Aaron,

quote:

Is the lion in decline? If you say yes, give some scientific/factual proof, not rhetoric published by the likes of Derek & Beverly Joubert. Not Craig Packer, not Dr. Colleen Begg, not Dr. White, not Panthera, etc, etc, etc, can give any true/honest previous or current factual data as to the lion's current/past populations, simply a fact. It doesn't exist, because it can't be done! PLEASE REMEMBER THIS POINT - Scientists across the board, MUST create a never-ending problem, with an unqualified answer/solution, or else what would be there perpetual need? If there's not a perceived problem ALL THE TIME, then no one would be donating money, providing them funding, and helping them with their never-ending, and much "needed" studies. Just stop for a moment, and think about it. Often the answer is alot closer/easier than it appears. Without a "PROBLEM", who needs a scientist, and who needs to give them money?

Yes the lion is in decline. How can it not be? Human and lion conflict, poaching, unethical illegal hunting and feline aids amongst other things are all making their contribution.
You ask for scientific proof and claim there is none. Well with respect where is your scientific proof the lion is not in decline? If lion populations cannot be accounted for truly then you also cannot have any scientific proof the lion is not in decline.
Honestly i did not look up the people you said you would not accept research from as in much detail, only enough to see that with the exception of Dr Colleen Begg and Craig Packer whom i will come to shortly they all agree the lion is in decline. With respect standing on the side of the fence you do you are bound not to accept their research and claims.
Craig Packer. It is interesting you mention him as i know that he will have a big say in whether the lion goes from vulnerable to endangered. I also know from reading the forums that at one time Craig supported the hunters but seems to have made a uturn recently. Again i see why you will no longer accept his research.
Dr Colleen Begg, You first mention her as someone you will not accept research from then ask me to accept research from her further down.

quote:

Well, to be fair I need to consider Dr. Colleen Begg's experience as well. She operates the Niassa Carnivore Project, and has done so since 2004. Six months ago she told me specifically, and I quote, "Lion Hunting is NO LONGER a detriment to the wild lion population throughout the Niassa Reserve".

Can you explain this contradiction?

http://www.iucnredlist.org/app...list/details/15951/0

The lion is on this list for a reason.

http://www.hsi.org/news/news/2...or_lions_030111.html

This appears a little like countries stepping in to help oil rich countries. They want the oil and hunters want the trophies.

http://www.lionalert.org/pages/why-act-now.html

Interesting!

quote:

Now I can tell you for a fact, that lions are NOT declining in protected hunting concessions across most of Africa. If you or anyone disputes that, show me the scientific data to support it, the scientists that conducted said study, the hunting concessions in which the study was conducted, etc? You can't, cause its never happened! The closest any scientist has ever come to studying lions in live hunting concessions, with actual hunting taking place, with Professional Outfitters, is Dr. Paula White - Zambian Lion Project. And guess what, she's the most pro-lion hunting scientist I've ever met, period! Why, because she alone has more personal experience as a scientist, studying the lion, and seeing first-hand the effects/benefits of legal/ethical sport hunting of the lion, than any other scientist in the whole of Africa, bar none! Well, to be fair I need to consider Dr. Colleen Begg's experience as well. She operates the Niassa Carnivore Project, and has done so since 2004. Six months ago she told me specifically, and I quote, "Lion Hunting is NO LONGER a detriment to the wild lion population throughout the Niassa Reserve". Start listening to the scientists who study the lion in and amongst hunting areas, and the hunting community. Funny isn't it, that the only two so are women, and both of them are Pro-Lion Hunting, Hmmm????

How can you be so sure of your FACTS when noone has ever conducted a proper study? Back up your claim of fact or it is nothing but your personal opinion.
I personally am listening all round, its why i am here. Im not just listening to the scientists who are pro-hunting.

quote:

A temporary closure on Lion Hunting, really? First off, remember the old saying, "give an inch and they will take a mile." Give it up, and it will never come back, and neither will the lion for that matter.

I agree that a temporary closure will probably result in a permanent one. I reserve judgement on whether a closure would result in the demise of the lion. I do think though that the battle to keep the lion off the endangered list is a futile one, my gut feeling its going on there whether you like it or not, whether it is right or wrong.

quote:

The reason we all fight so hard for continued lion hunting, is because we CARE more than anyone else, and we KNOW what will happen if its gone.

I acknowledge you care but that you care more than anyone? Nope i won't concede to that, you cannot possibly know how much others care. Just because others think the solution is different to yours does not mean they care any less.
As for you know what will happen, none of us can know what will happen we can only guess, estimate, presume the effects any action will have on the conservation of the lion.

quote:

Half of the "outfitters" you list above, I've never heard of, and I've heard of most of them. Secondly, it appears most are SA outfitters? Comparing SA with the rest of Africa is like comparing Antarctica with the North Pole - the only thing they have in common is its COLD, nothing more! Again, and no offense, but because your knowledge base is so elementary, explaining all the differences, would take me 6 hrs

Wherever these hunting outfitters are is irrelevant to the fact of how they operate. The lion is in South Africa too! A lot of harm is done to hunters reputations by outfitters like these, the media doesnt report on ethical, legal hunts it picks on the bad ones. Perhaps it is time the hunting fraternity brought their house into order and cleaned up their act. I see noone here trying to put an end to bad outfitters, just trying to sweep it under the carpet for reasons such as 'thats in South Africa'.

quote:

Please, DO NOT insinuate or speculate on things, without knowing for sure, that's just totally irresponsible when arguing for or against any point!

Then please return the courtesy. Not all your claims are fact now are they, some are opinion alone and we are all entitled to one of those.

quote:

I know of no one who hunts in WILD/Free Ranging hunting concessions that as you say it, "bring in lions"! That's totally and 100% against the law! Again, you are referring to SA, not Africa as a whole, and certainly not wild Africa, there's a huge difference.

But again these practices go on and sweeping them under the carpet will not further your cause.

quote:

Jolouburn, the facts are simple and to those in the know, and to those that except the facts without some alternate agenda, will agree.

Im sorry but everyone has an agenda. Yours is to keep your right to hunt lions and conserve them, mine is to learn and support the correct cause.

I really appreciate you taking the time out to address my questions and provide me with some very useful info and places to look for more research. I will continue to research and approach with an open mind anything i find.
I would however say that whilst you believe 100% that the conservation of the lion is in the hands of hunters others do not agree. You ask an open mind from me but reject anyones research that disagrees with your own and will not even look at them. Perhaps your mind needs to be a little more open too.

These are just first thoughts to your post, actual research of what you have said will take ages.

ledvm,

quote:

We (Aaron, myself, Bwanamich, and several others) have formed an organization called the Lion Conservation Task Force. Our goal is to unite science and hunting and together save the wild lion.

I fear it will take much more than this to save the lion but i applaud your efforts and intentions.
If we stand any chance of saving the lion i think it will take independent unbiased research presented to both sides of the fence and then acted upon together.

Bwanamich,

Thanks for your response. I did see that one of the hunting outfitters i quoted earlier did both, photo and hunting.
Im certainly not saying hunting has no place and should be banned completely.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Jolouburn,

Aaron has explained things a lot better than I could. Something I owuld like to add that has not been said before (I don't think?), is that we do recognize that photo tourism HAS an important role to play in conserving wildlife in National Parks as the revenue derived is then ploughed back into law enforcement, research, monitoring and Park development. Unfortunately, and this is the same throughout Africa, the managing authorities are NOT always able to spend that money effectively or wisely, nor do they necessarily have the know how and experience to fully protect these wild spaces and their natural resources.

I do agree that some, NOT ALL, hunting concessions in Africa could generate more revenue from photo tourism than hunting, and these will probably become that way in the long run. I also beleive that many hunting concessions could entertain BOTH forms of utilization provided they are managed by the same operator for obvious reasons - in fact, TGTS does do this very successfully in those concessions which are suitable.

Lastly, TZ generates in excess of $1 billion from tourism which includes approx $300million from hunting. The comparison of average $ spent per tourist per day between the 2 sectors is roughly $1000:$1 in favor of hunters. Don't ask me to quote where these figures came from as they are from memory - too many articles, studies, reports, etc to remember which said what!

Jolouburn - The photographic industry point made here by Bwanamich is a good one, but as he too says and would say everytime, it has its limitations as well.

Just to make it easy, I'm gonna go back to the exact same location in Zambia (Lunga Luswishi - GMA) I used above. This area, although a wildlife paradise, would make a poor choice for a photographic safari area. First off, the area is primarily miombo woodlands, not open savannah like most folks are accustom to seeing on NatGeo and the Discovery Channel. Thus, game viewing is not very productive, even though the game is quite plentiful. Its not even remotely an area with spectacular views of the landscape, etc, etc. Often times your limited view includes only what can be seen within 75 yards of the vehicle, period! For those that have not traveled across much of Africa, many parts of Tanzania included, simply don't know this fact. Everyone seems to think Africa as a whole looks like the Serengeti/Ngorngoro region of northern TZ, and nothing could be further from the truth.

Second, unlike the Serengeti/Ngorngoro, many - many hunting concessions across Tanzania, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Central Africa, etc, etc, are swarming with either Tsetsee flies, Mopani Flies, or both!! Have you ever personally experienced areas that are infested with these annoying bugs? Tsetsee flies are mosquitos on steroids, relentless in their pursuit on moving targets, and often their bite in quite painful. Mopani flies on the other hand don't bite, but they do swarm by the hundreds/thousands, around your head, trying to get into your eyes, ears, nose and mouth (they are also commonly referred to as sweat bees). My point you ask? Fact is, many of the areas will never be suitable for photographic safaris, period! Hunters are often times, the only adventurers willing to put up with these problems and endure the elements, in search of a good hunting area. I assure you, the first time many photographic folks, soft men, women and children included, experienced a full-on onslaught from either tsetsee flies, mopani flies. or both, they would be out of there so fast, there hair would be on fire! Many hunting concessions are simply not suitable for photographic safaris, period!!! Again, and without being offensive. Had you been to as many hunting concessions all across southern/eastern Africa as some, these facts wouldn't even need to be explained.

Lastly, and again, unlike the most common photographic areas all across Africa. Many of the hunting blocks across the continent are in remote locations, which require a huge amount of money to operate, and a huge amoun of money to get to in the first place! Meaning, often times photographic folks are not willing to pay a $6,000.00 RT (1.5 hr) charter flight just to get from their arrival city in a particular country, to the chosen location. That's why you see so often, that many of the most popular photographic locations are fairly close to major arrival cities. Thus totally eliminating these very expensive transportation costs. Not to mention the cost associated with operating these very remote camps, would then be passed to the client, and many photographers are not going to be willing to pay those high prices, period! Hunters are, and they do!!

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Aaron,

quote:

Is the lion in decline? If you say yes, give some scientific/factual proof, not rhetoric published by the likes of Derek & Beverly Joubert. Not Craig Packer, not Dr. Colleen Begg, not Dr. White, not Panthera, etc, etc, etc, can give any true/honest previous or current factual data as to the lion's current/past populations, simply a fact. It doesn't exist, because it can't be done! PLEASE REMEMBER THIS POINT - Scientists across the board, MUST create a never-ending problem, with an unqualified answer/solution, or else what would be there perpetual need? If there's not a perceived problem ALL THE TIME, then no one would be donating money, providing them funding, and helping them with their never-ending, and much "needed" studies. Just stop for a moment, and think about it. Often the answer is alot closer/easier than it appears. Without a "PROBLEM", who needs a scientist, and who needs to give them money?

Yes the lion is in decline. How can it not be? Human and lion conflict, poaching, unethical illegal hunting and feline aids amongst other things are all making their contribution.
You ask for scientific proof and claim there is none. Well with respect where is your scientific proof the lion is not in decline? If lion populations cannot be accounted for truly then you also cannot have any scientific proof the lion is not in decline.
Honestly i did not look up the people you said you would not accept research from as in much detail, only enough to see that with the exception of Dr Colleen Begg and Craig Packer whom i will come to shortly they all agree the lion is in decline. With respect standing on the side of the fence you do you are bound not to accept their research and claims.
Craig Packer. It is interesting you mention him as i know that he will have a big say in whether the lion goes from vulnerable to endangered. I also know from reading the forums that at one time Craig supported the hunters but seems to have made a uturn recently. Again i see why you will no longer accept his research.
Dr Colleen Begg, You first mention her as someone you will not accept research from then ask me to accept research from her further down.

quote:

Well, to be fair I need to consider Dr. Colleen Begg's experience as well. She operates the Niassa Carnivore Project, and has done so since 2004. Six months ago she told me specifically, and I quote, "Lion Hunting is NO LONGER a detriment to the wild lion population throughout the Niassa Reserve".

Can you explain this contradiction?

http://www.iucnredlist.org/app...list/details/15951/0

The lion is on this list for a reason.

http://www.hsi.org/news/news/2...or_lions_030111.html

This appears a little like countries stepping in to help oil rich countries. They want the oil and hunters want the trophies.

http://www.lionalert.org/pages/why-act-now.html

Interesting!

quote:

Now I can tell you for a fact, that lions are NOT declining in protected hunting concessions across most of Africa. If you or anyone disputes that, show me the scientific data to support it, the scientists that conducted said study, the hunting concessions in which the study was conducted, etc? You can't, cause its never happened! The closest any scientist has ever come to studying lions in live hunting concessions, with actual hunting taking place, with Professional Outfitters, is Dr. Paula White - Zambian Lion Project. And guess what, she's the most pro-lion hunting scientist I've ever met, period! Why, because she alone has more personal experience as a scientist, studying the lion, and seeing first-hand the effects/benefits of legal/ethical sport hunting of the lion, than any other scientist in the whole of Africa, bar none! Well, to be fair I need to consider Dr. Colleen Begg's experience as well. She operates the Niassa Carnivore Project, and has done so since 2004. Six months ago she told me specifically, and I quote, "Lion Hunting is NO LONGER a detriment to the wild lion population throughout the Niassa Reserve". Start listening to the scientists who study the lion in and amongst hunting areas, and the hunting community. Funny isn't it, that the only two so are women, and both of them are Pro-Lion Hunting, Hmmm????

How can you be so sure of your FACTS when noone has ever conducted a proper study? Back up your claim of fact or it is nothing but your personal opinion.
I personally am listening all round, its why i am here. Im not just listening to the scientists who are pro-hunting.

quote:

A temporary closure on Lion Hunting, really? First off, remember the old saying, "give an inch and they will take a mile." Give it up, and it will never come back, and neither will the lion for that matter.

I agree that a temporary closure will probably result in a permanent one. I reserve judgement on whether a closure would result in the demise of the lion. I do think though that the battle to keep the lion off the endangered list is a futile one, my gut feeling its going on there whether you like it or not, whether it is right or wrong.

quote:

The reason we all fight so hard for continued lion hunting, is because we CARE more than anyone else, and we KNOW what will happen if its gone.

I acknowledge you care but that you care more than anyone? Nope i won't concede to that, you cannot possibly know how much others care. Just because others think the solution is different to yours does not mean they care any less.
As for you know what will happen, none of us can know what will happen we can only guess, estimate, presume the effects any action will have on the conservation of the lion.

quote:

Half of the "outfitters" you list above, I've never heard of, and I've heard of most of them. Secondly, it appears most are SA outfitters? Comparing SA with the rest of Africa is like comparing Antarctica with the North Pole - the only thing they have in common is its COLD, nothing more! Again, and no offense, but because your knowledge base is so elementary, explaining all the differences, would take me 6 hrs

Wherever these hunting outfitters are is irrelevant to the fact of how they operate. The lion is in South Africa too! A lot of harm is done to hunters reputations by outfitters like these, the media doesnt report on ethical, legal hunts it picks on the bad ones. Perhaps it is time the hunting fraternity brought their house into order and cleaned up their act. I see noone here trying to put an end to bad outfitters, just trying to sweep it under the carpet for reasons such as 'thats in South Africa'.

quote:

Please, DO NOT insinuate or speculate on things, without knowing for sure, that's just totally irresponsible when arguing for or against any point!

Then please return the courtesy. Not all your claims are fact now are they, some are opinion alone and we are all entitled to one of those.

quote:

I know of no one who hunts in WILD/Free Ranging hunting concessions that as you say it, "bring in lions"! That's totally and 100% against the law! Again, you are referring to SA, not Africa as a whole, and certainly not wild Africa, there's a huge difference.

But again these practices go on and sweeping them under the carpet will not further your cause.

quote:

Jolouburn, the facts are simple and to those in the know, and to those that except the facts without some alternate agenda, will agree.

Im sorry but everyone has an agenda. Yours is to keep your right to hunt lions and conserve them, mine is to learn and support the correct cause.

I really appreciate you taking the time out to address my questions and provide me with some very useful info and places to look for more research. I will continue to research and approach with an open mind anything i find.
I would however say that whilst you believe 100% that the conservation of the lion is in the hands of hunters others do not agree. You ask an open mind from me but reject anyones research that disagrees with your own and will not even look at them. Perhaps your mind needs to be a little more open too.

These are just first thoughts to your post, actual research of what you have said will take ages.

I'll try to respond to this tonight or tomorrow! Sorry, just can't get to it at the moment.

Aaron,

No worries on getting back to me, i understand you're really busy.

quote:

Just to make it easy, I'm gonna go back to the exact same location in Zambia (Lunga Luswishi - GMA) I used above. This area, although a wildlife paradise, would make a poor choice for a photographic safari area. First off, the area is primarily miombo woodlands, not open savannah like most folks are accustom to seeing on NatGeo and the Discovery Channel. Thus, game viewing is not very productive, even though the game is quite plentiful. Its not even remotely an area with spectacular views of the landscape, etc, etc. Often times your limited view includes only what can be seen within 75 yards of the vehicle, period! For those that have not traveled across much of Africa, many parts of Tanzania included, simply don't know this fact. Everyone seems to think Africa as a whole looks like the Serengeti/Ngorngoro region of northern TZ, and nothing could be further from the truth.

I cxompletely understand what you are saying here. After spending time in the Kruger Park i know the African landscape is not all open savannah.

quote:

Second, unlike the Serengeti/Ngorngoro, many - many hunting concessions across Tanzania, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Central Africa, etc, etc, are swarming with either Tsetsee flies, Mopani Flies, or both!! Have you ever personally experienced areas that are infested with these annoying bugs? Tsetsee flies are mosquitos on steroids, relentless in their pursuit on moving targets, and often their bite in quite painful. Mopani flies on the other hand don't bite, but they do swarm by the hundreds/thousands, around your head, trying to get into your eyes, ears, nose and mouth (they are also commonly referred to as sweat bees). My point you ask? Fact is, many of the areas will never be suitable for photographic safaris, period! Hunters are often times, the only adventurers willing to put up with these problems and endure the elements, in search of a good hunting area. I assure you, the first time many photographic folks, soft men, women and children included, experienced a full-on onslaught from either tsetsee flies, mopani flies. or both, they would be out of there so fast, there hair would be on fire! Many hunting concessions are simply not suitable for photographic safaris, period!!! Again, and without being offensive. Had you been to as many hunting concessions all across southern/eastern Africa as some, these facts wouldn't even need to be explained.

I have heard of these but honestly don't think i have encountered them. I know little about them. I did encounter the mosquitos and their bites weren't pleasant. I also can comprehend what you are saying about Mopani flies on some level too. We have midges over here that do the same thing and they drive me batty. I do comprehend that the mopani fly is probably ten times worse.

quote:

Lastly, and again, unlike the most common photographic areas all across Africa. Many of the hunting blocks across the continent are in remote locations, which require a huge amount of money to operate, and a huge amoun of money to get to in the first place! Meaning, often times photographic folks are not willing to pay a $6,000.00 RT (1.5 hr) charter flight just to get from their arrival city in a particular country, to the chosen location. That's why you see so often, that many of the most popular photographic locations are fairly close to major arrival cities. Thus totally eliminating these very expensive transportation costs. Not to mention the cost associated with operating these very remote camps, would then be passed to the client, and many photographers are not going to be willing to pay those high prices, period! Hunters are, and they do!!

I also comprehend what you are saying here too. On a slightly different note it is a shame that certain areas of wildlife are only available to those who can afford to go there.

Out of curiosity what are peoples opinions on the lion cpnservation programs already around such as :-

Large predator research and conservation at kwazulu-natal
The lion volunteer projects at victoria falls, zimbabwe
Antelope Park
Lion conservation fund
Living with lions
The lion park
Kingdom of the white lion
African lion working group

Jo,

A wild card that you may be sensing but can't quite put your finger on is this.

Why aren't hunters willing to draw a firm legal line regarding what is an appropriate lion to kill or not.

In principle I think many hunters would be willing to do just that however in practice it could be disasterous for an individual. As educated and prepared as hunters are heading to Africa we are still highly dependent on the judgement of our professional hunter. If you make it against the law to shoot a three year old lion and even if the penalties are relatively minor in country (hide is confiscated for instance) an American hunter would possibly face federal prosecution under the Lacey act and end up in prison. That changes the stakes considerbly, so much so that an American would be foolish to risk it. Thus causing the same effect as simply closing hunting.

If one could effectively post mortem age a lion and the penalty was loosing your trophy (and trophy fee etc...). But no follow on risk then you would probably find a lot of support. The industry would sort itself out pretty quick. Those PH's that set up a shot on a younger lion would not get much follow up business because some hunter lost $90,000.

Ironically the Lacey act is forcing hunters to lobby against such laws to the detriment of lions.

John

BTW: virtually all SA lions and lion outfits are canned. Even SCI puts SA lions in there own category. For the most part SA lions have no impact on the conservation of wild lions.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Aaron,

quote:

Is the lion in decline? If you say yes, give some scientific/factual proof, not rhetoric published by the likes of Derek & Beverly Joubert. Not Craig Packer, not Dr. Colleen Begg, not Dr. White, not Panthera, etc, etc, etc, can give any true/honest previous or current factual data as to the lion's current/past populations, simply a fact. It doesn't exist, because it can't be done! PLEASE REMEMBER THIS POINT - Scientists across the board, MUST create a never-ending problem, with an unqualified answer/solution, or else what would be there perpetual need? If there's not a perceived problem ALL THE TIME, then no one would be donating money, providing them funding, and helping them with their never-ending, and much "needed" studies. Just stop for a moment, and think about it. Often the answer is alot closer/easier than it appears. Without a "PROBLEM", who needs a scientist, and who needs to give them money?

Yes the lion is in decline. How can it not be? Human and lion conflict, poaching, unethical illegal hunting and feline aids amongst other things are all making their contribution.
You ask for scientific proof and claim there is none. Well with respect where is your scientific proof the lion is not in decline? If lion populations cannot be accounted for truly then you also cannot have any scientific proof the lion is not in decline.
Honestly i did not look up the people you said you would not accept research from as in much detail, only enough to see that with the exception of Dr Colleen Begg and Craig Packer whom i will come to shortly they all agree the lion is in decline. With respect standing on the side of the fence you do you are bound not to accept their research and claims.
Craig Packer. It is interesting you mention him as i know that he will have a big say in whether the lion goes from vulnerable to endangered. I also know from reading the forums that at one time Craig supported the hunters but seems to have made a uturn recently. Again i see why you will no longer accept his research.
Dr Colleen Begg, You first mention her as someone you will not accept research from then ask me to accept research from her further down.

quote:

Well, to be fair I need to consider Dr. Colleen Begg's experience as well. She operates the Niassa Carnivore Project, and has done so since 2004. Six months ago she told me specifically, and I quote, "Lion Hunting is NO LONGER a detriment to the wild lion population throughout the Niassa Reserve".

Can you explain this contradiction?

http://www.iucnredlist.org/app...list/details/15951/0

The lion is on this list for a reason.

http://www.hsi.org/news/news/2...or_lions_030111.html

This appears a little like countries stepping in to help oil rich countries. They want the oil and hunters want the trophies.

http://www.lionalert.org/pages/why-act-now.html

Interesting!

quote:

Now I can tell you for a fact, that lions are NOT declining in protected hunting concessions across most of Africa. If you or anyone disputes that, show me the scientific data to support it, the scientists that conducted said study, the hunting concessions in which the study was conducted, etc? You can't, cause its never happened! The closest any scientist has ever come to studying lions in live hunting concessions, with actual hunting taking place, with Professional Outfitters, is Dr. Paula White - Zambian Lion Project. And guess what, she's the most pro-lion hunting scientist I've ever met, period! Why, because she alone has more personal experience as a scientist, studying the lion, and seeing first-hand the effects/benefits of legal/ethical sport hunting of the lion, than any other scientist in the whole of Africa, bar none! Well, to be fair I need to consider Dr. Colleen Begg's experience as well. She operates the Niassa Carnivore Project, and has done so since 2004. Six months ago she told me specifically, and I quote, "Lion Hunting is NO LONGER a detriment to the wild lion population throughout the Niassa Reserve". Start listening to the scientists who study the lion in and amongst hunting areas, and the hunting community. Funny isn't it, that the only two so are women, and both of them are Pro-Lion Hunting, Hmmm????

How can you be so sure of your FACTS when noone has ever conducted a proper study? Back up your claim of fact or it is nothing but your personal opinion.
I personally am listening all round, its why i am here. Im not just listening to the scientists who are pro-hunting.

quote:

A temporary closure on Lion Hunting, really? First off, remember the old saying, "give an inch and they will take a mile." Give it up, and it will never come back, and neither will the lion for that matter.

I agree that a temporary closure will probably result in a permanent one. I reserve judgement on whether a closure would result in the demise of the lion. I do think though that the battle to keep the lion off the endangered list is a futile one, my gut feeling its going on there whether you like it or not, whether it is right or wrong.

quote:

The reason we all fight so hard for continued lion hunting, is because we CARE more than anyone else, and we KNOW what will happen if its gone.

I acknowledge you care but that you care more than anyone? Nope i won't concede to that, you cannot possibly know how much others care. Just because others think the solution is different to yours does not mean they care any less.
As for you know what will happen, none of us can know what will happen we can only guess, estimate, presume the effects any action will have on the conservation of the lion.

quote:

Half of the "outfitters" you list above, I've never heard of, and I've heard of most of them. Secondly, it appears most are SA outfitters? Comparing SA with the rest of Africa is like comparing Antarctica with the North Pole - the only thing they have in common is its COLD, nothing more! Again, and no offense, but because your knowledge base is so elementary, explaining all the differences, would take me 6 hrs

Wherever these hunting outfitters are is irrelevant to the fact of how they operate. The lion is in South Africa too! A lot of harm is done to hunters reputations by outfitters like these, the media doesnt report on ethical, legal hunts it picks on the bad ones. Perhaps it is time the hunting fraternity brought their house into order and cleaned up their act. I see noone here trying to put an end to bad outfitters, just trying to sweep it under the carpet for reasons such as 'thats in South Africa'.

quote:

Please, DO NOT insinuate or speculate on things, without knowing for sure, that's just totally irresponsible when arguing for or against any point!

Then please return the courtesy. Not all your claims are fact now are they, some are opinion alone and we are all entitled to one of those.

quote:

I know of no one who hunts in WILD/Free Ranging hunting concessions that as you say it, "bring in lions"! That's totally and 100% against the law! Again, you are referring to SA, not Africa as a whole, and certainly not wild Africa, there's a huge difference.

But again these practices go on and sweeping them under the carpet will not further your cause.

quote:

Jolouburn, the facts are simple and to those in the know, and to those that except the facts without some alternate agenda, will agree.

Im sorry but everyone has an agenda. Yours is to keep your right to hunt lions and conserve them, mine is to learn and support the correct cause.

I really appreciate you taking the time out to address my questions and provide me with some very useful info and places to look for more research. I will continue to research and approach with an open mind anything i find.
I would however say that whilst you believe 100% that the conservation of the lion is in the hands of hunters others do not agree. You ask an open mind from me but reject anyones research that disagrees with your own and will not even look at them. Perhaps your mind needs to be a little more open too.

These are just first thoughts to your post, actual research of what you have said will take ages.

Holy cow Jo, you sure are windy I'll do my best here, but I only have about 45 minutes to reply.

1. Lion in Decline? Jo, I too will agree, but I kind of set up this question to see your response and to put forth some perspective. Let me give you an example, one which speaks volumes for the continued necessity of legal lion hunting, and one that can be varified by Bwanamich. Human encroachment/human-lion conflict is the BIGGEST most prolific problem facing the lion. Does unethical/illegal lion hunting take place, possibly, but although I rail against that more than you could ever imagine, its frankly a very small part of the problem. Not saying its ok, just trying to tackle the biggest, most pressing issue at the moment.

Look at the Kigosi Game Reserve in western Tanzania. First, Game Reserves are by law, legal hunting/wildlife areas, where human habitation, domestic livestock, and anyone who's not suppose to be there in general, is to be strictly forbidden by law, period! But, because of the ability, or lack there of, by the current hunting operator to sufficiently sell hunts, meaning he's not been in a financial position to properly aid, support and sufficiently conduct/pay for anti-poaching patrols, etc, etc, the reserve over the past several years has been invaded by the locals. These locals have moved into the Reserve (against the law), have turned hundreds of domestic livestock loose within the reserve (against the law), and poaching has run rampant! Basically, they have completely disrupted and forever changed the entire makeup of the Game Reserve, and the wildlife which inhabit it. When the game is harassed, removed/poached, or generally become part of an un-inhabitable area, because of human disruption, they disappear! When the game disappears, so does the lion! When the lion creates a problem, attacks livestock or threatens the locals, they are killed, period! All in a place that is/was suppose to be set aside as a wildlife sanctuary, with limited/legal and sustainable hunting, which can be and usually is a huge benefit to the wildlife. This example is and will continue to flourish all across south/east Africa, if these hunting areas are allowed to diminish. Its important that you PAY CLOSE attention to my example of the huge financial necessity lion hunting itself, plays in the financial capability/stability of almost every hunting operator in Tanzania and Zambia in particular, and to a large degree, many parts of Zimbabwe and Mozambique too. Without it, 99% of these operators will be out of business, or their financial capabilites will be so little, that they will not be able to support the continued partols and support of law-enforcement needed to stop/fight against poaching, encroachment, etc. Finally, they just give up, move out, and the area is lost forever, and so is the wildlife. Hunting and lion hunting in these areas is HUGELY important to their continued success.

Know this - now that we have got past the kind words and you want to get to the real issues, I'm gonna be frank, but hopefully not offensive in every response I give you here. Had you ever actually experienced for yourself, exactly what I say above, you would know the truth. I have, many, many times, throughout Tanzania, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Botswana, parts of Mozambique, parts of Namibia, and parts of the CAR too. Nothing you can say, quote from some other document, paper or person, will ever be an exception to real live, on the ground experience. See it for yourself, then tell me I'm wrong?

2. Somewhere I may not have been clear about my views on scientists, Dr. Begg in particular. I've conceeded above the lion has been in decline (in some places, not all) across Africa. I totally support her science, she's one of only two lion scientists I know who is actually working hands on with hunters in the field!!! She said specifically to me and others in an email, "Lion hunting in the Niassa Reserve, since the inception in 2004, of the Niassa Carnivore Project, is NO LONGER a detriment to the lion population within the reserve, period - end of story. The only other scientist that I know of, who spends months each year in and amongst hunting blocks, with hunting operators, and observing/studying and taking samples of lion hunted trophies, is Dr. Paula White - Zambian Lion Project. I know for a fact what she does, because I personally have spent time with her in the field, in Zambia. We've tried to call in/dart lions together, in an actual hunting block. She's been with me on two of my own Zambian Lion hunts, she's observed what we do, how we do it, what we classify as a suitable lion, etc, etc, etc. And she's done the same with the majority of the hunting operators across the entire country, both in the Luangwa Valley and the Kafue region. I've offered to give you her personal email, and you can ask her yourself, her opinion of lion hunting and the role it plays in the longevity of the Zambian Lion. I don't need to ask her, cause we've talked about it 100 times, I know exactly where she stands, and mind you, her opinion is based on years of in the field, on the ground, practical, real life - lion experience. And trust me, she would sooner shoot herself than her beloved lions!

In short, I've spent hours emailing Dr. Packer and several phone conversations too. He told me point blank, "we", meaning the hunting industry "must change our ways and conform to better lion hunting practices." "If we don't, the lion will be uplisted, and lion hunting and the lion will be the loser in the end." Will he say that to you, or in public, I don't know? But I give you my honest word, that's exactly what he told me over the phone, and I exagerate it not! Point blank, he told me that he DOES NOT want to see the lion up-listed. I truly think he wants to use the pressure/threat of that possibility, to make those operators who are NOT doing a good job, get in line. I sincerely believe that.

3. How can I be so sure of my facts that lions are NOT declining in the vast majority of qualified, well looked after hunting blocks you ask?? PERSONAL on the ground experience my friend, 16 years worth of it all across east/south Africa, in more lion hunting areas, on more lion hunts than I care to remember. Not to mention, talk to the two Dr. ladies who spend more time in more lion hunting areas/camps/concessions than any other scientists on the planet. If Dr. White tells you that lions are declining throughout Zambia's hunting blocks - Game Management Areas (GMA's), I'll come on AR, Facebook (which I do not do) and everywhere else you want me to, and I will speak out against continued lion hunting throught Zambia! And yes, I do have science to back these claims, she's a DOCTOR, studying the Zambian Lions since 2004, and previous to that, studying lions in Kenya/Tanzania too!!!!!!

4. Yep, you too are entitled to your opinion. Difference is, I'm basing mine on 16 years of in-field experience, how about you? That's the problem with this whole internet/AR/Facebook farce. 99.9% of em still think Africa's a country, most who have been there, have never spent 5 minutes in or amongst truly wild/remote hunting concessions, nor have they 1 ounce of experience with conservation minded hunting operators. If you can find one lion "scientist/expert" who has spent as much time, in as many different countries/regions/locales and most importantly - hunting concessions, observing, learning from and hunting the lions within these areas, as myself, I'm all ears???

5. I hope you're wrong as it pertains to the eventual up-listing of the lion, but I too can only speculate on that one.

6. You're right, likely others care just as much as I do about the lion, no doubt! And as you state, we just might dis-agree on the right path for the lion's longevity. The only claim I can make, is I base my care/concern and opinion on the right path for the lion, from the real-life, field experience I keep harping on. Like I've already said. You can take it or leave it, that's up to you. But if you really want to be informed and make an informed decision, or pass your opinion onto others, get the in-field/live experience, and then your opinion will carry alot more weight.

7. You say the practice of "bringing in lions" goes on, and should not be swept under the rug. Well, show me you're proof of that?? I too have heard that claim before, and I've asked for the proof, but have yet to ever see someone produce any! Put & take lion hunting in SA is not part of this discussion. Show me any proof that some hunting operator in Tanzania/Zambia/Botswana, etc, has ever "brought in" some trophy lion to shoot? I've lion hunted all across Africa, and I've NEVER seen anything of the kind, how about you??

8. I do not reject other sound/experience based or scientific info/opinions, not at all. I reject arm-chair, internet/Facebook experts, taking at face value what someone else says, even "scientists", who make claims about areas, places, lion populations, lion ages, etc, etc, in places they've never even been. I respect Dr. Whitman's work in Tanzania as it pertains to the lion, now ask her how much time she's spent in the Omay region of Zimbabwe, studying/observing/looking at, or aging lions? If you or anyone else, honestly thinks that lions all across the continent of Africa have the same genetics, age characteristics, mane development, nose pigmentation, etc, etc, etc, you are sadly mistaken. To be an expert on the southern/eastern African Lion, one must have experience with the lion throughout this ENTIRE range, not just one country/one locale. That in itself is irresponsible science and irresponsible claims based on potentially false info.

My 45 minutes turned into 1.5 hrs, good night!!!

This thread is really good. It has very experienced people making detailed contributions. It should be required reading for anyone interested in lions.

I am learning alot.
Thanks,
John

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
ledvm,

quote:

We (Aaron, myself, Bwanamich, and several others) have formed an organization called the Lion Conservation Task Force. Our goal is to unite science and hunting and together save the wild lion.

I fear it will take much more than this to save the lion but i applaud your efforts and intentions.
If we stand any chance of saving the lion i think it will take independent unbiased research presented to both sides of the fence and then acted upon together.

If we don't try...we are certain to fail.

It takes money to do research and the LCTF is in the process of raising some just for this.

Tell the otherside to ante-up and HEED the UNBIASED portion of your quote.

quote:

A wild card that you may be sensing but can't quite put your finger on is this.

Why aren't hunters willing to draw a firm legal line regarding what is an appropriate lion to kill or not.

You're right! I was struggling to put together what appears to be the ethics of most here (not killing lions under 5/6) and the defensive way any lion kill under that age is defended.

quote:

In principle I think many hunters would be willing to do just that however in practice it could be disasterous for an individual. As educated and prepared as hunters are heading to Africa we are still highly dependent on the judgement of our professional hunter. If you make it against the law to shoot a three year old lion and even if the penalties are relatively minor in country (hide is confiscated for instance) an American hunter would possibly face federal prosecution under the Lacey act and end up in prison. That changes the stakes considerbly, so much so that an American would be foolish to risk it. Thus causing the same effect as simply closing hunting.

I see what you are saying here especially considering the difficulties there appears to be in comprehensively aging a lion.

quote:

If one could effectively post mortem age a lion and the penalty was loosing your trophy (and trophy fee etc...). But no follow on risk then you would probably find a lot of support. The industry would sort itself out pretty quick. Those PH's that set up a shot on a younger lion would not get much follow up business because some hunter lost $90,000.

Ironically the Lacey act is forcing hunters to lobby against such laws to the detriment of lions.

Whether the Lacey act remains as it is or is amended and a new law is brought in regarding age of lions allowed to be hunted there are still going to be penalties. The results of breaking the law should it be brought in could be just as harsh.
My worry would be that the Lacey act gets amended and then the law doesn't get passed leaving those unethical hunters out there free to shoot any lion they choose. Or that a law is passed but the penalties for breaking it are that weak they prove to be little deterent against unethical hunters.

I think with lion aging proving to be as difficult as it is no law is going to be infallible. A claim true or false that the PH and hunter thought the lion was older is never going to be proven either way.

The door is always going to be open to the unethical hunter and this can only harm the ethical law abiding hunter.

quote:

Originally posted by moi:
I fear it will take much more than this to save the lion but i applaud your efforts and intentions.
If we stand any chance of saving the lion i think it will take independent unbiased research presented to both sides of the fence and then acted upon together.

quote:

If we don't try...we are certain to fail.

It takes money to do research and the LCTF is in the process of raising some just for this.

Tell the otherside to ante-up and HEED the UNBIASED portion of your quote.

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DRSS

Not sure which part of my quote was biased there?

The problem i would have with telling the other side what you have said is that they would say something rather similar.
It appears that stereo types on both sides prevent 'a working together'.

And for those sitting on the fence right now i think it would be very difficult for them to judge which side of the fence to take!

There is convincing argument and research on both sides, very hard to decide what really is in the best interest of the lion.

Aaron, sorry i have not addressed your post but i knew i did not have the time right now. I will get back to it later though. Thank you for your response as always.

Hunters do not shoot unless given the green light by a PH.

The PH is the professional, they have the experience and the training and the responsibility.

Losing a hide for the hunter means they just lost $90,000+ A significant penalty in anyones book.

The industry would soon self correct this as that hunter would tell everyone about what happened on the various hunt reports negatively impacting the PH ability to get additional business (this happens regularly now).

On top of that the PH himself should face the possibility of losing his license.

Of course you don't want to pull a license on the first one.. but a pattern would warrant it.

Maybe the PH should be allowed a mulligan every 5 years or so. Last thing you want is to pull the most experienced guys from the field.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

If we don't try...we are certain to fail.

It takes money to do research and the LCTF is in the process of raising some just for this.

Tell the otherside to ante-up and HEED the UNBIASED portion of your quote.

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DRSS

Not sure which part of my quote was biased there?

I was not saying you were biased at all. I am saying that the majority of anti-hunters are biased.

I was asking you to get the other side (anti-hunting side) to put money for UNBIASED reasearch.