quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Tissues are solids ! They behave and function as solids, their state of matter is defined to the behaviour of solid matter !

Muscle, tendon, skin, blood vessels, heart brain and organ tissue, all solids, ...

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

Pray tell me, when last did you pour your steak into glass and drink it?

when is the last time you saw a steak shattere, alf? ever broken a heart, litterally?

we've all seen a liver slither, though ...

tought steak, to be a solid

:yuck



SSR

.

of course, if one takes a steak, and hits it with a hammer.. what happens? it sloshes and moves about, with some of the tiddue breaking down...

what happens if you hit, say, a 3/4" granite plate, 12"x12", with a ballpeen hammer?

something LIKE what happens if you take the steak, and hold it at 20deg for a couple hours.. when it FREEZES into a solid...

raise the temp of granite to 1400c, it flows like honey ...

raise tissue to 1400c, it turns into gas.. and some trivial ammount of solid .... that solid we call ash...


or, as my wife calls it, a properly well done steak (barf)

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Jeffe:

Actually liver, spleen and solid organs subjected to stresses such as missile wounds fracture, they exhibit cracks in their structure and you can piece them together after the shot has passed !

yes, alf, fluid gels ... surface tension exceeded by force, can usually be rejoined.. however, you are now going after the edges .. we've all seen blood shot meat ...

but a shattered liver is a bunch of goo to be pushed back together, in a lining, and sewed up ... the connective tissues broken ...

but, of course, when the liver was shot, it reacted in WAVES, and quivered .. like fluid in a bag.. not like granite on a counter top.

and when's the last time you saw granite flow back togther?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:



or, as my wife calls it, a properly well done steak (barf)

Finally, some one else who appreciates properly cooked meat.



SSR

Alf,
let's make it easy...
is an orange a solid or a liquid, and why, according to physics.

at room temp, say, 72 deg through and through.. or 98.6, if you like

Seems like there is a lack of scientific reference material to the issue at hand.
Maybe a nice Phd project for a budding medical researcher.
-a half dozen light oil filled spagetti tubes
- closed one end , micro pressure sensor at the other.
-encased in ballistic gel
- have at with a 308W & see what the gauges show ( it may be positive pressure it may be negative pressure)
-repeat with a 30 cal gofast-whizzbanger & see what the pressure differences are ........if any.

We will either have significant hydraulic pressure transmission in the spagetti tubes or not.

We will either have a potential scenario of hydraulic shock to the internals of the brain
or a scenario of traumatic tissue damage & collapse from sensory overload .

- brain shutdown & concurrent instantaneous shutdown of all voluntary muscular function is the endemic self-protection response by the brain to sensory overload.

Re: cavitation effects on sensitive body organs.
- body organs are capable of withstanding modest external pressure, they have to be to be able to withstand normal body movement.
But
they do not normally experience modest rapid negative pressure ( other than primarily, lungs, heart, rectum & bladder).
The nerves in other highly sensitive organs react strongly to negative pressure.
Hence the sensory messages to the brain at bullet strike is the sum total of the traumatic tissue damage messages PLUS trauma signals from sensitive organs that have experienced the cavitation effect of the projectile passage nearby( despite no tissue damage to them ).

Plenty of evidence of the extreme pain experienced with human organs undergoing quite modest negative pressure events that cause NO tissue damage.

.........unfortunately we have not been able to talk to the game animals to find out what they are feeling........He He.

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
DenisB

It's all been done ! There are reams and reams of perfectly literature on the subject !

But off course it's a sin to read on AR !

As I have said before there is no instance on earth where our physical world is more misrepesented than in ballistics discussion especially on AR !

And now for the next installment.... comparing oranges to muscle !

But for those who think muscle is water:

You take a freshly cut steak, stick it on the counter, carefully place a bullet on it's surface and observe.

Now take a deep glass bowl of clear tap water place the very same bullet on the surface of water.... observe what happens.

I bet you the bullet is still sitting on the surface of the steak whilst that same bullet would have sunk to the bottom of the bowl, what is interesting is that if you observed closely you may even have seen little bubbles form around the bullet as it sank !

Once the bullet is at the bottom there is no indication of it's passage other than it displaced the water by it's own volume.

There is no hole, no bubbles nothing.... in terms of energy, the potential energy of the water rose ever so slightly.

The steak on the other hand is uneffected.....

What should happen if that bullet were shot form a gun, steak vs water..... same thing now if the velocity of the bullet is high enough to breech the steak surface the bullet would pass right through.... a hole would be left behind....... the water, still just water, no hole.......

Now I wonder why that is? Still think steak which is fluid..... methinks not !

alf, you might reread your posts when this deep in your cups.

place the bullet on glass, and tell me the effect in 24 hours? yet everyone knows that glass is a supercooled liquid, and not a solid. again, high school science (not even physics)...

relative densities of fluids have no relationship to them being fluids.. take your some bullet, and place it on a bowl of mercury... assuming its not disolved, the bullet will float on the mercury ...

"oh oh, but the bullet is denser than the steak" .. yep, sure is, but the surface tension of the cells (animal cells aint solids.. bio 101) exceeds the weight of the bullet... but i can stick my finger through a steak alf.. can't do that through, oh, nearly any other solid-at-room-temp-of the same thicknesss, now, can i?

just like your ranting about max pressure is somehow related to velocity, your position is just plain incorrect.. and abandoning a loosing position isn't embarassing. continuing to try to sweep away the tide, however, is.

hit water going fast enough, it also acts like a solid, don't it? relatively speaking... it crumples aluminum and steel, when hit fast enough...

but you are, of course, not arguing the center point, rather dancing around, trying to prove your pet theories.. in this case, its annoying.

(now go ahead and whine about being picked on)

of course we can go back to the old joke about the chicken cannon and the brits testing windscreens with one.

they complained that every, repeat EVERY windscreen tested failed the chicken cannon test.. (300? MPh impact)

they wrote nasa, complaining of their failures, and how could any aircraft fly so fast and expect to withstand a bird strike.

nasa reviewed their methodologies, and rpelied with a 3 word, 1 sentence bit of advice

"thaw the chickens"

.

Of course its real. One of the best pics I like is from the GSCustom website where they shoot a 270 something or other into a 55 gallon water barrel and the barrel get knocked around pretty good. I couldnt find the pic of course.

Slow motion impacts on game show some pretty good instances as well such as lungshots where you see the whole ribcage shake on impact.

Only thing is critters are tough and many can take a good blow.


I once tried to shoot a snowshoe hare in the head with my 300 win mag. The bunny dropped at the shot and I threw it in my pickup bed and drove home. When I went to clean it there was not a break in the skin just a bruise on its neck. I am guessing the bullet just got really close and he must've been killed by air pressure.


What critters cant take much off is all their blood ending up on the ground from a good wound channel.

---------------------

It isnt energy that kills, its holes.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
DenisB

It's all been done ! There are reams and reams of perfectly literature on the subject !

But off course it's a sin to read on AR !

Good Man, your reference material must be better than mine...............got a link a bloke can take a read of.............regarding Vapo's question of hydraulic shock transmitting via blood vessels to the brain sufficient to cause cerebral failure.

A good reference document on the subject will answer Vapo's question with reasonable certainty ............its what the whole thread has been searching for methinks.

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
...there is no instance on earth where our physical world is more misrepesented than in ballistics discussion especially on AR !...

I will totally agree with that statment "if" a person is speaking about alf's and warrior's posts.

And NO, Human Wound studies still have nothing to do with Game - never have, never will. Anyone that thinks so has no worthwhile Hunting Experience. Pitiful and Pathetic!!!

This seems to be a useful resource that may help this argument a bit...

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-...istics/wounding.html

.

quote:

Originally posted by Finman:
This seems to be a useful resource that may help this argument a bit...

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-...istics/wounding.html

Finman, that helped me. I've posted that study before for the bullet testings it contained but never read the section on energy. We should call it Hydrodynamic shock, it does happen but it's not a reliable. Therefore we should try to stick an appropriate sized/constructed bullet at an appropriate velocity for expansion in to the vital organs of the animal we are hunting instead of hitting the animal in the ass knowing our super magnum will produce enough hydrodynamic shock to stop their heart. I think I get it now.

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
We should call it Hydrodynamic shock, it does happen but it's not a reliable. Therefore we should try to stick an appropriate sized/constructed bullet at an appropriate velocity for expansion in to the vital organs of the animal we are hunting ....

5 pages of teeth grinding and hair splitting summarised in 2 good, thoughtful sentences.

Dean

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
we should try to stick an appropriate sized/constructed bullet at an appropriate velocity for expansion in to the vital organs of the animal we are hunting instead of hitting the animal in the ass knowing our super magnum will produce enough hydrodynamic shock to stop their heart. I think I get it now.

....some things never change do they....Scott has nailed it yet once again!

quote:

or, as my wife calls it, a properly well done steak (barf)

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Alf,
let's make it easy...
is an orange a solid or a liquid, and why, according to physics.

at room temp, say, 72 deg through and through.. or 98.6, if you like

or ballastics gelatin? which is "designed" to simulate tissue ... is that a solid, Alf?

.

Sir,
lots of words to dodge the question.. this isn't a discussion of testing media. your opinion on bullet testing media has been profoundly stated, a multitude of times as "."

is BG a solid or a liquid?

Doc M, aka Michael458 will have a few answers about the validity of test media vis a vie animal tissue when he returns from Africa. I would hope no one doubts Michaels objectivity.

SSR

quote:

I will totally agree with that statment "if" a person is speaking about alf's and warrior's posts.

It has been submitted that Hot Core shot a 1000+ elk and if I am not mistaken a good 50% died of shock and most all was done with a .243. However Hot Core refuses to write an essay about it, it will remain a story that will be told next to campfire and it will become folklore that will be told from generation to generation.

Hot Core does not read nor consult the work of others - it is all original and self fabricated.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

quote:

I will totally agree with that statment "if" a person is speaking about alf's and warrior's posts.

It has been submitted that Hot Core shot a 1000+ elk and if I am not mistaken a good 50% died of shock and most all was done with a .243. However Hot Core refuses to write an essay about it, it will remain a story that will be told next to campfire and it will become folklore that will be told from generation to generation.

Hot Core does not read nor consult the work of others - it is all original and self fabricated.

Warrior

silly attempts at character assasination on an utterly unrelated topic.

Chris,
what's your opinion on ballistic gel being a solid or liquid ?

Jeffe,

Two things - Jeffe is trashing me and Alf as far as he goes and does it with regular monotony. He never gives proper answers and talks crap most of the time in debates, styfling discussions and not contributing on the subject under discussion. When challenged by various posters here on AR with a good 20 questions re his elk hunting, he does not respond. So that is that.

Then the question of ballistic gelitin, I cannot answer it any better than Alf. I cannot add anything on the nature of this compound material as I have never used it in any way or form. I will listen to those that know more about it than me.

What is clear though is that we can see that a felsh wound looks different to a gelatine wound. With regard to the behaviour of flesh or muscle, I will bow to the opinions of medical doctors who studied this discipline.

Warrior

PS: Snippet from Larry Gibson:

"It's nice to see numerous objections to someone being "slammed". However I have to wonder where all of you who are mentioning it on this thread are when Hot Core goes off on his personal rants and insults on other threads. All of us here have been insulted for several years now in not only similar but worse ways by Hot Core. He makes absolutely rediculous claims of his hunting, shooting abilities and reloading practices as "advise" to other posters which most often are misleading and even dangerous. When some, anyone, attempts to correct his information or disagree with him he goes off on personal attacks and insults."

http://forums.accuratereloadin...051046431#3051046431

First off: Glass is not a liquid.
http://dwb4.unl.edu/Chem/CHEM8...bderksen/florin.html

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
in other words, sir, BONES are solids.. muscle and organs ARENT.. they are closer to jelly than solid.. and jelly aint solid, sir.

muscle, sir, could not function, if a solid. they couldn't contract.

physics, not make believe.

It is not make-believe.

Alf is right. Our organs are Organic solids…

quote:

Single crystalline form of solid Insulin.Solid is one of the three classical states of matter (the others being gas and liquid). It is characterized by structural rigidity and resistance to changes of shape or volume.

Resistance doesn’t mean an item has to feel rock hard to be classified as a solid.

quote:

Unlike a liquid, a solid object does not flow to take on the shape of its container,

Put any of our organs into any container, they’ll settle around a bit, and depending how elastic they are they may get close, but they do not take on the containers shape!

Just because something is elastic doesn’t mean it’s not a solid!

quote:

nor does it expand to fill the entire volume available to it like a gas does.

I shouldn’t have to spell this one out…

quote:

The atoms in a solid are tightly bound to each other, either in a regular geometric lattice (crystalline solids, which include metals and ordinary water ice) or irregularly (an amorphous solid such as common window glass).

Our organs are considered solids! They have a definite shape!

Our organs are very elastic. And our organs do contain a lot of liquid in them.

That’s why you get a “ripple” effect when they are hit.

It’s the same reason people say organs are “liquefied” when an animal has been shot. The animal’s organ has been put through the blender-like effect of a high velocity expanding bullet, and pulped organ is the result.

The original primer may be too dense for some – so I found something a little more basic:

quote:

States of Matter
— A lesson plan based on the book Building Foundations of Scientific Understanding that is suitable for preK-2nd grade.

Lesson A-2: Solids, Liquids, Gases

Objective: To have the student(s) understand and classify the three states of matter (solid, liquid, and gas).

Discussion Notes:
Solids have a distinct size and shape. They do not need containers, but they can have many different properties (ie. hard, soft, flexible, brittle).

Liquids flow (slowly or quickly) and hence, they must be kept in containers.
Once the perfume has been sprayed, the particles of the perfume become a gas and can be detected by our noses in the air.

You may also wish to mention that some gases are poisonous and if they smell
something strange, then they should seek fresh air and tell an adult.

Our bodies are a complex combination of all the states of matter. We breathe in air (gas), we circulate blood (liquid), and our organs are solids

quote:

Originally posted by TwoZero:
Just because something is elastic doesn’t mean it’s not a solid!


quote:

nor does it expand to fill the entire volume available to it like a gas does.


I shouldn’t have to spell this one out…

so, water, 100% of the space in a ziplock bag, suddenly becomes a solid? it is only slightly elastic, and slightly shape conforming. like, say, a muscle or liver... but there's no magic converting it into a solid.

a steak, in most containers, at room temp, WILL FLOW into the shape of the container, within its elastic tissue boundaries... not completely filling it, of course.. but, then again, neither does water, at a small scale. there is always surface tension, keeping it from being entirely level. this isn't frog hair, its observable fact.

So, either water in a ziplock is magically transformed into a SOLID (which means ICE in the case of water) or what?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
so, water, 100% of the space in a ziplock bag, suddenly becomes a solid? it is only slightly elastic, and slightly shape conforming. like, say, a muscle or liver... but there's no magic converting it into a solid.

The zip-lock bag is a solid? Yes? It may contain a lot of liquid and be elastic but the zip-lock bag itself is a solid! Just because something may contain a lot of liquid does not make it a liquid!

Think of our organs more in terms of a sponge. A dry sponge is a solid, a very elastic and absorbent solid, it has a definite shape, and no one would hold a sponge in their hand and say it is not a solid.

Now you soak that sponge with water… does it become a liquid? No!

It is still a sponge, just because it is able to contain a great deal of liquid has nothing to do whether or not the sponge is solid.

And so it is with our organs. Which contain lots of liquid, but are not liquids.

quote:

a steak, in most containers, at room temp, WILL FLOW into the shape of the container, within its elastic tissue boundaries... not completely filling it, of course.. but, then again, neither does water, at a small scale. there is always surface tension, keeping it from being entirely level. this isn't frog hair, its observable fact.

First: surface tension in liquids and elasticity of solids are two entirely separate things.

You place water in a container it will flow to fill that container. Put steak in a cup and it does not “flow” to fill that container. Oh, you may really pack it in and get close, but that is just the steak being elastic, it is not flowing like a liquid. And when you pull the steak out it retains the same definite shape that it had before it went into the cup.

Liquids do not retain their shape outside of specific containers. Steak is elastic, but it most certainly does not flow like water when put into a container, its’ observable fact.

quote:

So, either water in a ziplock is magically transformed into a SOLID (which means ICE in the case of water) or what?

At the risk of sounding redundant: The water is a liquid and the zip-lock bag a solid. Just because the zip-lock bag may be able to contain a great deal of liquid, has no bearing on its own solid state.

See, simple.

quote:

Originally posted by 33806whelen:



People do seem to explode when hit with 50cal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2kNeNd0Qj8&NR=1

That's a video of rockchucks being shot.
Assertions to the contrary have been comprehensively refuted.

quote:

Originally posted by Oddbod:

quote:

Originally posted by 33806whelen:



People do seem to explode when hit with 50cal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2kNeNd0Qj8&NR=1

That's a video of rockchucks being shot.
Assertions to the contrary have been comprehensively refuted.

I saw them exploding in the latest Rambo movie so it must be true.

quote:

Originally posted by TwoZero:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
so, water, 100% of the space in a ziplock bag, suddenly becomes a solid? it is only slightly elastic, and slightly shape conforming. like, say, a muscle or liver... but there's no magic converting it into a solid.

The zip-lock bag is a solid? Yes?..
See, simple.

sir, i didn't ask you if the ziplock bag was a solid, i asked does the water suddenly become a solid, because it is in a firmly filled ziplock bag.

please don't try to force your agenda over the question ..

we'll get to the science, both phyics and biology, after we come to terms with a basic glossary.

so, you agree that the water is still a liquid.. theres likely no need to discuss that LDPE is NOT, in phyics sense, a solid, rather a super cooled liquid...

now, if we had, say a MILLION ziplock bags and water, duct taped together, would the water still be a liquid?

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:

quote:

Originally posted by Oddbod:

quote:

Originally posted by 33806whelen:



People do seem to explode when hit with 50cal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2kNeNd0Qj8&NR=1

That's a video of rockchucks being shot.
Assertions to the contrary have been comprehensively refuted.

I saw them exploding in the latest Rambo movie so it must be true.

This one probably does a much better job of explaining it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...0ykU&feature=related

I hope it helps.

Terry

This is likely to have no import at all to ballistics, but when talking about solids, liquids, and flow, I still find it interesting.


In Athens, Greece, there are structures where a "solid" slab of marble was set horizontally atop two supporting vertical beams (pillars) of stone several thousand years ago.

A careful examination of those horizontal marble slabs today will show that the marble slabs now surround the tops of the vertical supporting stone pillars by a very discernable part of an inch.

The marble was not hewn, sawed, chisled, carved, dissolved, eroded, or otherwise mechanically fitted to the supporting stone pillars before or after being laid there.

What happened? Plainly and simply, over time the marble slab flowed down and around part of the supporting pillars. Solids DO flow, it just takes ample time for them to do so, as they do not flow nearly as rapidly as liquids or gases. That is basic physics, as taught in almost every university introductory science series. Little or nothing outside a black hole is absolutely "solid".

Like I said, not important to the learned discussion here, but interesting, none-the-less.

Margarine is a much more easily observed example. It is not a gas. It is not a liquid. But set it on a counter top with part of the margarine block over the edge and observe it for a day or two. It will markedly slump downward where not supported by the countertop. That slump is an example of a solid flowing under the force of gravity. If you push it down with your hand, it will do so more rapidly yet. Imagine what would happen if you smacked the unsupported portion downward with a few thousand foot pounds of energy......

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Margarine

is most certainly a liquid, AC... its a fatty oil that is partially hydrogenated, thereby thickening it.. but it has NO characteristics of a solid, other than it flows slowly ... so does cold honey.. and like honey, it flows faster the hotter it gets... but so does 10w30 ... and no one i their right mind would argue that motor oil is a liquid..