Ledvm,

i'd already gathered he was knowledgeable from other posts of his that i have read.

I'm always listening

I'm no expert on fox hunting but i will do my best to answer your questions.

As far as i am aware there was no quota set for foxes. Registered hunts killed between 21,000 and 25,000 foxes a year. This accounts for only 5% of the overall fox mortality in a year. Over half of all foxes killed were cubs.
A recentish study concluded that fox numbers are stable. Interestingly fox hunts continue illegally, the hunting fraternity refused to accept the ban.

This is the first time I've ventured to this subforum, and I have enjoyed reading this thread. I cannot contribute anything specifically regarding African hunting, nor obviously lion hunting in particular. You have gotten some thoughtful and very educated replies from some of our members rooted in real experience. I can only share some of my thoughts based on hunting in general; from where I sit, it seems much of your opposition to lion hunting is founded in opposition to hunting wholesale. Why your specific interest in lions? I commend you for taking the initiative to learn more and better inform your opinions.

Extrapolating from my experiences here in the US, any legal game animal taken ethically by fair chase is a "trophy." I imagine that definition, or a facsimile of, is how many hunters view the term. Depending on the circumstances--the perhaps faraway location, our companions in the field, the sacrifices to get there, the physical demands of the hunt, etc. the intrinsic value of that "trophy" may grow in our eyes and later memory. For a very few, a trophy may be little more than the physical mount on the wall and something as base as a box to be checked off the list. Many of my friends hunt and I don't know any who fall into the second category.

I grew up with the same credos as most all hunters: eat what you kill, don't let any of the animal go to waste, don't take the shot unless you're confident, strive for a clean kill and track any wounded game, leave the woods better than how you found them, don't over hunt the resource, etc, etc, etc. These values were taught to me by my Dad and the older men I hunted with when I was a boy. The killing of any animal is always a sober event and rightly or wrongly, the higher I look up the food chain, the more gravity associated with it. In that sense I can see how lions and ele are lightning rods in the discussion. As a physician I deal with suffering and death fairly often. It causes me to reflect perhaps more than some of my friends on occasion, but I strongly feel that a mature animal taken cleanly and ethically is certainly something to be celebrated and the capstone of the whole hunt. It is this last point about seeking and celebrating the death of an animal at our own hands that many antis seem to have trouble understanding.

I think a lot of that has to do with how far removed from the natural order of life we have become in our tech-filled and urbanized lives. We're not born at home and we don't tend to die at home anymore. We don't slaughter hogs and gut fish and if we grow anything it is liable to be a planter box with some herbs or a few tomatoes. Where I live, unless you're a farmer you're unlikely to keep even chickens for eggs. Next time you go to the market Jo take a look in the butcher section at the cuts of meat and try to assemble them in your head. We have become so insulated by our own advances and design, that those links are breaking. I think that farmer co-ops, CSAs, local food movements, trail running, mountain biking, etc are all repudiations of this. For one, I always seem to give a couple steaks, ducks, etc to friends each season. These are non-hunters and typically good cooks--they always call me back to rave about how good the meat is and how they'd welcome more next season. I've taken 2 of them with me and seen the light bulb go off. Maybe next year they'll carry a rifle or shotgun.

You've credited yourself by talking with us--IMO hunters are the original and sustaining vanguard of the "outdoors" movement and understand what conservation and sustainability really mean. They respect Kipling's Law of the Jungle, the impact of the environment and its tweaks on game populations and fitness. Counter this with the typical anti, and rate objectively how well informed they are on an empirical basis. The typical person I get into a discussion with and who wants tell me what side is up is a person 3 or 4 generations removed from the farm driving a Subaru wagon pasted with Appalachian Trail, Sierra Club, and Save the Bay stickers. They're an expert with a new pair of boots in the closet, a pair of binos and 2 day-hikes a year under their belt and a $50 tax refundable donation to one of the Green clubs. I'm certainly no Teddy Roosevelt, but in my area I know what a particularly wet season is going to do to next year's hatch, how the mast crop is shaping up, that those 5-6 year old saplings are going to start holding grouse in about 3-4 years and if I keep pounding on the ducks in one spot I won't see them back. I make it a point to donate to Ducks Unlimited, Ruffed Grouse Society, and Trout Unlimited every year in addition to revenues from my licenses and duck stamps feeding right back into game fields.

In closing, I'd encourage you to dig even deeper. You're at least questioning your beliefs and how you arrived there, which is great no matter the subject. I feel you've got a typical head-in-the-sand mindset about the killing/death part, which is understandable, but in reality such a tiny fraction of what comprises hunting. Keep fact checking the lion stuff, but go tag along on a couple hunts nearby. Spend some time outdoors and get some blood on your boots--see if the light bulbs go off for you!

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
I'm no expert on fox hunting but i will do my best to answer your questions.

As far as i am aware there was no quota set for foxes. Registered hunts killed between 21,000 and 25,000 foxes a year. This accounts for only 5% of the overall fox mortality in a year. Over half of all foxes killed were cubs.
A recentish study concluded that fox numbers are stable. Interestingly fox hunts continue illegally, the hunting fraternity refused to accept the ban.

Thanks for that. The ban was due to foxes being endangered? or was it more emotive and hunting was deemed barbaric? Word is that Labour implemented the ban to win a few votes?

What I am interested in is a parallel from a first world country, from your small island. And what exactly did you contribute to the conservation of foxes or indeed conservation of any of your wild species? Did it exceed a fiver? Do you have a receipt?

What research? Bollocks I have yet to come across a landowner or gamekeeper who has participated in the so called research you mention. You and I know that foxes are common almost to the point that they be classified as vermin, ask my granny. Today they are being culled (shot, trapped, poisoned?) and you as a tax payer are now paying for that to happen.

Would you not call that a ridiculous state of affairs?

Another thing if you are going to reply to my statements then please do it in full.

I asked who really was responsible for the upgrading of Leopard and why? There is no documented research because it was never done. The classification was little more than a whim, little more than an emotive response. Bit like your foxes really.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:


I asked who really was responsible for the upgrading of Leopard and why?

USF&W...just because they felt like it...against some expert opinion (Philippe Chardonette)...much like what they "could do" with the lion.

quote:

I asked who really was responsible for the upgrading of Leopard and why? There is no documented research because it was never done. The classification was little more than a whim, little more than an emotive response. Bit like your foxes really.

My apologies i thought you were referring to the upgrading of the lion. I have no idea about the leopard.

quote:

Thanks for that. The ban was due to foxes being endangered? or was it more emotive and hunting was deemed barbaric? Word is that Labour implemented the ban to win a few votes?

As i understand it the fox ban was imposed due to the fox being endangered. However i don't believe this to be true. I have grown up regularly seeing foxes in the back garden, the woods and we even see them in our beer garden now.
I think as you say it was more an emotional response and yes deemed by some as barbaric. The thought (for many) of a fox being chased by people on horses and dogs for a while, and then being ripped apart by those dogs is too much. It is for me from an emotional point of view if i'm honest.
As for it being labour trying to get a few votes, it wouldn't surprise me, all political parties wherever you go are the same. I don't vote and i don't get involved in politics.

quote:

What I am interested in is a parallel from a first world country, from your small island. And what exactly did you contribute to the conservation of foxes or indeed conservation of any of your wild species? Did it exceed a fiver? Do you have a receipt?

From my small island i can see and always could see the fox was not an endangered species and that by putting the ban in place you were looking at all kinds of trouble. And believe me we have it! Whilst claims are made that the fox is stable in numbers the farmers now have more foxes to deal with trying to get to their livestock, more foxesare appearing in urban areas causing havoc with bins etc and illegal hunting is going on anyway. More people take part in hunts too, the brits love doing anything they are not supposed to.
I did nothing to conserve the fox, i didn't feel it needed interfering with. I don't do anything to directly conserve any of the other wildlife either, it tends to be pretty well looked after. I do however visit national trust sites and usually spend a fortune whilst there which all goes back into the system per se. I put bird seed in the garden and plant stuff which attracts wildlife.

quote:

What research? Bollocks I have yet to come across a landowner or gamekeeper who has participated in the so called research you mention. You and I know that foxes are common almost to the point that they be classified as vermin, ask my granny. Today they are being culled (shot, trapped, poisoned?) and you as a tax payer are now paying for that to happen.

Would you not call that a ridiculous state of affairs?

Think i've pretty much covered this. The research i cannot prove was or was not carried out and yes most refer to foxes as vermin. I kinda like them myself but im not plagued by them. I agree its ridiculous, i know the benefits of hunting certain species and the outcome of not doing so.
All in all would i back a bid to bring fox hunting back? Yes. However i would not back the method of killing - dogs.

On a slightly different note but not entirely i do feel that Africa has far bigger wildlife problems than we have. We would all agree poaching, human encroachment, disease etc is very damaging to the wildlife of Africa.

I have been to South Africa albeit only to Joberg, the lion park and kruger national park. We talked to lots of people whilst there about the wildlife and problems faced and want to do what we can to help. From where we sit in the UK though it is very difficult to know how to help best.

Dogs - those barbarians...where is their etiquette in fox killing...didn't their eons of registered breeding by proper English gentlemen and Royalty teach them better?

Dogs...off with their heads...for in humane fox killing!!!

Jo,
How would your dog deal with a fox?

quote:

Why your specific interest in lions?

Whilst there are many animals struggling for survival i personally do not have the resources, money or time to dedicate to them all. It is my opinion that out of those struggling the lion is the least represented if that makes sense. The media campaign on tigers, rhinos etc etc are huge, the lion not so much.

quote:

In closing, I'd encourage you to dig even deeper. You're at least questioning your beliefs and how you arrived there, which is great no matter the subject. I feel you've got a typical head-in-the-sand mindset about the killing/death part, which is understandable, but in reality such a tiny fraction of what comprises hunting. Keep fact checking the lion stuff, but go tag along on a couple hunts nearby. Spend some time outdoors and get some blood on your boots--see if the light bulbs go off for you!

I know what you're saying and there is a part of me that would like to go on a hunt (spectator only) in Africa and see what the crack really is. Will i ever do it? Probably not as one i couldnt afford to and two id prefer to spend my hard earned cash seeing wildlife in the national parks and supporting projects such as the lion park and the kingdom of the white lion. Honestly our next hol to Africa will probably be on a volunteer project.

quote:

Dogs - those barbarians...where is their etiquette in fox killing...didn't their eons of registered breeding by proper English gentlemen and Royalty teach them better?

Dogs...off with their heads...for in humane fox killing!!!

Jo,
How would your dog deal with a fox?

I know, i know it is natural behaviour for those dogs. I'm not berating the dogs in any way.
I would just prefer the hunt to not be so barbaric, its just personal preference and opinion.
My dog? My big brave 6 month old chocolate labrador, he'd run away. Give him a year or so and that might be different!
He did stalk a crow the other day in the park. It was great to watch admittedly. He got down on his haunches and slid across the grass towards it. He lunged too soon though and the bird flew away. How i would have felt had he got it i don't know.

Ms jolo,

Judging from the 11 pages, I commend you on your commentment to the lion!

But...Have you personnally ever seen lions in the wild?

Raysendero,

I saw pride females in the Kruger Park on our last day there.

Here are some pics i took :-

http://i1206.photobucket.com/a.../aljouk/SAM_1996.jpg

http://i1206.photobucket.com/a.../aljouk/SAM_1993.jpg

http://i1206.photobucket.com/a.../aljouk/SAM_1990.jpg

quote:

I have been to South Africa albeit only to Joberg, the lion park and kruger national park. We talked to lots of people whilst there about the wildlife and problems faced and want to do what we can to help. From where we sit in the UK though it is very difficult to know how to help best.

Exactly. Why do you not contact Paula white directly and offer to help out with some much needed funds to accelerate her Lion research. She can provide you with the unbiased and profession answers you seek.

Fairgame,

I would gladly donate money to research if i had the money to do it, unfortunately i don't.

So instead i choose to fight my battle for wildlife carefully. I have come here seeking the 'other side' and from there hopefully i can do something however little to help the lion.

I hear LionAid is raising money. Maybe encourage them to support some research along with the there political agenda.

They certainly are John and i have made no secret of the fact i am arranging some fund raising for them.

Do you know they don't already fund research?