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Their contingency plan for the unexpected was using an alleged "professional" to find a dream hunt for their father. Unfortunately, It appears that all Jeff Blair cared about was pocketing his portion of the money, after that they were on their own. This catastrophe started and ended with Jeff Blair. He has shown the entire hunting community just what kind of person he truly is by refusing to refund his commission that he somehow feels he "earned" | |||
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Flippy, thank you for pointing out the lack of paperwork, contracts, contingency plans etc. Bottom line is that how this transaction, discussed here, took place is STANDARD in the booking industry. The money is GONE and the customer has virtually ZERO chance of ever seeing a dime of it again. Who cares what BWW did or didn't do. They are 10% of the issue. The issue is tens of thousands of dollars went to an "outfitter" who then didn't deliver the product he was paid for. Don't cover that issue up by jumping up and down and calling BWW names, that only makes you look foolish and petty. Drummond you are totally full of crap. As someone in the industry you have first hand knowledge of how it works. BWW fulfilled the terms of their contract with the hunter. Wither or not they AS AN ACT OF GOOD WILL OR SIMPLY DECENCY should return their commission is a customer service issue; nothing else. To somehow attempt to say the issue of the outfitter stealing the money is somehow something that starts and ends with the booking agent casts serious doubt upon either your motivations or intelligence. Heck Drummond by your own words all you would have done differently then BWW is to refund your commission.........what about the other 63,000? It's gone, you gonna write a check out of your own pocket to refund the difference? All you other outfitters/booking agents etc who have chimed in on this thread are quick to point out what you think BWW should do but none of you have been willing to step up and go on record as to what you would do to prevent a similar occurrence or how you would go about making the client whole when it happens. I can only draw the conclusion that you would do things substantially the same and the client would be out of luck. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times. | |||
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More horseshit. From Blair's site: (bold emphasis mine)
Apparently I and many others in here care what Blair did. If Blair's keeping the commission (BTW AFAIK there is no accounting of how much money OF this hunter's fees were actually forwarded to the guide) seems so "foolish and petty" to you, why don't you just reach into your pockets for that "petty" amount and refund it, since you seem to be representing Blair's interest in this matter. I just imagine that the hunters would be much more satisfied if Blair had done the right thing and, AT A MINIMUM, refunded the commission and any other upcharges they glommed onto. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Be even more satisfied if they, BWW or any booking agent, had tools in place to recoup the money the outfitter stole. Either way, be interested in BWW's actions all you want. They are still only 10% of the money yet they are getting 99% of the press on this thread. Seems backwards to me. BTW you admit you have no idea how much money was forwarded, which means you have no reason to suspect anything underhanded so why do you try to make it an issue? All it does is serve to confuse the facts that are undisputed by both sides. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Oh really, why don't you get the hunter's side to say that they are not disputing how much money Blair forwarded, and they know the EXACT total. Let me sum my opinion up, Jeff Blair dba Blair World Wide Hunting is a POS and anyone who is an apologist for their actions in this matter is the same thing. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Howard, I have bent over backwards to be nice and I have done my very best to simplify this for you. You have to understand everybodies frustration but for some unknown reason you continue to be an apologist for Jeff Blair and his actions. Howard, its too late for you to take this quote from Abraham Lincoln and apply it here but I'll post it anyway for future reference "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt" Drummond | |||
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Because I am not the one making those accusations. Do you really think BWW held onto money they accepted from the client on behalf of the outfitter and have not returned it to the client? Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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That is funny, I have thought of that very quote every time you or a couple of others here have accused me of, in your current words, of being "an apologist for Jeff Blair and his actions". That is so funny because nothing could be further from the truth. It just amuses me and yes frustrates me at the same time to see so much attention being expended upon assumptions, and I thinks, and as far as I knows, while the real issues this sorry tale have exposed are totally ignored. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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I feel that any fees that were sent to the outfitter were perhaps "performance based" in that a deposit was sent with the rest to be sent on completion of the hunt. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Now that seems to be the way it should be. I can't think offhand of any other industry where it's standard practice to pay months in advance of actually receiving the service. All money paid in advance is just asking for something bad to happen. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Howard, how can you stick up for a guy that took his commission and told the client this...
you think he fulfilled his obligation? he took a commission for a hunt that didn't happen and make no attempt at finding another guide, even when one here volunteered. yes, you are correct, BBW didn't keep all the money. someone got a s#!t ton of money and these guys got stiffed. BBW took his portion, Heathington got his, and a mexican landowner possibly got some. they're ALL culpable! WHY are you defending what BBW did? you can honestly sit there and say if it was YOUR money that vaporized into the ether that you would be fine with how BBW handled the situation for YOU, THE CLIENT? heath NRA Life Member Gun Control - A theory espoused by some monumentally stupid people; who claim to believe, against all logic and common sense, that a violent predator who ignores the laws prohibiting them from robbing, raping, kidnapping, torturing and killing their fellow human beings will obey a law telling them that they cannot own a gun. | |||
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Heath, my who cares comment was totally tongue in cheek to illustrate the point that BWW is only 10% of the money involved yet is getting 99+% of the press here. Obligation/customer service and contractual requirements are two different things. If you have read all my posts on this thread you would know that I am on record as saying that my expectation, if I was the client, would be that BWW would refund the commission and assist me in anyway possible in booking another hunt AND in recouping my money. That being said if having them keep their commission would increase their feeling of obligation to HELP recoup the other 90%, will then I would gladly pay 10% to get my 90% back. The one thing I wouldn't want to do, if wishing for their help, is make an enemy of them. In my business we do many things as a matter of customer service that we have no legal or contractual obligation to do. Funny thing is: with all of our customers the kinder and easier to deal with they are the more our people go the extra mile for them. Simply how human nature works. As far as the issues about failure to help find another outfitter, speaking with or efforts to assist in getting money back from the outfitter; the sides appear to disagree on just what was done. I think with the money involved (and an assumption on my part as to the financial resources of the client) that legal action against BWW would be a very valid option if as has been alleged BWW added on commission, held back money or in anyway failed to live up to the terms of the contract that both parties agreed to and signed. Heath, I am in no way defending BWW and I defy you to find anything I have written that does that. What I have attempted to do here is point out that what BWW did is substantially how the industry as a whole conducts business. Seems a very screwed up system where all parties the customer engages feel they have the right to demand payment in full well in advance of the delivery of ANY services. How do you and I as the CUSTOMER protect ourselves from a repeat occurrence? To date, despite repeated requests from me, no guide, outfitter or booking agent; and there are many visiting this thread, have seen fit to come on here and say "I understand your concern here is how I would address it". There are many here quick to say what BWW should do but extremely reluctant to say what THEY would do if it was their client. Some such as Drummond say, "I would refund my commission". Well great, much appreciated, but SCREW the 10%, get my 90% back then we can discuss the 10%. I know my points are not popular here but if you or anyone could simply step back from the attack dog, mob mentality at work here I think you would have a totally different take on my comments. Either way I am out of here for the weekend. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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If i remember correctly, earlier in these threads, on of the issues brought up was that BWW added on about an extra $10,000.00 compared to the going rate on this type of hunt. Fulfilled his obligation???? | |||
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Howard: I might largely agree with you if it were not for the words in BWW's promotional material regarding taking no chances. He created an expectation for which, he can't deliver. Also, he sent the balance of the money AFTER some rather well know bizarre incidents involving Heathington. | |||
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Hi Larry, my comments don't really reference BWW much. So you can agree with me and totally leave BWW out of it.  LOL Where do you draw the line between marketing hype or reality? I agree with you.........if I was the client I would consider attempting to make an issue of just that..........however will marketing ad copy trump a written and signed contract? I have no idea. I also have not forgotten about the alleged timeline with the payments. Again that could be an issue if indeed BWW knew of the lack of performance issues and forwarded funds anyway. However that is only speculation here and I don't believe we know any actual facts concerning a timeline.Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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It really makes no difference how one looks at it. Taking a commission for a hunt that did NOT go on, due to no fault of the clients, is absolutely unacceptable. | |||
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Howard......please explain why one needs an agent if they have NO responsibility regarding one's hunt. BTW, I've decided to become a booking agent.....can everyone send me 50k and I promise that I will book you on the hunt of a lifetime (no gambles......meaning if your money disappears and no hunt takes place don't bother calling me). I'll name it NWW...... | |||
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Why are you asking me? Ask the agents. Haven't you been following this thread? I have asked that very question, although in different words, several times. Here is my original post, from back in June, that lead up to all this back and forth that has caused me to be called a fool and BWW apologist. Still makes me laugh.
So yes I would like to know......... 1. Why should I use a booking agent? 2. How will you protect me if things go wrong or if the outfitter/guide; gets sick, goes broke, dies, or runs off with your wife and my money? 3. Are you bonded or insured or have some other means to make me whole if for ANY reason thats not my fault I don't receive the hunt I contracted for? 4. What is your process for handling disputes and disagreements that arise? 5. Your commission is paid for by the outfitter you broker a deal for yet you are signing a contract with me. Legally who do you represent, the client or the outfitter, and do the laws vary in the various states you sell hunts in? Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Norton to answer your question directly. I am not sure why I would need a booking agent. I think I have the ability to go directly to the outfitter/guide. I think it's the outfitters and guides that need the booking agents to bring customers to them. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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You hire an agent to avoid the very thing that happened here. The agent is supposed to have a knowledge of which providers have the best track record, offer the best dollar value, and give the best product. You hire an agent to avoid dealing with the time consuming, nit pick things that occur, like checking references. You hire an agent so you will have a resource for information that a new comer would not commonly have. You hire an agent to protect you from unscrupulous vendors. You hire an agent to avoid the peril of booking direct with an unknown provider that you perhaps read about in the back of a magazine or picked up a slick brochure at a trade show. An agent has a feduciary obligation to see that the service or product you receive is exactly as prosented. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Any questions about this "outfitter" can be answered by a search of the Outfitters forum. A crook is a crook is a crook, regardless of what their apologists say. ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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Howard, at the least, Blair owes his commission back to the client. That is the very least! He didn't even try to help reconcile the hunt as Drummond offered. I would never book a hunt with Blair. "There are worse memorials to a life well-lived than a pair of elephant tusks." Robert Ruark | |||
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Howard, Not everyone has the background or time to research every outfitter out there. That's why there are booking agents. Just like stocks. I've never been able to figure out the stock market. That's why I hire a broker. Same w/ buying and selling homes. The question is would you hire BWW for your hunt if you weren't savy in the hunting world? I see no difference to what BWW did than if a real estate agent ran off with the earnest money should the transaction fall thru. | |||
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See question 5 in my above post. How do you know the booking agent represents you? He is getting paid out of the outfitters price. Your analogy to the real estate agent is not valid. Big difference between earnest money, which is NEVER the agents and commission which the seller has contractually agreed to pay. I agree that not everyone out there has the time to conduct research, I also use a investment broker for the same reasons you do, however if he loses all my money he still gets his commission because he is paid on the amount I give him not the amount of profit he makes. And if the company he invests your money in goes broke he doesn't refund your money does he? Nor does he refund his commission. Either way its all well and good when things work out the way they should. If they don't, just how many booking agents do you think that are out there that can write you a refund check in the tens of thousands of dollars? I would wager almost none which leads me right back to my list of questions. SBT why are you telling me that? I am on record on this thread several times saying that very thing. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Howard, you're totally right, there should have been a contract or something in writing, other than a BS promise on a website. You'll forgive me if I don't remember each of your posts and their content. this thread has been going for some time, and i haven't read it through since the beginning.  if i were the client, i would gladly forget the 10% if the person i contracted with would help me recover the lost money or rebook the hunt. i fully agree with you there. and if i remember correctly there were legal proceedings in the works.
alright Howard, thank you for making this statement. much of what you're pointed out can easily be construed (obviously, as the dog pile shows) as sticking up for BBW. Never having booked a hunt, through an agent or otherwise, it does provide an opportunity for shady businessmen to take the money and run, as it were. i think i see what you're saying regarding what the other booking agents would do. i don't recall seeing where they say they would pay another outfitter out of their pocket to rebook the hunt, especially with a hunt like this in the $60,000 range (which, BTW, is freaking unfathomable to me!). many outfitters say they would guide it for free, but BBW isn't a guide, they're only an agent. will someone have to pay $60,000 again? i seem to recall there was contact with the mexican landowner who had already been paid and an guide that said they'd guide for free. with heathington on his deathbed (again?) the money paid to him is likely gone. but if the other parties involved were still on board and paid, why could the hunt not progress? did heathington have the only contact with the mexican landowner, or did BBW? the whole thing is wacky, for sure! Thanks Howard, for providing much thought provoking reading, but perhaps a different thread would be more appropriate to bring up the questions you ask. leave this thread to the hanging of BBW AND heathington? heath NRA Life Member Gun Control - A theory espoused by some monumentally stupid people; who claim to believe, against all logic and common sense, that a violent predator who ignores the laws prohibiting them from robbing, raping, kidnapping, torturing and killing their fellow human beings will obey a law telling them that they cannot own a gun. | |||
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Heath, I don't disagree with anything you said, in particular the part about my comments being more appropriate on a different thread. I also had never asked myself why the remaining parties, booking agent, Mexican landowner, Mexican outfitter, guides etc couldn't have banded together and saved at least some of the hunt. I suspect though that the money stopped flowing at Heathington. After all finding a replacement guide to actually conduct the hunt would be just about the least costly part of the operation. Great points btw. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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bringing this abomination back to page 1 | |||
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Wow, The wonder of the internet. I came to this forum specifically to investigate mountain lion hunting, and had recently phoned Blair. They've been cold calling me by phone and internet for so long that I thought I'd give them a shot. Thanks for the heads up! I'd also been talking to them about a Dall Sheep hunt in AK. The outfitter seemed very reputable. Don | |||
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glad to be of help  | |||
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Is Heathington dead yet? | |||
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Bringing it to the top. | |||
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Thanks for keeping this visible. As one who lost money, (although not as much as some people) it's the least that can be done. | |||
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Did anyone else notice in the latest paper that S.C.I. put out there was a change in the ethics comm on how they would handle a situation such as this. Maybe they read this fourm? | |||
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What was the change that they made? | |||
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I spoke to Jeff Blair yesterday, he said the Henriksens recieved a judgement against Heathington last week for full reimbursement of everything including legal expenses, I reckon wiping their asses with that judgement would give it it's greatest value.  | |||
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so Mr. Blair is keeping tabs on the situation? has he helped in any way? NRA Life Member Gun Control - A theory espoused by some monumentally stupid people; who claim to believe, against all logic and common sense, that a violent predator who ignores the laws prohibiting them from robbing, raping, kidnapping, torturing and killing their fellow human beings will obey a law telling them that they cannot own a gun. | |||
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As would by typical of most judgements. Not worth the paper they are written on. The way the laws of this country are stacked against the creditor is criminal. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Thanks for that update. Are you friendly with him? | |||
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It didn't sound like it, and he specifically stated that he had no responsibility to.
Agreed
not "no" but "hell no". | |||
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