This is all the more reason Blair should refund his commission; he sold what was deemed a fraud by the legal system.

Did the courts in fact find him to be a fraud or did the clients win because Heathington never showed up for the trial?

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Did the courts in fact find him to be a fraud or did the clients win because Heathington never showed up for the trial?

Good point Larry, but if he didn't show up for the trial, he likely didn't show up for the hunt.

In any event, Blair should have refunded his commission.

Why would anyone book with Blair when there are so many other booking agents who would not screw you like this? And with such arrogance I might add.

Blair, we will keep this topic in the forefront until you are out of business.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Did the courts in fact find him to be a fraud or did the clients win because Heathington never showed up for the trial?

Oh my, are we picking a nit or what??

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
This is all the more reason Blair should refund his commission; he sold what was deemed a fraud by the legal system.

Even worse is that he KNEW Heathington was a crook and still sold the hunt......THAT is inexcusable.

quote:

Did the courts in fact find him to be a fraud or did the clients win because Heathington never showed up for the trial?

It is my understanding they got a default judgement.

Actually Wasbeeman, this is not nitpicking at all. There are light years between a default judgement and being convicted of fraud.

I am not in BWW"s camp at all. Just trying to find out what really happened .

Oh, does that mean he is only a little bit of a fraud??? IMO you're trying to define "is".

No. A default judgment means you lose because you didn't mount a defense. It is not even in the same universe of being convicted of fraud.

Once again, I think BWW has serious issues. I am simply trying to find out what really happened. If they were in fact convicted of fraud that is far more serious than a default judgment.

BWW wasn't convicted of anything, Larry Heathington was.

I'm not a lawyer, but I suspect Heathington was not charged with fraud and that the default judgment came in a civil court where the victim sought money for damages.

If Heathington had been charged with the crime of fraud, wouldn't there be a warrant issued for his arrest for failure to appear?

Bill Quimby

Bill, in WA State prepayment for services to be delivered is legally considered an unsecured loan and failure to deliver the services is a default on the loan. I reckon all states are substantially the same.

I suspect for it to be fraud you would have to prove there was never intention to deliver the product sold.

Either way if Heathington has no assets to attach the money is gone. That really is all the matters at this point.

Is Blair still in business?

He is on the exhibitor list for the SCI convention in Feb. I wonder how many hunters will stop by his booth to book a hunt. I will check it out when I am there.

OOOOOH! That could be interesting!

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
Bill, in WA State prepayment for services to be delivered is legally considered an unsecured loan and failure to deliver the services is a default on the loan. I reckon all states are substantially the same.

I suspect for it to be fraud you would have to prove there was never intention to deliver the product sold.

Either way if Heathington has no assets to attach the money is gone. That really is all the matters at this point.

Howard:'

That was my point. Although some here already have convicted Heathington of a crime, to my knowledge he has not yet been formally charged with a single criminal act. It makes me wonder why not.

Judging only by what I've read here, there seems to be enough evidence out there to indict him of several crimes -- but then I was only a reporter in a much earlier life, and never a lawyer.

Bill Quimby

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:

Howard:'
Judging only by what I've read here, there seems to be enough evidence out there to indict him of several crimes -
Bill Quimby

It's a good thing for us all that internet evidence isn't evidence out in the real world.

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:

Howard:'
Judging only by what I've read here, there seems to be enough evidence out there to indict him of several crimes -
Bill Quimby

It's a good thing for us all that internet evidence isn't evidence out in the real world.

I'm just glad that Jeff Blair and Larry Heathington came on here and made their statements. There is plenty there to be able to form an educated opinion about their integrity and business practices. In the "court of public opinion" it looks bleak for those two.

Anyway, hated to see this thread buried on the second page.

This really needs to be on page 1 with the other agent's lack of service thread on the Africa hunting forum

Doing my duty for God and country and bringin' it to the top.

Howard, one serious question: Are you a paid shill for Blair or are you so destitute socially that you stir up shit like this so's people will talk to you?

Anyone else get an email from Blair with "Christmas gift ideas"? Wonder if they pulled the email list from DSC?

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
Anyone else get an email from Blair with "Christmas gift ideas"? Wonder if they pulled the email list from DSC?

Here is my idea for a Christmas present:

Let's make sure this stays on the very top on Christmas Day.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
Anyone else get an email from Blair with "Christmas gift ideas"? Wonder if they pulled the email list from DSC?

Yep, I got it today!

BWW periodically calls my cell phone hawking their hunts. I have no idea how they got my cell #, and have asked them to stop contacting me every time they call. The last time I got pissed, used some language I probably shouldn't have, and told them to have some dignity, and quit trying to market their hunts like a siding salesman! Hope they finally got the message.........

I got a postcard in the mail today from BWW!!! Glad to know they spent some money on me and absolutely no f'in way they'll ever recover it!!!

If you want them to stop contacting you next time just ask them about this hunt that started this thread. I did and have not received a phone call, email or letter again from them. Plus the fact that they will not answer any questions about this puts them in a very bad light. Guess they should have checked this outfitter out properly before selling his hunt but I guess they were out for the bucks, pun intended.

BTT

Just received an unsolicited email from Blair regarding Sheep and Bear. Responded with a please remove request listing this topic and link as the reason. This was the first, and hopefully the last, time they have used my personal email address. Makes me wonder where they found it.

just got the same thing

Me three...I would like to know where they got my email address.

Having read this entire thread its our duty to make sure the dirtbags dont pull this crap on anyone else. A fried and I were looking into booking a hunt and am so happy I saw this. My buddy had gotten a couple cold calls from Blair and this just saved us a ton. Thanks guys!!!

I have never contacted blair looking for a hunt, and find it strange that i got an email from them earlier in the week trying to sell me a hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Ongwe:
Me three...I would like to know where they got my email address.

My best guess is they buy them from SCI or hunting magazines you subscribe to.

quote:

My best guess is they buy them from SCI or hunting magazines you subscribe to.

SCI had a policy against selling its membership list when I still was there, and I doubt that it has changed. There are various businesses and agencies that do sell their contact lists, though, including our state's game department.

Bill Quimby

quote:

I have never contacted blair looking for a hunt, and find it strange that i got an email from them earlier in the week trying to sell me a hunt.

Yeah, I received a postcard in the mail from them yesterday, and an email from them today.....I have my suspicions of where they get their contact lists, but at least they have stopped calling me (it only took 2 times to get my point across!).

Just received a call from a Blair's salesperson wanting to know if they could help me with my hunting trips.

I asked about the reports concerning a Mexico sheep hunt and was referred here to get the true story and Mr. Blair's rebuttal.

Interesting, to say the least.

How are they getting emails and phone numbers?

Some states sell mailing lists taken from hunter applications. Maybe someone can shed some light on how that works.

I am kinda hoping they call me. Blair won't take my calls anymore...

There are numerous companies that specialize in assisting business in targeted marketing. Mailing list, demographics etc are all available for a price.

Ultimately isn't that what a booking agent does? Markets the guide/outfitter to his targeted audience?

Far as the states lists go. Virtually everything the government does is a matter of public record and is available through the freedom of information act.

Also many states now seem to be using third party vendors for selling and processing their licensees and tags and those vendors probably sell their lists.