomy

No worries, just get the grant money and send it to me, I will take care of everything.

Trust me! Just make sure your name is on the grant, and send it to me when you get it.

I have it under control.



M

Maybe a military contract for "Green bullet" research. Anyone have any good strings they can pull? Pork is the some of the only way to get rich quick these days.
I think we would need a 80% meplat to get some good stability in a 200 grain aluminum .500" bullet. That will make more sense than a 3" 6.5 knitting needle bullet

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I don't think there is reason to run the test with 1:18 with any of the meplats of 65% or better. That really would be a waste, as I already know what the outcome is there, they will track true and straight with meplat of 65% or more. I would want to test the 55 and 60% meplats again with the 1:18 is all.

None of the 500 MDMs have ever been built with a 1:18. All have 1:12. I still have two 50 B&Ms, the first two original prototype rifles that are 1:18. One of those went on the first outing with the prototype cartridge, the first 2 inch cartridge now designated the 50 B&M SA for the DPMS guns. That was the rifle used in 2006 in South Africa. This rifle still exists in it's prototype configuration, still the 2 inch 50 B&M SA. Even the first several current 50 B&Ms are 1:18. The change to 1:12 came in 2007 when I started working on the solids and found out round nose and slow twists are a real bad combination. Then going to the flat nose and working thru about 5 or 6 generations of design to where we are now the 1;12 twist was an excellent move, and glad it was available. Still, even the 1:18 guns do very good and more than good enough with the 65% meplat bullets. At least I did not have to trash the 1:18 guns or delegate them to expanding bullets only.

Michael

Oops my mistake about the 500s…good to hear none had the 18” twist rate barrels though.

Ok…how about this:
1) 1st phase run using 50 B&M w/1:12” twist rate…all bullet meplats.
2) 2nd phase run using 50 B&M w/1:18” twist rate…50%, 55%, and 60% meplats only.
3) 3rd phase run using 500 MDM w/1:12” twist rate…50%, 55%, and 60% meplats fired at maximum velocity at safe pressure level.
The 3rd phase test run would settle the question as to whether increased velocity plus a faster twist rate can overcome an undersized meplat for straight-line within mass penetration stability and if so what the minimum meplat percentage as well as a representative velocity level is for that to take place. Plus Sam will only need to supply an additional 12 bullets to complete this 3-phase test.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Let me get the bullets in hand before I decide exactly how I want to run them. Boomy currently has my most favorite 50 B&M and won't send it back!

HEH HEH.

But if my luck holds out I might just have a really fine Maple stocked 50 B&M by next week????

RIP might have a brand new 458 B&M 1:10 to start test work with too next week, if we get lucky???????

Michael

Now that is real a bummer as that 50 B&M was my favorite rifle also!!! Good to hear about the new incoming 50 as well as RIP’s 458…both will provide us with great test results.

Look at our New Logo at the top of the page! WOW. Representing the New FLAT NOSE REVOLUTION, along with a Non Conventional to the left, and to top it all off, the greatest of all game animals, Buffalo in the background.

Great!

Michael

Hi Michael,
I can get the Barnes buster so I'll try them.
Concerning the Partition. On the Marlin forum is told that it's penetration is as good or better than cast WLN bullets. They rave the bullet. Someone took it to Africa and had very good results with it even on larger beasts. Nosler was going to discontinue the bullet, but they started a poll and got Nosler to do some production runs on them in the future.
Maybe I can send you some for testing, if you got the spare time.
Keep up the good work,
David

I like the new logo !

New logo looks great, much better than before.

On the new logo!...great choice...thanks Don.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
On the new logo!...great choice...thanks Don.

We aim to please.

Sometimes we hit the target.

Glad you guys are happy.
Don

Thanks DRG for the logo. I think no reasonable individual would have a big issue with this. It looks good and very appropriate.

Michael

Hopefully back to the business of testing some bullets, this week? Maybe? Hoping? Trying?

Did manage to get some test bullets loaded this weekend! Finally the 9.3's that Sam sent to test are loaded and waiting.



The 318 gr and the 270 gr are too long for the 9.3 B&M's magazine, but chamber perfectly. The 265 and the 230 are perfect for the 9.3 B&M, and my favorite, might have our custom bullet guy make a run of these if they do well, and I suspect they will since all have proper meplat sizes!

I will be checking these for feeding too in the Winchesters.

Dave Bush, where are You? These have excellent meplats, they should do an excellent job!

Michael

Reinventing the wheel again boys ...?? Maybe I should just forward the drawings and save you the time?

Agent J!

Good to see you back! Where were you when we were all crying about the Barnes Banded 9.3 being so terrible? Yeah, drawing would probably make it easier, and Sam has been wearing out his bastard files on these. It almost looks like Sam's bullet is close to the same as yours anyway. He's pretty good with that bastard file.

Excellent looking bullet J. Did not know you had some 9.3s? Of course I did not ask either, should have known, "old timers" kicking in.

It certainly appears we are treading some of the same ground. Only the East Coast bullets made a few at a time for test purposes only, with a bastard file. HEH!

Michael