[/QUOTE]

The problem i would have with telling the other side what you have said is that they would say something rather similar.
It appears that stereo types on both sides prevent 'a working together'.

[/QUOTE]


Herin lies the entirety of the issue, our "side" is not looking to take something from your "side".

Thats why negotiating with the anti crowd is impossible. I still stand by my statement in like the fourth or fith post of this thread, we defeat your side in total or you defeat us, there is no middle ground.

Steve

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Holy cow Jo, you sure are windy I'll do my best here, but I only have about 45 minutes to reply.

Not sure what your definition of windy is but i can assure you as a 'lady' i don't pass wind (fart).

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Human encroachment/human-lion conflict is the BIGGEST most prolific problem facing the lion.

Completely agree.

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Does unethical/illegal lion hunting take place, possibly, but although I rail against that more than you could ever imagine, its frankly a very small part of the problem. Not saying its ok, just trying to tackle the biggest, most pressing issue at the moment.

I think definately not probably. As you point out most of the hunting sites i quoted earlier were in South Africa, but they do as far as i am concerned conduct unethical (at least) hunts. Bringing animals in to be hunted etc. The anti - hunting community and those on the fence are not concerned where these activities take place, only that they do.
Part of the problem the anti hunting community has with hunting stems from reports of these kind of operations. We all know the bad gets reported on far more than anything good and thats an all round occurence not just related to hunting. The reputation of the hunter has been damaged by reports of canned hunting, bringing animals in, last lions shot, under age lions shot etc etc. Whether these reports are true or not becomes irrelevant (unfortunately) when it comes to the publics perception of hunters.

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Look at the Kigosi Game Reserve in western Tanzania. First, Game Reserves are by law, legal hunting/wildlife areas, where human habitation, domestic livestock, and anyone who's not suppose to be there in general, is to be strictly forbidden by law, period! But, because of the ability, or lack there of, by the current hunting operator to sufficiently sell hunts, meaning he's not been in a financial position to properly aid, support and sufficiently conduct/pay for anti-poaching patrols, etc, etc, the reserve over the past several years has been invaded by the locals.

I take everything on board you have said here. Just out of curiosity do you know why he / she has been unable to sell hunts?

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Finally, they just give up, move out, and the area is lost forever, and so is the wildlife. Hunting and lion hunting in these areas is HUGELY important to their continued success.

I also take this on board.

quote:

Know this - now that we have got past the kind words and you want to get to the real issues, I'm gonna be frank, but hopefully not offensive in every response I give you here. Had you ever actually experienced for yourself, exactly what I say above, you would know the truth. I have, many, many times, throughout Tanzania, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Botswana, parts of Mozambique, parts of Namibia, and parts of the CAR too. Nothing you can say, quote from some other document, paper or person, will ever be an exception to real live, on the ground experience. See it for yourself, then tell me I'm wrong?

I agree there is no experience like real experience. I honestly am not trying to tell you anything, im trying to learn, and to do that i need to throw in bits of info and research i have to see your perspective of them.
Are you offering me a 'gratis' trip to your concession to experience, observe and write about? Just kidding!

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Somewhere I may not have been clear about my views on scientists, Dr. Begg in particular.

Thanks for the clarification.

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In short, I've spent hours emailing Dr. Packer and several phone conversations too. He told me point blank, "we", meaning the hunting industry "must change our ways and conform to better lion hunting practices." "If we don't, the lion will be uplisted, and lion hunting and the lion will be the loser in the end." Will he say that to you, or in public, I don't know? But I give you my honest word, that's exactly what he told me over the phone, and I exagerate it not! Point blank, he told me that he DOES NOT want to see the lion up-listed. I truly think he wants to use the pressure/threat of that possibility, to make those operators who are NOT doing a good job, get in line. I sincerely believe that.

having never had contact with Mr Packer myself i can't really make any comment here. I do plan on contacting him though.

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3. How can I be so sure of my facts that lions are NOT declining in the vast majority of qualified, well looked after hunting blocks you ask?? PERSONAL on the ground experience my friend, 16 years worth of it all across east/south Africa, in more lion hunting areas, on more lion hunts than I care to remember. Not to mention, talk to the two Dr. ladies who spend more time in more lion hunting areas/camps/concessions than any other scientists on the planet. If Dr. White tells you that lions are declining throughout Zambia's hunting blocks - Game Management Areas (GMA's), I'll come on AR, Facebook (which I do not do) and everywhere else you want me to, and I will speak out against continued lion hunting throught Zambia! And yes, I do have science to back these claims, she's a DOCTOR, studying the Zambian Lions since 2004, and previous to that, studying lions in Kenya/Tanzania too!!!!!!

I applaud this. Believe me if i judge that hunting is the best conservation means for the lion i will support it. I have said this before elsewhere, I'm sure John Hunt will confirm it.

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4. Yep, you too are entitled to your opinion. Difference is, I'm basing mine on 16 years of in-field experience, how about you? That's the problem with this whole internet/AR/Facebook farce. 99.9% of em still think Africa's a country, most who have been there, have never spent 5 minutes in or amongst truly wild/remote hunting concessions, nor have they 1 ounce of experience with conservation minded hunting operators. If you can find one lion "scientist/expert" who has spent as much time, in as many different countries/regions/locales and most importantly - hunting concessions, observing, learning from and hunting the lions within these areas, as myself, I'm all ears???

I certainly don't have the experience you do, i have been to Africa once, the kruger park and the lion park.
On the other hand i don't gain all my knowledge (or lack of) on face book or the internet either.
Please be clear i do not doubt your knowledge or expertise when it comes to lions, i just want to know as much as i can and whilst that may come across i am doubting you, im really not.

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5. I hope you're wrong as it pertains to the eventual up-listing of the lion, but I too can only speculate on that one.

I just hope that whatever IS best for the lion occurs.

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7. You say the practice of "bringing in lions" goes on, and should not be swept under the rug. Well, show me you're proof of that?? I too have heard that claim before, and I've asked for the proof, but have yet to ever see someone produce any! Put & take lion hunting in SA is not part of this discussion. Show me any proof that some hunting operator in Tanzania/Zambia/Botswana, etc, has ever "brought in" some trophy lion to shoot? I've lion hunted all across Africa, and I've NEVER seen anything of the kind, how about you??

South Africa is part of the discussion for me. You can't take away the 'bad' because it suits your cause. There are operators there offering to bring in animals to be hunted. The general public when debating this issue will not seperate SA from the rest of Africa. If the hunting community is to be cleaned up it needs to be all of the hunting community not just parts.

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8. I do not reject other sound/experience based or scientific info/opinions, not at all. I reject arm-chair, internet/Facebook experts, taking at face value what someone else says, even "scientists", who make claims about areas, places, lion populations, lion ages, etc, etc, in places they've never even been. I respect Dr. Whitman's work in Tanzania as it pertains to the lion, now ask her how much time she's spent in the Omay region of Zimbabwe, studying/observing/looking at, or aging lions? If you or anyone else, honestly thinks that lions all across the continent of Africa have the same genetics, age characteristics, mane development, nose pigmentation, etc, etc, etc, you are sadly mistaken. To be an expert on the southern/eastern African Lion, one must have experience with the lion throughout this ENTIRE range, not just one country/one locale. That in itself is irresponsible science and irresponsible claims based on potentially false info

I've never and will never claim to be an expert. I came here and stated i wanted to learn and that is what i am doing with every response to this thread, others and from browsing these forums.
I definately would not like to try and age a lion, i have learnt here the difficulties in doing so with any degree of accuracy.

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I was not saying you were biased at all. I am saying that the majority of anti-hunters are biased.

I was asking you to get the other side (anti-hunting side) to put money for UNBIASED reasearch.

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DRSS

My apologies.
I think my voice is unlikely to be heard regarding money for unbiased research. But believe me if i had the money i would gladly donate it.

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Herin lies the entirety of the issue, our "side" is not looking to take something from your "side".

Thats why negotiating with the anti crowd is impossible. I still stand by my statement in like the fourth or fith post of this thread, we defeat your side in total or you defeat us, there is no middle ground.

As far as the anti crowd are concerned you are looking to take something from them - the lion.

The anti side would also say negotiating with the hunting side is impossible.

Its a no win situation where that is concerned.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
I reject arm-chair, internet/Facebook experts, taking at face value what someone else says, even "scientists", who make claims about areas, places, lion populations, lion ages, etc, etc, in places they've never even been.

Saved for posterity.
One of the finest, most decisive posts on this forum.

505 gibbs,

Thanks for your contribution.
Care to share your OWN opinions?

quote:

Care to share your OWN opinions?

I did, in the post above. Perhaps I did not opine on the subject you want me to?

Never mind

Please could someone explain to me how quotas work?

And also what exactly is meant by baiting and luring?

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Originally posted by jolouburn:
Please could someone explain to me how quotas work?

And also what exactly is meant by baiting and luring?

Perhaps you should look at Mike70560 post to "Fairgame" and you might get the gestalt of why hunters really do care.

Thread

I respect your coming into the "den of Lions: with your questions but honestly, most of us are a bit skeptical, not unlike a Lion when they get a whiff in the wind that is not right. I'm curious and I will trust you will answer honestly. Is this really an exercise in acquisition of knowledge on a personal basis or are you writing some type of article and need fodder for its content?

Seriously, why are you here asking these questions?

Hi Frostbit,

I can honestly understand that many are sceptical of my motives for being here in the 'lions den' so to speak. I can also understand that of the many who have viewed this thread few will post due to this very reason.

I came here to learn about the other side of the fence so to speak. From a rational, logical point of view there are always two sides to any argument. Before coming here i had only one side and now i am beginning to have two.

From an emotional point of view i don't like and never will like hunting, but far be it from me to judge what it is that hunters gain from a hunting experience. I will plainly just never understand.

Going back to the rational i as those here i have conversed with want what is best for the lion. If that is a ban on hunting them then that is what i will support. If it is a continuation of hunting them then that is what i will support.

Right now i am still leaning towards the banning of hunting the lion and that is purely because there is for me too much malpractice in the hunting industry. Clean this up (not you personally) and i may think differently.

From browsing other threads here i have found reports of (not saying these are factual) last lions killed, illegal hunting, illegal quotas being shot, people not taking reasonable precaution to ensure ethical, legal kills are made.

On the other side of the coin though i have found many people who take the conservation of animals very seriously and take all precautions to ensure mistakes aren't made and yes these are in the majority.

Now to get to the main question you asked. Am i really planning a story and need fodder for it's content? No i'm not, i do not have the knowledge or research to do such a thing. And as i have said in previous posts writing a story was never my reason for being here.

When it comes to my writing i do not touch serious pieces that i do not have the knowledge or research to handle. Something as serious (to me at least) as the survival of the lion would not benefit from a half cocked story i could write. I will leave the writing on lion conservation to those who really know what they are talking about.

I have not hidden anything about me here, i am a part time writer, a full time landlady, an avid speedway (bike not car) fan, a lover of wildlife, a card maker, embroiderer, supporter of lion aid. I am at this moment arranging an auction for the aforementioned cause.

But none of the above makes my reasons for coming here anything but genuine. I honestly am here to learn and have learnt a lot.

Yes i have probably said some silly things, yes i have busted some balls but regarding silly things, im human, and busting balls, in your words if i smell somethings not right i will question it.

Many people on this thread have trusted i am being genuine and i can only say that the proof will be in the pudding when there is no story coming from my laptop.

quote:

From browsing other threads here i have found reports of (not saying these are factual) last lions killed, illegal hunting, illegal quotas being shot, people not taking reasonable precaution to ensure ethical, legal kills are made.

Please help us to understand, could you give us specific examples of all the above statements?

Sure


Last male lion shot in Bumi.
http://forums.accuratereloadin...1002751/m/2471066361

Illegal hunting in Zimbabwe
http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/7981066461

Leopard quotas
http://forums.accuratereloadin...2101325/m/3831012161
http://forums.accuratereloadin...2100588/m/6391006061

As for people not taking reasonable precautions to ensure unethical/ illegal kills don't take place well that is subjective and a personal opinion.

One thing to keep in mind Jo is the forum aspect of this.

Comments and feedback will always slant towards the bad because when people have a bad experience they tend to be highly motivated to share. This is also a mechanism for self regulation within the hunting industry. Most people don't give a lot of weight to one or two bad reports but beyond that it is a pattern. A pattern will impact the outfits ability to book more hunts. We do not want to discourage this activity. If every negative hunt report was used by anti-hunters as a billboard in Times Square then you would soon find those reports dissapear... allowing the bad outfits to continue unreported. Remember thousands of hunts happen each year.

John,

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This is also a mechanism for self regulation within the hunting industry.

Self regulation is good and every 'house' should be responsible for itself. However there are times when things get too out of hand and the regulation needs to be governed by others.
For example a hunting outfitter who offers more than their quota of animals to be hunted. It is all well and good those ethical and legal hunters saying well we just won't use that outfit anymore, but there will always be others who will use it.
The bottom line is people who are legally able to stop these places operating need to be brought in.

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If every negative hunt report was used by anti-hunters as a billboard in Times Square then you would soon find those reports dissapear... allowing the bad outfits to continue unreported.

Then why does the hunting community not report on these things and get the message across that for them this is not acceptable? By trying to deal with it in house it only makes it look shady and underhand. You give ammunition to the anti-hunters by not stepping up and saying this is whats happening but we are trying to deal with it and this is what we are doing.

When i brought up canned hunting and animals being brought in to be shot i was told that doesn't happen up here, just in South Africa. Well that may be so but it IS part of the hunting industry and just because it doesn't go on on your doorstep doesn't mean it should be ignored.

There is reference to illegal hunting in zim and tanzania in a thread here and most people seemed outraged, but some also just seemed dissapointed as they had planned hunting there. People were asking others 'why dont you do something about it?' Well with respect everyone should be acting to do something about it.

You can pull the anti-hunters apart for reporting on 'bad, unethical, illegal' hunting practices but it seems it is the only way the world gets to find out about it because the hunting community appears to squirrel it away.
If the anti-hunting community only manages to make more people aware of the problems and gets some of them dealt with because they have become so public then with respect they will have managed to do more than the hunting community has done 'in house'.

I am 1000's of miles away from Africa and i am outraged at some of the things that go on just like many of you are when it comes to bad practice within the industry.
I honestly don't have the confidence that the hunting community will clean its own house up but what can i do?
I can help raise awareness of the problems within the hunting community by fund raising etc to get the message out there. I have far more confidence at this moment that that will work than in anything else.
With respect you can all sit there and rant about how you are treat by the anti-hunting community and the reports they manage to get out there but i see you doing nothing publicly to defend your corner.
I have listened to some very educated, very knowledgable people here and if they were to get their opinions / knowledge out there then people would have both sides of the story.
Remember when i came here and in my last post i stated i only have one side of the argument. There is noone out there in the hunting community publicly fighting your corner. You therefore cannot blame the public for reacting in the way they do, they are only armed with one side of an argument and few think to or are willing to go and see what the other side has to say.
If you want people to back your cause you need to get your side out there and then let people act upon what they then see fit.

Yep that was a rant!!