In line with the Hughes principal of maximum attributtion, I found this picture on 24 Hour Campfire:



The post is by chestsprings , and goes like this:

quote:

Rem 700 bolt.

Was out shooting two of my 06's this morning. When I loaded a round in this 06, it was tight. Didn't even close the bolt. As soon as it started to tighten, I stopped, & tried to open the bolt with my hand , no luck.

Came home & got my rubber mallet ( about 2 inches in diameter) . A few light taps, then a harder one, & I got two pieces of my bolt.

Now after I take it to a gunsmith to get it welded. I guess it's back to "fit4Duty" for touch up.

The next picture of interest to me is this one posted by crossfireoops:

quote:

I've got a pile more of these, somewheres......Used to TIG weld the originals back on....the analysis changed, when they apparently went from forgings, to investment casting....the new ones don't weld worth a Krap, so now fit aftermarkets.

The dark areas visible , in the area "Induction copper brazed" is evidence of poor "Wet out", ......a problem with the flux, or poor degreasing.......maybe? Don't know all that much about the process,

This is a super common problem , though.........I suspect it's a mite worse, recently.

As Nikon says, "Coolpix".

quote:

This is a super common problem , though.........

While it happens, "super common" might be stretching it a bit....

I'll bet this same poster is the type to claim that his Winchester (or Ruger, or Browning, or Mauser, or whatever) NEVER has failed in any way.

Seems to be one of the things Remington bashers like to jump on. But before we think that's the only problem out there, do a search for Winchester feeding problems (on the vaunted, unfailable, CRF actions), Ruger, etc.

They've all got problems, it's just a matter of which flavor on which day....

quote:

This is a super common problem , though

Commonly reported might be a better statement.

That said I'll never understand why supporters of brand X seem to want to justify the flaws in that product by pointing to the flaws in other products.

We clearly know that Remington has a problem with bolt handles coming off. We don't know the severity of the problem. Super common is not likely justified.

I've owned two Remington bolt guns in my life and the bolt handle broke off one of them. So I only know of one personaly.

The first picture appears to be a defect in the steel (bad casting?) since the handle didn’t “come offâ€...it broke off leaving the cocking cam portion still brazed to the bolt body.

The process of high-temperature brazing is a sound one used in many applications in industry requiring far more strength than a rifle bolt handle...but it is totally dependent upon using good materials, proper fitting/prep and technique, and having good quality control throughout. If one or more of those is lacking you get what you see in those pictures.

I’m a fan of Remington actions (not their complete rifles) but even a fan like me realizes that their quality control and quest to pump out rifles as fast as possible has resulted in shoddy workmanship becoming almost the norm.

Most (if not all) of the firearms manufacturers employ “workers†now rather than “craftsmen†and their products are examples of that.

I can take a Rem or leave it. But seems like many of the handle failures include a mallet of somekind.

quote:

Originally posted by Gringo Cazador:
I can take a Rem or leave it. But seems like many of the handle failures include a mallet of somekind.

Billy,

I have noticed the same...but in all fairness a properly fitted/brazed joint should withstand beating with a wooden mallet all day long. That first picture actually shows how strong a brazed joint can be since the cocking cam portion of the handle is still attached and the steel gave way before the rest of the brazed joint did.

quote:

I can take a Rem or leave it. But seems like many of the handle failures include a mallet of somekind.

once while " vapo rizing prairie dog s and using a Rem 700 in 22-250 I somehow got a bad shell in the gun and locked it up tighter than a bulls ass in fly time.

I used the only thing I could find to "Beat" the action open.....a rock....and yes it eventually opened the action. The primer pocket of that brass had opened .023 and the imprint of the brass was on the boltface and the words 22-250 was clearly read on the boltface.

I removed the casing and went back to shooting. No damage to the gun of any kind except for the marks I left on the bolt handle. It was either that or go home and I was there for the three day weekend to shoot.

A gentle tap from a large grizzly bear can knock a man 10 feet. So it would have been interesting to observe that specific gentle tap being administered to the bolt handle.

I'd like to add that whenever one buys ANY factory rifle of ANY model from ANY large volume manufacturer, he is basically buying a "platform" to use with factory ammo for not very exacting shooting purposes.

If he wants surgical precision, or to use ammo of his own construction which may or may not match SAAMI dimensions, or unfailing feeding, then he should anticipate that the rifle will likely need modification to finally get exactly what he demands.

If he is not willing to put the money, sweat, thought, and perhaps even tears into it to assure he can use it best where, when, how, and with what he wants to feed it, then he is almost bound to be disappointed, perhaps frequently.

fwiw I think the new bolt handles are powdered metal and not castings.....

I too have/had more than a few Rem 700's and haven't lost a bolt handle yet. And I know more than a few guys around here and they haven't had the problem either. The only broken ones I've seen are those that have been posted here and other sites. Shit happens. If it was such a big deal, it would be a real boon to all the smiths out there. I think it's kinda like,"I'm gonna replace my extractor with a Sako, those Remington extractors a real pieces of shit". If a person is all that worried about Remingtons's faults, use something else for your DG rifle. It starts gettin' serious when they're in the wire.

I drilled and tapped mine for a socket head cap screw. Saw it on a couple of sniper rifles...looked like good preventative medicine.

I know 2 guys that this has happened to one was after the shot on a raghorn with a 300 ultra, if the bull hadn't gone down it would have been a disaster, the other was a 25-06, with a stuck shell a rap with the palm of the hand broke it off

quote:

If a person is all that worried about Remingtons's faults, use something else for your DG rifle.

I think you'll find that most folks do use something else.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
A gentle tap from a large grizzly bear can knock a man 10 feet. So it would have been interesting to observe that specific gentle tap being administered to the bolt handle.

I'd like to add that whenever one buys ANY factory rifle of ANY model from ANY large volume manufacturer, he is basically buying a "platform" to use with factory ammo for not very exacting shooting purposes.

If he wants surgical precision, or to use ammo of his own construction which may or may not match SAAMI dimensions, or unfailing feeding, then he should anticipate that the rifle will likely need modification to finally get exactly what he demands.

If he is not willing to put the money, sweat, thought, and perhaps even tears into it to assure he can use it best where, when, how, and with what he wants to feed it, then he is almost bound to be disappointed, perhaps frequently.

Very well said...and very correct!

I have been shooting Remmys since my first purchase of an ADL 308 win. in 1973. I've stuck many cases over the years in very many Remingtons and beat unmercifully with brass, plastic, wooden and steel hammers. I gratefully never once experienced a bolt handle failure in maybe 40 different Remmys. KAKA does happen at times and every product has failures at one time or another. That's the nature of mass production. I love my Remingtons but have enough horse sense to use a Mauser for a DGR to protect my biscuits in the field. For the millions of the silver soldered bolt handles out there the failure rate is quite low. They all have there place in the scheme of things.

quote:

Originally posted by Gringo Cazador:
I can take a Rem or leave it. But seems like many of the handle failures include a mallet of somekind.

Yeah, that and ammunition that does not fit the chamber in which someone is attempting to put it.

AllanD

although not planned, that gives fokls the opportunity to replace with an aftermarket bolt with more of a teardrop shape just right for engraving.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=688776

A little metal work, and that could look badass. and a drill and tap for grub screw could work too.

One time just for the hell of it I was going to install a Remington bolt in a low numbered Springfield 03. I thought better of it though because I was afraid of creating a condition that might end life as we know it on earth!

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
One time just for the hell of it I was going to install a Remington bolt in a low numbered Springfield 03. I thought better of it though because I was afraid of creating a condition that might end life as we know it on earth!

Yeah, just think what would happen if you did that to a Mauser.

I see where my bolt handle is "making the rounds"

Some additional info.

I bought this rifle new in 1962, & it has served me well every yr. hunting. I shoot it a lot , not only in hunting season. & am on my 4th barrel.

I don't remember ever having a case being tight in this rifle before, & as I stated I "lightly tapped" it twice, then I gave it a harder tap with a RUBBER MALLET.

I like Rem rifles, & didn't post it as a negative, only as info.

It was my own "dumb mistake", that with the 2 06's, I grabbed a case for the other, which I had loaded to a longer OAL. Same load, bullet, etc.

A gunsmith is going to fix it this coming week.

Gene

I've run Remington and winchester rifles for years.

I've seen exactly five bolt handles fail. The first was a M700 in .223rem.,the guy overloaded the cartridge and stuck the bolt. He managed to get the handle up,but couldn't get the bolt to release. It was in a dog town,so he placed the rifle butt down and stood on the bolt handle. Breaking it off after several tries. It bent before it finally broke. So the brazing wasn't in question.

The second was a M700 in 22-250. Overloaded again,in a dog town. The only hammer available,was a three pound sledge. Smacked the handle twice and got a partial break in handle.

The remaining three rifles were M70's at the range. All were being shot at various times over the years for load development. All three failures were identical,in that the handle lifted up,but the bolt remained in place. The connection between handle and bolt seperated and stripped.

The bottom line is all rifles are as sound as the idiot shooting them.

quote:

A gunsmith is going to fix it this coming week.

Gene

Gene,
Take a look at one of those Billingley & Brownell's bolt handles from Brownells.

When I pulled the bolt handle (newer stainless pot metal variety with very spotty brazing) off of my worked over VSS the gunsmith replaced it with one of the above metioned bolt handles. I liked it a lot better than the original bug-eye style.

Thanks for posting the picture. How is the Cerakote holding up?

lawndart

lawndart,

In the spring of 2005, I had Pac-nor put a new barrel on this 06. Had them send it to "Fit4Duty". when talking to Doug ( at Fit4duty) he asked me if I wanted to try the "new" micro slick in the barrel, & front of bolt. Said he was going to start adv. it. Would cost $50.00. Told him sure.

When I recv. the rifle, I thought they did a real good job of applying the creakote. I think the finish is great for a hunting rifle. If a person is real particular, & wants to see a real deep blue, then it's not that. I use my rifles, not abuse them , so am not fussy about a rich deep bluing.

I shoot a lot of Barnes X's. I was shooting the 168 TSX's, & after 20 or so rounds I started to clean the barrel, it came out a "black/grey". Called Doug, & he reminded me of micro slick, ( DA! me) shouldn't need to clean as often ( old habits are hard to break).

I now shoot 40 to 50 TSX's before I clean, but I now only run a few wet patches , run a brush thru it once or twice, & a few more patches, & then go shoot. I hate to clean rifles.

I used the rifle in the rain quite a few days ( in Va. we can hunt deer 6 weeks, & I hunt every day). I have brushed it against trees, brush, etc. & it seems to be holding up real well. I guess I need to put a few more yrs. on it, to really know.

Gene

Thanks for the report.

I think I'l try that finish on a .308 WIN I'm having built up for my youngest boy.

Will try it in Federal Brown.

Will try the bore treatment as well.

John

lawndart

You know, if someone was going to come up with a “new†bolt design wouldn’t it be nice to have the headspacing feature of the Lee-Enfields where the head of the bolt is easily swapped out by the user for one with a different headspacing length?

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
You know, if someone was going to come up with a “new†bolt design wouldn’t it be nice to have the headspacing feature of the Lee-Enfields where the head of the bolt is easily swapped out by the user for one with a different headspacing length?

Well.... this could easily be done on a Savage 110-series rifle but considering the ease of adjusting the barrel.....

AllanD

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
You know, if someone was going to come up with a “new†bolt design wouldn’t it be nice to have the headspacing feature of the Lee-Enfields where the head of the bolt is easily swapped out by the user for one with a different headspacing length?

Well.... this could easily be done on a Savage 110-series rifle but considering the ease of adjusting the barrel.....

AllanD

True, but thought it would be a handy feature for other types of rifles that don’t have quick change barrels.

Friday I spoke with someone who looked into the handle welding of aftermarket Rem700 actions.

He was quite opinionated about how Remington might be doing it, and how aftermarket bolt hadles should be attached.

He said that gas welding the brasing would contaminate it if the flame hit the brass directly. He speculated that Rem did it with a brass foil and induction coil around the bolt, inside a gas chamber.

He said that the aftermarket bolts should have a stub sticking out to TIG weld onto, like a Mauser.

Remington uses a very high temperature copper alloy brazing material in tape form and the parts are in fact heated electrically.

Early 700 bolt handles were forged, later ones were cast.

Believe it or not many gunsmiths aren't worth a shit at welding. Most farm it out.

They usually farm work out to a metalsmith. Many of these guys build bits and spurs for a living and have hardcore welding backgrounds.

quote:

Originally posted by sledder:
Believe it or not many gunsmiths aren't worth a shit at welding. Most farm it out.

They usually farm work out to a metalsmith. Many of these guys build bits and spurs for a living and have hardcore welding backgrounds.

Are those union metalsmiths?