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Last week I started a poll here on AR about the most common rifle type used for both black and brown bear hunting in Alaska. For all of the "techno dweebs" out there they will be disappointed. It wasn't a very technical poll. The results as of now are: Win 70 = 14 Rem 700 = 9 Rug 77 = 10 Misc. = 8 My goal here was to see if hunters are hunting the last frontier with Remington 700 rifles, and hunting brown and or black bears with them. If you believe what is read on the Africa forum they will tell you that a 700 is a sub standard, unreliable, dangerous piece of shit. Personally I have the exact opposite opinion of the 700. I still have the 700 BDL that I got for a graduation present, plus two more. I find them to be VERY accurate, and have NEVER personally experienced anything that would make me think they were anything but great rifles. Look how many custom gun makers use the 700 action as the basis of their rifles. I have 2 friends who hunted brown bear in Cold Bay, AK last May. They had an outstanding hunt, both of them taking huge bears one taping out at 10'2" the other at 10'6". These hunters are very experienced, have hunted the world and can buy any rifle they want. They both used Remington 700's in 338 WN. Why would the Rem 700 be used in North Americas dangerous game area with apparent frequency, and we dont have stories of dead hunters eaten by bears with nothing left but their Rem 700 rifle? I dont want to start a "African animals dads can beat up North American animals dads" debate. I think we can ALL agree a large bear in the alders is DG just as a lion in the tall grass is DG. I guess I have used them too much to believe that they are anything but accurate, reliable, and my rifle of choice. KC  D | ||
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The M700 is most popular rifle sold in the US by a huge margin and it comes in third by Alaska bear hunters. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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iv always used a larg caliber 375 h&h or 458 of some sort in a ruger 1 for most of my north american hunting but a few years back i switched to blaser bolts and doubles rifles. with the odd handgun thrown in. iv also hunted with a custom made 8 bore,10 bore and 2 bore rifles. all muzzel loading. | |||
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Polls are polls...........try one with the guides for big bear and see what the most common make and model is........... The fact that the Mod 700 was common in your poll is no big shock since, as was pointed out, it is so commonly owned by American hunters. If I took a poll about the most common bear rifle where I live it might be the old Savage Model 99 or British Enfield........doesn't really prove a point. Many of us hunt bears once in a while. Few of us hunt the big bears all the time and even less hunt them for several months of the year, year after year, and are exposed to multiple bear kills. I am far more interested in what the guys that routinely hunt big black bears, grizzlies and browns pack.....the people that have to sort things out when the guests don't quite stick the bullet where it should have gone. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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Oh boy, here we go again. Name a rifle and we'll find piles of negatives towards any of them. They all make some good ones. Reloader | |||
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I saw your poll. I don't hunt with a Remmy as I have better guns. To each his own. Join the NRA | |||
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One thing you will notice is that I do not put down any one particular type of rifle. I simply like Remington 700's. Putting down any rifle and I mean ANY rifle, is childish and makes one very susceptible to a barrage of flack. Best of luck to you SAVAGE 99 this season.  | |||
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Hot core- You have WAY too much time on your hands. Basically it boils down to this....if you like it use it. If its not reliable I'm sure you wouldn't use it and I wouldn't recomend using it either. No matter what make it is. Personally I wouldn't think twice about using a remington 700, matter of fact I used to have particularly accurate 7mm rem mag in the adl. Actually the only thing I would change to a rem is the extractor, not that the factory extractor hasn't proven to work, just that the only flaw I ever had with my 700 ADL was when the extractor failed one time. I have seen a few people do the sako styel conversion but the neatest I have seen yet uses an AR15 extractor. I use mainly winchester 70 classics as my go to hunting rifles. I have one in 300 win and anther in 375 H&H. They have both proven accurate and very reliable. They also have the same safety setup as my M98 which helps keep things simple. I kind of like the three position safeties, mainly personal prefference. From what I have seen alaskans mainly use whatever rifle they want and are happy with them. Caliber and accuracty being the main deciding factors. This is generally the way it is with people who mainly hunt. Take for example my buddy who shoots everything with a very beat up Ruger 77 tang safety in 300 win. People who read more than they hunt or fiddle around at ranges and such are much more likely to develope these educated oppinions on guns and propogate these kind of threads. At the end of the day, its YOU and your gun in the alders searching for that bear. Your own confidence in your gun is what is important, not how someone else might feel about it. I walked into some thick brush this afternoon looking for a big bear, found a still wet set of tracks going up the bank, we stopped for a quick look around. I had my superlight custom m70 in 375 and the guy backing me up had a push feed ruger 77 mkI in 300 win, it didn't matter to me that his gun was a push feed in the least. It didn't matter that it has worked flawlessly for over 20 years, and didn't matter that I have seen it kill just about everying alaska has to offer. What mattered was that I had 100 percent confidence in the man holding it and in his judgement. Anyone else's oppionion didn't matter right then. I won't even mention that I would have been just as comfortable with my guide gun in 45/70, that would really stir up the african guys! | |||
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Hey Bear, I agree! Very well said and I still agree. Same here. Mine is one of the very first Stainless and Synthetic Blind Magazine(ADL) versions. I'll stick with the current Extractor. I sure don't want to ruin the "3-rings of steel" design concept. I also agree here. A person should use whatever they want. I prefer the Remington or Weatherby Safety, but as you mention it is simply a personal preference. Same here in the Southeastern USA. That is why I prefer the Remingtons - accuracy at long distance - without requiring a bunch of unnecessary aftermarket rework or add-ons. I'll have to give that some thought. You may be on to something. I base my preferences on many years of first-hand experience carrying a rifle. But, I can see where you have a point. Completely agree, even if it is a Black Bear, Hog or Deer. In agreement again. (Darn shame you all weren't carrying Remington's though, you "might" have been able to get a bullet in it.  I do like mine in 444Mar, but sure am being tempted to swap it for the new Laminated Stock and Stainless 24" barrel version. Best of luck to you from a guy with waaaaaay tooooo much time on his hands. | |||
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KC Don't discount the results of your own poll. If the Rugers are under 20 years old, most are CRF as are most of the M70's. The bulk of your misc may be Mausers, but who knows? You have two friends who hunted bears last year, the African PH's will see a couple hundred head of game shot a year, so I wouldn't be the one to argue the point with them. I haven't had a 700 Rem fail, but can see the sound theory behind the CRF guys. I have seen them fail to extract, which is worse than a feed failure to me as it is a heck of a lot faster to clear a feed jam than to run a cleaning rod down the barrel and knock a case out of the chamber. The net result is if i had a Rem in an appropriate caliber I'd hunt with it, if I was buying new, I'd see no reason to purchase anything but CRF. If I were to use a Remington I'd probably still have to go the Sako extractor mod. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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jstevens, the original M77 Ruger, tang safety, is NOT a CRF. It has a m Mauser style extractor. but the bolt does not grab the round of the top of the magazine. I love my M77, but A M70CRF or Mauser it is not. One of the PHs in my camp in Moz. carried a M700 in .416rem. We sat around the fire talking hunting & rifles one night & I asked him about the CF v push feed. He has used the rifle for 7years & in all kinds of conditions in Moz. Ran, running while loading, etc., he has nothing but confidence in the rifle & uses it for general hunting as well as backup for DG including ele. I don't think I share his enthusiasm, but then again, I have bought into the CRF for DG.  LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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From my point of view the Remmy is near or at the bottom of hunting rifles. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones. Now here are two of a matched quartet of pre 64 M70's that can hunt the world. They have reliable safeties, reliable triggers, reliable extractors, reliable ejectors and feed reliably too. From left to right a 375 HH and a 300HH. To each his own.  Join the NRA | |||
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I suppose I could repeat myself, but if you couldn't understand it the first time whats the use. Nice linoleum by the way | |||
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I've not owned any Winchester rifles but I've shot a few. The only rifles I've ever had a feeding problem with were a Browning Abolt and a Ruger M77. My Remingtons have never failed me, yet anyway. I have nothing against Winchester rifles at all, but I don't see why anyone would call a Rem. a 'dangerous piece of shit.' I could say that about Ford trucks and piss a lot of people off...or Dodge, or Chevy, or Toyota for that matter. I can see this thread going the same direction of a truck thread. What is better, Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Toyota, etc. Diehard Ford fans always latch onto the Ford marketing: Ford is number 1, we sell the most trucks and have for 29 years in Canada and the US. Well, that doesn't make them best. But it does say a lot for loyalty. Moreover, it isn't true. I lump GMC and Chevy together since many roll off the same assembly line and GM (manufacturer) has bested Ford (make) many times...even last year by 34,000 units...oh well, I'm changing the subject, sorry. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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The Remington 700 admittedly has an extractor that is somewhat weaker than comparable actions and CAN slip off of the rim of a sticky cartridge. It rarely happens. The Remington 700 is also typically more accurate than most factory rifles. The Winchester 70 (along with most '98-style Mausers), especially if it has not been reworked to cure the problem, can jam if a cartridge is placed directly into the chamber and not fed from the magazine. It rarely happens. You pay your money and take your choice. As for me, I'll take a Sako with it's strong-gripping extractor and typically easy feeding, but I have no qualms with those who choose another favorite. Neither "controlled feeding" nor "push feeding" is in reality much of an issue. BTW: Most guides' and PH's strength is in knowing their game and their territories. They typically know next to nothing about guns and ballistics. All they know is that most of them work, and whatever it is that they own (usually by default) is what they use. | |||
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I am not much of a "this is bad and this is good type person (except all mine are better than yours  ) Anyway. Have hunted with Remingtions, Rugers, Mausers, and TC's, no Winchesters. I own and hunt with what I get my grubby little hands on . Currently 2 1917 actions and 1 Swedish Mauser. All have their quirks but its about what you like. All are very accurate with current reloads. By the way, the Ruger took 19 deer with out one malfunction the Remington never jammed and was the most accurate out of the box. For me, its all about making the rifle I have work like I want it to. | |||
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Stonecreek............a rather sweeping statement that is also not very accurate. Many of the guides and PH's I know have an abundance of knowledge about firearms, cartridges and bullets. Much more so on the practical use end of things and field experience than most hunters. The majority of hunters I have met have lots of 'book' smarts about things but their actual 'life' field experience is sadly lacking. Your average hunter only hunts for a couple weeks a year, if that, and it takes them decades to acquire the field experience that a full fledged guide or PH acquires in only one or two years. And lets not forget that they get to see many different clients use various rifles, cartridges and bullets week after week on large numbers of big game animals. You make it sound like the average guide and PH is a backwoods boy from years gone by that only used a .30-30 or an old mauser for his whole life and basically doesn't know 'nothin bought nothin'. " " ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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Nice poll. The CRF thing sure gets old. My piece of shit Remington model 700 in both the 8MM mag and the new .375 ultra mag has killed more animals here in Alaska than most of you could possibly dream about. I have NEVER had a problem with either one and I treat them like shit. I just don't get all the bad mouthing. Ruger, Winchester, Savage, Weatherby, etc. All rifles perform. Yes, some may have some quirks and the biggest one that I can see with the Remington so far may be the extractor, but I haven't had a problem with one along with the other millions of Remington owners. I get tired of hearing how anything other than CRF is a piece of crap. I have fired rounds off in rapid fashion while shooting at bears, etc. and there was never a failure or jam. It gets really old on the personal attacks on non crf guns. Ask any of the many bears (black, grizz, brown), the many moose, the many caribou, the many sheep, the many goats, and the many deer that have been killed by my Remingtons, they don't seem to buy the CRF agruement either. | |||
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Northway..........I do agree with some of your points.......kinda like I get tired of my neighbour telling me how Ford trucks are so much better than Chev's. The CRF is something that was brought forward back in the mid 19--'s as being the only thing that should be considered for dangerous game. It has carried on from there and lots of guys simply repeat it as gospel with no real life experience to suggest it should be so. There is no doubt that a CRF action, that has been properly 'tuned', is the best choice for DG. It is also true that most guys with a PF action they are familiar with can go their whole life hunting the world over, inlcuding DG, and never run into a problem. Personally I do not pay much attention to any of it and I use what I like. I assume most of us do and we all have different tastes. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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Which is exactly what I want in a guide -- someone who knows his territory and his game, and understands that just about any rifle or load that hits in the right place will do. While there may be a few guides and PH's who happen to also be shooting enthusiasts, most of them regard their rifle as a basic tool and are not particularly interested in the minutia of how they work nor in the ballistics of their projectiles. Expecting a guide or PH to be an expert on guns is about like expecting them to be experts on politics, religion, or physics. While many surely do have expertise in a wide variety of life's experiences, as a group they are not typically particularly knowledgable about firearms beyond what basically works (nearly everything) and what basically doesn't (mostly guns in the hands of those who can't shoot). I mean no disrespect to anyone who is in the field of guiding; I simply mean to point out that guides are not necessarily a particularly good source of wisdom on guns and loads. | |||
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Skyline, I agree. I have used the crf in ruger and winchester and I have more jams in those than my push feed. I will not come out and say that my pf is better, just like you state the Ford vs. Chevy debate, they both work and it is your preference that will lead you to what you use. Again, I am in no position to sound off any whatever gun someone may choose, but I DO KNOW FOR A FACT that push feed rifles work and more importantly they work well for me. If I ever get to Africa to hunt cape buffalo/hippo/croc, I will be using my Remington 700 in .375 ultra mag and I will not be worrying about it jamming up. JMHO. | |||
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Fredj338 I am well aware that the tang safety Ruger isn't CRF, that's why I said the Model 70's and Rugers less than 20 years old. I think the MkII was a 1989 model, but i may be off a little. The pre 64 type 70 new model was a bit after that as well. that said if I were to spend the money on a rifle for dangerous game, I'd buy CRF, if I alreasy had a Remington I'd hunt with it. The extractor is a problem for Remington, that's why the gunsmiths have come up with a fix for it. A jam is one thing, but a stuck case will take you out of the action for quite a while, it's hard to clear. The chances of it costing you some hide and claw marks are still pretty remote. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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They are one of the greatest rifles to hunt with as far as accuracy goes. I would not bet my life on the extractor. If you are hunting dangerous game with large calibers, 700s are out of their element. You can borrow money, but you can't borrow time. Don't wait, go now. Savannah Safaris Namibia Otjitambi Trails & Safaris DRSS NRA SCI DSC TSRA TMPA | |||
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Push feed rifle report. Brown bear hunt. ""He was ticked off," he said. "He appeared instantaneously. He looked like a freight train coming at me. I knew I had to make the shot really count. I took an extra split second, leaned into it and torched it off. I was fairly certain I hit him in the chest." He worked the bolt to chamber a second round but "short-stroked it," jamming the rifle. "Damn," he said as the bear barrelled forward, knocking him down. "Now I'm on my back kicking this bear in the head, trying to get him off me. He's biting my left foot, giving me a compound fracture, crunching the bones in my left leg. I'm trying to get my gun to work." " Join the NRA | |||
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So, what would have happened if the hunter 'short-stroked' a CRF? I am all for the best rifle for the application at hand, but I disagree with Remingtons being substandard, unreliable, dangerous pieces of shit too. This is with respect to hunting in general. Not being an expert bear hunter, if I had a few guys with experience tell me that I NEED CRF or that it is the best choice for DG, then I'd go with it. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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Maybe your neighbor would cringe if he knew what I heard from a Ford employee today. She found out she's going to lose her job soon. She works on trannys on the line. Her words: "I would never buy another Ford. All they're worried about are what numbers look best on paper. I've watch rejected parts start right back in the line just to get numbers by lunch. I watched another employee drop all of his ashes from his cigarettes down into the tranny gears and sometimes the butts, and that is nothing but contamination. I've watched lineworkers put rejected gears in the differentials, just to keep the numbers where they are supposed to be. American workers are just damned lazy, and I'm getting out of the auto work forever once they fire me." "They're closing down several of the plants because the gas prices are killing us on SUVs and trucks. Ford could build a great product but they treat us workers like shit, and the last thing a customer wants is a truck built by a pissed off lineworker. All Ford is worried about is quantity, not quality. That is why Bill Ford has stepped down to that Boeing guy." Bill Ford steps down Bottom line is this, it doesn't matter if it is a Ford, Chevy, Dodge, or Toyota, they all have their problems but I don't like what I'm hearing about some of the shit going on right here in Ohio with Ford. Especially since I bought a new Lariat 4x4 last year. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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I suppose that the CRF advocates would say that it wouldn't be jammed and that by simply working the bolt a second time (this time properly) that the gun would feed and shoot. However, your point that a short stroked CRF still results in a gun that doesn't shoot when you pull the trigger is fully valid. A shooter who insists on using only a CRF due to the feature of being able to more quickly correct a short-stroking failure seems to be indicating that they regard their own tendency to short stroke as a personal shortcoming with a significant chance of occuring. I guess that those of us who are comfortable with "push feeds" don't perceive our tendancy to short stroke as a significant likelihood. Actually, a "push feed" will only jam when "short stroked" IF the stroke is just long enough for the bolt face to pick up the rim of the cartridge in the magazine but not long enough for the ejector to toss the empty. With the full length cartridges typically used for DG hunting (.375 H&H, .416 Rem, etc) it is almost impossible for the spring-loaded ejector of a Rem 700 to fail to eject a case when the bolt is far enough to the rear to engage the cartridge rim of the cartridge in the magazine. Therefore one might argue that the Rem 700 is the LEAST likely action to malfunction when short stroked. The Remington 700 extractor is still subject to failure if a case is tough to extract due to high pressure or a corroded chamber or something similar. But what is a compentent hunter doing using loads the generate excessive pressure or failing to keep his chamber properly maintained? CRF or push feed, it don't amount to beans. What is far more important, just as in caliber or loads, is the competence of the shooter. | |||
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I must respectively disagree with Stonecreek. The CRF feature is in fact for shooters who at that moment are 'incompetant' if you will. The feature was intended for military use. However my quote above came from the hospital room of the AK guide who was badly mauled on Admiralty Island while short stroking is PF Sako. He was acknowledged as one of the best guides but the extreme stress of the cirmcumstances which are obvious in the quote resulted in jamming the rifle. One does not have to hunt bears to know about jams. Nobody wants a jam? A proper CRF is supposed to be fool proof. For those of you who are perfect and never get nervous then use a PF. I like the machinery aspect of CRF anyway. Join the NRA | |||
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Compairing a PF and CRF to the argument that a Ford is better than a Chevy is silly. A 700 is fine as long as the wimpy extractor works. My opinion is it is not suitable for DG hunting. They are more prone to extracting problems. They are not POSs. They are just not the best tool for the job. As far as Ford and Chevys go, they will both leave you stranded on the side of the road. You can borrow money, but you can't borrow time. Don't wait, go now. Savannah Safaris Namibia Otjitambi Trails & Safaris DRSS NRA SCI DSC TSRA TMPA | |||
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I'm not really sure here but I am starting to think every rifle I've ever owned was a piece of shit. And I've had both types! | |||
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Anyone disagree with that statement? Good. Now the question that occurs is "how much better or worse off are you with a short-stroked CRF as opposed to a short-stroked PF?" My contention is that there is very little difference. But each is welcome to his own subjective view. On the other hand, let's explore the foibles of the refusal of many CRF's to take a cartridge straight into the chamber. I currently happen to own only one CRF, a military Mauser 98. I KNOW that it will hopelessly jam if a cartridge is not fed from the magazine (hopeless meaning that it necessitates running a rod down the barrel to clear the round from the chamber.) On a few (thankfully not many) occasions I have found it necessary to quickly load a single round into a gun with an exahausted magazine for a very critical shot. There is no question that this is more quickly and reliably done with a PF and cannot cause a jam. When I get home, I think I'll do a little experimenting with the old Mauser. Although I haven't tried it, I think that if you push a loaded round as far forward in the magazine as possible, then retract the bolt with a fired case in the extractor to a point that it is rearward of the rim of the cartridge in the magazine (but not far enough rearward to engage the ejector) that there may be enough of the bolt face exposed to catch the rim of the magazine cartridge and cause a jam identical to that in some PFs. I'm not certain about this, but it is theoretically possible. (P.S: All of you CRF fans don't jump my ass until I've had a chance to see if I'm wrong, and if so I'll cheerfully report it. Thanks!) | |||
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I sort of hate to mention this, but I am still using a BSA action for my rifle of choice for deer and hogs. But before everyone has a big sucking inhale, I only customize Mausers. | |||
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All of my Remingtons have Sako extractors from custom smith...isn't this a good thing? Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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I grow weary of this topic. I have seen the arguements go round and round several times a year on one forum or another. It is always the same. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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Like DJ says "Some people just like to argue". It goes deeper than that but anyway......... Stonecreek, You have to be more specific. Of course a short stroked bolt may not have a loaded round ahead of it but a PF might double feed causing a jam. I recall mentioning that if a magazine not filled front to back by the round it may get picked up by the bolt face and then a CRF might double feed but a plunger ejected PF might not. While I don't like that Mauser feature of the extractor not jumping over a round pushed ahead of it just press on the side of the extractor while pushing the bolt forward and it will open and go over the rim of the round in the chamber. Join the NRA | |||
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I still think the extractor is the weak point of the Rem as do most custom gunsmiths. The fact that all of them perform the Sako extractor operation is proof of it being a problem. You may have time to clear a double feed jam, maybe not. I am quite sure you will not have time to run a rod down the barrel and knock the case out. I have also seen CRF rifles not working properly that will double feed if short stroked as well, trying to feed a cartridge from the left side while holding another in the extractor. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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Contolled Round Feeding Vs Push Feed? The only thing that you are doing by arguing the case is showing pointless bias one way or the other.... The arguement that controlled feeds have more positive extraction isn't entirely true. (what much repeated arguement ever is?) Even in the cases where CRF's do indeed have more positive extraction that advantage is mostly compromised by less positive EJECTION If you TRAIN yourself to cycle the bolt FIRMLY to the rear limit of it's travel EVERYTIME you won't have a problem... The issue arrises in the field when people shoot from the bench and work the bolt gently to save themselves from picking the brass up off of the ground... In the "heat of the moment" you DO the way you have TRAINED. show me a case where someone screwed up like the guide that got bear scratched above and I'll show you a case where someone TRAINED THEMSELVES to screw up. Sorry but operator malfunction is operator malfunction and as such is a failure in training, not a failure of the equipment. Trying to pretty it up is like spreading perfume on on a cesspool. AllanD If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
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Allen, The whole point of a CRF action is that it's fool proof! Never mind 'training' yourself. Of course practice is good but things happen. Join the NRA | |||
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