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Most things will shrink when cooled, water however when frozen, the mass will expand. The normal pattern for most compounds is that as the temperature of the liquid increases, the density decreases as the molecules spread out from each other. As the temperature decreases, the density increases as the molecules become more closely packed. This pattern does not hold true for ice as the exact opposite occurs. | |||
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no sir.. volume expands, mass decreases.. this is why frozen water cracks rocks and .. but a "cool" thing is inorganic chemistry.. when you are doing phase calcs, they like to trick us.. and so, they ask us, in a series of questions, to define if H2+02 would combine into what, and if it was a gas or liquid .. SURPRISE.. that's when they introduce hydrogen bonds to us... opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Jeffe - Your response regarding margarine being a liquid and not a solid is a perfect example of the futility of everyday language in describing things as solids, liquids, or gases. All things flow. Some flow faster than others, some have a great bit more "space" inside their molecules, as well as different internal attractant forces, but they ALL flow. But for most folks, at, say 40-degrees F, margarine is a solid. Not as solid as marble, but certainly more solid than water at the same temp. And at that temp, both it and marble flow...margarine more rapidly, of course.... BTW, I am not trying to insult you with this comment, just pointing out the futility of our language in the kind of discussion you and others are are trying to resolve here. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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AC, what you have described, and I agree, is the failure of common use terms vs defined terms in a science. the term "solid" in physics and physical chemistry has a defined set of terms.. but these aren't the same as in biology.. and certainly aren't the same in arcetecture. solid butter.. a non-crystaline cooled liquid, is not a solid .. its just a cold liquid, that has different properties that people like to think they understand what a liquid is ... most people can't understand mass as a concept.. and frequently mistakenly swap mass for weight... and then try to say if an object in microgravity "weighs" 1%, and its 100LB on the earth, they will, to a manh, say it masses 1 LB in microgravity... which is, of course, dead wrong. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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When freezing water, I thought: - Volume increases - Density decreases - Mass stays the same. Why would 100ml of water, weigh less when frozen? I am aware that if one took 100ml of water to the moon, its weight would decrease but its mass would remain the same. The same applies to ice. | |||
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That is some funny chit! | |||
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BTW, Jeffe, marble, like margarine, also flows more rapidly as it gains caloric content. It is true with virtually everything...heat excites the molecular structure and inceases molecular activity...including flow. Makes me wonder what happens molecularly to instantly contiguent flesh when much of the kinetic "energy" potential in a speeding bullet is converted to heat as it fights its way into and through the flesh. Perhaps nothing significant, but I still wish I could know. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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Thanks for the list of references you use. IMHO methinks the dicussion regarding whether flesh & ballistic gel are solids or liquids is mute . Ballistics gel is a comparative simulation medium which has some properties comparable to flesh but not all A reasonable statement of the "state" of living tissue is that it is "solid, with fluid characteristics in high velocity impact events. It obeys non-linear behavior laws. It is viscous and exhibits second-order damping effects, as well as compressibility and elasticity " Ballistics gel similarly being a solid , but with different connectivity in its content to living tissue , which induces projectile deformation similar to living flesh , but does not undergo the same projectile caused damage. Re : hydraulic shock causing cerebral damage:- I have not been able to reference all of Alf's articles he listed , but have been able to review a a number of them and some others. The summary I come up with is that there is scientific evidence of hydraulic shock waves transmitting to the brain from a remote bullet strike that causes brain injury. what's lacking is consistent information on the level of damage sufficient to cause a DRT event. Physical effects from controlled tests resulted in a significant proportion of "temporary" immobility from "stunning" but a low proportion of DRT events. Mortality from tests inducing severe external hydraulic shock events was high after 24 Hrs. But Vapo's question was about DRT events The evidence of DRT brain injury from hydraulic shock/pressure from remote bullet strike events is both low & unreliable. In fairness its reasonable to acknowledge that the physical event of hydraulic shock to the brain causing injury from a remote bullet strike does exist, but its a minimal DRT event. The vast majority of the hydraulic shock & tissue damage occurring within 12" of the bullet track. Beauty is in the beholder in interpreting the severity & frequency of high severity of DRT brain injury from remote bullet strikes in hunting situations . The practical evidence continues to support the view that the primary reliable cause of death is loss of brain function from rapid exanguination, preceeded in many,but nowhere near all, cases by animal collapse from sensory overload from actual tissue damage of the bullet strike & potential hydraulic shock to the brain which temporarily immobilises the animal. The certainty of cause of death is exanguination in all non-CNS bullet strikes in vital areas of the animal. FWIW | |||
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I never said that the water was not a liquid... Of couse it's a liquid! But body organs are not liquid.
How does the truth become an agenda???? You may not like Alf, or you two may ahve some other beef that goes further back than this thread - but just because you may not like him doesn't mean he's not right when he says organs are solids. (Which he is.)
See my first resopnse... Also read the part in my post about the sponge - it is a much better analogy about how our organs hold lots of liquid and yet are still considered solids. . | |||
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Interesting how; solid particles can be suspended/held in fluids & liquids Fluids & liquids can be held in fluids [blood in muscle,water in sponge,air in lung] SUSPENSION. Fluid Liquid. According to the laws of Physics,the marble,margarine,air,water,ice, muscle,organs,skin,glass,metals,plastics- are all fluids. | |||
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Gentleman, I find this discussion absolutely unbelievable that lesser people than Alf can argue with him on this topic. In my opinion only medical doctors should be in this debate when it comes to the science of it. In fact, I have an overriding condition to add .... and that is that only doctors that studied wounds as a specialty subject (even self taught with continuing study whilst practicing) should debate this with Alf who made this one of his special interests in life (call it a pet subject if you like) Even some medical doctors got it wrong a couple of decades ago, as Alf pointed out previously. That why it is important that and doctor that wants to take a position here, must have at least a track record here to challenge Alf. And come to think of it why would Alf lie to us or mislead us. Let us give Alf some credit here, for heaven sake. Most of us have not even read one book, or one chapter in a book, or attended one symposium on this subject matter, and here we are confronting Alf with our ignorance. This subject matter was one of Alf's electives when he studied and he kept himself updated over a 25 year period. In all fairness, I wish to submit that every contestant here opposing Alf, should publish his track record here to give us a sense of his credentials. Warrior | |||
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  And that coming from a fool with so little cognative ability that he has to "" Transcribe "" Slurs from doughnut eaters.  Of course, all this SOLID meat Loonacy explains why warrior claims a 0.458" Bullet will BREAK-UP on Elk. ---- I do look forward, every day, to the Fantasy Humor provided by alf and warrior. | |||
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A degree doesnt make anyone smarter than anyone else. This isnt rocket science. -------------------- THANOS WAS RIGHT! | |||
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Seriously? then only licensed ballasticians should discuss bullet construction and interior/exterior ballastics. Are you a phycisist? Give alf credit? Sir, doctors kill more people, PER YEAR, than guns, outside of war. Water in a ziplockbag.. is greater than 90% liquid (physical scientic definition, not layman's terms) and, guess what? ldpe is NOT a solid. home spun definitions of whats solid not withstanding. BASIC, and I mean BASIC biology - animal cells (yes, there's exceptions) are usually a soft membrane, and plant cells usually have a rigid membrane. Since we aren't talking about shooting trees, bacteria, or snails, we can focus on the MAJORITY of animal cells, soft tissues. soft tissues - to be blunt and over simpliying, are "grapes" .. there's a membrane defining shape (ziplock) made up largely of protein.. which is a LIQUID.. ever seen liquid protien drinks? and fat.. and fats, friends, are oils.. and oils are? LIQUIDS (the concept of organic solid basically applies to bone, shell, teeth, and COAL.. nonmotile tissues) inside the cell, the VAST majority of the contents are.. LIQUIDS.. just like a grape .. if a grape is fully dessicated, it weighs what, 25% of it original weight? but jeffe, organs retain their shape. To an extent, yes, they certainly do... just like a ziplock filled with water, and for the same reasons.. the membrane defines the container of the liquids flow. a sponge is NOT a good referent, has is cell walls tend to make it shape as a skeleton.. but we aren't shooting sponges. a better example is a JELLYFISH.. no one in their right mind thinks a jelly fish is a solid. take 1,000,000 ziplock bags of water.. apply an organic adhesive (say, how about a protien glue) and in some cases, add a membrane... let's see.. at least 70% water ... LIQUID water of the remainder, a trivial percent of solids in suspension, and a membrane, made of proteins. through in some cellular structures, and we wind up with... like 90% LIQUID within a container.. everyone referencing "but liquids fill their containers" and trying to discount "steak"... gentlemen, 10 ziplocks in a 5 gall bucket do NOT conform to the shape of the bucket exactly, yet only a fool would argue that 99% of the weight and volume are LIQUIDS. ballastic gel.. is a LIQUID. made up of water and either a plastic or a protien.. There is NO structure to it, no crystals, it flows, it moves, and it.. taadaa leaves holes when shot. can you freeze BG? yep.. and it changes it properties dramatically .. it now has.... drum roll please.. water crystals. ask yourself.. is silly putty a solid or a liquid. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Hot Core, As sated before, before you can argue with Alf you have to publish your credentials so we can ascertain what medical experience you have to comment on wounds. Let us put it differently I wonder whose opinion the courts will accept .... yours or Alf's? If it still has not dawned upon you, let me say it to you - it won't be you !!! Since you don't read or consult the work of others, we are left with your uneducated opinion of medical science. Warrior PS: Snippet from Larry Gibson: "It's nice to see numerous objections to someone being "slammed". However I have to wonder where all of you who are mentioning it on this thread are when Hot Core goes off on his personal rants and insults on other threads. All of us here have been insulted for several years now in not only similar but worse ways by Hot Core. He makes absolutely rediculous claims of his hunting, shooting abilities and reloading practices as "advise" to other posters which most often are misleading and even dangerous. When some, anyone, attempts to correct his information or disagree with him he goes off on personal attacks and insults." http://forums.accuratereloadin...051046431#3051046431 | |||
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Hey -- i learned something tissue is a viscoelastic FLUID http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscoelasticity neat ... and scientically defined as a fluid, but with interesting properties... nice to learn something new.. thanks for provoking the thoughts
opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Doesn't add anything technical to the discussion but its fun to watch: impact video "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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that video link is the best thing to come to this thread LOL. -------------------- THANOS WAS RIGHT! | |||
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There is a dump truck load of shit in these 6 pages....let's talk about S.D. for about 10 pages ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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If one puts muscle tissue/organs into an sausage machine, it will deform to fill the spiral flutes of the auger and be compressed and forced out the end. - The tissue flows. In order for something to flow it must be an fluid, no? Open a tap in summer and water flows, in winter it may freeze and not flow. However,with enough force/pressure,ice will flow. Glacial flow is the result of gravity deforming the ice and pulling it down hill. With enough force,rock will deform/flow, as seen in this uplifted and compressed strata Here. | |||
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/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Thanks, Alf.I thought it had probably been examined ong ago, but as it is not my field of expertise, I didn't really know where to look. My own suspicion, and it is nothing more than that, certainly not "knowledge", would be that rather than hydraulic shock transmitted any significant distance, what MIGHT occur would be some sort of severe nerve trauma. By that, I mean "Is there a possibility that a really high velocity caused, destructive wound could send an electrical signal to the brain putting it into shut-down mode long enough for the animal to fall, and then die of complete (if only at first temporary) brain and vital systems shutdown?" Vaguely similar to what the brain does to the body if the body suffers massive instant blood loss? I don't know if that is even possible let alone likely; am just asking. Best wishes, AC My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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Which is why I mentioned the marble and margarine in the first place. To some extent, as fluids, they may be able to transmit energy in wave form from where it is input to some other site. The question of course, is how much of the energy is transmitted, and how much is "absorbed" (for lack of a better handy term) in the process of transmission...just as in engineering the flow of water or even electricity from one place to another. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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Bullets crush and cut flesh with its sharp petals. Flesh is unique, it is unlike paper, planks, steel, sand, water, ice and gelatine. Densities might be close of some, but its properties differ, and that is the simple point Alf is trying to explain here with some difficulty. So we give Alf all sorts of other citations ...  Gravity is not a factor in our discussion, but anyway, I do not see it as "pulling" the glacier down, but rather as a "suction" force - reason being it has no arms to pull with.  It seems that all the books that Alf is quoting from is WRONG, and needs to be re-written. But I see a wider problem ... all those medical scientists that lecture at simposiums, that Alf is also attending, are ALL wrong. Warrior | |||
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When a bullet travels through an animal, flesh displaces-flows around the bullet and between the cutting petals, no? Bullet construction materials flow when a bullet deforms/expands. Copper jackets stretch and flow to support the softer mushrooming lead core. Soft lead flows beyond the support of the jacket and gets torn off.
True, gravity is not a factor in the HS discussion, but it is a force involved when discussing examples of fluid flow. Gravitational Pull[def.]; The attraction that one object has for another object due to the invisible force of gravity. The mass of an object affects its gravitational pull. The gravitational pull of the Sun keeps the planets in orbit around it. Suction[def.]; is the flow of a fluid into a partial vacuum, or region of low pressure.The pressure gradient between this region and the ambient pressure will propel matter toward the low pressure area. Suction is popularly thought of as an attractive effect, which is incorrect since vacuums do not innately attract matter. Dust being "sucked" into a vacuum cleaner is actually being pushed in by the higher pressure air on the outside of the cleaner. The higher pressure of the surrounding fluid can push matter into a vacuum but a vacuum cannot attract matter. but please, enlighten us as to where the "suction"[vacuum/low pressure region] is, in an glacial flow. | |||
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I used the word "suction" as a joke humorously. Warrior | |||
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That would be correct, because Human Wound Studies have ZERO, NADA, ZILCH to do with Game Wounds. Of course, you would both realize that "IF" you had a modicum of first-hand experience with each. Still as Pitiful and Pathetic - as usual! | |||
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gee i got into this thread a bit late, is it about shooting game with a fire hose?? | |||
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Giving entirely new meaning to the phrase...."To get hosed" /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Hot Core, "IF" you had a modicum of first-hand experience of wounds in terms of current medical understanding you would realise what a FOOL you were to take Alf on in his field of expertise. You talk about first hand experience of wounds - my God, Alf deals with wounds daily in his medical practise as a specialist doctor. You are really conceited to talk down to Alf from your self elevated throne. I had hoped that after Alf explained it from so many angles that you would have seen the light. But no, you persist in your attempt to ridicule Alf. When in fact we should be looking up to him in this field. And if I may add, it is because you do not read and consult the work of others. You really have an inflated opinion about your knowledge and so-called EXPERIENCE with wounds. The bottom line is ... on this thread you have not shared a single iota of useful knowledge with us. All we got was your criptic and unmotivated statements and personal attacks against me and Alf, and I am ready to return that favour to you here, by saying the same to you ..... how PITIFUL and PATHETIC you are. So, you are still as PITIFUL and PATHETIC as usual !!! WARRIOR | |||
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Getting back to Vapo's question.......... and the issue of bullet deformation contributing to hydrodynamic pressure on organs remote from the site of bullet strike contributing to DRT results. Documentation in the available references identifies that the shape of the projectile frontal face , at impact & as deformed by impact, contributes more to the hydrodynamic forces that result from the impact , the width of the wound channel, and the extent of penetration than velocity. Some interesting information there on the dynamics of meplat and the actual shape of the deformed head of the projectile and how it vectors the hydrodynamic forces during penetration. ie a nice rounded bulbous deformed bullet head is not necessarily more effective than a smaller diameter, but flatter deformed bullet head...........as it influences the direction of the hydrodynamic pressure that results from penetration at velocity. Doesn't work taken to extremes of course. No news there for those that have critiqued their own field results & compared recovered bullets..............nice to see it documented & the physical dynamic identified scientifically............ with cup wall thickness & toughness combined with the toughness of the core determining the shape of the deformed bullet head and the extent of fragmentation. | |||
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This entire mess is  vapo you should be ashamed ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Me thinks you're merely jealous that you don't have a 6-page thread! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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