quote:

Originally posted by Brian Clark:
Heathington was charging $60,000 for this hunt, Blair charged $70,000 not sure that is speculation. Commissions are not just earned at the time deposits are made, we earn them from the start of the booking of hunts all the way to the follow up with client after the hunt. As far going on record as what I would do, I already have done so in this thread.

Perhaps I missed something. How do we know what Heathington charged?

Perhaps you can explain to us just how commissions are earned and how the timeline is suppose to work.

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Clark:
Heathington was charging $60,000 for this hunt, Blair charged $70,000 not sure that is speculation. Commissions are not just earned at the time deposits are made, we earn them from the start of the booking of hunts all the way to the follow up with client after the hunt. As far going on record as what I would do, I already have done so in this thread.

Perhaps I missed something. How do we know what Heathington charged?

Perhaps you can explain to use just how commissions are earned and how the timeline is suppose to work.

Wow Howard, why are you wishing to fight with me? There are plenty of information in this 600 post thread about what Heathington was charging for these hunts. As far as me earning my commissions go Do you think once clients send me money all contact stops and and additional help and information stops, No! I like to make sure clients have all information and concerns taken care of prior to their hunt, I am making sure they have all licenses and tags taken care of, I make sure they have all travel information needed for there hunt to arrive on time and accommodations are handle prior to their arrival, I make sure they have outfitters and guides contact info prior to arrival, I am in contact with outfitters during the hunt to ensure all is going well. I follow up with the client after the hunt to see if there is anything we could have done to make the hunt more enjoyable. So just getting deposit check and contract does not end my part of the job. Do you think Jeff Blair did all these thing for this client? In my opinion No he did not, thus he did not deserve a commission.

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Clark:

Wow Howard, why are you wishing to fight with me?

Wow Brian, did I touch a nerve? I have noticed that the most strident anti BWW posts on this thread are from other individuals in the industry. However I politely requested two different times with the simple, reasonable question: How should this situation have been handled?

As far as Heathingtons fees/charges...........wow.......if you accept internet postings as facts...........well all I can say is I hope you apply the same liberal burden of proof standards to your accuser if you are ever accused of wrong doing.

So no I am not picking a fight with you nor am I accusing you of anything. Saying that the extra fees are not proven is an accurate comment. Asking another outfitter/booking agent who has taken part in the conversation how they would have handled the situation seems to be a very reasonable question. Why do you feel that is picking a fight with you?

Well at least we are keeping this thread alive. Good day sir.

Howard---It would seem that you are more than a little naive if you are questioning why other agents are weighing in on this scumbag so heavily! The reason is that it makes people feel that the whole booking agent system is a scam and they will lose business because of this crook.

Morningmist---Blair took his fee right off the top when the down payment was made, so he isn't out any money at all. That's the whole problem with this deal. Blair should have at least given the hunter back his booking fee and also shouldn't have accepted the second part of the payment because it appears he was aware that the outfitter was scamming people by that time, if not before. He could have at least put a stop to the whole thing then, but didn't. A booking agent works for both the outfitter he respresents, as well as the hunter, to cement an acceptable deal between the two parties and part of his job is to insure that everything represented and agreed upon is followed through to the end of the hunt.

Topgun thank you for your clarification on how that works, I remember when it was all over the news about Heathington going missing..I never really caught whether that was before or after the 2nd payment.I know if I book a vacation thru a travel agent and they made all the arrangements and I get there and the accomidations are not what was promised the booking agent doesn't refund there commission although they may cut me a discount on another booking. Just my experience not in the hunt world. It sure seems to me that Heathington has the largest amount of the money and nobody seems to be blaming him.

To Brian Clark.....no I do not know the people of Blair World wide and no one suggested I post anything....I just think if we are involved in witch hunting we should be sure the witch we are burning is totally to blame. Has anyone checked the court system to see if Blair has a lawsuit against Heathington.

I checked a few months ago. There was no lawsuit at that time. There could be now. I have no idea.

A wise man once told me that ones position on any issue depends on which chair they are sitting in. I believe that is true. I hear a lot of bitching and moaning on here regarding booking agents not forwarding money timely. This situation is a prime example of why booking agents hold money. If BWW had held the money, this situation would not be so bad.

My the way, I do have all of the lawsuits against Heathington through the date I checked. He has had some other legal issues other than these lawsuits.

quote:

Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:
Howard---It would seem that you are more than a little naive if you are questioning why other agents are weighing in on this scumbag so heavily! The reason is that it makes people feel that the whole booking agent system is a scam and they will lose business because of this crook.

Every industry has it's bad apples. Bad mouthing your competition is still bad business.

I would have to disagree with that statement Howard. If the guy has a track record like a lot of people are saying BWW does, then it's certainly within their right to call a spade a spade. In this case the spade is a bonafide crook or he would have handled the matter differently and in a professional manner IMHO! Also, the guys have been after Heathington trying to find out all the particulars as to where he was to take the guy hunting, etc. He either has all the money or a good share of it if he was in cahoots with a rancher south of the border.

quote:

Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:
I would have to disagree with that statement Howard. If the guy has a track record like a lot of people are saying BWW does, then it's certainly within their right to call a spade a spade. In this case the spade is a bonafide crook or he would have handled the matter differently and in a professional manner IMHO! Also, the guys have been after Heathington trying to find out all the particulars as to where he was to take the guy hunting, etc. He either has all the money or a good share of it if he was in cahoots with a rancher south of the border.

You can disagree with me, that is your right. I disagree with you calling a person a crook based upon internet postings from people you don't know but that's just me. I don't really care who you call a crook. My comment was directed specifically towards others in the industry who have seen an opportunity to jump on a competitor. I stand by my statement that its in bad taste and poor business.

Howard,

What about the gunsmiths who came out in support of you when Greg Hein stole your money? Do you think they were just out to badmouth the competition? What about the ones, or really just one, who supported him, was he right?

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
Howard,

What about the gunsmiths who came out in support of you when Greg Hein stole your money? Do you think they were just out to badmouth the competition? What about the ones, or really just one, who supported him, was he right?

I think perhaps you misremember. They were not supporting me, absent first hand knowledge, they were stating their own experiences with the man. The Hein fiasco involved many people who came on AR and relayed experiences very similar to mine. There was no dispute of the facts.

quote:

Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:

A booking agent works for both the outfitter he respresents, as well as the hunter, to cement an acceptable deal between the two parties and part of his job is to insure that everything represented and agreed upon is followed through to the end of the hunt.

Completely agree, o/w what purpose does he serve if not to insure a great hunt? Why bother with an agent if all he does is take a chunk of money and then send the rest to his cohort in crime......er, I mean outfitter?

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
My comment was directed specifically towards others in the industry who have seen an opportunity to jump on a competitor. I stand by my statement that its in bad taste and poor business.

I had written a long thought out non feather ruffling post about the good and bad of the internet and how it pertains to this situation but I erased it. I erased it because I shouldnt have to spell it out for you why this type of thing PISSES PEOPLE OFF! It shouldnt matter if your a booking agent, an outfitter, a guide, a packer or even a camp cook. Anybody in this industry should absolutely have as much right as anybody else to be able to voice their opinion about this tragic situation! Its simply disgusting! I know for a fact that there is another booking agent that has voiced his opinion on this thread that paid $45,000 back to a hunter that was screwed by an outfitter. He didnt just give back a commission, he refunded the ENTIRE COST OF THE HUNT Howard! BWW wont even return the commission that they "earned" on this freaking disaster! Its disgusting on every level and I am sad that I have to spell this out for you.

It doesnt matter what industry you are in, this type of crap gets people riled up and shame on Blair for allowing this to happen! He and Heathington have both commented on this thread yet had no good answers for anybody. You want certain people to STFU already but in my opinion the more people getting the word out the better! How would you feel if it were you that took a $70,000 butt screwing at the hands of Blair and somebody came on and told the very people that might have enough knowledge of the industry to maybe get something done that they should not have an opinion because they "compete" with the guy that bent you over a barrel. I'm sorry Howard but IMO thats a crock of poop!

To answer another question, it has not been determined with any fact that Blair tacked on an extra charge that he kept for himself but having outfitted a number of these hunts myself and having run hunts in Mexico for nearly 20 years I can tell you that $70K was way too high a price to pay. The top end of the sheep hunts were $60K and even with a non hunting guest and a coues deer I cannot get to $70K. It simply isnt there. There is also public record of what other guys "paid" for their hunts with Heathington and none we this high. I do not want to misquote it so I wont say what I think those numbers were but they were nowhere close to $70K!

Howard, are you friends with Jeff Blair? You say its in bad taste and poor business to offer help to the victims so I am confused here. Whats the story?

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
I know for a fact that there is another booking agent that has voiced his opinion on this thread that paid $45,000 back to a hunter that was screwed by an outfitter. He didnt just give back a commission, he refunded the ENTIRE COST OF THE HUNT Howard!

But that is not what you would do is it?

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
How would you feel if it were you that took a $70,000 butt screwing at the hands of Blair

I am confused. You say that BWW did the screwing but you acknowledge that the money went to Heathington. That Heathington is the one who failed to deliver doesn't seem to be in dispute. Seems the only thing that is known for sure is that BWW refused to refund his commission. Instead he offered to rebook and waive his fee. From what I have learned since this thread started that is a not uncommon practice with booking agents in various industries. Poor customer service perhaps but hardly a butt screwing.

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
Howard, are you friends with Jeff Blair? You say its in bad taste and poor business to offer help to the victims so I am confused here. Whats the story?

Friends with Jeff Blair? Is that the best you can comeback with? My relationship or lack of with Blair is immaterial to your actions and comments. Whatever, show where I have ever insinuated that it's in bad taste and poor business to offer to help. See that is my issue, you are not offering help, you are just jumping on an opportunity to bad mouth and name call your competition. Heck you are even on record offering to put up money to purchase a client list so you can email them about how bad BWW is.

Furthermore you are on record accusing BWW of doing things that you later admit isn't proven. Just because you claim to fail to see how it adds up doesn't mean it doesn't

My experience with BWW is a matter of record on this very thread. Now that you have directly replied to me I will come out and say that you are exactly who I had in mind when I made my comments about bad mouthing the competition being in poor taste. I simple review of your posts on this thread will show how over the top vicious you have been.

Sad thing is that your childish name calling and unsubstantiated claims only divert attention away from the real issues. Maybe instead of name calling you should take a step back and ask yourself how you can use your knowledge and industry experience to help us customers better protect ourselves from these types of happenings?????????

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:



See that is my issue, you are not offering help, you are just jumping on an opportunity to bad mouth and name call your competition.

Now that you have directly replied to me I will come out and say that you are exactly who I had in mind when I made my comments about bad mouthing the competition being in poor taste. I simple review of your posts on this thread will show how over the top vicious you have been.

Sad thing is that your childish name calling and unsubstantiated claims only divert attention away from the real issues. Maybe instead of name calling you should take a step back and ask yourself how you can use your knowledge and industry experience to help us customers better protect ourselves from these types of happenings?????????

Well Howard,instead of beating around the bush you could have just asked me. Anyway, I'll make a few points tonight and finish in the morning. First of all, Blair Worlwide is not a competitor of mine, he is a booking agent and I merely guide and outfit hunts. Heathington would be more of a competitor. Also, I have never solicited business on this website, I have done this because I wanted to be able to have an opinion where nobody such as yourself could question motive.

Back to the "helping" part. Howard, I have emailed Blair and Heathington directly to find out if they had in fact paid for a sheep hunt. They claimed they gave it to the ranchers in Mexico. I offered to go guide the hunt for free Howard. Everybody happy, including myself because I just love to hunt. When Blair and Heathington didn't respond I took it upon myself to use my contacts in Mexico to get as much information as I could for all parties involved. I will not tell you what I found out other than for most people that have been following this thread it's obvious. I did this because i hate to see things like this happen Howard. I have spent hours trying to help out, I've made numerous international calls Howard, multiple emails and it all lead back to one place. You can probably guess where that was. Anyway, I've busted my butt trying to help here. Sorry that my opinion doesn't matter to you

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
I am confused.

This is abundantly obvious Howard. I will do my very best to simplify things here to help you have a better understanding of why this is wrong on multiple levels.

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
You say that BWW did the screwing but you acknowledge that the money went to Heathington. That Heathington is the one who failed to deliver doesn't seem to be in dispute. Seems the only thing that is known for sure is that BWW refused to refund his commission. Instead he offered to rebook and waive his fee. From what I have learned since this thread started that is a not uncommon practice with booking agents in various industries. Poor customer service perhaps but hardly a butt screwing.

Howard, this goes far beyond "poor customer service", this is really more of a gross negligence type of situation. Jeff Blair, being the booking agent, has a responsibility to the people that book hunts through him to make sure that the details are taken care of. Had it been a bad hunt where no animals were seen or an issue of "misrepresentation" that would be one thing. Howard, the hunt that Blair booked for them NEVER HAPPENED! He basically facilitated nothing but a robbery and this is why he should, at very least, return the commission that he held out for himself. The fact that you feel that Jeff Blairs offer to book another high dollar hunt and then waive that booking fee makes me question your motives and/or intelligence. I'm not trying to be ugly here but nobody else here on this thread, besides you and Jeff Blair himself, think that this is an acceptable solution. I find it difficult to comprehend that you can simply chalk this up to "poor customer service" and nothing more. Lets not forget that Heathington was having "issues" before Blair ever received the ramaining balance from the Henriksens! Thats a red flag that Jeff Blair chose to ignore. He gambled with other peoples money and lost!

Heathington should absolutely be held accountable as well. I feel that he has the majority of the money and I hope he gets hammered!

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
Friends with Jeff Blair? Is that the best you can comeback with?

Howard, I had to ask because you are coming on here taking the people in the hunting industry to task that are trying to help. It simply doesnt make any sense. It simply defies logic

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
Furthermore you are on record accusing BWW of doing things that you later admit isn't proven. Just because you claim to fail to see how it adds up doesn't mean it doesn't

If you will go back and reread the thread you will see where it was brought up before I ever chimed in. All I did was look at the high end of "fair market value" and add up the numbers. Even if you look at the most expensive hunts and add them up it doesnt come to $70,000 Howard. One of two things happened here, either Jeff Blair saw an opportunity to make more money off of these people because he knew they didnt know any better or he believed that $70,000 was actually a fair price to pay. Either way, it shows a lack of professionalism and/or a propensity to do or say whatever it takes to pad his account with a few extra dollars. Again, please go back and look at the judgements against eathington that were posted in this thread. Actually, let me just post them here for you...

Henriksen $70,000 plus costs and interest
Manning $49,000 plus costs and interest
Osuchowski $61,026 plus costs and interest
Peterson $48,000 plus costs and interest

Anything stand out to you Howard? Interesting how the Henriksens judgement is between $9K and $22K more than the rest of those guys! Obviously Osuchowski tallied all of his expenses up before getting his judgement but as you can clearly see Heathingtons going price for the Desert Sheep hunt was around $50,000 which was about what the market was during that time. You tell me what the extra $20,000 was for Howard? Please, I'm all ears! Dont forget, they wanted a coues deer and a non-hunting guest as well. Thats an expensive GD coues deer hunt!

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
Maybe instead of name calling you should take a step back and ask yourself how you can use your knowledge and industry experience to help us customers better protect ourselves from these types of happenings?????????

Howard, isnt this what we are all trying to do in this thread? I am trying to "use your knowledge and industry experience to help us customers better protect ourselves from these types of happenings". I am terribly sorry that you are really the only person here that fails to recognize this. I dont know what else to tell you other than if this were you in this situation and you had been screwed out of $70,000 and I had contacts that could potentially help you I would do whatever it took, no matter the cost or time, to help you! I would do this for no other reason that it would be the right thing to do.

As I stated earlier, when I took another "agent" to task years ago I knew that I would never try and solicit business on AR. I NEVER wanted anybody to question me and my motives. I will do anything for anybody, I would give anybody the shirt off of my back because thats the way my father was. That being said, when I see people get taken advantage of it pisses me off to no end.

Lastly Howard, lets look at Jeff Blairs own words on this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by BLAIR WORLDWIDE:
Blair WorldWide acted at all times in an honest, professional, and ethical manner

Howard, thats a bunch of balony and I am sorry that you cannot see it. Its incomprehensible to me to know that your actually taking people that are trying to help to task on this thread. Mind boggling!

Howard---I was in law enforcement for over 30 years and I gave many people the benefit of the doubt when they committed a first violation in my area of coverage. However, after that all bets were off! It's about the same with this BWW situation in that one time could be possibly overlooked if they had done anything positive to help the hunter. If you haven't followed this entire thread from the first post, you better do so because there are many people claiming they have either been screwed by BWW or know someone that has. That tells me that no holds are barred and anything that any of us can do to help the aggrieved party or to get the word out so others aren't screwed by this outfit is well within our right. If you don't think so, then I think you are naive enough to be the next one to get screwed by BWW, but please don't tell us we are in the wrong when talking about this crook!

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
Maybe instead of name calling you should take a step back and ask yourself how you can use your knowledge and industry experience to help us customers better protect ourselves from these types of happenings?????????

Well Howard,instead of beating around the bush you could have just asked me.

I thought I had done so.

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:

Posted 07 June 2011 15:30 Hide Post
Several of the people on this thread who have spoken out against Blair are themselves booking agents. This would seem to indicate that how Blair handled himself would be considered improper by the booking agent community at large.

That begs the question(s).

How would you have personally handled the situation if it would have happened to you and your customer?

How does the industry view such occurrences and is there an accepted practice for handling such unfortunate occurrences?

quote:

Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:
Howard---I was in law enforcement for over 30 years and I gave many people the benefit of the doubt .................................. when talking about this crook!

I can respect your 30 years and the insights into human nature that experience has to have given you. Isn't it fair to say that those years have taught you there are at least three sides to every story? His, mine and the truth. Isn't it also fair to say that you can learn a lot about how a person reacts to a situation in which they are a bystander and not a principle? Isn't it true that there always seems to be a bystander with no vested interest trying to interject themselves into the arena and causing more harm then good?

There are a few rules I try to always use.

1. Where there is smoke there is almost always fire.
2. People always embellish the facts to fit their "side" and leave out facts that don't benefit themselves.
3. There is always at least three sides to every story.
4. Honest well intentioned people frequently mis-hear, mis-understand, and draw wrong conclusions no matter how good their intentions may be.
5. With the above in mind eye-witness accounts and remembrances of who said what and when should always be taken with a grain of salt.
6. To protect yourself take the time to get in in writing.
7. Constant regular communication can prevent a world of hurt!


In these internet witch hunts there are always bystanders who jump to conclusions and don't care about the facts. They are more interested in piling on. Its very interesting to me how mob mentality works.

Just because someone refuses to join a internet witch hunt to give their side does not mean guilt nor is it reasonable to take it as such. I think all of us would react unfavorably to a bystander attempting to force their way into a business transaction in which they have no business.

There is nothing I have said that was intended to take sides with either party, BWW or the client who was indeed cheated out of tens of thousands of dollars. If anyone has drawn that conclusion then you have mis-read my intentions or I have done a poor job making my points. If the fault lies with me I apologize.

One can only wonder how detached Howard would be if it was his $70,000 that went up in smoke?

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
Maybe instead of name calling you should take a step back and ask yourself how you can use your knowledge and industry experience to help us customers better protect ourselves from these types of happenings?????????

Well Howard,instead of beating around the bush you could have just asked me.

I thought I had done so.

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:

Posted 07 June 2011 15:30 Hide Post
Several of the people on this thread who have spoken out against Blair are themselves booking agents. This would seem to indicate that how Blair handled himself would be considered improper by the booking agent community at large.

That begs the question(s).

How would you have personally handled the situation if it would have happened to you and your customer?

How does the industry view such occurrences and is there an accepted practice for handling such unfortunate occurrences?

Howard, here was my response to your question back on August 2nd...

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
The absolute first thing that I would do is refund any commission that had been paid! Then do anything and everything within your power to help recoup the rest of the money frm the outfitter. I'm not a booking agent but thats what I would do

You had mentioned that there were several people within the industry and it seemed like you were posing the question to the group as a whole, not me specifically. Last night you said that it was me who you had in mind yet when the question was posed it was not directed at me, hence, the beating around the bush comment

Any more questions or comments Howard? I'm all ears.

If not, maybe we can get back on track here.

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
In these internet witch hunts there are always bystanders who jump to conclusions and don't care about the facts. They are more interested in piling on. Its very interesting to me how mob mentality works.

Just because someone refuses to join a internet witch hunt to give their side does not mean guilt nor is it reasonable to take it as such. I think all of us would react unfavorably to a bystander attempting to force their way into a business transaction in which they have no business.

There is nothing I have said that was intended to take sides with either party, BWW or the client who was indeed cheated out of tens of thousands of dollars. If anyone has drawn that conclusion then you have mis-read my intentions or I have done a poor job making my points. If the fault lies with me I apologize.

Howard, again, with all due respect, Jeff Blair posted a statement on this very thread! He basically said that the Heriksens were SOL as it pertained to his commission. He said that they should have bought "trip insurance"! You really think that this is an "internet witch hunt"? This is simply amazing

Is this really acceptable to you? Howard, I promise you, I am trying to be as polite as possible here but my head is about to explode as I try to comprehend the things that you are saying. Are you serious here? Please tell me that your joking and just trying to get a rise out of people.

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
You had mentioned that there were several people within the industry and it seemed like you were posing the question to the group as a whole, not me specifically. Last night you said that it was me who you had in mind yet when the question was posed it was not directed at me, hence, the beating around the bush comment

Any more questions or comments Howard? I'm all ears.

My question was posted as a general question to those in the industry. Yes you did respond roughly two months later AFTER I asked the question a second time. Quite a long delay considering how on top of this thread you have been. When I made some comments about others in the industry taking the opportunity to jump a competitor you where one I had in mind as a chief instigator. Accusing someone of b__t f__king someone, being a crook and a scumbag without all the facts is nothing more then grandstanding.

So back to my original question. Based upon your answer the only thing you would have done differently is you would have promptly refunded the commission.

Do you know or can you tell did or did not BWW fulfill their responsibility under the terms of the contract? No more no less. This should be a yes or no question.

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

Is this really acceptable to you? Howard,

No of course not. I believe I am on record on this very thread saying that with the amount of money involved there is more then enough crap to splatter everyone involved.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
One can only wonder how detached Howard would be if it was his $70,000 that went up in smoke?

I would not be detached at all. I would be furious and doing everything I could to make those who screwed me pay. However I am not the one, or should I say three (father & two sons) who was ripped off. I support and would encourage them to explore all options available to recoup their money.

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
One can only wonder how detached Howard would be if it was his $70,000 that went up in smoke?

I would not be detached at all. I would be furious and doing everything I could to make those who screwed me pay. However I am not the one, or should I say three (father & two sons) who was ripped off. I support and would encourage them to explore all options available to recoup their money.

So you agree that they were ripped off, you just do not like people taking BWW to task for it?

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:

When I made some comments about others in the industry taking the opportunity to jump a competitor you where one I had in mind as a chief instigator. Accusing someone of b__t f__king someone, being a crook and a scumbag without all the facts is nothing more then grandstanding.

So back to my original question. Based upon your answer the only thing you would have done differently is you would have promptly refunded the commission.

Do you know or can you tell did or did not BWW fulfill their responsibility under the terms of the contract? No more no less. This should be a yes or no question.

Howard, you are making quite an assumption saying that I dont have any "facts". I uncovered quite a few "facts" based on my correspondence with people I have worked with in Mexico for years. I have passed on the pertinent information to the people that needed it. I dont feel the need to say anymore as per the request of individuals that are directly involved

As for answering 2 months later, I simply did not see your question, when I saw it I responded. Sorry I wasnt prompt enough for you. I've been away from home more than I've been home this summer.

Your asking me what I would have done in the same situation and I told you that the first thing I would have done would be to refund any commission I had kept for myself. I say that but the fact of the matter is this; if I were a booking agent I would not have booked that hunt for them with Heathington from the get go so its pretty much a mute point. Seventy grand for what they booked is a joke! If Blair thought that was a fair deal he shouldnt be booking hunts anyway. Basically Howard, if I were in Blairs shoes I would have worked WITH the clients. I would not have kept the commission and told them that I had fulfilled my end of the bargain and that they should have bought trip insurance. All of this being said, you have to remember that I AM NOT A BOOKING AGENT

As for your last question about whether Blair fulfillod his commitment to his contract. I have not seen the actual contract that he sends out so I cannot comment on that particularly. That being said, I went to his website and pulled this from it...

Our agency will assist you with all aspects of your trip. From applying for your permits, assisting with travel routes - right down to what to pack. We want you as a client for a lifetime and no detail is left to chance.

Based on the above passage and based on the FACTS that I have turned over to others I would have to say NO, Blair did NOT fulfill his obligation to his clients.

Anything else Howard?

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

Is this really acceptable to you? Howard,

No of course not. I believe I am on record on this very thread saying that with the amount of money involved there is more then enough crap to splatter everyone involved.

The crap is evenly distributed between Blair and Heathington. Blair should pay back the amount he kept for himself and Heathington should give back the rest. End of story Howard

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:

When I made some comments about others in the industry taking the opportunity to jump a competitor you where one I had in mind as a chief instigator. Accusing someone of b__t f__king someone, being a crook and a scumbag without all the facts is nothing more then grandstanding.

So back to my original question. Based upon your answer the only thing you would have done differently is you would have promptly refunded the commission.

Do you know or can you tell did or did not BWW fulfill their responsibility under the terms of the contract? No more no less. This should be a yes or no question.

Howard, you are making quite an assumption saying that I dont have any "facts". I uncovered quite a few "facts" based on my correspondence with people I have worked with in Mexico for years. I have passed on the pertinent information to the people that needed it. I dont feel the need to say anymore as per the request of individuals that are directly involved

As for answering 2 months later, I simply did not see your question, when I saw it I responded. Sorry I wasnt prompt enough for you. I've been away from home more than I've been home this summer.

Your asking me what I would have done in the same situation and I told you that the first thing I would have done would be to refund any commission I had kept for myself. I say that but the fact of the matter is this; if I were a booking agent I would not have booked that hunt for them with Heathington from the get go so its pretty much a mute point. Seventy grand for what they booked is a joke! If Blair thought that was a fair deal he shouldnt be booking hunts anyway. Basically Howard, if I were in Blairs shoes I would have worked WITH the clients. I would not have kept the commission and told them that I had fulfilled my end of the bargain and that they should have bought trip insurance. All of this being said, you have to remember that I AM NOT A BOOKING AGENT

As for your last question about whether Blair fulfillod his commitment to his contract. I have not seen the actual contract that he sends out so I cannot comment on that particularly. That being said, I went to his website and pulled this from it...

Our agency will assist you with all aspects of your trip. From applying for your permits, assisting with travel routes - right down to what to pack. We want you as a client for a lifetime and no detail is left to chance.

Based on the above passage and based on the FACTS that I have turned over to others I would have to say NO, Blair did NOT fulfill his obligation to his clients.

Anything else Howard?

I clearly said without all the facts, then you try to twist my words to be "you are making quite an assumption saying that I dont have any "facts". Of course all these "facts" are top secret and can't be shared but of course they all prove your contention. Sorry not buying it.

As far as the specific outfitter and cost.........you seem to be conveniently forgetting that the clients were presented, by BWW, with a choice of outfitters to use and choose Heathington. The price can hardly be disputed if choices of outfitters are given and the price was quoted upfront. Also information presented to us here on this thread indicated that BWW did expend time and effort on their clients behalf to help them recoup their money.

Once again it seems your only legitimate dispute with BWW is their failure to refund their commission. I do agree with that and if I was the client I would have made every effort to convince BWW of the need to do so. Heck I would have expected them to refund their commission AND book me another hunt while waiving their commission. That would be IF I was the customer and not another person in the industry doing nothing more then standing on the sideline jumping up and down and saying "look at me, look at me"! Either way this is pointless, I am done.

I am very sorry for the clients who were rooked out of their money. Not sure what as a hunting customer I can do to prevent that from happening to me. However I am giving up on getting any useful information out of this thread. Have a good day.

Wow,

drummondlindsey,

You have the patience of a Saint.

Howard,

Say "Hi" to Jeff for us. Tell him to refund the money and that your ploy didn't work.

Any updates on the legal battle for the victims?

These posts by Howard are about as ridiculous as BWW keeping the commission they didn't earn, LOL!

Howard, as a reader of this thread, you're coming off as either a BWW advocate or a fool.
In either case you've totally discredited yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by lde:
In either case you've totally discredited yourself.

I think it is obvious that he is a supporter of BWW. I find it ironic that he is calling out posters for calling out BWW.

Thought I'd share a note I just sent as a reply to another BWW email soliciation:
Emory


"
Might as well take me off your distribution, even though I had enough interest in the sort of hunts you list to ante up for your $49 discount list deal last year… Based on the AR discussion concerning your treatment of a client, I simply will not take a chance on booking any hunt through Blair no matter how attractive the hunt or good the price might appear.

I’m not as experienced as many, but also am not exactly a tire kicker. Over quite a few years I’ve made nine hunting trips to Alaska, one to Sonora, have hunted big game in five western states (six if you count Texas but I don’t) and have signed up for my sixth trip to Africa for next year. I certainly expect to continue the pattern for a few more years.

Like many who have had successful enjoyable hunts, I find I increasingly influence others considering what, where, when - and who to consider as an agent. I just had the second such conversation this week – believe me, BWW was not one of those I suggested they check with… "

quote:

Originally posted by Emory:
Thought I'd share a note I just sent as a reply to another BWW email soliciation:
Emory


"
Might as well take me off your distribution, even though I had enough interest in the sort of hunts you list to ante up for your $49 discount list deal last year… Based on the AR discussion concerning your treatment of a client, I simply will not take a chance on booking any hunt through Blair no matter how attractive the hunt or good the price might appear.

I’m not as experienced as many, but also am not exactly a tire kicker. Over quite a few years I’ve made nine hunting trips to Alaska, one to Sonora, have hunted big game in five western states (six if you count Texas but I don’t) and have signed up for my sixth trip to Africa for next year. I certainly expect to continue the pattern for a few more years.

Like many who have had successful enjoyable hunts, I find I increasingly influence others considering what, where, when - and who to consider as an agent. I just had the second such conversation this week – believe me, BWW was not one of those I suggested they check with… "

Good for you Emory. I hope the scumbag folds. I will NEVER let this thread die. Saeed will have to ban me.

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
2. People always embellish the facts to fit their "side" and leave out facts that don't benefit themselves.
3. There is always at least three sides to every story.

Howard is especially correct in these two points...

The three sides to EVERY story are Side "A", Side "B" and the "truth" that lies somewhere between.

If I had paid a substantial amount of money for anything (and to me 70K is a LOT of money) I would have had this ALL in writing with some kind of contingency plan for the unexpected. Life happens, and things sometimes go awry even with incredibly honest people; sickness, injury, DEATH?

Heck, there is more contractual paperwork involved in buying a $20,000 car than seems to have occured here. Something sure ain't right...