fourbore,

just jump back in time here about 16 months. Boomie, Ed and I did a 3" 577 by swaging a small belt on a 550 Gibbs basic case and shortening it to 3". We took it with us to Vegas and had a chat with Ruger and Hornady. Hornady showed some interest in it and my 550 Gibbs, but Ruger had a problem with it. Likely, the inadequate dimensions of the MKII RSM which will not work with a Gibbs-sized case.
That is the cool thing of the PH action, it is scaled around the Gibbs.

RE the 416, I have one; but chose to take my CZ 450 Dakota to hunt Buffalo at Christmas last year. 500gr bullet at 2370fps. The buff did not seem to mind the bigger calber or excess bullet weight.

Rich
Buff Killer

Ok- My case can be loaded at 2100, 1500, it is designed
for wide range of speed. It fits in any gun that merits
the term 'Big Game Rifle', like Ruger,Enfield,BBK,NEF
that I have it in and CZ,BRNO, and MRC PH, Ruger #1 which
I will have it in those two later.
It does everything at lower pressures. It extracts easier
as shown by using in NEF and extracting with fingers or
just tipping the gun up. The reasons it does compared
to other cases is total taper of the sides .027" versus .011"
and the proper inside corner radius shown in the picture above.

I do stupid things and getting talked into doing the case
on Gibbs, because potentially a truckload of cases to
work with, a big snafu on my part.

There will be picture later that will show one of reasons
why I stopped.Ed

Ed, You are 100% correct and I have one of your 585 right here to back that up. Since opinions are like (well you know) I have one too. IMHO: your rim, belt and taper are ideal - its the goal of 2700 fps that I question.

If the case were 3 inch and the load promoted were 2100 fps/750 gr and the name was 577 Hubel. The legacy be clear. The purpose for hunting. Even though few would, its a realistic fantasy. The typical rifle weight same as a 577 double. The proper weight and NO muzzle brake a viable option.

A 577 with Hornady and Ruger, that would something!

How about Hornady offering 577NE ammo and components while we are at it. I dont have a 577 , but I bet affordable offerings would follow.

Given the options today. the 585HE would be my choice for a PH, if I can do one. Maybe? I assume I could chamber for 3 1/4 inch and cut my cases to 3 inch load to H&H levels.

The 577 on the Gibs case is not ideal but it does fill a niche albeit a small one.
Some of the goals of the 577 BME was to be a tribute to the 577 NE 3", work in the CZ and be formed from avaliabe brass. Since the 600 OK and the 577NE have the same casehead and 600 OK brass is avaliable using 577NE dimensions on that case makes some sense AND it works in a CZ.
Good ideas will survive and others will die away. Time will tell.
Ed is a generous man and has a great case.
This is in a lot of ways about what floats your boat, having fun and being safe.
There are a few ways to scratch the 577 itch and that is good.
I like the idea of a CZ bolt action 577 that is like the original in performance.
This place is great for us big bore nuts

Got thumbhole stock on 585HE NEF, weighted 15 lbs,
barrel ported. 750gr at 2700, don't need sissy pad.
and doesn't bang fingers amd slug at 2100 I can
shoot one handed.

In picture- made with Gibbs left one(unfired), 585HE right.
585HE in pic fired about 20 times..Ed

Some mention only 577 power needec from bolt gun.
After trying a variety of lengths I
made up a short 585 2.7 inch case from Gibbs brass,
that headspaces on the mouth and extractor, like
the 50 B&M Mag posted on here and the 50 Ram and
many others that have been publicized. This may
be the first of this design in 577/585.
Put 585 barrel on my Ruger77, chambered it. fired it,
650gr 2300, 750gr 2100. Pressures About 50,000 psi.
One case fired 25 times, still good,extracts easy,
good firing pin dent. Imade chamber exactly 2.7".
Case .oo5" over, snug fit.Loads I tested had
3.3" overall length.

It works in any gun with good extractor and tight chamber.
Case holds 135 gr ball powder to base of 650 gr Woodleigh.
This get the 577 power in any bolt gun that isn't of
a real long long design like Enfield.LIKE- CZ,Ruger,PH.
It will do in shorter than Enfield, LIKE Mausers, WIN70,
some leverguns,etc, mil surplus, and a dozen other guns.
Couple guys are going to do it in a MN.

I will get exact reamer done soon for guys to use,
and can get cases to set up. No run of brass
has to be made. This isn't neccessarily to replace
my 585HE long case, just to supplement it and get guys
extra guns shooting from stuff they already have or can
get,and a supply of cases to get used up.
Everbody needs two 577/585s...Ed

Ed...another question/comment on your 585 HE.

I have an extra Sav 110 LA with a 3.65", 375 H&H/RUM mag. While I am waiting for your 585 case to arrive I've been playing with Rigby and Gibbs cases, seeing if/how/what needs to be done to get them to work for another switch barrel setup.

There is plenty of room for a Rigby based cartridge 3 down, I've already worked that one out for the 500 AH and have the mag ready.

A Gibbs 0.620" based/sized cartridge at 3.60" OAL will do 2 down with a new or slightly modified follower for the fatter case or 3-4 down by doing a pregnant stock ala some CZ and Mauser designs...not sure I need more than 3 shots to kill a paper target, rock, beer can or water filled milk jug or not, but it is a nice problem to think about and solve.

But more importantly to me, it looks like your 585 will also work in the Sav 110 LA as long as the bullet is seated to 3.60" COAL to fit the slightly longer mag, full length case OAL, OR by trimming 0.250" to keep the relationship to your 585 "Long" the same. I can also use your 585 HE "Long" dies, so I can get this project off the ground at a much lower cost that doing the 34" NEF, plus get the 500 AH done also.

Calculated loss in H2O for the 585 HE at 3.60" COAL is only about 17 gr, 160 gr H2O, compared to the "Long" 3.85" COAL, AND it will probably work in my already modified mag without any extra futzing work.


My question is have you or anyone you know of used/built a Savage LA for a case 585 HE size???


Other than the small extractor and possiblility of needing to reduce the rim OD to 0.585" -0.600", do you see any other problems with doing a 585 HE chamber using the Sav 110 LA action and keeping the pressures down in the 45KPSI range???


Do you think it is feasible???

I've already ran into some resistance concerning using a 338 Lapua based larger caliber cartridge in the Savage as it wasn't designed for anything larger than a 0.532" case, and I won't argue that the action has some weak points that need to be considered carefully...pushing the 338 Lapua's 68KPSI in the Savage platform is getting TOO close to the edge...Simply reducing the pressure to 60KPSI would be more reasonable. But I'm thinking that the inherent strength of the 585 HE case, after seeing a sectioned one, would keep it well within the safety zone if the pressures are kept down in the range that is safe in the NEF. We're talking about a BIG, heavy bullet at modist pressures and velocities that still has plenty of killing power.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Luck on your projects.

First of all Savage 110C/and newer, strong as any action
out there. In fact it has slightly more lug shear rating
than big Enfield or big Ruger or CZ.Handle high pressures fine
Its bolt is big enough to open for Gibbs size case heads.

But my long 585HE will get over 12,000 ft lbs with only
55k pressures with right powder.So you can do it
in any thing with length. Like I did with NEF getting
10,000 ft lbs, 40k loads, and 8000 ft lbs with 30k loads.

Now the length. One days work with a Savage and it will
handle 3.9" long cases easy. Same things that have to be
done, I and other guys have done to the 210 Savage for
our 12ga long cases. Change bolt stop. Open port .03-4"
which still leaves bridge 1.1-1.2" long. And lengthen mag box
and opening.The trigger and sear assembly are way back with
big space between it and mag box and opening.Easy to work on.
The 110 is as big as the 12ga shotgun 210 we are
doing the 12GA FH in.I rather have Savage for
big cases than REM or WIN.When I get a Savage here
I plan on doing one. Case capcity of mine is over 205gr
H2O, holds 180 gr ball powder compressed under 650 gr. Ed

That's what I thought!!! While the reasons given for not using a Sav 110 were sound and correct from one point of view, as usual, it was from a specific perspective and left out all the rest of the Enchilada.

I have studied the Sav 110 action from one end to the other, measuring etc., and other than not knowing for sure what the metalurgy is, I couldn't see any problems that didn't have an easily solution...keeping the pressure down being the best.

This being a wildcat and a full reloading proposition, it is up to the user to keep his head screwed on right.

I already ground a bolt head ID out to 0.605" to fit the Rigby case and it will go out to fit the Gibbs case while still leaving a thin ring of steel surrounding the case head about 0.027" thick or maybe just reducing the OD of the case rim to 0.600" and keeping the roughly 0.045" ring...that would be my first choice. There are a couple of other ways to solve this simple problem also.

I think making steel extractor might be an additonal thing to keep in mind just in case the bronze extractor doesn't have sufficient strength.

Savage just took two 300 WM mags, sectioned them and Tig'ed the opposite pieces back together to make the 375/RUM mag and if done carefully to get the maximum section lengths you can get 3.95", so that isn't much of a problem. I put to gether a crude mag using sectioned 300 WM mags then used pieces of another cut up mag sweat soldered together to lengthen the mag to 3.70". Looked a bit rough but worked great, and after painting and inside the stock it wasn't bad looking at all...

I soldered a drilled "L" bracket and drilled and tapped the receiver for a 10-24 button head screw to hold the mag in place. I would have to close off that hole and reposition plus use a #8 button head to go with the longer cartridge. On an unmodified receiver a similar mounting would be just drill and tap.

Doing a mag this way makes it much easier to swap barrels also, by getting the mag out of the way and using the scope mount to position and hold the receiver.

To get the maximum length of 3.85" over 3.60" is a lot of work...not hard...but tedious and for my application not worth the extra few f/s added velocity.

I think I might just get this project off the ground now. Going this way will save me at least $250 over doing the NEF, and I can use the 1.350" OD barrel blank.

Maybe doing this one first will help me to forget the 50 cal... ...maybe not...hahahaha...doing it this way, I can afford BOTH.

Thanks for the insights.

Luck on your projects.

One other question Ed...Did anyone try a 50 BMG or 50 BMG/Fisher with the Sav 210???

I don't have any measurements to go by, but looking at a schematic of the 210 and the bolt head, it looks like it might be workable for someone who wasn't looking to do the larger cals and just wanted a single shot 50 using a relatively cheap action. I can see there are differences in the bolt heads.

Maybe adding a thread-on "stiffener/sleeve" ring around the first 1.56" of the receiver (ala sleeving like the benchresters used to do to Rems except threaded instead of glue-on),and use a 1.5" barrel.

Looks like you could stuff a 5.5" or slightly longer OAL cartridge into maw. It would work for the cheap military ball bullets and brass anyway. Be nice if you could just swap in the 210 bolt head.

Just another hallucination while taking a drive this afternoon and thinking over my future projects.

Thanks for input.

Luck on your projects.

I have a 210 set up in 12ga FH long 3.85" case,
singleshot. and one set up in my 700HE 3.25" case,
which is bmg size base. And just changed stops under extractors
so they would close down to bmg size from 12ga size.
And 700s feed from a lengthened mag box.
Some day I will get a larger round reciever built, that will take
Savage bolt , bolt carrier. trigger, sear, etc.Like 1.6" dia.
As it is now it handles 35-40k psi ok in those two cases.ED

I redid Ruger to 2.7" case. 750gr got 2200 with
130gr of W748 ball powder. 50k pressures by
my formula.Someone check what QL shows.. H20 capacity
is 155 gr.28" bbl. And only had in 4 reloads, have to
size top half the case.The supply of basic cases
should get a quite a few into 577/585 land.
In regular length guns.Ed

What is the loaded overall length, seating depth and bullet length???

I ran some numbers with a 750 gr x 1" bullet, 3.3" OAL, 28" BBL, and AA2460 with my LD5 and came up with 95% load of 121.5 gr, 2238 f/s, 52149 CUP.

A 1.1" bullet x 750 gr, 3.3" OAL, 2.7" case, 0.500" seat depth, 28" bbl, 100% load of 121 gr WW748, 1965 f/s, 41297 CUP.

FWIW

Luck on your projects.


Where are the .585" bullets???

Anyone casting hard lead bullets???

No problemo...The Load from a Disk program uses the same or similar calculations as Powley I think...I check against one of my old Powley programs and a newer windowing version that is available online several places and the results are always very close. It's a freebee and can be run online.

http://kwk.us/powley.html

LD5 doesn't always cover all the powders in the same burning rangeS...it didn't have ww748 in the first one so I used the AA2460 as it and AA2230 give the best case life and velocities in my 458 WM and 45-70,90.

AA2460 is just above 748 on my burn rate chart. BLC-2, (two steps above 748) gave the lowest pressure, 100% load, but also about 150 f/s lower velocity.

Your right about the powders...lots to pick from and you would go broke and run out of time testing them all.

To use any of the Powley prograns I need the bullet length, case length, case H20, bullet weight and size, and cartridge OAL, and barrel length. Powley only gives data for IMR powders, but you know that already.

One of these days I'm gonna pop for QL.

I keep looking for a program(s) that will calculate for other variables or allow fudging for twist, barrel variations, burning rate variations, etc., or one you can work backwards from chrono numbers and other known variables and come up with relatively close numbers.

Luck on your projects.

A 700 Nyati of sorts would be kinda fun on the PH action.

Skim off 7 thou off the 50 BMG casehead to measure .785" and make the rim .765" as to fit the PH bolt and not have too much rebate..only 10 thou. Have 15 thou body taper over a little over 2" of body length. .75" long neck, say 35 degree 20 thou shoulders and 3.25" case to match the length of the 700NE H&H

To recap...Made from 50 BMG brass
3.25" long (Like the 700 NE)
.765" rim to fit the PH bolt
.785" casehead (Like the 700 NE)
15 thou body taper
20 thou shoulders
.75" long neck
Hold on tight!
should have comperable capacity to the 700 NE H&H

add a belt .. and you have the 700 DA .. and hence my interest in the ph in the first place

Use the Full length 3.85 .50BMG case blown out to .700 with a .030 shoulder and you have the .700RLG which I built about 10 years ago. I used a Mcmillan action and drove some 1000gr bullets well over 3300fps with it. Fritz 454 made me some brass bullets for it and we had a blast with it. Virtually identical ballistics to the 12GAfH in Full power form.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
add a belt .. and you have the 700 DA .. and hence my interest in the ph in the first place

Yes...

This would be a supersize 500 AR
A different flavor to the same objective, skinning cats ect...I think a shouldered version would be easier to form brass.

Just a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Use the Full length 3.85 .50BMG case blown out to .700 with a .030 shoulder and you have the .700RLG which I built about 10 years ago. I used a Mcmillan action and drove some 1000gr bullets well over 3300fps with it. Fritz 454 made me some brass bullets for it and we had a blast with it. Virtually identical ballistics to the 12GAfH in Full power form.-Rob

That would be cool as heck but this would be another way to max out what could be done in the PH action. Basicly a rimless 700 NE

Rob, IIRC the .700 bore riders I made you were a tad over 2000 gr. Basically took a barnes 50 bmg (800 gr) bullet and scaled it up as I remember. There were some 1000 gr fn solids as well either would penetrate an ele trunk to tail and split 3-5 feet of oak logs and aside from rifling marks could be reloaded.
Either of them should have left an impression on you when you touched em off

Just as easy to do my 700H 3.25.. Bunch of cases done,
has good taper, Reamers ready.. And they're working on dies.
And it is .770" Rim -.775" base- .790 belt- .740 mouth.
Has .035" of total taper both sides, extracts great, as I jusr
proved in another gun. I just got one firing in a second
mono-blocked NEF with a 32" barrel. Extracts easy with
my fingers.Picture soon.

So now I have NEFs in 585HE-700H 3.25-12ga FH- 8GA FH and 10ga.
Also now I have 4 guns in my 700HEs.Ed

Ed I will be doing just that once the MRC PH actions are in. I don't know if I'll ever shoot it but I already have a barrel and a good piece of walnut for it so why not. I'll need to throat it deep to take the long bullets and single load but my best guess is 2000 gr at 16-1800 fps. Should be good for gophers Maybe even a rabit provided a broadside shot.

Here is pic of 700H 3.25" in a NEF with
32" 700cal barrel mono-blocked in.
Got 825 gr up to 2400 ok. It is on the original
NEF 12GA FH SB2 alloy frame, as that one has
beefed up hammer for big bmg size primers.
Gun total weight is 16 lbs. Muzzle is 1.15".
It is coned breach just like 585HE. Slower(2000fps)
loadings, cases come out with fingers.ED

Ed,

Would a Henry Martini action work for any of your cartridges? I'm most interested in the .585 but the 12GA FH isn't out of the question.

I've located a few in .577/450 and also the police 14 gauge, some with thumb cut, some without. And several manufacturers too, if that makes a difference.

Regards!

I got a 12-14ga Greener action here.
The Greener-Martini 12-14 ga will do 3" brass 12g cases
with slug sticking out and 3.5" plastic 12ga ones,
but not our long ones.I've tried. They are the best looking
old timey guns there ever was. And I may do one also,
but in my 585HE. They will work for that fine.Ed

Got 700 H 3.25 in PH- setup thumbhole stock temporarily as
a singleshot to test. Fired test load of 825gr at
3000 fps. 65,000 psi. Extracted ok.1st fired outside factory.
Now it is strong and safe, as I set up the third bearing
bolt lug on the heavy bolt handle base. Shear rating
of all 3 lugs about 56,000 lbs. Test load thrust 21,000 lbs.
It was just a one time test load with a big case.
Normal max loads for 700H in PH will be 825gr
at 2850 and 1000gr at 2700.Hunting loads about 24-2500.
I will get the mag parts built next few weeks to hold
700 cases singlestack with 2 down, one in chamber.
In pic you see 700 case in bolt behind extractor
halfway into chamber.Second picture is action with couple
585HE cases in mag, to check the feed. They fed ok up into
reciever with couple minutes work on the ramp and mag box..Ed

Got single stack mag figured out for 12GA FH and
my 700H 3.25 in PH. I fit a bolt action 12ga
box mag and its follower and spring
inside the PH mag box. Easy to fit in metal box,
and permanently mounted to PH metal box.
Holds 2 down. That way feed lips already a working
design. And opened back of 12ga box for longer case
like I did with my 700 in Savage 210. Added info-
It don't work the best. Will try another idea. Also work
for anyone doing a PH in 12ga FH if they aren't
loaded too long or with 3.5" RMC cases. Here is picture
PH from the bottom showing its size.You can see in pic
there still is room to make box longer yet.
And the feed port can be longer.Ed

Still working on a the mag box. Waiting on parts.
Here is picture of the 585 Short Mag Express in my Ruger.
It is the 2.7" 585 case that headspaces on the extractor
and the case mouth. I got a guy eyeballing the gun and
others getting barrels to do there own regular
length 3.3" actions. Ed

Friend got the 585 short case in the Ruger 77
from me and bunch cases.

Made himself a resize die. Loaded a bunch and he
will load more and he is going deer hunting with it.

Got a name and listed in Ammoguide - 585 Short HE.
Next ones probably will be Mausers and WIN,
as soon as barrels get rounded up by various
guys that want a 585 in little actions.

I got magazine box done for the 700H in the PH action,
And it feeds great. I copied the layout for the 12ga
box magazines used in 12ga bolt guns. I used 2 of the
PH metal mag boxes, with one riveted inside the other
and extended up about .20" to make a single stack,
center feed setup. To fit inside box into outside box
I cut off the back of one and reversed it. Perfect
fit and width.I then made the feed lips on the box to
be like they are on the 12ga box,used follower/spring from
the Savage 210 12ga. Have pics soon of box and
the big case feeding.Ed

Here are pictures of the PH single stack magbox holding
a 700H 3.25" case and the MRC PH feeding a case
from the magbox. It slips up under the extractor
and feeds great. The feed lips hold case angled
up a little, when bolt is pulled back so that when
bolt is pushed forward it picks up case and case
goes into reciever, then the chamber without
hanging up. In other words when bolt starts forward it
is pointed into reciever like a properly working
single stack shotgun mag works. Hooray. Ed

I thinned up the follower I'm using in the PH mag
for my 700 and can load two in from the bottom now
and close the floorplate.I'm getting another guys
PH he had reserved, for future work so I don't
have toswitch 585 and 700 on same action.My 585HE on
the NEf is doing fine.It is a real gem of a gun..Ed

I got a bunch of 700HE 3.25" and 585HE dies sets
here now with some reamers. In the picture is some
of the 700 stuff. There are 4 700 die sets here
now and 4 reamers. And more coming.
Got 4 585HE dies and more coming too.

On my 585 Short HE we got two shooting in a
older Ruger 77 and an Enfield. Soon a bunch
more in another Ruger, WINs, Savage, some
Mausers.It work in regular length actions.
Soon have reamers for 585 Short HE.
And now have a huge supply of cases.Ed

Here is picture of a FB I found that I put
my 585HE in. It didn't need any work on the
feed trough to feed. 585 case shown in it.
In fact the trough is big enough
and the action big enough for 600NE, 3.5" 20ga
brass, 3.5" 16ga FH, my 700 HE long case.
I reworked a NEF stock to it, as I'm not
a stockmaker.Nice action.Ed

Just talked on phone-

Only has 2 or 3 of big Model L pictured.
May have more in spring.

Does have a few Model S, next size down,which will
do for cases as big as my 585HE.I got
an S model coming for 585 and going to
put bigger in the big Model L.

FBW- Leo Fix- Rapid City, MI-
1-231-590-7391

Here is picture of the FBW falling block with my
700HE long case in it.This falling block is 1.5"
wide, with a 1.125" wide breach block.
The sides are .187" thick next to breach block.
This compares to about .165" say for a Browning
B-87, Win copy. The feed trough would work with
12ga size rim if some work was done on the top
of the hammer. This has a barrel thread length of
1.005", thread diameter of 1.125" for good
strength. Ed

I getting autoloader set up for my 585 HE long case.
Also be a switch barrel to test 12ga smoothbore
3.5" hopped up slugs loads with original barrel.
It is originally a 3.5" 12ga autoloader I've reworked
the stroke and have a barrel extension coming to add
585 28" barrel. Gun is weighted, thick double pad.
We are going to see how mild 585 HE loads of
9,000 ft lbs work in autoloader.Ed

I got a FBW Model S now putting my
585HE barrel in it. Going to use
bigger Model L for my 700HE and
a 20ga 3.5" switchbarrel.Working with
Model S shows that my 585 goes into a
Ruger #1 easy, which I will do later.Ed

Here is pic of my two FBWs in my long 585HE.
Top is Model L in one piece stock, my invention,
an idea copied from my 4bore in one piece stock.
I am doing 2nd L in 3.5" 20ga.Same kind of stock.
Bottom is Model S with regular style, two
piece stock.ED

How about this trex..

When I made the 16ga FH from BMG cases, I had
cases partly swaged and worked down and did
the following. I'm always asked if I can do a
bottleneck case.. So I expanded a swaged and
worked down case to .585" bore and we now
have the 585 Hubel Super Magnum. Case shortened
to 3.7", base .770", shoulder .720". It has a
good taper like the Gibbs.Case has a
look of a scaled up Gibbs which is in the
picture for comparison and setting one up in
an Enfield with added lugs like I did for
my 585H 3.25. Holds over 240 gr ball powder,
get over 16,000 ft lbs if you want.
This will be my only bottleneck case.
And if it has the sides straight with
blown out shoulders it is 585HSM IMP.
In picture a Gibbs for comparison.
I could even make it feed from a PH with
mods and mag box work.They are getting
PHs done now for the guys.ED

quote:

over 16,000 ft

Wow...!

750 gr @ 3100 fps ???