An excellent post Mastoideus79.

Hi John,

quote:

Regardless of how we approach it we (hunters) know that we are taking a life and with that comes a high level of responsibility.

It is incumbent on us to do our utmost to take an animal cleanly and quickly. Not to allow the animal to suffer needlessly. And to not waste the animal or to allow it to be wasted.

The vast majority of hunters take this very seriously.

I accept and understand all your points here. I have said several times here that i have read in the forums that a one shot kill is always what you aim for.
I have read here though about an elephant kill where the first shot did not kill him so multiple shot kills do happen.
I am not saying that because of a small percentage of kills not being made in one shot hunting should be banned, but i am saying this is why i choose not to eat hunted meat. Everyone has the right to make a choice over what they eat and why surely?

Whilst reading through the research you gave me on an earlier page i came across this :-

Why we hunt by John Madson.
'I count myself as a good shot. When the day comes that my eyes and reflexes impair that ability, I will not hunt again.'

Would you and others here agree with this sentiment?

Mastoideus79

quote:

The meat i by in a store on the other hand, i know very little about. Especially if it’s imported. How can i know if the animals was well treated when they were alive, and humanely put to death?

I agree, i only know in general how my meat is killed.
On the other hand if i hunt how do i know that what i shoot hasn't got some kind of illness, disease which will cause me harm? Whilst farmed meat is not infallible with this it is well controlled.

quote:

Yesterday i shot me a young cormorant for dinner. With potatoes, sauce and lingonberries it tasted perfectly If you eat meat, what can be more natural than that? Hunting in that sense is the same as fishing. You "harvest" the abundance of nature.

Sounds gorgeous although i do not know what lingonberries are!! I have absolutely no issue with you hunting your own meat providing it has no bad effect on the conservation of the species.

quote:

As for trophy hunting... Well i am a little ambivalent towards it, but as long as the population is big enough to hunt, the hunting is done correctly and the meat and skin is not wasted, i can’t see any good reasons why it shouldn’t be allowed

From a rational point of view i agree. From an emotional point of view i prefer to see my wildlife in the wild and not in a trophy room. But that is just personal choice, its wrong for me but i accept others have every right to do it. Again as long as the species is not endangered.

quote:

We humans are strange that way. We have no qualms about eating one kind of animal for dinner or using its skin, horns, carcass etc. (Do you know how gelatin is made? Kind of gross..) But animals that we consider exotic say a lion for us northern Europeans or a reindeer for an African, we consider "holy", and condemn those who hunt it.

I consider such views on nature incredibly naive and uninformed.

I have already stated previously that i accept other countries/people eat meat that i would choose not to such as dog, elephant, zebra, giraffe etc.I am neither naive and uninformed when it comes to this.
On the other hand i do have trouble with the shooting of lions. As i understand it lion meat is not eaten due to the lion being a predator and that the Africans believe it is barbaric to eat a predator. I also know that there are 'old wives tales' that eating lions will make you very sick. I know this not to be true but some people don't. I see and i may be wrong lions being hunted as purely trophy. Now i am not saying that trophy alone hunting is wrong but it is wrong for me.

ledvm,

quote:

I say this with the utmost sincerety: "Without hunting...the wild lion and its wild habitat cease to exist!"

And this is what i am researching at present. I'm sure i will soon have questions on what i have read

quote:

Our critics deplore hunting on an emotional basis, just as we hunters defend it. Each extreme would do well to share a more objective position. Both hunter and antihunter should be governed by sound biological principle. Hunting cannot be condoned if it is not based on biological management and does not demonstrate respect for game and the habitats in which it is hunted. On the other hand, hunting is best defended by adherence to sound biological principles and demonstration of a genuine respect for nature.

quote:

Our severest critics are much surer of themselves. The kindest thing they say about us is that we are cruel and dangerous children; at our worst, we are barbarians that revel in the joy of inflicting pain and death. And there is some truth in all of that. We cannot deny that such hunters do exist; to do so is to delude ourselves. On the other hand, the shrill antihunting critics seem unable to understand the motives that impel what I choose to call the “genuine hunter.” That is, the person with a deep personal bond to the game he hunts and the habitats in which he hunts it. Such emotion can result only from the respect that grows from experience and reflection.

From why we hunt by John Madson.

The first i agree with heartily.
The second i hope that i have proved i am capable of acting from a rational point of view as well as emotional. Not all anti-hunters are purely emotional honestly.

quote:

As someone who is completely against hunting full stop

A quote from myself which i hope you will allow me to take back

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jolouburn:

I have read here though about an elephant kill where the first shot did not kill him so multiple shot kills do happen.
/QUOTE]

Nothing in this world is perfect...nor should you expect shooting to be. There certainly are these situations and as long as there is hunting there will be more. We (hunters) would be dishonest to say otherwise. But...it is the pride of the hunter and his/her truest wish to kill quickly, cleanly, and with one shot if possible.

ledvm,

quote:

Nothing in this world is perfect...nor should you expect shooting to be. There certainly are these situations and as long as there is hunting there will be more. We (hunters) would be dishonest to say otherwise. But...it is the pride of the hunter and his/her truest wish to kill quickly, cleanly, and with one shot if possible.

I fully accept that as i have said previously.
I have also said as i understand it it is only a very small percentage of kills which aren't first shot and that i do not believe hunting should be banned because a small minority of kills take more than one shot. I honestly am not berating anyone.

I am wondering why noone is willing to discuss the eating of lion meat with me!

quote:

Photo-tourism - the other main way of deriving income from wildlife - can also generate large amounts of money. Kenya, which does not allow trophy hunting, estimates that tourism generated $840 million in 2006

http://www.newscientist.com/ar...ecies.html?full=true

quote:

According to a recent study, in the 23 African countries that allow sport hunting, 18,500 tourists pay over $200 million (U.S.) a year to hunt lions, leopards, elephants, warthogs, water buffalo, impala and rhinos.

From a study in 2007.

http://news.worldwild.org/to-b...-be-a-trophy-hunter/

Not saying i agree with what i am about to say but does this research not suggest that if hunting concessions became photo safari concessions more money may be made and put into the African economy?

You have to ask how many, in total, photo concessions are sustainable? If all hunting areas are appropriate for photo use. And if there is any value to having fewer humans encroaching on the habitat (it takes far fewer hunters for the given revenue).

I have never had lion but I have had leopard. It was actually pretty tasty. I know there is a restuarant or two that sells lion here in the states. It is pretty pricy though. In general very little or no protein is ever wasted in Africa.

Lane -just to follow up on your experiences. You are singularly the most experienced person when it comes to discussing beef butchering, hunting and what it feels like to take a bullet. But if I can suggest that to really complete your resume that you need to be able to speak to what cows may feel at the processor. While I think we can give you a pass on the captive bolt contraption you can still get sense about the electric shock type that Jo was referring to. I would suspect a taser would give you a good approximation of it. Think about it... you must do it... it would make you complete.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
ledvm,

quote:

Nothing in this world is perfect...nor should you expect shooting to be. There certainly are these situations and as long as there is hunting there will be more. We (hunters) would be dishonest to say otherwise. But...it is the pride of the hunter and his/her truest wish to kill quickly, cleanly, and with one shot if possible.

I fully accept that as i have said previously.
I have also said as i understand it it is only a very small percentage of kills which aren't first shot and that i do not believe hunting should be banned because a small minority of kills take more than one shot. I honestly am not berating anyone.

I am wondering why noone is willing to discuss the eating of lion meat with me!

If I kill one I'll eat some. I like to try things. There was a restaurant that offered "Lion Tacos" in Pheonix I think, as a gimmick as I recall, but pulled it from the menu because of "protests" from........nevermind.

As far as the money generated in Kenya from photo tourism, would that not be only in the "parks"? How is the game population doing outside the parks in Kenya without hunting to give it value?

Thanks for the replies. I'll be back when ive digested them, researched etc. Plenty of food for thought, thanks again.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:

Lane -just to follow up on your experiences. You are singularly the most experienced person when it comes to discussing beef butchering, hunting and what it feels like to take a bullet. But if I can suggest that to really complete your resume that you need to be able to speak to what cows may feel at the processor. While I think we can give you a pass on the captive bolt contraption you can still get sense about the electric shock type that Jo was referring to. I would suspect a taser would give you a good approximation of it. Think about it... you must do it... it would make you complete.

John,

I'll let you become the electric stun expert!

haha I will pass also.

cheers,
John

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
I agree, i only know in general how my meat is killed.
On the other hand if i hunt how do i know that what i shoot hasn't got some kind of illness, disease which will cause me harm? Whilst farmed meat is not infallible with this it is well controlled.

My point here is that you can’t really be sure unless you yourself raise your own cattle for eating or go out and hunt your own meat. For example, i while back in Sweden there was a big scandal where one of the biggest chains of where houses repacked and relabeled out of date meat products in order to make a bigger profit.. I used to buy food regularly from that chain of warehouses when i lived in Stockholm..

There are also more things to consider than just how an animal is put to death:
How is the general standard of life for a typical meat industry farm animal? I am not talking about small scale ecological farming here, but big time industrial meat production. Have you ever been to a chicken farm for instance? How are the sick animals or injured animals in a huge population treated? Does industrial meat production secure the natural instincts of the animals kept there? How about the use of antibiotics, steroids and gene manipulation? How are the animals treated when they are transported to the butchery? How long are they kept on the transport before they are offloaded? How are the animals that are injured under transport treated? Are they stressed by the general commotion when they move towards the place where they are butchered? Do they smell the blood?
To be honest, the whole idea of "industrial meat production" sickens me a little. This kind of industrial aproach to produtction of meat so overtly turns animals into products or objects for comsumption.

Therefore, the hunted meat i put on my families dinner table, i feel much better about.
To be fair, i also eat meat bought in the store, but i do make an effort not to buy much imported meat (although it is cheaper for some reason, i wonder why...), and i usually order meat form a local farmer every autumn.

The discussion about lion hunting i will leave to others, i have never even been to Africa

But in general the hunting/culling of the predator population makes sense i the same way as the controll of any other wild animal population does. For instance i hunt foxes regularly, but i never eat them (the risk of poisoning is real). Im not talking about endagered species here mind you.

Guess thats my 2 cents as far as this discussion goes.

Lars

John,

quote:

You have to ask how many, in total, photo concessions are sustainable? If all hunting areas are appropriate for photo use. And if there is any value to having fewer humans encroaching on the habitat (it takes far fewer hunters for the given revenue).

John, yes you do. It does seem to be working out pretty well for Kenya's economy though! Everywhere i have looked says that Kenyas wildlife is in decline, but there is nothing to suggest that allowing hunting concessions would improve the situation.
There is something to be said for a lesser footfall in animals habitat, but i also believe that photo safari plays a big part in conservation too, and that in the main people who go on them are respectful of being in the animals habitat and give them their space.

quote:

I have never had lion but I have had leopard. It was actually pretty tasty. I know there is a restuarant or two that sells lion here in the states. It is pretty pricy though. In general very little or no protein is ever wasted in Africa.

I'm aware that lion meat is available in certain places but i am curious whether the meat like that of perhaps a buffalo which i understand is shared round is also shared round. Considering the African opinion on eating lion are you really sure this meat is not wasted?