Allen

In what CRF rifle is the extraction less positive than a Remington? The Mauser extractor is the most positive, better than the Ruger, Win. etc., but all are more positive than the Remington. I will agree that practice is the most important, when operating a bolt, many make the mistake of working strictly for speed, I taught my kids to pull the bolt back, with an ever so slight pause before going forward just to eliminate short stroking when in a hurry.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

a short stroked CRF still results in a gun that doesn't shoot when you pull the trigger

Anyone disagree with that statement? Good. Now the question that occurs is "how much better or worse off are you with a short-stroked CRF as opposed to a short-stroked PF?"

My contention is that there is very little difference. But each is welcome to his own subjective view.

s!)

Yes! I do disagree with that statement, because it is incomplete!

The above statement is flawed because there are two definitions of "SHORT STROAKING", and the one that gets PF rifles into truble is not the one you describe! The one you describe only fails to put a cartridge in the chamber, and doesn't jam the rifle, and another stroak of the bolt will fix that.

You are correct,the type of short stroaking you describe is no more detromental to a PF action than to a CRF, because they both will simply rechamber the empty, but the next stroak will fix that, without a jam .

The item about placeing a round directly in the chamber in a CRF,is only a problem if it is a old millitary action that has not been modified for DGR use. I don't think anyone should take on a dangerous game hunt till his rifle is working the best it can, and that include PF, and CRF alike! Commercial CRF actions will take a round placed in the chamber, and work fine.

No matter how much tuneing one does, or extractor mods one makes,it will not give a PF bolt control of the cartridge from the time it is stripped off the magazine, till it is ejected, either loaded, or empty from the rifle. That is what is meant by CONTROL ROUND FEED!

The short stroak that is bad in a DGR is not one that the bolt isn't drawn back far enough, but the one where the shooter gets in too much of a hurry, because of a subconscious need to get off the next shot before he has fired the one being chambered. In this scenario, the shooter fires the rifle with the first shot, and when it doesn't do the trick, and the animal is close, he gets in a hurry, and before the next round is in the chamber, he withdraws the bolt again, without chambering the round he has already stripped off the top of the magazine, still in the loading tray, and when he goes forward again, strips off another round, With a PF he now has two cartridges in the tray, vying for one chamber, if that bolt is jammed forward hard, which it will be in this scenario, and both bullets get into the mouth of the chamber, they will be hopelessly jammed, wedgeing the bullets of both in the chamber,requireing tools to clear. OTH, if the action is a CRF, the first round stripped off the magazine, will be ejected,when withdrawn, and when the bolt goes home again it will simply chamber the next round.

You see, the PF will only take hold of a round once the cartridge is pushed home in the chamber, and the bolt handle turned down. The CRF bolt has the round as it comes out of the magazine, and at any time durring the cycle, if the bolt is pulled back, it will eject that round, and can't pick up another till the first one is ejected!

Now if you think the above scenario doesn't, or can't happen, it does, and a well known Brown Bear guide was mauled in Alaska last year by exactly that scnario, he was useing a SAKO 375 H&H,that he had been useing for years without a problem, but now he was going into the alders with a gut shot Brown bear, his client had shot, and he short stroaked his rifle exactly as I have just described. He now uses a CRF 375 H&H!

My contention is, if you want to use PF rifles, be my guest! I have absolutely no objection to your use of them. What I don't understand is the head in the sand attitude, and the unwillingness to even consider the possibility that you could be wrong, because you haven't seen it happen.

It makes little differnce if this happens on a deer, or elk hunt, all that is lost is a shot at a trophy, or an empty freezer,or both, but in the case of dangerous game, it could cost you, or someone in your party their life.

As someone above said, it all boils down to
your choice, and that is true, but in some cases it boils down to the fact that your choice could effect others, in a very negative way!

One system is simply superior to the other! What is so hard about understanding that? Since it costs no more to use CRF for dangerous game hunting, I simply don't see the objection to it!

All rifles will jam if the person behind the trigger can't work the bolt. I have both Push and CRF all you have to do on both is pull the bolt back, turn the rifle twords its side and watch the shell hit the ground. I am going to say something I am sure I will get burned for but its the truth. Mauser, and Enfield actions are a cheap POS plain and simple. They are durable I will give them that but the lock times are slow slow slow and that means a hell of a lot more then CRF VS Push.

I wouldn't own a Remington if it was free !

I have a 700 .243 and .270 in my shop right now. Guess whats wrong with them. They won't extract, imagine that. We will either have Sako extractors installed or put new bolts on them, these are not fixable. I love 700s almost as much as 1100s. We make several thousand dollars a year repairing them. I have an idea, lets have a poll on which rifles break more often. I bet a six pack Remington will lead that poll 10 to 1.

dakor

do you mean you work the bolt, then turn the rifle to the right, let the case fall out, then push the bolt forward? I've never seen anyone work a bolt action rifle in that manner, but I guess it is OK, but a bit slow and awkward. On another point, I think you will find an old FN Mauser from the 50's is better finished on the inside than a Remington on the outside. A quick lock time isn't that big a deal either, IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
Allen,

The whole point of a CRF action is that it's fool proof! Never mind 'training' yourself. Of course practice is good but things happen.

No, it isn't "foolproof" because fools, like idiots and klutzes tend to be able to do things that most of the rest of us can not duplicate
even by trying.

The contention in this and other discussions
that ANY "CRF" system is superior to a remington
under ANY cicumstances is not supported by the simple reality of the fact that I've personally broken TWO Mauser extractor claws.
I have not personally broken a remington extractor through two decades of trying, though I've SEEN one broken...

quote:

Originally posted by jstevens:
Allen

In what CRF rifle is the extraction less positive than a Remington? The Mauser extractor is the most positive, better than the Ruger, Win. etc., but all are more positive than the Remington. I will agree that practice is the most important, when operating a bolt, many make the mistake of working strictly for speed, I taught my kids to pull the bolt back, with an ever so slight pause before going forward just to eliminate short stroking when in a hurry.

Positive? Mabey, meaning it'll "Extract" not necissarily true.
I've seen "stuck cases" in both types of action with a missing chunk of rim.

the point I'm trying to make is that not all failures to extract are extractor failures, but the "Holy church of the claw extractor" constantly tries to repeat as dogma that all failures to extract are on Remington 700's

Is a 223rem case with half the rim torn off fired in a Remington 700 evidence of the famously weak remington etractor?

I've personally jammed a CRF rifle simply by working the bolt gently and failing to eject the fired round

As for bolt operation...
I personally work the bolt fast because I train myself to hear that important "clack" as it hits the end of it's rearward travel.

I call my method "Testing the bolt stop"

AllanD

jstevens I was talking about if you get a jam and your cartridge will not go in the chamber you pull the bolt back and tip the rifle to clear the jam. Takes about 1/10th of a second to do and CRF jam anyone who does not think so has never shot one enough. As for Remington breaking I think thats pretty funny because they are one of the strongest Factory actions made. As for the extractor going that can happen in any rifle. Brian I hate to tell you if those rifles will not extract and you cannot put another Rem extractor in there then who ever owned them shot a hot load in them and damaged the bolt face. If not you pop the pin out and stick a new one in there. yeah sako extractors are nice but the difference with that style is if you shoot a hot load and break it you are either picking it out of your arm or face. For the comment about a 50's mauser why don't you take that Mauser and build a 338 or 375 ultra on it maybe even a 338 Lapua? Let us know if you make it after you pull the trigger a few times. Maybe the easiest way to explain it is do you see Mauser or Enfields or Mod 70's shooting benchrest? Few and far between think maybe there is a reason for that? Do you think a benchrest shooter, High Power, or F class shooter would use an action that is POS and breaks all the time? Do the Military snipers use Mausers, Enfields, or Winchesters? No they use a REM 700 or a Sako TRG. But I am sure all those shooters and the Military would use a rifle made out of glass. Here is another thought maybe you are fixing more Remingtons because more people own them which means there are more of them. Just so I don't here I am a Remington guy I just like good rifles. I own Sako's, Remingtons, and Rugers at the current time. Oh I forgot yeah locktime is very important just like a crisp trigger is.

quote:

Originally posted by dakor:
I am going to say something I am sure I will get burned for but its the truth. Mauser, and Enfield actions are a cheap POS plain and simple. They are durable I will give them that but the lock times are slow slow slow and that means a hell of a lot more then CRF VS Push.

The lock time means little on DGR! That is only a drawback on a varment, or target rifle! CRF is far more important on a DGR, than lock time! There's no flame thrower in my DGR battery, but if there were it would be CRF!

A true DGR is not a bolt anyway its a double and a big double. Locktime means more than people think just like a good trigger when shooting off hand. When you put the hairs where it needs to be you want instant response when the trigger is touched.

quote:

I wouldn't own a Remington if it was free !

quote:

We make several thousand dollars a year repairing them. I have an idea, lets have a poll on which rifles break more often. I bet a six pack Remington will lead that poll 10 to 1

The fact that there are many more Remingtons out there would ruin that poll...

Reloader

I like both Remington and Savage 110s. I own both and hunt with both. I've never had a Remington fail to extract or feed. I've also had the privilage of extracting cases from Remingtons after someone shot to hot a load. In some instances I've taken a wooden mallet and beat the bolt handle up than open to extract the case. The only time I've not extracted the case is when the extractor tore the rim off. I have no problem with Remington extractors.

As for hunting, I'l be pursuing black bear this year with a Winchester M71 and let the bolt guns rest. Am I afraid the levergun won't function properly, nope. I'll hit it right the first time and then hit it again if needed. And I'll have fun in the process. I've nothing bad to say about Mausers or their offspring, I just don't happen to have one at the moment, and amazing as it may seem, I don't feel I'm putting my life or hunt at any particular risk.

dakor

If you have a CRF and a case doesn't chamber, you just pull the bolt back and eject it. Building a .338RUM on a Mauser is meaningless, the action isn't large enough to really work, although it has probably been done. I personally have no need for a RUM anything anyway. What a benchrest shooter uses for an action means about as much to a hunter as the fact that trapshooters use a Perazzi means to a quail hunter. I suppose I should be hunting quail with a Perazzi that weighs 8 pounds with 32 in. barrels instead of my 5-lb. 28 ga. I should put a 32x scope on my 22 pound DGR like the benchresters as well.

Jstevens I can tell you do not know much about F class and Benchrest shooting. They have different classes even a factory one and guess what those are hunting rifles that are used in the light class. My point was what action do they use? 75% or more use a REM 700 that is squared up. If Remington was such a shitty action I doubt they would be building a match rifle on them when some spend $2000+ on there match rifle. For you guys that think Remingtons are shit why don't you call around to some top Gunsmiths in the country and ask them what they think. To answer you statement about just pulling the bolt back that is not always the case. I have had it where the shell is not held by the all mighty CRF and I had to tip it just like a push feed. The 308 Norma I had built on a Enfield and the 220 Swift I have now in a Ruger have done it to me nothing is totally jam proof. I can tell you right now any smith that knows what he is doing will not build a super mag on a mauser or enfield because they cannot take the pressure. But I have no more to add to this topic I said my 2.

dakor
I never said a Remington was shit or a shitty action, nor innacurate. You are correct, I don't know or give a shit about benchrest shooting. This is about a rifle for hunting dangerous game, not inherent accuracy. If you had to tip a cartridge out of a CRF type action, the cartridge had to be pushed ahead of the extractor, so it really wasn't acting as a CRF type action. For what it's worth, go ahead and call D'Arcy Echols, and several other top smiths and tell them you want him to build you a DGR on a Remington 700 and get his opinion! I have nothing against a 700, I own several and shot two of them last week. The CRF type action is advantageous for a dangerous game rifle. That is why almost all companies make a big game rifle CRF, as most custom riflemakers in the business of building DGR will also tell you they prefer. The most popular DGR in factory form are the CZ, Ruger RSM, Model 70 pre 64 type action, and various Mauser customs, all CRF. Sako and I believe Savage as well coverted a push feed into CRF as did Ed Brown on his custom big bore actions.

I have no way of sending this as a post, but the 9/1953 issue of NRA magazine contains the results of a series of questions asked of professional guides in Alaska. Your question is not original and is one of those asked. Mauser and Winchester ruled, as did bullet placement over anything else. The questionnaire is quite lengthy and very well done as were all those issues back then when the primary topics were gun/hunting related and not, 'Right to bear Arms'.So what else is new?

quote:

Originally posted by dakor:
All rifles will jam if the person behind the trigger can't work the bolt. I have both Push and CRF all you have to do on both is pull the bolt back, turn the rifle twords its side and watch the shell hit the ground. I am going to say something I am sure I will get burned for but its the truth. Mauser, and Enfield actions are a cheap POS plain and simple. They are durable I will give them that but the lock times are slow slow slow and that means a hell of a lot more then CRF VS Push.

quote:

If Remington was such a shitty action I doubt they would be building a match rifle on them when some spend $2000+ on there match rifle. For you guys that think Remingtons are shit why don't you call around to some top Gunsmiths in the country and ask them what they think.

I would dearly love to see a video of you clearing your jam with a Cape Buffalo closeing on you at ten yds! The second quote, about spending $2000 for their rifles, simply shows lack knowledge! Very few real target rifles will be commissioned for as little as $2000, and a real DGR will cost you far more that $2000! Hell a trued action will caot more than $2K, and you won't touch a proper DGR for under $5K, to $8K, and it will be a CRF actioned rifle! So much for your,"CHEAP POS" comment! It's not plain and simple,to anyone but except those who have never been in the sights of a big Cape buffalo, who is looking for revenge!

The above quote is simply the same thing we always hear from those who have only a background, of a fireing range, or a bench rest shooting mentality. The gunsmiths who build this type of rifle, cannot build a proper DGR, even if his target rifles ARE sub MOA rifles. In those rifles the push feed rifle is fine,
because nothing is lost if it doesn't opperate properly,except a shot at a trophy, or a paper target. This includes snipper rifles, which are not combat rifles, but long range target rifles, that are fired from hideing, on distant target, who even if missed, has no idea where the shot came from.

The Mauser CRF action is an action that was designed for combat, where people are shooting back at you, and where your nearves can cause you to do things your mind doesn't tell you to do, this is the sceenario that closely compares to the close in fight you are in with dangerous game.

Anyone can snipe an animal from a distance, and in that sceenario, the push feed is fine, but dangerous game is simply not dangerous game, at distance, so what is the point? He is only dangerous to the hunter, when close, and that is where the push feed rifle is a liability. The DANGEROUS GAME RIFLE is made to opperate when your mind doesn't, off the end of the barrel,with you life in the ballance, and when you have no time to clear jams!

Lock time, and jam clearing be damned, here this rifle has to work every time, and one rarely even sees the sights, when the target is in your face, so even medium accuracy is pleanty good! That isn't to say very accurate rifles cannot be made on CRF actions, I have some that will take P-Dogs at 300 yds with boreing regularity!

Nothing is 100% relaible, but between a PUSHFEED, and a CONTROL ROUND FEED in a bolt action, the CRF comes far closer than any other actioned rifle.

I personally prefere a double rifle to either of these bolt rifles, but my DGRs that are on bolt actions are never anything but CRF! Push feeds are for deer hunting, P dogs, and target rifles, CRF are for DGR application, if one must use a bolt action rifle!

If you are paying 5+k for a true DGR rifle you are getting bent over period. As for your comment about clearing a jam if you read what I said earlier in one of my posts a bolt action rifle is not a DGR rifle a double is. No failure with a double two shots with two big bullets. I am thinking 40cal or bigger. My point is CRF is not all what it is cracked up to be. I know I have owned both and hunted with both and yes your little crf can act like a push feed sometimes when it does not hold the shell while chambering. MacD37 and Jstevens how many rounds a year do you shoot? I shoot about 3500 to 4000 with different rifles. Maybe thats why I have seen the crf push a cartridge in the chamber instead of grab it in more then one rifle because I shoot lots of rounds. Like I said a you want a true DGR fuck the bolt get a double. On a side note tell Saeed that his push feed he has used in the past to shoot his CB is a POS. Oh and tell my friend who just got back from the sandbox that his sniper rifle is just a target gun and that his life would not be in more danger if it failed or broke while he was out and about. As for the comment about a target rifle I think you are a little miss informed. I have several I know what they cost to build $2000 is average depending on how fancy you get.

dakor

I tire easily of posts like these. The only one who stated anything is a POS was you. I also said that I have seen the CRF rifles push feed as well, but if they do they are not operating properly. This should be obvious, as they are a CRF action that doesn't CRF. As for how much I shoot, anyone who knows me is well aware that I live in the country and never go a week without firing at least 100 rounds and have for possibly more years than you've been alive. I also ran a retail gun store for 5 or 6 years and have shot pretty much everything made at length. I don't shoot any rifles competitively, although I have in the past been a long yardage trapshooter and shot a lot of pistol competition, mostly bowling pin matches. I currently load ammo for about 30 differnt rifle calibers as well as some handguns. It's easy to question someone's knowledge and shooting ability on the internet, but just shows a lack of class and life experience. I never said any Rem or other pushfeed is a POS, as I have a bunch of Rem and Sako pushfeed rifles in the safe, only that the CRF has some inherent advantages for a DGR, which is pretty much the consensus among PH's, as well as hunters with a lot of African experience and is proven by the fact that most bolt DGR are CRF. I would like to have a double as well to hunt with, but cannot justify the expense. Most big game everywhere is shot with a bolt rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by dakor:
If you are paying 5+k for a true DGR rifle you are getting bent over period. As for your comment about clearing a jam if you read what I said earlier in one of my posts a bolt action rifle is not a DGR rifle a double is. No failure with a double two shots with two big bullets. I am thinking 40cal or bigger. My point is CRF is not all what it is cracked up to be. I know I have owned both and hunted with both and yes your little crf can act like a push feed sometimes when it does not hold the shell while chambering. MacD37 and Jstevens how many rounds a year do you shoot? I shoot about 3500 to 4000 with different rifles Maybe thats why I have seen the crf push a cartridge in the chamber instead of grab it in more then one rifle because I shoot lots of rounds. Like I said a you want a true DGR fuck the bolt get a double. On a side note tell Saeed that his push feed he has used in the past to shoot his CB is a POS. Oh and tell my friend who just got back from the sandbox that his sniper rifle is just a target gun and that his life would not be in more danger if it failed or broke while he was out and about. As for the comment about a target rifle I think you are a little miss informed. I have several I know what they cost to build $2000 is average depending on how fancy you get.

Dakor
I shoot about 3500 to 4000 with different rifles
, and how many of those rounds are calibers suitable for Dangerous Game hunting, and at Dangerous Game, from a PUSH FEED RIFLE? If you saw a CRF push feed a round, it was "FUBAR", and a plumber put it together!

I'd bet my next retirement check, a full 90% of those rounds, if you fired them at all, are 30 cal or smaller,with most being .22s! If you fired 3500 to 4000 rounds of DGR ammo per year, you are either very wealthy or very broke at the end of the year! 470NE ammo is $17.00 per shot, for Federal factory ammo, and even $8.00 per round handloaded, in once fired brass, and nobody I know use anything but Factory, or BRAND NEW BRASS handloads to hunt Cape Buffalo, or any of the big five! There are some, however, who hunt them with PF rifles, but they are few and far between, over all!

I never said a rifle that is PUSH FEED, is a POS,some are, but those words came out of your mouth, in relation to "ALL"CRFs! All I said is, for a DGR,Bolt rifle, CRF is superior to PUSH FEED, with both being equally preped.

No matter the type of action, in any rifle, they all can be a POS, even some double rifles, but a TRUE DGR is either a Quality double rifle , or a Quality CRF bolt rifle PERIOD, and if it isn't up to snuff, then it hasn't been properly built! I have an idea you have experienced a large amount of the ones not well built, if you've experienced so many failiers!

That fact doesn't change the fact that the CRF action is simply more relaiable than a PF, with both being tweeked equally!

I'm 70 yrs old, and I probably had shot more game before you were born, than you will shoot in the rest of your life. I'm sure I've shot a hell of a lot more BITE-BACK game than you,because jackrabbits, whitetail, and paper targets don't count as dangerous game! PFs are fine for the deer,and paper, big or small, and that's where you need your fast locktime, not on a DGR!

dakor, when you resort to anger it shows you have no argument, you can back up with facts! Calm Down, you're going to have a brain bleed! I'll not offer further comment on this subject, after all this is simply a difference of opinion, not a war!

.................BYE!!!

I am so glad people know my hunting experiance when they dont even know me and know what I have shot and what my rifles were. Damn you guys are good. Angry? I was not angry I didnt tell any of you to kiss my ass did I? What difference does it make on the caliber? The debate was a CRF never jams and always hangs on to the case when chambering. As for what rifles I have owned. I have had it happen in a couple of what some call the best action made a pre 64 Mod 70 also If you want to know the chambering one was a 243 the other a 338. I also have had it happen in a couple of Rugers and Enfields including the 308 Norma I had built. As for your fast knowledge in rifles add 35 to your age and thats how many Rifles I have owned over the years. So I think before you start spouting off about how old I am or what I shoot and this and that. Yes I shoot a 375 H&H in a REM 700 and yes I would hunt anything on the planet with it and not think twice. Do you practice every week or so with those big rifles of yours? No I have not hunted Cape Buff or been to africa but I have hunted bear a few times but I suppose those dont count because everyone knows a bear cannot kill you. Yeah you got me on hunting things that bite back big deal does that mean you know more about rifles? Since you asked I Reload. I also like the slam about 22's oh and you owe me your next check because one was a 338 and lots of cape buff been shot by those. Send me an email I will send you my addy and who to make the check out to. This is good timing as I need some more 375 Bullets and Powder and just for you I will buy some 22 and 30cal bullets maybe even some 7mm stuff to.

quote:

Originally posted by concho:
I wouldn't own a Remington if it was free !

Thats great. Next time sombody offers you one for free send it my way.

quote:

Originally posted by dakor:
I also like the slam about 22's oh and you owe me your next check because one was a 338 and lots of cape buff been shot by those. .

Buff have been shot with a 338 ?????

They may have, but the 338 is illegal for cape buffalo in every country in Africa!

What difference does it make on caliber, you ask????

It makes a great deal of difference! When the calibers get big, and the recoil gets heavy, and the target, who is willing to do you great harm, is getting close, it makes IDIOTS out of the inexperienced, and that is what the CRF is designed to do, make the action IDIOT PROOF! The PF action is not well designed for use in these highly charged combat sittuations!

I think we need to drop this, because I will not pennetrate your blind shield,or confuse you with facts, and I know far too much about DGR firearms for you to steer me backwards! So......I guess we will have to simply agree to disagree!

Yeah lots of buff been shot with a 338 the cartridge has been out since the 60's and game laws back then are not what they are now you should know since you are 70. 30/06 has taken lots of buff to. So I say you still owe me a check because lots of guides use a 338win for backup in Alaska for Browns and I would say those are just as tuff as a cape buff and will kill you just as fast. We can disagree not a big deal. The whole point I was making is I have had it happen in a CRF so it can happen that why I said if you want a true DGR to get a double. As for recoil that has nothing to do with feeding and I do not see how you can argue that. I will agree with some people can't handle when it hits the fan and panic and short stroke the bolt or whatever. One thing some refuse to usnderstand is nothing is fool proof and I mean nothing even a double could fail but it is your best bet. If everything was always going to be nice and cozy hunting DG people wouldnt do it.

quote:

Originally posted by dakor:
Yeah lots of buff been shot with a 338 the cartridge has been out since the 60's and game laws back then are not what they are now you should know since you are 70. 30/06 has taken lots of buff to.

Man you just don't give up do you? The 338 would have been illegal for buffalo since back in the late 1940s early 50s when Kenya had a .400 cal minimum for any dangerous game, and at that time the minimum was .366 (9.3mm)dia, with a minimum FPE in most other countries, and the .375 dia was minumum in most countries, from then till today. As I said there is no doubt Buffalo have been killed with just about any thing you can name, but it wasn't legally, and that fact doesn't make the 338 a D G caliber.

quote:

So I say you still owe me a check because lots of guides use a 338win for backup in Alaska for Browns and I would say those are just as tuff as a cape buff and will kill you just as fast.

dakor you're showing your ignorance again! There is no way in hell a Brown bear is as tough as a Cape Buffalo!, that statement is just dumb! Now, I grant you he will kill you just as dead, but he is not as hard to stop, or kill as a Cape buffalo. I've killed both, and you are simply wrong!

quote:

We can disagree not a big deal. The whole point I was making is I have had it happen in a CRF so it can happen that why I said if you want a true DGR to get a double. As for recoil that has nothing to do with feeding and I do not see how you can argue that.

You need to read for comprehention! I said the recoil, combined with nervous tention, caused by a dangerous animal closeing on you fast, at close range, combined with much slower recovery time, from recoil, causes the shooter get in a hurry, and to do stupid things, like short shifting, he wouldn't do when shooting at a paper target, or a goaty old deer, with a lighter recoiling rifle. This is where the CRF feature takes the stupid out of a temperarily stupid shooter!

quote:

I will agree with some people can't handle when it hits the fan and panic and short stroke the bolt or whatever. One thing some refuse to usnderstand is nothing is fool proof and I mean nothing even a double could fail but it is your best bet.

If you could just get away from only listening to yourself, and read! I believe I said that above, and in my first, and second post,nothing is 100%! However, I'll say it again, when a short stroke happens, the CRF gives you the best chance of clearing it in time!

If you had a CRF rifle that commited a PUSH FEED, then you had a fool plumber for a gunsmith. Anything can malfunction when broken, and a CRF that pushes a round ahead of the Extractor, is broken, and anyone who would accept such a rifle from a gun smith is a fool! The thing you don't seem to understand is, the malfunction you found in that CRF rifle is designed into a PF rifle! Not to make it better,which it certainly doesn't, but to make more money for the maker, by haveing his rifles made intirely by machines!

It shouldn't be any supprise to you that I agree with you on the Double Rifle being the best in a DGR fight,as that is what I use exclusively when purposely hunting DG, but this discussion is between the PF, and CRF bolt rifle as a DGR!

my plains game, light rifles (375H&H, or (.3X62,)are most times bolt rifles, and because I might run face to face with a Bite-Back,in bite-back country, the chambering is big enough to handle the deal, and it is always a CRF.

quote:

If everything was always going to be nice and cozy hunting DG people wouldnt do it.

I agree with you again here,if it waeren't dangerous, it would be called deer hunting! However, anyone who purposely goes into the weeds with dangerous game, especially if wounded, without the proper caliber, and the best rifle for that purpose, is, plain, and simple, a fool!

The well made double is top dog here, but when useing a bolt rifle for a DGR, amoung other things it should be a well tuned CRF! Since that is what this discussion is about, BOLT RIFLES, used as DGRs,PF or CRF, then the simple answer is CRF! case closed! I'm outta here!

There is no way you can tell me a costal Brown is not as hard to stop as a cape buff. I think you are reaching at this one. I have talked to lots of guides and seen lots of hunting videos and the Big Bears can take lots of hits with big stuff and keep coming. I have also seen tons of video's on Cape buff hunts with charges and I would say they both can take equal amounts of lead. I will be the first to say I have shot neither but I have talked with lots of people who have and you would be the first to say a Cape is tougher to kill. From what I gather they are about the same and saying a 338win is not a DGR because it is Illegal and Brown Bears are not as tough to kill is foolish. No those rifles were not broken its called cycling the bolt really fast and the claw not garbbing the shell when it happen. You are also missing the fact that 3 of them were factory rifles only one was a custom job. So you can say a Winchester Pre 64 was put together by a plumber that worked at the plant where it was built. Why is it that guys that hunt Africa think the beasts over there are the toughest and are bullet proof and anything over here with claws teeth and Horns is just like hunting a poodle? I give you the Rhino, Hippo, and Elephant are the biggest bad ass's. I am not saying a Cape buff is a slouch either but we have 3 things over here that are equal. Bison, Browns, and Polar Bears. Ever shoot a free roaming Bison? They actually out weigh a Cape buff and are tough but you never here anything about that. Now I suppose you are going to ramble on that I am crazy. Well I was not the trigger man but I seen a bull that weighed 192lbs take 8 hits from a 404 Jeffery. The first shot broke the shoulder the bull fell then got up charged then took a couple more hits. After its other shoulder was broken so it had two broken mind you. The bull proped itself up and pushed with its back legs and slid on its chin until one bullet went through the neck and broke the spine. But I suppose that does not mean much cause it happen in the USA not Africa. Anyway I said my last two you can say whatever you want from this point I am done. We agree to disagree on some things and agree on others. If you are ever up in ND give me a shout I would like to hear about our trips over to Africa over some coffee or a meal. One day I hope to make it over there.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
...The 338 would have been illegal for buffalo since back in the late 1940s early 50s when Kenya had a .400 cal minimum for any dangerous game, and at that time the minimum was .366 (9.3mm)dia, with a minimum FPE in most other countries, and the .375 dia was minumum in most countries, from then till today. As I said there is no doubt Buffalo have been killed with just about any thing you can name, but it wasn't legally, ...

anyone who purposely goes into the weeds with dangerous game, especially if wounded, without the proper caliber, and the best rifle for that purpose, is, plain, and simple, a fool! ...

Hey Mac, One of your old buddies, allan day, used to do a lot of blowhard-bragging about using a 300WinMag on Buff in Africa. He clearly explained to everyone and anyone who would buy into his line of foolishness that nothing more was needed.

Of course, it was an Echols rifle which made it perform well above the reliability and usefullness of ANY other rifles ever made, according to the blowhard-braggart.

So, are you saying ad is a fool, an illegal poacher, a complete liar, or a combination of all the above, in addition to the normal blowhard-braggart we all know him to be.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
...The 338 would have been illegal for buffalo since back in the late 1940s early 50s when Kenya had a .400 cal minimum for any dangerous game, and at that time the minimum was .366 (9.3mm)dia, with a minimum FPE in most other countries, and the .375 dia was minumum in most countries, from then till today. As I said there is no doubt Buffalo have been killed with just about any thing you can name, but it wasn't legally, ...

anyone who purposely goes into the weeds with dangerous game, especially if wounded, without the proper caliber, and the best rifle for that purpose, is, plain, and simple, a fool! ...

Hey Mac, One of your old buddies, allan day, used to do a lot of blowhard-bragging about using a 300WinMag on Buff in Africa. He clearly explained to everyone and anyone who would buy into his line of foolishness that nothing more was needed.

Of course, it was an Echols rifle which made it perform well above the reliability and usefullness of ANY other rifles ever made, according to the blowhard-braggart.

So, are you saying ad is a fool, an illegal poacher, a complete liar, or a combination of all the above, in addition to the normal blowhard-braggart we all know him to be.

I prefer CRFs to push feeds for dangerous game, but would have no problems using my push-feed Weatherbys on same. Now that's out of the way,I promised myself once to ignore someone who is arguably the most bitter and vindictive poster on record here on AR, but his latest tirade, apart from being totally FALSE, pissed me off to no end.

First of all, while AD did indeed take a buffalo with his 300 Win Mag because his 458 Win Mag developed trigger problems (it's even captured on film in one of Sullivan's videos) He ALWAYS went out of his way to state that he only did it out of nessecity and would never do so again nor recommend anyone to do the same.

Secondly, the 300 Win mag he used was NOT an Echols built rifle and while he does think highly of the Echols product, he's also recommended many other manufacturers, except of course the Wal-art specials our corpulent sociopath uses.

Hot Core, I don't know what your obvious pathological hatred of Allen is (by the way it's ALLEN with an "E"), maybe it's because he exposed you for what you are, in addition to making mincemeat of your incessant and pedantic arguments, but you are way off base here. Get your facts straight before you start spewing. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
So, are you saying ad is a fool, an illegal poacher, a complete liar, or a combination of all the above, in addition to the normal blowhard-braggart we all know him to be.

Hotcore, I have no idea what your problem is with AD, but it has nothing to do with the discussion here! What you fail to tell the fine folks here is, Allen only used the 300 Win Mag, because his 458 Win Mag rifle went out of service, and the Game scout outhorized it's use, to finish the hunt. He never said, anyplace I read, that the 300WM was all one needed for Cape Buffalo. In fact, he warned against useing anything less than a 375H&H which is light for buff in tight cover, especially if already wounded.

To me that sounds like a very prudent advice on Allen's part, not bragging. Further, I never heard Allen Day BRAGG ABOUT ANYTHING HE did! He does braggon others, like our fine friend Mark Sullivan, and D'Arcy, but not on himself!

To answer your indictment of AD's cerdentials, I say this, When you have the experience Allen Day has in the fields of the world, then you can make claims to knowledge enough to second guess Allen Day!

As far as Allen Day being "MY OLD PAL" as you put it, you couldn't be further off base. Allen doesn't like me at all, because of my intense dislike of his friend Mark Sullivan. But I do not question Allen's credentials, because he has forgotten more about Dangerous game than just about anyone I know, even if he is young at around 45 yrs old, he's been in the weeds with a lot of dangerous game the world over! NO Hotcore, the only one I would call a fool is someone who second guesses an experienced DG hunter like Allen Day, with nothing to back his opinion up but what he's read in magazines, or saw on TV!

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I prefer CRFs to push feeds for dangerous game, but would have no problems using my push-feed Weatherbys on same. Now that's out of the way,I promised myself once to ignore someone who is arguably the most bitter and vindictive poster on record here on AR, but his latest tirade, apart from being totally FALSE, pissed me off to no end.

First of all, while AD did indeed take a buffalo with his 300 Win Mag because his 458 Win Mag developed trigger problems (it's even captured on film in one of Sullivan's videos) He ALWAYS went out of his way to state that he only did it out of nessecity and would never do so again nor recommend anyone to do the same.

Secondly, the 300 Win mag he used was NOT an Echols built rifle and while he does think highly of the Echols product, he's also recommended many other manufacturers, except of course the Wal-art specials our corpulent sociopath uses.

I agree with you, if, like Allen, I had no other choice, then I'd not quit on a hunt because all I had was a 300WM rifle, even one that was PF. That fact, in no way, makes the 300WM a proper rifle for Cape Buffalo,or the PF action a proper design for that use, and I certainly wouldn't reccomend their use on even Brown bear! However, that said, I wouldn't leave home from the USA, and go on a Cape Buffalo, or lion hunt with my rifle being a PUSH FEED, no matter the chambering. If it happened to be the only thing in camp when my rifle broke, like you, if it were a quality rifle like the Wby, Sauer, or Steyr Mannlicher,Or SAKO, I wouldn't quit hunting because it was PF rifle, but I'd damn well be very carefull what I did in the process! If it was a WALLY-WORLD SPECIAL, It would worry me no end.

As you well know, Jorge, normally I would say neither bolt rifle is as good for that purpose as my double rifles, but that wasn't the discussion here. Between the two types of bolt rifles CRF is best action type,for DGR use, both types being equally tuned.

quote:

Hot Core, I don't know what your obvious pathological hatred of Allen is (by the way it's ALLEN with an "E"), maybe it's because he exposed you for what you are, in addition to making mincemeat of your incessant and pedantic arguments, but you are way off base here. Get your facts straight before you start spewing. jorge

Well said Jorge!

I really have no problem with QUALITY made PF rifles, I have several, but for the life of me I simply can't understand the purposfull use of these things, to hunt dangerous game, when there is such an easy choice.

Even the big green finally went to a CRF with their new 798 rifles, because of pressure from the knowledgable hunting public, and suits filed against them for wrongfull deaths with their mal-fuctioning mod 700.

I really don't know why I ever open this forum, because there is always a donnibrook here, with YOUNG tempers flying when anyone calls attention to obvious misconceptions, attention, they consider to be, somehow, a slight on their manhood in some way!

This forum has so many misconceptions,being spread, as true, borne of reading Hunting Rag writers, who have never hunted anyplace but game ranches, for anything more dangerous than a 30 lb Javalina. Yet their words are golden, while people who have spent a lifetime chaseing bite-backs in the weeds of the world, are somehow not to be listened to! SHEEEEEEEESH!!! GONE!!!!!!!!

jorge the NON-HACKER still nothing of value to post. Must admit you've not learned a thing.

And Mac, I had no idea that allan wasn't your close and personal buddy. I'll retract that gladly.

Simply stating what the loud-mouth blowhard-braggart posted "here", on this Board about 300WinMags. Don't know what the blowhard-braggart posted on the African Board.

Apparently he has related more details of his illegal-poaching on threads you two have seen. I know nothing at all of his bragging on having a 458Win and that it quit working on him. Let me guess, another rag M70.

Just because a rifle is out of action doesn't excuse illegal-poaching. And it sure doesn't justify ANYONE defending his illegal-poaching actions.

By the way, if you don't enjoy reading what I post, just look at the left side of the screen and when you see my name, you can skip right on by without having to bother.

Ah, I see he's finally awakened from his Epicurean coma or he's taking a break from his Village Idiot duties at the town square.

You're right douce bag, haven't learned a thing from you, but I consider that fortuitous and I'm not going to ignore you as long as you keep lying, but you can fix that by using the search function I might suggest and show us the purported "more details."

At least you've gotten one thing right in your miserable, bitter life of a loser, I DO NOT enjoy what you post, I'm just sucking it up and performing a public service to our members by exposing you for the pathological liar that you are. jorge

PS: While you are at it please expand on what constitutes "illegal" poaching as opposed to "legal." BTW, Allen took the buffalo with the full concurrence of the Tanzanian Game Dept Scout, so is that "legal poaching?"

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
... While you are at it please expand on what constitutes "illegal" poaching as opposed to "legal." BTW, Allen took the buffalo with the full concurrence of the Tanzanian Game Dept Scout, so is that "legal poaching?"

I'm certainly not an expert on African Laws and who makes them, just going by what I read in this thread posted by mac.

On one hand mac "claims" it is illegal to hunt Buff with medium calibers. Then we hear it is OK "if" a Game Scout says it is OK.

Perhaps I just don't understand the Authority and Legal implication of an African "Game Scout". According to mac and the non-hacker alan didn't break the law by killing a Buff with his 300WinMag.

Where I hunt, a Game Scout does nothing but locate the Game for someone who is incapable of doing it for themselves. And the Game Scout has absolutely no say in whether something can be illegal one minute and at his whim deem it as legal the next.
---

So, I've either learned just how powerful an African Game Scout is(able to make and break Laws at will), or mac and the non-hacker have gotten their stories so confused that it "appears" they are covering-up illegal poaching. I'm reluctant to say mac is a lier, simply because I don't read that many of his posts, so I don't know.

Beats me as to where the truth lies, or if the truth is being lied about.

Do know alan is and always will be nothing but an: inconsiderate, ill-mannered, very-stupid, sniveling and whining, self-aggrandizing, loud-mouth, blow-hard, braggart(and now perhaps a poacher) as can easily be seen in:

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/groupee/forums/a/tp...1043/m/625100973/p/3

or where he explains that Echol's rifles are perfect and all other Gunsmiths produce nothing but trash:

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/groupee/forums/a/tp...1043/m/317106703/p/1
---

I also found it extremely interesting that when alan "announced" he was leaving AR that the vast majority of the folks responding to that very long thread were only to happy to be rid of the inconsiderate, ill-mannered, very-stupid, sniveling and whining, self-aggrandizing, loud-mouth, blow-hard, braggart. Many of them never spoke up about it before, but they sure cleared the air at that time.
---

And since neither cleared it up, I'd guess the 458WinMag was indeed a CRF rag M70. Interesting that neither of them commented on it.

quote:

Where I hunt, a Game Scout does nothing but locate the Game for someone who is incapable of doing it for themselves. And the Game Scout has absolutely no say in whether something can be illegal one minute and at his whim deem it as legal the next.
---

No, where you hunt a "game scout" is an in-bred one tooth wonder who has problems sorting out their relatives from their concubines, and hasn't purchased a hunting license (or a tooth brush) in a decade. And from the looks of it, haven't quite mastered the english language. I read both of the threads proferred for "evidence" and nowhere did I read where all other custom rifles were {sic} "trash."

As far as your last sentence regarding the 458, yes it was indeed a M70 actioned rifle that a gunsmith overworked the trigger and made it way too light for the caliber, once again proving NOTHING as to the virtues or maladies of the Model 70.

Go back to the rocking chair, your pig's feet appetizer and jug of firewater. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
... I read both of the threads proferred for "evidence" and nowhere did I read where all other custom rifles were "trash."

Once again you prove that Reading Comprehension and Mental Sharpness are not working well for you.

quote:

As far as your last sentence regarding the 458, yes it was indeed a M70 actioned rifle that a gunsmith overworked the trigger and made it way too light for the caliber, once again proving NOTHING as to the virtues or maladies of the Model 70...

Since it takes about 2 minutes to "adjust" a M70 trigger, then either the person using it had no clue at all about how the design operates, or that wasn't the problem at all.

It also says a whole lot about the "experience level" that mac mentioned in his post. alan taking a rifle after dangerous game with an improperly adjusted trigger(according to jorge), does seem to fit my image of his experience level.

Apparently mac's view of an experience level, and what I view as an experienced Hunter are totally different. Maybe he was refering to poaching. Kind of makes me wonder what else mac is full of beans about.
---

And of course it is still a complete failure of another rag M70 CRF rifle. Otherwise, it would have been used.

To read mac's posts, ALL CRFs are totally perfect.

Jorge, and Hotcore, I could be wrong, but I seem to remember his 458 went out of service because of a broken stock,in the wrist, not a FUBAR trigger! It's been about 5 yrs ago, and I've seen a lot of post in the last 5 yrs!

Might be time to put this one to bed.

Thank you Mac. That could happen on any solid Termite Food stock and makes more sense about "why" the rifle would be useless.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Jorge, and Hotcore, I could be wrong, but I seem to remember his 458 went out of service because of a broken stock,in the wrist, not a FUBAR trigger! It's been about 5 yrs ago, and I've seen a lot of post in the last 5 yrs!

Nope, it was a trigger issue. Set too light and it slamfired. With no tools out in the bush (lesson learned there), he had to use his 300 with 180 Failsafes. jorge

All I will say is that Ive never had a CRF feeding/extracting issue that couldnt be fixed and I mean fixed good. I cant say the same about a couple of PF rifles Ive had.