quote:

Tourist hunting in Tanzania has developed over a long period and is a principle source
of income for vast areas of the country. The industry has demonstrated an impressive
growth in recent years and is an important source of foreign exchange to Tanzania but
little information is available on the industry. The Wildlife Division of the Ministry of
Natural Resources and Tourism has developed a command system of control that
favours a select group of hunting outfitters with reduced income generation and the
exclusion of rural communities who are the legitimate holders of the land upon which
hunting takes places. Concessions are leased at fixed rates far below the market value,
1
and many to companies without the necessary marketing capacity. A system of
subleasing mostly to foreigners has thus developed. Low rates are achieved and much of
the hunting income that is generated never enters Tanzania and cannot be taxed.

http://www.wildlife-programme....load/hunting_wma.pdf

So does hunting always benefit the community? Makes some hunting outfitters look a little corrupt doesn't it? Therefore in turn are all hunting outfitters really concerned with conservation?

Of course not. It is a large industry with a lot of players that have diverse motivations. Some would sell the last unicorn if they could, most others wouldn't.

The important point is that in general sport trophy hunting by its very nature helps wildlife (from a conservation perspective the local community is only relevant in terms of keeping them from doing things that hurt the situation).

Hunters taking 4 or 5% of a species is a small price to pay to allow 95% a place to live.
Generally speaking the alternative is 0% as the wildlife first gets poached into the bushmeat trade then the cattle come in for the forage.

Many of the old hunting blocks in Kenya are now villages and ranches. Maybe that cannot be reversed but it could have been prevented. Land use policies drift towards highest and best use (what makes the most money). With hunting out of the picture the next best thing stepped up.

You reopen hunting in Kenya and it will probably be much like it is in SA.

quote:

The important point is that in general sport trophy hunting by its very nature helps wildlife (from a conservation perspective the local community is only relevant in terms of keeping them from doing things that hurt the situation).

I beg to differ here. I'm sure the claim has been made that money from hunting goes back into the community and into the conservation of the wildlife in that community. The piece i quoted disputes that notion i'd say.

quote:

Hunters taking 4 or 5% of a species is a small price to pay to allow 95% a place to live.
Generally speaking the alternative is 0% as the wildlife first gets poached into the bushmeat trade then the cattle come in for the forage.

Whilst the first sentence sounds good its all a matter of numbers isn't it. How many lions do hunting concessions house? I've done some research on hunting concessions today and it rather makes this reason to allow hunting of lions look pretty thin. I'll come back to this in my next post.

quote:

Many of the old hunting blocks in Kenya are now villages and ranches. Maybe that cannot be reversed but it could have been prevented. Land use policies drift towards highest and best use (what makes the most money). With hunting out of the picture the next best thing stepped up.

You reopen hunting in Kenya and it will probably be much like it is in SA.

Unfortunately i am struggling to find figures to compare regarding this. Whilst i have found articles which state the wildlife in Kenya is on the decline i cannot find anything to compare with in Africa. Maybe you can point me in the direction of some research, but until i can compare figures of the amount of lions in Kenya to the amount of lions in other African countries i cannot conclude the hunting of the lion is beneficial.

Just a thought but since the lion is in decline, we do not disagree on this fact i am sure? Perhaps hunting concessions could put a temporary ban on the hunting of lions by themselves! Surely 100% living safely in a hunting concession is better than 95%? The population could be allowed to grow naturally and then hunting lion could be relooked at. If hunting concessions and hunters truely care about the conservation of the lion surely this is something they should consider?

I looked at some hunting outfitter sites today - safari njema, beestport, ozondjahe, wormald, hunting legends, balla balla, spiral horn and kudu land. They were just the first to pop up on google.
Would it surprise you to know that only 3 of those list lions as a norm and one of those you can only hunt male lions which would lead me to believe males are brought in on request?
Would it surprise you to know that 3 of them do not list lion at all?
Then there is one where any of the big 5 are available on request.

So all in all 5 out of 8 do not have lion as the norm, hunting outfits it seems do not need lion on their books to survive!

Those who 'bring' lion in, where do they get them from? The hunting of these lions 'brought' in for hunters certainly does nothing for conservation now does it?

Why is it that Hunting legends has a special on lions which states 'lion special $19975, lioness special $5500? Could it be that lion are 'trophy kills' alone and of course everyone wants the one with the magnificent mane? Hunting lion has nothing to do with the meat at all?

If the trophy is not the most important part of the kill, less important than the meat, why does every site i have looked at title their price lists as 'trophy prices'?

No takers?

I am not knowledgeable enough on the money end to take on your question. Aaron Neilson is and maybe if he gets time...he will chime in. Be patient...as he is tied up with his business right now...but...eventually he will answer your question with real figures.

Cool, thanks

I’m going to jump in on this. First off I have to say that I have never hunted lions, and the only time I have been to Africa (Mombasa, Kenya) was 30 years ago when I was in the Navy. Now that being said, I am seeing a trend that I have seen many times before. Ms. Jolouburn you come on here asking a lot of questions and give the appearance of a simple seeker of truth. Too be honest I have learned a lot from the discussion until recently. But true to form the discussion is now taking a turn, armed with dangerously little knowledge you are now getting froggy, as seen by your thinly veiled taunts such as “No takers ?” and from the last lion shot in bumi thread “Oh dear, turns out it wasn't only the last lion but it was only 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 years old too !!” Next will come the frontal assaults using quotes gleaned (and/or taken out of context) from posters that were trying to have an honest discussion. This will then lead to arguing in righteous indignation and nobody benefits. I have seen this played out many times and in many places especially concerning hunting and religion (I am an avid hunter and I used to be a Missionary).
Now I implore you, do not take this discussion there, it’s entirely up to you. You have been treated quite fairly here especially by JohnHunt and ledvm and no one is trying to convince you to take up lion hunting (or hunting at all) but they are explaining why they do it and why it is a sound ecological/practical practice. If you have come to the conclusion that you do not agree please bow out respectfully. If on the other hand you have not made up your mind please continue respectfully. But respect above all else will help to bring understanding. Taunts and arguments will only bring a hardened resolve for ones previously held views.

guns68,

I say all this with the upmost respect.

Firstly you have no idea what knowledge i have or don't have. Secondly don't assume when i said 'no takers' it was a taunt as you know what assuming does! I actually meant it in the context if nobody felt able to answer or wanted to answer i would move on to another area of conversation.
When i said 'oh dear etc etc' in the other thread i meant just that, oh dear. I'm not sure how you think i meant it but again assuming is just wrong.
Please don't be as presumptious as to decide what i will or will not do or say next, thats plain rude and judgemental.
I have not yet made up my mind, that is why i am still putting research out there and asking questions. Believe me my research is never shoddy, as a writer i cannot afford for it to be.
It may be now that as we get to the nitty gritty of research on both sides of the coin it becomes a little too close to the bone for everyone, after all hunters feel strongly about their right to hunt just as anti hunters feel strongly about taking that right away.
If the convo is now uncomfortable for you then please feel free not to participate but please do not try to take away my right to ask the more uncomfy questions and present the less palatable to some research.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Just a thought but since the lion is in decline, we do not disagree on this fact i am sure? Perhaps hunting concessions could put a temporary ban on the hunting of lions by themselves! Surely 100% living safely in a hunting concession is better than 95%? The population could be allowed to grow naturally and then hunting lion could be relooked at. If hunting concessions and hunters truely care about the conservation of the lion surely this is something they should consider?

I looked at some hunting outfitter sites today - safari njema, beestport, ozondjahe, wormald, hunting legends, balla balla, spiral horn and kudu land. They were just the first to pop up on google.
Would it surprise you to know that only 3 of those list lions as a norm and one of those you can only hunt male lions which would lead me to believe males are brought in on request?
Would it surprise you to know that 3 of them do not list lion at all?
Then there is one where any of the big 5 are available on request.

So all in all 5 out of 8 do not have lion as the norm, hunting outfits it seems do not need lion on their books to survive!

Those who 'bring' lion in, where do they get them from? The hunting of these lions 'brought' in for hunters certainly does nothing for conservation now does it?

Why is it that Hunting legends has a special on lions which states 'lion special $19975, lioness special $5500? Could it be that lion are 'trophy kills' alone and of course everyone wants the one with the magnificent mane? Hunting lion has nothing to do with the meat at all?

If the trophy is not the most important part of the kill, less important than the meat, why does every site i have looked at title their price lists as 'trophy prices'?

Jolouburn - I'm right in the middle of my hunting season as a full-time guide, so I have little time until the year's end, but I'll try to jump in here quickly!

I want to be frank, but not offensive, so please don't take it that way, ok? Honestly, I sincerely appreciate your apparent willingness to listen and consider the other side. That's a whole lot more than most will even consider, so for that alone you deserve some respect.

Here's the real problem this presents, but again, no way around it at the moment. Your knowledge base is so elementary, that explanation of some of the issues is so complicated to present, that its almost useless. Especially if you are NOT willing to take it for fact. Truth is, I have little time for explanation, if you don't plan to listen. So, I'll give it to you, and you take it as you will, but I assure you, I am speaking only factual truth.

1. Is the lion in decline? If you say yes, give some scientific/factual proof, not rhetoric published by the likes of Derek & Beverly Joubert. Not Craig Packer, not Dr. Colleen Begg, not Dr. White, not Panthera, etc, etc, etc, can give any true/honest previous or current factual data as to the lion's current/past populations, simply a fact. It doesn't exist, because it can't be done! PLEASE REMEMBER THIS POINT - Scientists across the board, MUST create a never-ending problem, with an unqualified answer/solution, or else what would be there perpetual need? If there's not a perceived problem ALL THE TIME, then no one would be donating money, providing them funding, and helping them with their never-ending, and much "needed" studies. Just stop for a moment, and think about it. Often the answer is alot closer/easier than it appears. Without a "PROBLEM", who needs a scientist, and who needs to give them money?

Now I can tell you for a fact, that lions are NOT declining in protected hunting concessions across most of Africa. If you or anyone disputes that, show me the scientific data to support it, the scientists that conducted said study, the hunting concessions in which the study was conducted, etc? You can't, cause its never happened! The closest any scientist has ever come to studying lions in live hunting concessions, with actual hunting taking place, with Professional Outfitters, is Dr. Paula White - Zambian Lion Project. And guess what, she's the most pro-lion hunting scientist I've ever met, period! Why, because she alone has more personal experience as a scientist, studying the lion, and seeing first-hand the effects/benefits of legal/ethical sport hunting of the lion, than any other scientist in the whole of Africa, bar none! Well, to be fair I need to consider Dr. Colleen Begg's experience as well. She operates the Niassa Carnivore Project, and has done so since 2004. Six months ago she told me specifically, and I quote, "Lion Hunting is NO LONGER a detriment to the wild lion population throughout the Niassa Reserve". Start listening to the scientists who study the lion in and amongst hunting areas, and the hunting community. Funny isn't it, that the only two so are women, and both of them are Pro-Lion Hunting, Hmmm????

2. A temporary closure on Lion Hunting, really? First off, remember the old saying, "give an inch and they will take a mile." Give it up, and it will never come back, and neither will the lion for that matter.

Lets just take one hunting concession in Zambia for example. Pro-Hunt Zambia's, Lunga Luswishi Game Management Area in western Zambia's, Kafue region. This one area gets only 3 lions on quota per year, shares a common border with the Kafue National Park, and is roughly 4,000 square miles (2.56 million acres). That's roughly 850,000 acres per lion hunted, which by the way, the world's perceived "Lion Expert", Dr. Craig Packer, recommends 1 lion on quota per 500,000km2, so obviously well within that limit!!!

Second, Pro-Hunt is solely responsible for the anti-hunting efforts throughout the concession. Even though Zambian Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) is suppose to be responsible, they simply are TOTALLY & COMPLETELY broke, thus they have ZERO money to fund one ounce of anti-poaching efforts throughout the whole of Zambia. This leaves Pro-Hunt Zambia, to be 100% responsible for all anti-poaching activities, period. This to include, providing almost ALL of the transportation into and out of the hunting block, for the ZAWA game scouts (game wardens). They provide all fuel for the vehicles, they provide ALL camping/survival gear needed by the scouts, they provide food for the scouts, and lastly they provide the transportation needed, to return the poachers back to town (justice). In other words, they provide everything, period! Not to even mention, the money provided to the local economy via village employment, etc. Now, with that said lets look at the financial implication of temporarily or permanently closing lion hunting in this particular area. Currently, Pro-Hunt derives roughly 40%-50% of their annual income from the 3 lions available on quota each year, period! So, if this income is removed, Pro-Hunt is out of business, PERIOD! If that happens, who do you propose will step in to support ZAWA and all the anti-poaching activities that are solely supported both financially/logistically by money derived from lion hunting. No company can withstand a 50% loss of income, and this very example is EXACTLY what would repeat itself all across Zambia, Tanzania, parts of Zimbabwe, and Mozambique too.

These areas are not SA, they have extremely limited quotas in many circumstances and without sustained lion hunting, they would all perish, and shortly, so would ALL of the game, and I do mean all of it. But hey, don't take my word for it. I'll happily provide you Dr. Paula White's personal email address, and you can ask her if she agrees with me or not. She's a non-hunting, lion loving, California raised/educated liberal, who happens to know hunting and lion hunting, are the lion's only true hope for continued success across the African continent. The reason we all fight so hard for continued lion hunting, is because we CARE more than anyone else, and we KNOW what will happen if its gone. Tell me, have you ever seen what a commercial poaching operation can do to an area, when allowed to operate without lawful control? I have, and if that happens, its all over for the African Wildlife.

3. Half of the "outfitters" you list above, I've never heard of, and I've heard of most of them. Secondly, it appears most are SA outfitters? Comparing SA with the rest of Africa is like comparing Antarctica with the North Pole - the only thing they have in common is its COLD, nothing more! Again, and no offense, but because your knowledge base is so elementary, explaining all the differences, would take me 6 hrs.

Please, DO NOT insinuate or speculate on things, without knowing for sure, that's just totally irresponsible when arguing for or against any point! As in, "it leads me to believe". Well, leads can be mis-leading, especially when you really don't know what its referring to in the first place. SA canned lion hunting has nothing to do with ALL the wild lion hunts north of the border, and frankly its not lion hunting, its simply lion killing, nothing more. So please, lets leave these outfits out of the loop. They have nothing to do with lion conservation, or the plight of the wild lion!

I know of no one who hunts in WILD/Free Ranging hunting concessions that as you say it, "bring in lions"! That's totally and 100% against the law! Again, you are referring to SA, not Africa as a whole, and certainly not wild Africa, there's a huge difference.

Again, your question about "Hunting Legends" and their Lion Speicals, are referring to SA lions, NOT wild lion hunts throughout wild/free ranging Africa. They have nothing in common, and as you mention, the "hunter" is simply buying a kill, not hunting a wild lion!

4. Trophy prices/trophy fee, call it what you will. It has to have some "name", so if it were animal prices or animal fees, would it mean anything different? Nope!!

5. Jolouburn, the facts are simple and to those in the know, and to those that except the facts without some alternate agenda, will agree. HUNTING is the biggest/most needed tool for the survival and longevity of the African Lion. Without it, hunting concessions and huge tracts of land all across southern/eastern Africa could not financially support themselves. Without that support, poaching, human encroachment and all things bad, will continue to invade these wild/pristine areas. Poaching runs rampant, first the game disappears, and without the game to eat, the lion does too! There is no exception to thus rule, period! You can believe it, you can support it, or not? Its really up to you, but it is simply the facts, and they are undisputed.

Jolouburn, I don't claim to know everything about the lion, the protection provided them via the hunting industry, etc. But I can tell you this for sure. I know of only 1 other person in the world that has spent more time, in more places/countries, hunting, observing, learning about and adoring the African lion, than myself. Take what I say for fact or rhetoric, its you call.

Thank you Aaron,

I'll go away and read and digest and come back

Oh and i'm not offended in the slightest but i think you under estimate my intelligence and ability to take things on board

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Thank you Aaron,

I'll go away and read and digest and come back

Oh and i'm not offended in the slightest but i think you under estimate my intelligence and ability to take things on board

No, I don't under estimate your intelligence at all. Just by showing an open mind proves your intelligence. Fact is though, the knowledge/experience needed to really understand it all, takes years to garner. Perfectly illustrated by your examples listed of outfitters/lion trophies/brought in lions, etc.

You can talk about this all you want, but nothing replaces actual, real-live, "EXPERIENCE".

Mrs. Jolouburn,

I know Aaron very well and I know Bwanamich as well. I will tell you this: They both (as do I) care deeply about the lion, it's longevity, and they longevity of wild Africa. They (Aaron and Mich) are extremely knowledgeable. They also are both straight up people and speak only the truth to the best that they know it. IE: they are good sources of information on the lion...the most knowledgeable people I know.

I also know Craig Packer, Karyl Whitman, Paula White, Colleen Begg and some of the others...not well...but converse with them regularly. They too are caring people and understand the science and biology of the lion to the utmost.

Aaron and Bwanamich though see the "whole picture" better than anyone I know...honestly...listen to them.

We (Aaron, myself, Bwanamich, and several others) have formed an organization called the Lion Conservation Task Force. Our goal is to unite science and hunting and together save the wild lion.

Ms.jolouburn, believe me when I say that I am very glad your comments were not ment as taunts. You are correct I do not "know" what you are going to do or say but I have seen this format played out in the manner I laid out numerous times, again I'm glad this is not your intent. With you being a writer it is very true you cannot afford to do shoddy research, but we see it all the time. Once more I'm grateful you are looking to avoid that.
Of course I can choose not to participate, I would challenge anyone to "make me" do otherwise. I do find your mention of rights interesting, I would not impead your right to say whatever you wish (I may not agree, but you have that right) Also, rights cannot be taken away, they can only be surrendered (unfortunatly too many of those have been surrendered here in the US in the past few decades)
Anyway, thank you and now, back to the lions.

Jolouburn,

Aaron has explained things a lot better than I could. Something I owuld like to add that has not been said before (I don't think?), is that we do recognize that photo tourism HAS an important role to play in conserving wildlife in National Parks as the revenue derived is then ploughed back into law enforcement, research, monitoring and Park development. Unfortunately, and this is the same throughout Africa, the managing authorities are NOT always able to spend that money effectively or wisely, nor do they necessarily have the know how and experience to fully protect these wild spaces and their natural resources.

I do agree that some, NOT ALL, hunting concessions in Africa could generate more revenue from photo tourism than hunting, and these will probably become that way in the long run. I also beleive that many hunting concessions could entertain BOTH forms of utilization provided they are managed by the same operator for obvious reasons - in fact, TGTS does do this very successfully in those concessions which are suitable.

Lastly, TZ generates in excess of $1 billion from tourism which includes approx $300million from hunting. The comparison of average $ spent per tourist per day between the 2 sectors is roughly $1000:$1 in favor of hunters. Don't ask me to quote where these figures came from as they are from memory - too many articles, studies, reports, etc to remember which said what!