Lane, just a thought here, but it is something I have actually heard and read before concerning the killing part of this discussion. People, both hunters and anti-hunters view farm/ranch raised domestic animals differently than wild animals. Even though the end result is the same, an animal dies, people on both sides view the death of an animal purposely raised for the table differently than the death of an animal that was born and grew up in a free ranging, wild state.

The way death is carried out in an abattoir for the PC crowd, slaughterhouse in the more common language, is more controlled, more sterile, no one enjoys it, it is just a step in the process from the field to the table. Hunting on the other hand especially for those not familiar with the activity is full of uncertainty concerning the actual death of the animal and the possible perceived pain and suffering the animal is subject to before death actually occurs.

Now replace cattle/hogs/sheep/chickens in the scenerio with deer/elk or lions, a species not generally conidered as a food animal, even by hunters.

Add to that the use of such words when a Lion is killed/hunted as Sport/enjoyment/a rush, and people especially people that do not have the hunter genetics in them, start questioning as to How a peron can consider causing the death of an animal like a lion, a sport. Probably the worst thing that ever happened was when hunting began being classified as a Sport.

The average, normal(?) human considers baseball/cricket/football/rugby/soccer etc. etc. etc. as Sports. It is difficult for many folks, including some hunters to understand the equation that lumps one of, if not the oldest of human related activities, into a group of activities that people do as fun and are of a competitive nature.

Hunting and fishing are two of the most important base activities that helped humans evolve into the dominant species on the planet. When those activities became less important for our daily survival, some of us held on to the traditions and others did not. We have now evolved to the point that those that did not hold on to the traditions have started quetioning the neccessity of the activities even being conducted in this age of enlightenment.

That brings us to the dicussion about lions and the concept of huning them by people that are just doing so for reasons that do not make sense to lots of folks. The hardest concept I have had to explain to people I have met and worked with, is how I can love animals so much, yet be willing and able to go out and hunt them down and kill them.

Because lions are an apex predator that pose a real threat to the human inhabitants of the places where they live, if the insentive and influx of money from hunters, that can be used to fund proper management practices such as reimbursements to farmers for losses of livestock thru predation by lions, population dynamics studies and other programs, is taken away thru the closure of lion hunting, there will be no real reason for the goverments of the countries involved to make a realistic effort to keep the natives from exterminating lions by any means available.

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I do comprehend we hunt/kill animals for meat and yes i am a meat eater although i do not eat meat which has been hunted, ie shot through personal choice.

I have no problem from a rational point of view with people who hunt to eat as long as the population of the hunted animal is sustainable.

I have no problem with people eating sustainable animals which i would choose not to eat however they are killed such as dog, giraffe, zebra, wildebeest etc......

.....I hope this explains a little better where i am coming from

That explains perfectly and completely where you are coming from. Thank You.

Mrs. Jolouburn,





See these pictures? They are radiographs (x-rays) of my skull and C-spine. Yes...that is a bullet lodged against my 2nd cervical vertebrae.

I post them to prove to you that I know what it feels like to be shot for 2 reasons.

1) Earlier you asked if we would still support the right for ALL to have, own, and carry a gun if someone you know had been hurt by one with a gun. Well I was shot by someone who was careless to say the the least with a gun and I still support the right for ALL legal non-fellon citizens of any country to have, own, and carry a gun and I wear that slug every day of my life.

2) To prove to you I am an expert on what it feels like to be shot.

See...I told you earlier that I was a veterinarian and I practice clinical medicine. I have seen and aided hundreds of animals to die in the clinical setting. I also told you I was an avid hunter and have been all of my life. I have shot...well lets say many...animals in my life as a hunter and several as a veterinarian although most clinical cases are killed with an overdose of barbiturates.

So...I consider my self an expert on animal death.

I have also spent a fair amount of time on the kill floor of an abattoir as my family raises, buys, sells, and feeds cattle for beef consumption.

So what I am leading up to...is this: There is NO difference in hunter killed aniamls, veterinarian killed aniamls for humane reasons, or slaughter for food. It is all the same.

But if you asked me my least preferential place to spend time...it would be the kill floor of the slaughter house...the place you accept death of an aniaml as OK...myself...an expert on how animals die...find the least palatable.

Now...I am NOT slighting the abattoir's methods...they are fine. I just say don't slander hunter killed animals as inhumanely killed...as they are not.

Looks like you have a cavity

Jo,

It is probably too early to ask but I would be very interested in how/if your attitudes and conceptions about hunting and hunters have changed or are changing as a result of your engaging here. If they have.

Thanks,

John

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Now...I am NOT slighting the abattoir's methods...they are fine. I just say don't slander hunter killed animals as inhumanely killed...as they are not

Please do show me where i said it was inhumane!!

I even questioned whether the electric shock or a single bullet kill was more painful.

I make a personal choice not to eat hunt killed meat just as you make the choice that you would rather see hunt killed meat than abbatoir killed.

Please do not put words in my mouth.

Hi John,

In actual fact they have!!
I'm working at present but i will come back tomorrow am and respond properly.

I will also respond to all other posts properly then too.

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Please do show me where i said it was inhumane!!

Pardon me...I took the meaning of your writings to suggest that you felt animals killed on an abattoir floor were humanely killed vs. hunter killed animals being inhumanely killed.

If we agree that both are the same and humane...I have no argument with you Ma'am...none at all in the context of hunting.

I will reserve my comments to answer lion conservation questions.

Jolouburn,

Please take time to watch this video http://www.hunterproud.com/?page_id=22
Although it is not about hunting in Africa, the principles are applicable to any game species.

There are a number of other videos on the website that may interest you including this one http://www.hunterproud.com/wp-...ads/2011/05/Save.mov.

We are presently working on the African lion story.

quote:

Lane, just a thought here, but it is something I have actually heard and read before concerning the killing part of this discussion. People, both hunters and anti-hunters view farm/ranch raised domestic animals differently than wild animals. Even though the end result is the same, an animal dies, people on both sides view the death of an animal purposely raised for the table differently than the death of an animal that was born and grew up in a free ranging, wild state.

crazyhorseconsulting, I know the above quote was not addressed to me, but i am responding because i do feel there is a certain amount of truth there.
Take dogs as an example, i have a beautiful little (at the mo) chocolate labrador whom i adore and is a much loved member of the family. But in certain countries dogs are bred to be eaten and i had an extremely hard time coming to terms with that. I know it's slightly different because dogs are 'pets' in most places and not wild animals but it is similar.

quote:

Hunting and fishing are two of the most important base activities that helped humans evolve into the dominant species on the planet. When those activities became less important for our daily survival, some of us held on to the traditions and others did not. We have now evolved to the point that those that did not hold on to the traditions have started quetioning the neccessity of the activities even being conducted in this age of enlightenment.

I personally would question hunting as being 'necessary' in this day and age but i would also question people who say that football is necessary! That is not to say hunting should be banned completely or that football should. We all enjoy different things and just because i dont understand why people enjoy hunting or football doesn't make them wrong. I personally love speedway, not the cars, the bikes with no brakes, no gears and the wonderful smell of methanol. A lot of people don't understand that and thats just fine.
I do however acknowledge that for some places hunting is still a necessity.

Ledvm,

Please don't apologise. Every person who replies in this thread or questions my answers is making me think through a little more carefully my beliefs.

I unlike you have no first hand experience of abattoir death or hunting death, i only know what i have seen of both of them on tv and other visual sources. I do however have first hand experience of my dog being put to sleep.
I certainly feel after being with my dog whilst he went to sleep that it appeared to be humane and painless. I feel pretty much the same about one shot hunting kills. Abattoir not so much, they seem to know whats coming and scream and struggle and its awful to watch.
My issue with hunting kills is only where it becomes that the first shot doesn't kill the animal only maims it. Now i am in no way berating hunters in this, i know from browsing these forums that the aim is to kill in the first shot.
This is why i choose not to eat hunted meat. Also for me personally zebra, elephant, wildebeest just aren't something i choose to eat. I dont berate those who do though.

From a scientific point of view though i really have no clue what is the most humane way for an animal to die.

As for the right to bear arms without a permit i feel that this is possibly something i should not comment further on as when it comes to guns i have very limited knowledge and should probably withdraw my comments until i do.

Just as an aside a small story which shows i do try to rationalise all my thoughts regarding hunting. My last visit to SA was in May 2009 on honeymoon. We spent part of that holiday visiting family, part in the lion park and part in the Kruger Park.
Whilst browsing the shops in one of the rest camps i came across an impala hand bag. Now you will know better than i how soft and beautiful they feel, i fell in love with this bag.
However i said at the time i was not buying one because i didn't agree with hunting. On returning home i began to question myself, ie was an impala any different to a cow? We kill cows for meat and leather etc, was it really any different to killing an impala for its meat and skin?
Honestly i'm still battling with myself because for me it still all boils down to the one shot kill or not one shot kill. I know it probably sounds irrational and maybe it is but who knows one day ill come to a conclusion.

quote:

It is probably too early to ask but I would be very interested in how/if your attitudes and conceptions about hunting and hunters have changed or are changing as a result of your engaging here. If they have.

Hi John,

I am going to be brutally honest here and i hope people aren't offended but i need to be to show my attitude change.
Before i came here i believed all hunters were barbaric, deep pocketed thugs who didn't care about wildlife at all other than that they be able to keep their right to hunt it.
On engaging with you on the Lion Aid page i thought either this guy is pulling the wool to win his argument or he really does genuinely care about the wildlife, i honestly couldnt decide which.
So the decision was made i would come here and try to engage with you all and see what the truth was. It is true that i never had intentions of name calling, insulting or trolling, that would not have been right and i was hoping you would give me the same courtesy.

So what have i found?
The complete opposite honestly.
Honestly i was shocked and surprised to find the threads on conservation of wildlife and on reading posts in them how much people do care.
I was surprised to be welcomed so well by everyone i have engaged with and how polite and willing to engage they have been.

My attitudes on hunting.

This is difficult as i have not researched enough to say i agree with your thoughts on how the lion in particular should be conserved. But i am still open minded and reading what you point me in the direction off and taking it all on board.
I think the fact which i didn't know before coming here that the meat is mostly eaten and shared around is brilliant.
I still don't like and don't think i ever will the kills that are purely for (and i apologise i know some people dont like this word) trophies but that is just my opinion. It doesnt make trophy hunting wrong, just wrong for me.
I really would much prefer to see a lion in the wild than stuffed and in a trophy room.
I don't thinnk i will ever understand the enjoyment that you gain from hunting but there again i will never understand people who enjoy watching football. Hunting just isnt for me.

I, like you want whats best for the wildlife and the conservation of it. The only thing i can say at the moment is that if my research concludes hunting endangers lions i will support a ban on the hunting of lions. If research proves hunting is a help in the conservation of lions believe you me i will support to keep hunting them.

Zig Mackintosh,

Thank you for the links.
I will certainly watch them and get back to you with my thoughts.

Just speaking for myself, but this statement of yours,

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But i am still open minded and reading what you point me in the direction off and taking it all on board.

, is all I ever ask of anyone on any subject.

Too many people on all sides of the hunting issue, and not just the hunting of lions, are close minded on the subject.

As for the hunting of lions, data from actual in the field research and observation is the only thing that should be considered in formulating a management plan, not misplaced emotional hyperbole.

Regardless of your ultimate decision, you at least took some time and made an effort to try and gain some factual knowledge about hunters and hunting.

For that effort, I Thank You.

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From a scientific point of view though i really have no clue what is the most humane way for an animal to die.

Science shows there are no pain indicating brainwaves measured with EEG with a leathal dose of barbiturates.

The same study concluded gun-shot through center mass of the brain was no less humane than the OD of barbiturates.

Therefore...the captive-bolt method is probably the most humane means of death in an abattoir.