quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I think that pic is of a road kill hit by a car.

It was posted on another of our forums a while back and the rear legs were included in the pic. They were broken and twisted.

I think you're thinking about this one

Yep, that's the one!

When a .50cal sniper round hits at 1000yds it has less than 2000fps and no fragmenting bullet, yet bodies still explode into pieces much like a varmint does when hit with an ultra high vel. high fragmenting bullet.

I'll take your word for it. I've never witnessed anything like that, thank goodness. I've seen it happen in movies but I've seen shotguns knock people through walls in movies as well.

I think what is being observed when animals in the deer size class are dropped instantly to the shot with light high velocity bullets has nothing to do with hydrostatic shock. I think it is what you get on the occassion that these light weight exploding bullets actually make it into the vitals of the animal. I have observed many deer shot on the shoulder with rifles in the .224 to .243 class that ran off with a huge surface wound. I have also observed deer shot behind the shoulder with the same bullet die an instant death. It has been my observation that if the bullet gets into the vitals you get the same explosive effect as the bullet displays when it blows apart on the surface, but it occurrs inside doing he same type damage to the vital organs that you see on those massive surface wounds. I live in an area with many large farms and in addition to seasonal deer hunting in the fall I kill many deer each year on crop damage permits for the local farmers. I couldn't tell you how many deer I have shot the last 40 years because I haven't actually kept track until the last 8 years. Over this time I have killed 76 deer which has given me the opportunity to test many different calibers and load combinations to evaluate the effects of rifle caliber,velocity, and bullet design as it relates to shooting animals in this class. I have made up my mind that the smaller calibers should be used for what they are designed for which is varmit hunting. There is no doubt they will kill deer but everything has to go right and I think we all agree that we own it to the animal to kill it as quickly as possible. For quick consistent kills I think your bullet diameter, bullet contruction and velocity all have to work together to acheive that goal. Obviously any medium weight 30 caliber or larger bullet placed on the shoulder that has sufficent penetration to break both front shoulders will cause instant death. I will confine my observations to shots made behind the shoulder which would be a better scenario for hydrosatic shock to occur, if it exists. I will use the .308 calibers I have used extensively as an example. I have shot 38 deer with the 30-06 and 300 H&H the last few years with different bullets. The 165 BTSP at about 2800-2900 fps seems just about ideal. You get consistent instant kills and on chest shots the bullets are usually recovered in the hind quarters. 150 and 180 grain bullets also work very well in the 2800-3000 fps range. I have also used 220 grain bullets at 2400 FPS and these bullets punch right through the deer without expanding at all. The deer, if hit behind the shoulder will usually run 100 to 150 yards before falling. On one occassion I shot a deer twice with a 300 H&H double. When the first shot was fired the deer ran about 150 yards at an angle toward me. It then stopped about 75 yards away and I shot again. I thought I missed it until it fell over as I was reloading. Both these bullets were right behind the shoulder. I have had the same type of reliable one shot kills with the .270,7MM Mag, Various 300 Mags, 8MM Rem, and 338 Winchester with the bullets that worked in the 2800-3000 fps range. I have also observed, as Jeffeosso put it, that it really doesn't matter once you get to the big bores. But I have noticed a kind of odd occurence right at the 9.3x62 and .375 H&H level. Every deer I have shot with the 9.3x62 and 9.3x74R with the 286 PSP bullet has been instant kills. Every deer I have shot with the .375 H&H with 270 grain PSP have been instant kills. I have however had several deer run 50 or 60 yards when hit with the .375 H&H using 300 grain RN bullets. All I can figure is it must be the same situation as I have observed with the 220 grain bullets in the 300 H&H with the deer just not offereing enough resistance to expand the bullet. This is however quite a difference in how the deer acts when initally hit the the 300 grain from the 375 as opposed to the 220 grain from the 300 H&H. I have shot several deer with the 450-400 3" Jeffery 400 Grain RN 2050 fps, .416 Rigby 400 grain RN 2400 fps, 458 Winchester mag. 500 grain RN 2050 fps, 500 Nitro 570 grain RN 2050 fps and all have been instant kills. It appears to me that once you reach this bore diameter all these calibers have sufficent penetration and velocity is not as important to one shot kills as it is in the lighter calibers. So does hydrostatic shock really exist? Reliability is the key I think and there is a corrolation between bullet diameter, bullet construction and velocity which causes consistent one shot kills not some magical phenomenon.

I wanted to clarify one part of the post I just made. I talked about the consistent instant kills with the 165 grain bullet at 2800-2900 fps. That should have read consistent one shot kills resulting in instant death or the deer jumping straight in the air upon receiving the bullet and running 20 or 25 yards before falling down. You sometime get to many thoughts going on in a post as long as this was and leave out important details.

quote:

Of course, I guess it's possible there could have been some tampering with the fur as they were checking the wound.

IIRC the antelope fell onto the wound side and was dragged on the grass for a bit. The fellow who posted that pic and told his story got flamed for it, being accused of lying and in the end the thread was locked. I thought his story was feasable and kept the picture. I haven't seen all that much but some of it is baffling - like the goat that had it's entire guts blown out of its body by a chest shot from a 22-250! No jello - just two semi-attached goat body parts. The skin was split right open.

And a cat sized critter with a fist sized hole blown through its chest by a non-expanding bullet that crawls away! Or tried to - it took a second shot in the head from up close. That was with a 223 using 52gr Hornady target bullets. Soft point bullets made jello of such critter interiors.

I shot one critter on the nose with a soft point 223 and half the face blew away but the remaining half showed the distinc shock wave pattern right up through its brain. The chest was jello.

Another critter a bit heavier in construction to a cat got hit on the point of its jaw with the boolit - a 180gr 303 Brit RN - and exited through a butt cheak had both fore-arm bones broken by the shock or pressure wave and the skin peeled back over the shoulders with the split beginning on the lower jaw.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I think that pic is of a road kill hit by a car.

It was posted on another of our forums a while back and the rear legs were included in the pic. They were broken and twisted.

I think you're thinking about this one

Yep, that's the one!

That photo was posted on American big game hunting forum on a thread about shooting a deer at 493 yards with a 6.5 Grendel.....remember it?

Another in a merry-go-round thread!!!!

quote:

That photo was posted on American big game hunting forum on a thread about shooting a deer at 493 yards with a 6.5 Grendel.....remember it? animal

Another in a merry-go-round thread!!!! rotflmo

A 6.5 Grendel???

So I suppose to keep the ball rolling we should all just copy the image and post it elsewhere with any story we want.
"I took this here deer with my .32 ACP!"

quote:

"I took this here deer with my .32 ACP!"
hilbily

Yuppers.....now you're talking! All you have to do now is include the range over three hundred and walla.....you've captured the entire thread!

Apples and oranges.

Animal going down immediately- head/neck & spine shots- because of CNS damage.

Solids/fluids ie tissue transmits energy better than air. Ultrasound is the prime example- doesn't work in air (lungs, bowel), works great in fluids/tissues (and metals), etc.

You've seen the ubiquitous rain drop on water making waves eminating in all directions from the POI.

The body is made up of 99% H20 and will propogate "waves" in a similar fashion til the E is absorbed. I guess that is the theory for shockwaves, so I guess they do exist.

As far as high vel vs. low vel..ain't gonna touch that.....shot placement is key.

Yes its real,

but not on every shot with every cartridge.

When I shoot a praire dog with a 110 gr 270 I can show hydro-shock.

When I shoot a buffalo with a 150 gr 270 I cannot.

One could be said to be killed by shock, the other by trauma to heart-lungs or CNS.

so as much as some want to --the answer is:

IT DEPENDS

Hydro-shock is real but doesnt always play a part in the killing shot.

SSR

There seems to be a lot of confusion on here in regard to the terms being used.
Hydrostatic shock is the term used for describing what a bullet does in high water content media, such as animal tissue, and to a lesser extent in ballistic media. The best way to describe what's actually happening is a 'cavitation wave' being imparted by the bullet as it mushrooms into the tissue in all directions, even behind the bullet. The only way this happens is due to the velocity and rate of expansion, this is why most wound channels look like a trumpet shape. True, FMJ's still impart hydrostatic shock, just to a lesser degree.
Hydrostatic shock is very different to the often termed "Hydraulic Shot", which I believe is a fallacy. The notion that a bullet can 'transfer' it's energy along nerves and the like is ridiculous, BUT, if a bullet strikes very close to a nerve bundle or the spinal cord, then instantaneous death can occur because the very needed parts to life are destroyed. I have witnessed this on smaller game often, but only a handful of times on larger deer sized game.

Every bullet imparts hydrostatic shock to animal tissue, this is a fact. Hydraulic shots are a totally different animal.

Cheers.

I have, for a long time, believed in the reality of hydrostatic shock, based upon personal experience shooting whitetail deer with bows and rifles.

I have personally shot many deer with a rifle and a bow. A high powered rifle almost always does more (much more) tissue damage than an arrow tipped with a wide-cutting broad head (its diameter much larger than the diameter of the expanded bullet). How does one account for that extra tissue damage--I've attributed it to hydrostatic shock.

The thing that troubles me most, though, is there are sound, scientific arguments against hydrostatic shock. The article that was mentioned in support of hydrostatic shock, has a section dealing with the counter arguments--read the complete article and the footnotes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

For now, I'm going to stand with the data in support of hydrostatic shock and my own personal experience that says, "Yeah, it certainly is real!" (However, I surely wouldn't want to stake my life on whether I'm right or wrong on this issue.)

Good post Red C.

Thanks for the link. What they say confirms my own observations. The counter arguments seem a little dodgy to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:

quote:

Originally posted by WhatThe:

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:

quote:

Originally posted by WhatThe:

quote:

Originally posted by boltshooter:
Check out Woodleigh bullets web site; they describe their "Hydrostatically Stabilised" bullets and their effect on game.

"WhatThe" you seem to have a scientific grasp of these things. How much veracity in the Woodleigh pitch?

(Hunters who have used these bullets say they are very effective).

I've never touted my credentials and came here to offer what I know and learn what I don't. But yes I do have a grasp of many of these issues having done it for a living for over 30 years as an Independent ballistics engineer providing design support, testing, proving and terminal analysis. A slight suspicion but not completely sure what is meant by "the Woodleigh pitch" But if has to do with SD, I'm done,turned over twice, boiled, broiled and twice baked with that subject....

I promise I won't mention S.D......


May I ask you, what do think the physiological phenomenon is that results in chest shot deer occasionally dropping to the shot?

I have a biological sciences background myself and have talked about this with physician friends at length.

Like yourself I don't accept a fluid dynamics based model based on looking at the animal as incompressible bag of water but I can't deny that sometimes deer drop to a chest without so much as a twitch and in those cases I can't see any CNS damage. I also note that this happens more often with higher velocity and more frangible bullets.

I cannot explain it myself, but personally suspect it to be no more than violent tissue displacement on to the vertebra from the inside leading to stunning followed by rapid death from loss of blood pressure. From the outside it looks like the animals drops and dies without a twitch.

Forensic analysis provides some clues but complete and instantaneous sequential system shut down has always been a bit of a mystery. As you indicated, high velocity fragmenting projectiles appear to be more effective or rather supports a higher percentage of instance. It's almost impossible to describe the damage a high velocity fragmenting projectile does on soft tissue. The destruction is simply devastating. My belief falls in line with your theory and has for many years. We know and understand both the mechanics and dynamics of wounds based on data that can assist in the requirements for lethality in terminal performance. But with any biologic study, there is always a margin of error based on the fact that "not all are the same". We have always called this a "variable influence" and allowed a +/- margin based on statistical data. But to add some light to your inquiry, I also believe that such a violent event that distorts and displaces tissue, bones and whole organs that it must trigger a rapid and sequential system shut down rendering the animal with an immediate fatal event with only post cellular activity to non disrupted nerve cells and nerve receptors. Off the top of my head I can't remember the book or author but in any event, there was an English physician that studied those doomed to the guillotine. Without a doubt biologic shock set in immediately and in many cases, signs of biologic shock were present prior to execution of the doomed. However, the heart continued to pump while the lungs expanded for several seconds which discounted post biologic shock. The severed head on the other hand showed the eyes twitching/rolling and nostril flaring on some victims. Now there's one for you, what is the biological cause of death? This was his point, we don't know. Sure we know he bled to death, but with shock not being present and neural receptors being severed, what are the mechanics of failure? Even though no anatomical disruption accrued instant death was a result of dismemberment regardless of the systems ability to maintain function (at least longer than a few seconds). We know that cerebral transmission from the brain is not required to maintain life support as evidence in brain damaged, coma stricken and newborns without a brain. I'm glad I don't need to write a report on that! In my belief, God wrote and holds the schematic as well as publishing rights to everything biologic. Medical sciences have only statistics and is not nor ever will be an "exact science" Hence term "practice". Why does aspirin work for some and not others? This is really the question.

Thank you for taking the trouble to reply WT, much appreciated.

I'm not sure who you the worthy Doctor is you refer to either but can well imagine the Guillotine causing the sort of pre-event physiological shock you talk about but also not the instant "lights out" of the sort of shot on deer we are talking about.

Pysician's notes from an examination of a freshly decapitated head from the guillotine

So it seems that a clean and efficient decapitation, ie traumatic detachment of the CNS and cardiac systems from the brain and the body, does not cause what we call in the UK "spark out", or perhaps that it does not do so reliably even though whatever our definition of death may be decapitation is as close to actually dead as makes no odds.

This does play into our favour because we are contending that the effect is a function of high velocity expanding projectiles rather than slow, high integrity ones.

The question of what actually is death is a good one, the answers can range between no pulse to end of residual cellular activity ie. post rigor mortis. For my purposes I want no heart activity and no eye blink reaction.

I think that what we do know is this:

1. Animals are killed either by loss of BP leading to unconciousness and death or interruption of fundamental CNS function ie a brain or high neck shot.

2. High velocity and frangibility are characteristics that predicate towards the effect we are talking about, low velocity and projectile integrity predicate against it.

Until we know what the effect is, I'm not sure we cab go about using it, one way or another.

I am wondering that in the same way a sharp blow to the jaw can knock a man unconscious a sharp blow to the upper spine may just transmit enough energy to the brain stem to cause unconsciousness, with the intrinsic damage to the vascular system in the chest cavity to ensure it never wakes up. However, I have anecdotal data that does not fit this model.

Two examples and inspired by Geedubya's noble example of telling it how it is two deer stick out in my mind.

One was a completely unsuspecting Fallow buck badly shot ( through the liver ) with a 308 150 grain spitzer bullet at about 2800 at 70 yards. I was in complete cover and shooting a moderated rifle the deer remained completely oblivious of what had happened. That deer's back end dropped to the ground at the shot but it struggled back up and staggered about for a minute or two until I was able to get a second shot into the back of his neck and finish the job.

Gutting him revealed utter destruction of the liver and kidneys, together with visible damage to the vertebra and spinal cord above them. That deer was going nowhere but despite looking like raspberry trifle on the inside did not DRT, as you guys say.

The second was a muntjac buck ( a very small but actually quite tough deer weighing up to let's say thirty pounds or so ) at 210 yards with a controlled expansion flat point 180 grain bullet started at about 2500 fps. This deer was hit also in the liver, ie a bit too far back, but did one circle on the spot and dropped. Through the binos I saw it give one twitch and then relax. Post mortem revealed a big hole in the liver ( and unfortunately the guts ) but none of the skeletal damage of the previous shot.

Now the point of illustrating these opposite ends of the spectrum is that the effect seems to be able to occour sometimes anyway, despite low velocity and hard bullets, and not when one would expect it too!

I think we are on the right path but need to consider, or perhaps more accurately determine, the variables at work. Some of it is certainly a function of variability in organisms in the first place but I suspect that there is more to be learned from more careful observation.

If a physician with access to a PET scanner could scan the brain stem of a deer that has happened to drop to the shot in the manner we describe, that would be an excellent start.

You have touched upon many mysteries that challenge those with interest on a daily basis. The mechanics of death in terms of renal failure is simple to understand given the mechanism. However, at the same time can elude with no practical evidence as to the primary failure. I.E. we know that; for the most part cancer destroys, disrupts and even consumes normal and vital cells of all classifications. So cellular damage is the primary dynamic. Then dependent tissue becomes damaged, the secondary dynamic. Then soft tissue organs, then vital organs, then possible infection, pneumonia, congestive heart failure and finally death. There are a few others in there but for illustration you get my meaning especially with your bio back-round. The problem is applying what we know to what we don't know in wounds and/or acute and severe trauma. I had a professor tell me at one time that death was established when the subject was beyond resuscitation. While that is a simple answer (and funny too), it's a fact and I would be pressed to challenge it in debate other than challenge the establishment of what is used for a base in "resurrection". I believe that most accept the simple principles we all know and write them off as "I dropped him in his tracks" or "I must have winged him because he ran off" and will go even further by saying "well I didn't do enough organ damage" etc,. When someone passes in an auto accident you always hear, "well he/she hit their head on the front window rendering him/her unconscious and simply lost to much blood to be saved. This is acceptable and for the most part correct but many other events accrued as well. I guess when we know all of them, understand them and their role, we can save a lot more lives? But just what triggers a complete "acute" system failure will perhaps always be a bio mystery?

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
When I shoot a praire dog with a 110 gr 270 I can show hydro-shock.

When I shoot a buffalo with a 150 gr 270 I cannot. ...

But..., if a relatively Proportional Amount of Energy and Sectional Density(from a properly Designed "Lead" containing Bullet) were applied to the Buffalo as was the P-Dog, the results would be quite similar.

quote:

The second was a muntjac buck ( a very small but actually quite tough deer weighing up to let's say thirty pounds or so ) at 210 yards with a controlled expansion flat point 180 grain bullet started at about 2500 fps

Graduates of "TEANCUM's School of Deer Hunting" are shaking their heads right now

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
When I shoot a praire dog with a 110 gr 270 I can show hydro-shock.

When I shoot a buffalo with a 150 gr 270 I cannot. ...

But..., if a relatively Proportional Amount of Energy and Sectional Density(from a properly Designed "Lead" containing Bullet) were applied to the Buffalo as was the P-Dog, the results would be quite similar.

Absolutely true:

But I aint pulling the trigger on that sucker---



SSR

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Graduates of "TEANCUM's School of Deer Hunting" are shaking their heads right now

I't good to start the day with humor.

Thanks for that one RC.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Graduates of "TEANCUM's School of Deer Hunting" are shaking their heads right now

Hey Cross L, An M-79 will provide magical Energy, Sectional Density and down right for Un-Zipping an Elephant being ridden in an attempt to stomp on JarHeads.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
The term comes up regularly.....I've seen deer knocked down immediately and after a few seconds get up and run off....is this from hydrostatic shock temporarily blocking out the brain?

I realize this is a bit late to , but..., would that be the same or similar to a Hydraulic Energy Transferance?

quote:

Does Hydrostatic shock play a roll in very large game such as ele?

It does with an M-79.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Graduates of "TEANCUM's School of Deer Hunting" are shaking their heads right now

Hey Cross L, An M-79 will provide magical Energy, Sectional Density and down right for Un-Zipping an Elephant being ridden in an attempt to stomp on JarHeads.

We want a hunt report,with pics





SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
When a .50cal sniper round hits at 1000yds it has less than 2000fps and no fragmenting bullet, yet bodies still explode into pieces much like a varmint does when hit with an ultra high vel. high fragmenting bullet.

No they don't trax.
You believe that crap on youtube?

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
We want a hunt report,with pics ..

Sure would have been nice to have some - BUT - none exist that I am aware of.

We were on a small Sweep through a portion of SE Asia and a herd of people in Black Pajamas apparently resented us being there for some reason. Then here one came atop an Elephant, with obvious intent to try and hurt a few MARINES.

Unfortunately for the Elephant and the guy in Pajamas, we were carrying Adequate Cartridges for the situation(even though we had not anticipated it).

Extensive Energy Transference from the M-79 calmed the situation right down. And a thunderous round of Applause from the M-16s, M-14s and a BMG calmed the Pajama folks down - way down.

Real quiet after that which was due inpart to not being able to hear anything for awhile.

Thanks Hot Core,

Yep , seems to illustrate the point, Sounds like abit of a CF, just as glad I wasnt there.

You gotta admit it would be a hell of a hunt report if slightly politically incorrect.

Thanks again

SSR

quote:

You have touched upon many mysteries that challenge those with interest on a daily basis. The mechanics of death in terms of renal failure is simple to understand given the mechanism. However, at the same time can elude with no practical evidence as to the primary failure. I.E. we know that; for the most part cancer destroys, disrupts and even consumes normal and vital cells of all classifications. So cellular damage is the primary dynamic. Then dependent tissue becomes damaged, the secondary dynamic. Then soft tissue organs, then vital organs, then possible infection, pneumonia, congestive heart failure and finally death. There are a few others in there but for illustration you get my meaning especially with your bio back-round. The problem is applying what we know to what we don't know in wounds and/or acute and severe trauma. I had a professor tell me at one time that death was established when the subject was beyond resuscitation. While that is a simple answer (and funny too), it's a fact and I would be pressed to challenge it in debate other than challenge the establishment of what is used for a base in "resurrection". I believe that most accept the simple principles we all know and write them off as "I dropped him in his tracks" or "I must have winged him because he ran off" and will go even further by saying "well I didn't do enough organ damage" etc,. When someone passes in an auto accident you always hear, "well he/she hit their head on the front window rendering him/her unconscious and simply lost to much blood to be saved. This is acceptable and for the most part correct but many other events accrued as well. I guess when we know all of them, understand them and their role, we can save a lot more lives? But just what triggers a complete "acute" system failure will perhaps always be a bio mystery?

Hi WT,

Interesting stuff indeed, I personally avoid the question altogether by defining dead as sitting still long enough for me to gralloch!

Joking aside, I say this mainly because I have had deer that have dropped to the shot, possibly a "shock" effect but not in my view desirable, but getting up again.

I think then what we have to do is define exactly the phenomenon, that we all seem to be able to recognise if quite characterise, and ask for experiences.

I'll get the ball rolling by asking if there is general consensus on which or any of the following events characterises the effect we are talking about:

1. A non-CNS transecting shot to a game animal that results in the the animal dropping to the shot but being able to get back up if given time.

2. A non-CNS transecting shot to a game animal that results in the the animal dropping to the shot and not moving in terms of position until death the onset of which is expected to be broadly the same as any other lethal shot of similar placement. The animals kicks out and make the normal movements associated with the same.

3. A non-CNS transecting shot to a game animal that results in the animal dropping to the shot and the animal appearing to expire without a twitch. The animal acts like a high neck or brain shot animal in other words.


One can then take a position and frame the, hopefully expected, accounts of hunting within those parameters. I hope to have covered the possible options, inasmuch as can be attributed to "shock" effects.

Personally I have seem all three options and am not sure it is a function of shock excpet in cases where a large calibre is used for shooting small game.

As others have pointed out if you want to blow something apart, there "ain't no substitute for cubes" as they say.

Myself, I suspect that in those cases where I could attribute what I am seeing to shock, I rather instead think that on for example a chest shot on a deer the zone temporal cavity of the bullet could overlap with CNS structures in the spine and cause the dropping effect. I say this after shooting a dozen or so Muntjac, small 30 pound deer, broadside through the chest with my 30.06 and having each one fall over on the spot with a little twitch or nothing at all. Those muntjac aren't blown apart like groundhogs, but they are as dead as door nails in the time it takes to walk ten paces.

On the basis of a few dozen Fallow deer, up to 250 lbs, I only seem to get them dropping to the shot if I stray forward on to the shoulder or high on to the scapula. In fact the first year I shot deer, a couple of dozen beasts, I didn't have a single heart shot deer that did not run some short distance before dropping dead. I was reading about all of the "DRT"s the guys on the forums were talking about and scratching my head. I went from high velocity to low and in the middle, I found that velocity didn't make much difference at all in the 2500-3000 fps bracket but bullet construction did. Soft bullets drop thin skinned animals.

I shot a fallow with an hornady Amax by accident, they look a lot like SSTs,155gr at 2790 FPS at a broadside fallow yearling. I got it right in the heart but found that the bullet didn't exit! The insides of the chest were tomato soup, the heart blown out as flat as a pancake but not a single bone touched; It even missed the rib on the way in.

That deer looked profoundly ill immediately but still staggered about for a good 30 seconds like a drunk in search of a lamp post before doing a backflip, I swear, and dropping down dead.

I've never seem such organ damage as in that deer but it although unaware etc it took as long to die of a heart shot as an alerted doe.

As a result of these things I'm going to say that the hydrostatic shock that makes game animals drop and die is either an overlap of the temporal cavity of the projectile with CNS or explosive internal tissue displacement on to the same structures.

I do not accept that a pressure wave of sufficient magnitude is propagated within the animal's chest that goes on to damage the latter or other structures because I have gutted enough of them to know that the chest cavity is mainly full of air and there is nothing to transmit this wave to the relevant structures. I do not deny that such a wave could be propagated through some other medium however, just to settle that one.

Over to you gentlemen, I should be glad to hear your experiences.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
When a .50cal sniper round hits at 1000yds it has less than 2000fps and no fragmenting bullet, yet bodies still explode into pieces much like a varmint does when hit with an ultra high vel. high fragmenting bullet.

No they don't trax.
You believe that crap on youtube?

The first time I saw those videos they were titled "Rockchucks with a .300" or something like that. I suppose "Taliban with a .50 caliber" seemed funny to someone, but anyone that has seem rodents unravelling isn't fooled. Amazeingly, a lot of hunters fall for it.

quote:

Hydrostatic shock is very different to the often termed "Hydraulic Shot", which I believe is a fallacy. The notion that a bullet can 'transfer' it's energy along nerves and the like is ridiculous, BUT, if a bullet strikes very close to a nerve bundle or the spinal cord, then instantaneous death can occur because the very needed parts to life are destroyed.

Hmm, I think perhaps the term "hydraulic shock" may be a misnomer.

I recall one of Ackleys book touting the unususl killing power of some sub-caliber cartridges and I forget the specific term used, but "shock" was definatly part of it. I believe he and a friend were hunting small deer or antelope on catalina island with .17 cal rifles.. Anyway.. I always considered said "shock" value (if it is true) to be likened to the way we sometimes get a sensation like your head is going to explode when one of your other extremities are suddenly injured, for instance if youve ever hit your finger with a hammer.. Its a wierd and extremly uncomfortable sensation and I hope Im not the only one here who has felt it. (the head exploding part that is.) I guess what Im suggesting is that perhaps such a sudden severe trauma situation can cause a subconsious shut down, or overload of the brain.. ??

This has nothing to do with any sort of "hydraulic" application whatsoever and everything to do with the central nervous system simply doing its job.

Another thing I consider that may be applicable is the way an individual will loose consiousness when their pain threshold has reached critical mass. This is well documented. How such things could result in death or correlate to death from bullet wounds, I cant say for sure. Just some food for thought and my .02 c. worth.

quote:

I promise I won't mention S.D......


May I ask you, what do think the physiological phenomenon is that results in chest shot deer occasionally dropping to the shot?

Death??

For those that don't believe there is a shock wave (of whatever appropriate name) created by a bullet at high velocity or even low velocity, I wonder, if they would be willing to place their hand within a block of ballistic gelatin, one inch away from the centerline of impact from say a 180 gr TSX from a 30-06 as it was fired into the gelatin--say at 3" after the point of impact?

Watching videos from sources such as Barnes, and practical experience tells me that HELL YES there is a DAMAGING shock wave created by a rifle bullet entering an animal, and I believe higher velocity creates a larger wave.

I think that DRT shots have more to do with a myriad of factors, but if the wave hits something that incapacitates a critter, then it is incapacitated......people try to make stuff too damn complicated--there is a damaging 'wave' whatever it is appropriately named, and it causes damage, pretty simple to those who are reasonably objective.

But I think the point Fish is that this wave doesn't travel in a uniform manner through the animal due to differences in tissue structure and water content.

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people try to make stuff too damn complicated--there is a damaging 'wave' whatever it is appropriately named, and it causes damage, pretty simple to those who are reasonably objective.

Amen!! brother roger

We haven't had any measurable "hydro" in some parts of our state in 160 days

If any happened, we all would be in "shock"

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Originally posted by Finman:

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I promise I won't mention S.D......


May I ask you, what do think the physiological phenomenon is that results in chest shot deer occasionally dropping to the shot?

Death??

Well, eventually.

But it isn't dead the instant the bullet hits it is it?

See previous discussions on this thread on the theme of "dead" in this context.

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Originally posted by rcamuglia:

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The second was a muntjac buck ( a very small but actually quite tough deer weighing up to let's say thirty pounds or so ) at 210 yards with a controlled expansion flat point 180 grain bullet started at about 2500 fps

Graduates of "TEANCUM's School of Deer Hunting" are shaking their heads right now

I'm sorry i don't follow?

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
For those that don't believe there is a shock wave (of whatever appropriate name) created by a bullet at high velocity or even low velocity, I wonder, if they would be willing to place their hand within a block of ballistic gelatin, one inch away from the centerline of impact from say a 180 gr TSX from a 30-06 as it was fired into the gelatin--say at 3" after the point of impact?

Watching videos from sources such as Barnes, and practical experience tells me that HELL YES there is a DAMAGING shock wave created by a rifle bullet entering an animal, and I believe higher velocity creates a larger wave.

I think that DRT shots have more to do with a myriad of factors, but if the wave hits something that incapacitates a critter, then it is incapacitated......people try to make stuff too damn complicated--there is a damaging 'wave' whatever it is appropriately named, and it causes damage, pretty simple to those who are reasonably objective.

I agree with you buddy but as JLS points out, what does the wave propagate through in lung tissue?

As far as I can see none of the organs in the chest we shoot for are particularly rigidly attached to any CNS structures

right ghubert but, shooting an animal through the lungs by design will, if not immediately,, then soon thereafter restrict oxygenation of blood and thus impede the CNS by helping to shut down the brain.

so, not sure if lungs are attached as you say to any CNS structures but certainly a large player in the CNS ops system.

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Originally posted by SR4759:

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Originally posted by Trax:
When a .50cal sniper round hits at 1000yds it has less than 2000fps and no fragmenting bullet, yet bodies still explode into pieces much like a varmint does when hit with an ultra high vel. high fragmenting bullet.

No they don't trax.
You believe that crap on youtube?

I didn't think so either but didn't want to come out and say it because I never witnessed it. They did explode on the latest Rambo movie.

quote:

Originally posted by Finman:

quote:

I promise I won't mention S.D......


May I ask you, what do think the physiological phenomenon is that results in chest shot deer occasionally dropping to the shot?

Death??

Excellent!!!