Ted Gorsline said he saw an M70 failure in the field that looked like this:

"I do not have a Model 70 in front of me but what happened is the whole assembly on the rear of the bolt that includes the cocking piece, safety and shroud spun over 90 degrees to where it made closing the bolt and thus reloading impossible."

It sounds like the pawl failed? Anybody seen this? Anybody know how to inspect/ do Preventive Maintenance to detect an incipient failure of this type before it happens?

Thanks,

I saw that happen on a Ruger M77, when the bolt handle was turned down while the bolt was back, IIRC.

It cammed over, and would not close. The bolt had to be removed, field stripped, and re-assembled.

George

If the action is opened with the safety on and one depresses the detent that maintains orientation the entire assy. can rotate......and of course will not close.

One can manually force this to happen if the safety is set to fire but it's more difficult.

It's never happened to me and I've been shooting M-70 for a bit now.

IMO it's an operator failure and not an M-70 failure.

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
I saw that happen on a Ruger M77, when the bolt handle was turned down while the bolt was back,
George

Id on't see how is this even possible on a model 70? Perhaps I am misunderstanding you...

The Model 70 has a little spring loaded device called the "Breech bolt sleeve lock" which when depressed, allows the breech bolt sleeve/firing pin assembly to turn. If the lock, or, it's notch is worn, then this will allow the assembly to turn out of battery. Look there.

Not to say that this is what happened on this particular rifle...but it’s always funny when people don’t operate their rifles properly and then choose to call it a “rifle failure.â€

I had a brake failure in my car once because I stepped on the brake pedal but decided to keep the accelerator to the floor also!

quote:

Originally posted by malm:
The Model 70 has a little spring loaded device called the "Breech bolt sleeve lock" which when depressed, allows the breech bolt sleeve/firing pin assembly to turn. If the lock, or, it's notch is worn, then this will allow the assembly to turn out of battery. Look there.

Yes, this makes sense.

One could almost call this a design flaw (albeit one with a useful side - quick bolt stripping), because that little square cut out in the bolt handle could, in principle, fill will ice or mud or whatever (as it is exposed with the bolt closed) and thus prevent the breech bolt sleeve lock from springing into place, thus causing the problem on reloading.

Very interesting. Which, if any, Mausers, share this design feature?

mauser fans, you can repeat this.. and it was a problem with the MRCs


take your shroud off
take teh detent OUT (this simulates several problems, like the spring breaking)

put the bolt back together

open the bolt
apply light pressure to the shroud

now you can cuss me for telling you to do this.


it is an inherent risk in the design... that is, if parts fail, this can happen


and, btw, it CAN happen in a part's mauser, if the detent is cut a hair back and the bolt is cut a hair forward

jeffe

OK, so it's a "breech bolt sleeve lock" and not a "pawl". I figured it was that little gizmo that failed somehow.

I had not thought of dirt keeping it from engaging - that makes sense.

But I take it from the posts here that it's not a known common point of failure - that's the main thing I wanted to know.

Thanks,

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
mauser fans, you can repeat this.. and it was a problem with the MRCs

and, btw, it CAN happen in a part's mauser, if the detent is cut a hair back and the bolt is cut a hair forward

jeffe

jeffe:

Just to clarify for my own edification. This issue could arise, in theory, then with any Mauser 96/98 as well? Or are you saying the Mauser design prevents this issue, unless you start mixing and matching parts from various rifles? TIA...

quote:

But I take it from the posts here that it's not a known common point of failure - that's the main thing I wanted to know.

No machine is perfect. Just reminds us that we should do all we can to maintain our rifles, regardless of PF, CRF, etc. Maintain springs, keep things clean, keep triggers gunk free, etc. Give Murphey as little leverage as possible...

You can get into trouble here... if ya'll remember, the first MRCs were plagued with this problem...

the mauser 98, and the models styled from it, as all possible candidates for this failure...


and it's a PIA to fix in the field.. right after you've been gored, tossed, scratched and r u n n o v r!!
jeffe

Cock on closing Mausers can do the same thing when the
action is open with the safety in the in the middle position.

AllanD

Gorsline posted a similar remark in another forum on this site, with the implication that only Mausers were to be trusted.

As pointed out above, any Mauser-type design - this to include the M70 - can be made to malfunction in this way. But doing so requires either deliberate effort, misfitted parts or willful neglect.

In a ~ 15 year highpower competion career (US-NRA), I never once saw this failure in a M70. These across-the-course rifles typically have thousands of rounds through the actions - often tens of thousands, and additional thousands of bolt cycles in dry-firing.

Test your own rifle by opening the bolt with safety in the normal 'fire' position, depress the sleeve lock, try turning the entire bolt sleeve to the left (counter-clockwise). Substantial effort should be required to move the cocking finger out of its notch in the bolt. Anything less means either a poorly fitted cocking finger, or an exceptionally weak striker/firing pin spring. (Before doing this, be sure you have a plan to get the durn thing cocked again...)

Anoher idle thought... used to be the boys having a 'pre-war' M70, and being dissatisfied with the original-pattern safety, would switch out the entire bolt sleeve - striker assembly for one having the later dog-leg safety. If they were exceptinally lucky, the swap might work perfectly. But the sleeve lock of the replacement sometimes would not engage properly the locking notch in the bolt. (And the safety might not work properly, firing pin/bolt face protrusion might be ok, or not enough, or [safety alarm here] too much. The rifle might not even cock at all... and so forth.) Not a good plan, leading potentially to all kinds of problems.