quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Which knocks both of us out - and Alf is the last man standing.

speak for yourself, chris, as you are completely unaware of my college and training.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
We should be lucky that our game does not contain motor oil, heh?

huh? if you don't comprehend the statement, belittling it shows your ignorance. like the ziplock bags, water in cells doesn't become a solid.. and the cells themselves are not solids...

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

Just the 70% water contained in the flesh that we cannot drink.

you can't drink ldpe, mercury, or any numer of other liquids, either.. well, i guess you COULD drink mercury, once.

"drinkability" isn't a characteristics of a liquid, sir.. that's more pop science. you can't drink candle wax, can you? or shortening... both are, without a doubt, liquids according to SCIENCE, not fickle opinion. one also can't drink liquid o2... but that doesn't change that its liquid.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

Warrior

Jeffe,

I have asked before that wound experience be backed up by a medical degree and then applied experience in the field of dealing with wounds.

Nobody came forward with that, so I think it is reasonable to assume that you are not a medical docter, not so? That was the criteria I laid down, and as such I do not qualify myself. If you do qualify, then I am sorry, but you did not come forward to lay your credentials bare.

All this other talk that you put up did not bring us closer to better understand muscle tissue. I am sure if Alf steps in, he will elevate the complexity far beyond my simplistic posting that I gleaned from Wikipedia. What I have posted just touched on the surface of Alf's speciality.

But as I have indicated before, Alf gets updated information from the world over by these scientists that lecture at these medical simposiums. Are they also wrong, or must we conclude that Alf does not understand them correctly?

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Jeffe,

I have asked before that wound experience be backed up by a medical degree and then applied experience in the field of dealing with wounds.

Warrior

and you don't have one, so live up to your OWN standard.. and give it a rest. ..

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior: 23 June 2011 17:13

quote:

When a bullet travels through an animal, flesh displaces-flows around the bullet and between the cutting petals, no?
Bullet construction materials flow when a bullet deforms/expands.
Copper jackets stretch and flow to support the softer mushrooming lead core.
Soft lead flows beyond the support of the jacket and gets torn off.

Warrior

above you agree that tissue displaces/flows,ie; behaves like a fluid.[the laws of physics say;if something flows,its a fluid]
Then you go on to state that you believe the exact opposite....

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:25 June 2011 01:27
Jeffe,

Yes, but mostly liquid is very misleading; living tissue is NOT a fluid .

Why? Because, Flesh does not behave like water, it is more complex. The water contained in flesh is housed intra-cellular, in boundary form, and not like water that can flow freely or close up. So, the flow regime of water is fundamentally very different to flesh when hit by a bullet.

When a jug of water is shot at high velocity it will explode, unlike an animal who contains much more water than say a 2 gallon jug, because the biomechanical properties of flesh are different.

Warrior

You never explained the reason[s] why you changed your view concerning tissue being an fluid.

quote:

But as I have indicated before, Alf gets updated information from the world over by these scientists that lecture at these medical simposiums. Are they also wrong, or must we conclude that Alf does not understand them correctly?

Jeffe,

You forgot to answer the above question.

Thanks
Warrior

Trax,

There is no conflict in my position, as you alluded to.

Water is non-compressable, it does not support shear.
Solids are compressable and they support shear - they have a definite stress/strain curve.
This by implication means that 'soft solids' with viscoleastic properties show temorary cavitation phenomena.
Solids like paper do not. So, we cannot lump all solids together.

The fact that flesh is described as a 'soft solid' by medical professionals has a definite meaning to separate it from other forms of solids like paper, lead, steel, etc. Its flow regimes differ. When a steel plate yields to a bullet going through (and it flows) it, it does not make the steel a fluid. Likewise, when flesh is displaced with the passage of a bullet, it does not make flesh a water-based liquid or fluid.

Warrior

Circling the Barn because he has been defeated.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

quote:

But as I have indicated before, Alf gets updated information from the world over by these scientists that lecture at these medical simposiums. Are they also wrong, or must we conclude that Alf does not understand them correctly?

Jeffe,

You forgot to answer the above question.

Thanks
Warrior

said question comes after your position that to post on the matter, one must be an MD AND specialized in trauma. you are neither, correct? therefore you didn't ACTUALLY post that, it was rethoeric...

water, PURE WATER has entirely different characteristics than water in solution.. H20, PURE, h20, for example, won't carry a current.. no joke, but just lab examples..

water in cells, chris, is not water (fullstop).. think grapes, sir...

HFS, i have the answer...

quote:

quote:
But as I have indicated before, Alf gets updated information from the world over by these scientists that lecture at these medical simposiums. Are they also wrong, or must we conclude that Alf does not understand them correctly?

Jeffe,

Just answer the question.
Alf is opposed for his view.
Forget what I have said - I am not a docter, but Alf is.
Since Alf is a docter, and you and me are not, the question stands as above.

Warrior

there are 4 states of matter, in our general world,
gas, liquid, solid, and plasma .. correct?

let's leave plasma out, becuase, frankly, i don't understand it well enough to tell you how a floresent tube properly works...

there is the concept of triple point.. where somethine exists in all states, due to confluence of temp and pressure.

otherwise, MOST humanly "touchable" subtances usually exist in one, perhaps two, states under standard temp. pres. (STP) which is 70degf, and sealevel.

most anything can move through the three states of matter -- and since i was training in college in the dark ages, i still use the phrase heat of vaporization, and heat of solidification.

if one takes propane under STP it is a gas, right?

pressurize it ALOT and it is liquid (LPG)

pressurize THAT alot, and it freezes into a solid.. rarely seen by human...

CO2, normally a gas, can be frozen- this is dry ice.. under STP, it sublimates.. going right to gas... but if you raise the pressure, it will become a liquid... but not seen under STP.

please note that there are no "super gas" states... or "super liquid" states, where it becomes "second stage X".. but you can change the temp/pressure enough to get markedly different reactivities...

now, let's look at solids... there is no such thing as a SUPER solid.. but things can be frozen into an embrittlement state.. steel is still steel at -100 ... but it is now very brittle...

ah, you might say .. you think you see the bait.. but perhaps you dont.. you see, steel doesn't change its properties as it cools, more than anything else.. cooling is removing energy... and that also reduces bond strengths .. at absolute zero (-473 c iirc), EVERYTHING is "infinitely brittle"

now, let's go back to science..
at, say, 38c, flesh is in one state.. if you cut off a slab of steak (which alf seems to want to drink), and hit it with a hammer, it flows around the hammer, and doesn't have any truely violent reaction.

yet some of us think this is a solid.

take that same steak, and reduce the temp to -10c for a couple hours.. take it out.. hit it with a hammer... and what happens?

it SHATTERS.. like dirty (water) ICE..
it now has obvious crystals
it has a rigid structure
it has a defined shape (pretty much unchanging)
and, frankly, has all the properties of a solid.. WHEN FROZEN...

which means, of course, at STP, it is not frozen.. into a solid..

why go through all that?

(lets only focus on temp, rather than pressure, as the pressure changes required aren't relevent)

here is a grossly over simplified chart of the states of matter. simple as it may be, if one ignores plasma (which i don't understand properly) it is accurate


GAS
(above heat of vaporization)
(below heat of vaporization)
liquid
(above heat of solidification)
(below heat of solidification)
Solid

when the thing goes through the vaporiation or solidification temps, its physical state changes.. this is physics 101 ...

if flesh freezes into an entirely different set of physical properties when frozen... then it was never frozen at 36c... and therefore, was not a solid...

this is boot to the head simple...
you can apply this to steel, water, or hydrogen .. or flesh.

ya'll have a nice day..

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Forget what I have said - I am not a docter, \
Warrior

trust me, i already have

Just answer the question re Alf.
You and HOT Core opposed him, not so?
And you did it without a medical backgound nor the experience that Alf has as a specialist doctor.
Why is this?

Oh, and let us be real and practical ... when we shoot a live animal the meat is only in ONE state of matter - not frozen or heated up way up there. And so it the bullet at the time of shooting.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Just answer the question re Alf.
You and HOT Core opposed him, not so?
And you did it without a medical backgound nor the experience that Alf has as a specialist doctor.
Why is this?

Warrior

chris,
you continue to post when you say you aren't qualified. dr's kill more people than guns (outside of war) every year... dr's can be wrong.. and alf obviously is.

i don't care if he "Gets" documents, or attends seminars.. dead people receive books in the mail, and every chair in the room attends seminars... doesn't mean the data is received, processed, and integrated...

now, answer this.. what happens when you freeze flesh into an ACTUAL solid? its physical properties radically change, right? when it ACTUALLY becomes a solid.

its really, really that basic

Now thing get realy stupid!

And that is why tissue is described as a 'soft solid' in its natural living state. Not frozen or heated up to the point of vaporization.

Why do we argue the terminology.
Sure we can put things in continuum mechanics and makes this discussion totally irrelevant.

Warrior

Vapo.....damn!!!!

I wish we could get 8 pages of pictures...but there isn't as much killing on this forum as back and forth talkin shit.

quote:

dr's can be wrong.. and alf obviously is.

Jeffe,

Thanks for the answer, but I don't think so.
You are not crediting Alf for who he is and nor can you know what his compentance really is - only his professors know that and his many patients that he reconstructed. Alf's continuing education keeps him abreast of what is happening in his field of specialization. I have no doubt about this whatsoever.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
And that is why tissue is described as a 'soft solid' in its natural living state.

no, sir. its a viscoelastic liquid. there's no such thing as a "Soft solid" ,, that's a layman term, and inaccurate.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Not frozen or heated up to the point of vaporization.

if its not solid, you have 3 other choices.. liquid, gas or plasma. pick one

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

Why do we argue the terminology.

we aren't arguing. i am trying to educate you as to what a sample is, and you refuse to integrate this knowledge. like a freshman arguing to a prof that about debits and credits... before he actually understand that its left and right, not plus or minus

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

Sure we can put things in continuum mechanics

no, it doesnt, as we are in an expressed sample state of agreeed conditions, the quantum state is "present"

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
and makes this discussion totally irrelevant.

refusing to accept the basics does the same.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

Warrior

chris,
do this...

take 1/2 a liter of water...
warm it to 38c
add 1/2 tablespoons of salt, sugar, and gelatin.. you can add 5cc of whiskey, if you like...(just kidding)
and tell me what physical state that is?

then cool it to 20c, and tell me again.. please note the crytals, or lack thereof, in the sample.

then place in freezer overnight and tell me about the (now solid) sample

if you can freeze it, and it radically changes properties, it wasn't a solid (short of low temp super conductors)

Chris,
if i heard alf say a broken arm was a compound fracture of the femur, i would know he was wrong. dr's make mistakes, sir... and then, due to their education, frequently don't accept and revise their mistakes...

he's professors don't ave any feedback on his practice today .. why keep bringing them up?

stund up on your own basis.. don't try to refer to anyone else as an authority... win or loose by yourself... remember, "your" expert may be wrong... that's why there's millions of experts...

Jeffe,

I am not disputing the the many different things you say. In fact we agree on most.

This was purely about how a bullet would behave in water versus tissue, being called a 'soft solid', whether slang or not. My point was that flow regimes are very different in water vs flesh, and the water contained in flesh was in a special state housed in cells, and that is why their biomechanical properties differ. No more and no less.

Warrior

Originally posted by Warrior:


There is no conflict in my position, as you alluded to.

Water is non-compressable, it does not support shear.

Actually, water is compressable, its just that its molecules are so tightly packed that its only compressable to a very small degree, it takes great effort to do so,and theres little useful advantage to such hard earned gains.

Solids are compressable and they support shear - they have a definite stress/strain curve.
This by implication means that 'soft solids' with viscoleastic properties show temorary cavitation phenomena.
Solids like paper do not. So, we cannot lump all solids together.

The fact that flesh is described as a 'soft solid' by medical professionals has a definite meaning to separate it from other forms of solids like paper, lead, steel, etc. Its flow regimes differ. When a steel plate yields to a bullet going through (and it flows) it, it does not make the steel a fluid.

Steel and copper is fluid/flows when enough force is applied, water & ice is fluid/flows when enough force is applied[gravity can be sufficient force]
If you dont subject steel,copper or water to any force, none of them will flow.
In metal machining milling/turning, the material being removed as result of elastic & plastic deformation, is refered to/known as chip flow.
Animal tissue also exhibits elastic & plastic deformation when a bullet[cutting tool] travels through it.

Elastic deformation relates to the temporary wound cavity, plastic deformation relates to the permament wound cavity.

quote:

... is referred to ...

Trax,

'Is referred to' is the operative word.

Yes, this is how we commonly refer to or call something, or differentiate it from other similar things, but they are still different. To make sense and place the focus more particularly, it is common for us to categorize. That is why it is being done with tissue as well, as we refer to living tissue and dead flesh that has become stiff (in a state of rigor mortise). The chemical change in the muscles after death causes the state of rigor mortise. Hence the term 'soft solid' to describe the state of matter in tissue due to its special properties that varies from other solids by having viscoelastic properties that show temporary cavitation phenomena - something that wet paper stacks do not do, as a solid.

In wet paper shooting we see that the paper compacts in front of the bullet and the bullet has to push that compressed paper plug as well, which we do not get in flesh. So wound tracks in paper cannot be equated to flesh wounds that we see in game, and so 'paper wounds' or the size of the holes are misleading due to the very nature and composition of paper. Furthermore, paper's resistance to penetration (i.e. drag) is very different to living tissue due to it's relationship to velocity. It has a direct velocity/drag relationship, whereas drag increases exponentially in flesh, as velocity goes up. So the wounding effect is different - the increased drag translates to more trauma in the wounding effect.

Even with ballistic gelatine the mechanical behaviour is different to living tissue, whilst it may have the same density it is not similar to muscle in elasticity and so it does not mimic flesh wounds in terms of a permanent wound channel and nor does the gelatine retract like temporary cavitation as in muscle. That makes living tissue very different to ballistic gelatine.

For the meat hunter, this may be of some interest how the state of the meat can be altered (Wikipedia):

"Rigor mortis is very important in meat technology. The onset of rigor mortis and its resolution partially determines the tenderness of meat. If the post-slaughter meat is immediately chilled to 15°C (59°F), a phenomenon known as cold shortening occurs, where the muscle shrinks to a third of its original size. This will lead to the loss of water from the meat along with many of the vitamins, minerals, and water soluble proteins. The loss of water makes the meat hard and interferes with the manufacturing of several meat products like cutlet and sausage.[citation needed]

Cold shortening is caused by the release of stored calcium ions from the sarcoplasmic reticulum of muscle fibers in response to the cold stimulus. The calcium ions trigger powerful muscle contraction aided by ATP molecules. To prevent cold shortening, a process known as electrical stimulation is carried out, especially in beef carcasses, immediately after slaughter and skinning. In this process, the carcass is stimulated with alternating current, causing it to contract and relax, which depletes the ATP reserve from the carcass and prevents cold shortening.[4]"

Or alternatively put, this is why meat that is butchered and immediately frozen or eaten is usually tougher than meat that is first "aged" in a cooler for a period of time.

Warrior

All is lost, I been dazzled with

What's the original question? Are we talking about the temporary cavity where the tissue rebounds to its original position leaving the smaller permanent wound channel?? And where the temporary cavity can in part become a larger permanent wound channel if the temporary cavity exceeds the limits of the tissue to rebound???

I'm pretty sure that such violent movement of tissue, even if temporary, could disrupt the central nervous system of an animal if struck in the right place. If the wound is quickly fatal, the animal would probably expire prior to recovery from the CNS disruption. If the shot is not quickly fatal, the animal could recover from the CNS disruption prior to expiring from the wound.

I'm sure most everyone here has observed an example of massive tissue damage and disruption far exceeding that of the permanent wound channel. Even without the permanent wound channel, I've seen enough massive tissue disruption from a temporary cavity that it alone should be more than ample to knock one out cold if struck in the right place.

Best

Temporary cavity results from elastic flow of tissue. - elastic flow(def.) return of a material to its original shape following deformation.
Permanent cavity results from plastic flow of tissue. - plastic flow (def.) Rheological phenomenon in which flowing behavior of the material occurs after the applied stress reaches a critical (yield) value. Material undergoes unrecoverable deformations when a load level is reached.

viscosity is the quantity that describes a fluid's resistance to flow. It is a measure of the resistance of a fluid which is being deformed by either shear stress or tensile stress, viscosity is "thickness" or "internal friction".

Visco-elastic flow is a remarkably interesting subject. Water, for example, has a viscosity that is independent of the strain that you put on it. In contrast, Non-Newtonian flows have a vicosity that changes with the strain rate.

Ice has different viscosity or fluidity to water and air [due to temp difference and resultant changes in internal friction], but in the right conditions, ice flows .

Copper and steel both have viscosity or fluidity, their propensity to flow/deform alters according to change in temp. & resultant change in level of internal molecular friction.

Tissue also has viscosity/fluidity, with less propensity to deform/flow when in the dehydrated or frozen state.
Tissue does flow down the meat auger when making mince. So whether you apply the tissue to cutter[meat in mincer] or apply the cutter to tissue[bullet driven through animal] certain flows take place.

When a copper projectile punches a steel plate, there is molecular flow of material in both the steel and copper as they each deform at their own specific rates. Heat the steel up sufficiently prior, and it will exhibit greater propensity/less resistance to flow,allowing the bullet to penetrate easier.

Likewise, heat ice or ballistic gel. to a liquid state[lower viscosity/lower internal friction], and the bullet [or your ice pick], will pentrate easier.

All matter in the universe has kinetic energy,and moves or vibrates as a result.

When ice absorbs more kinetic energy, it molecules are more able to slip past each other freeing them to change its state to liquid. Sufficient increase in KE will change its state to gas, because the water molecules have gained enough KE to escape the weak bonds which keep the molecules as water.

The CUP method of pressure testing, involves measuring how much compression/deformation/flow there is in an sample of copper.
Rotary hammer forging of barrels, involves steel deforming,flowing,molecularly compressing - to take the shape of the mandrel.

The food industry use viscosity as a measure [in meat and other foods] to determine different things.
Viscosity is important to them to assist with flows rates in high production machines, Viscosity measures are also used to determine the freshness of meat. There is a steady rise in viscosity, associated with bacterial decomposition of meat, and the extent of this rise is found to bear a constant relation to the stage of decomposition as measured by recognized chemical, physical and aesthetic tests. A high viscosity might mean either that the meat were very fresh or that it were very stale, but in practice there is no difficulty in distinguishing between the two conditions.
For it to be possible to take a viscosity measure of tissue, it needs to be an fluid.

For some fluids, viscosity is a constant over a wide range of shear rates (Newtonian fluids). The fluids without a constant viscosity (non-Newtonian fluids) cannot be described by a single number. Non-Newtonian fluids exhibit a variety of different correlations between shear stress and shear rate.

Newtonian Fluid[def.] a fluid whos stress Vs strain curve is linear. This constant of proportionality is known as viscosity.
In common terms this means the fluid continues to flow regardless of the forces acting on it.
Water is a good eg; because it continues to exemplify fluid properties no matter how fast it is agitated.
For a Newtonian fluid, the viscosity, depends only on temp. and pressure, not on the forces acting on it.

Non-Newtonian Fluid[def.] a fluid whose viscosity changes when the gradient in flow speed changes.
Its flow properties are not described by a single constant value of viscosity. The relationship between shear stress & strain rate is non linear.Therefore a constant co-ef. of viscosity cannot be defined.
The higher the impact force/stress exerted by a foreign object, the more the non-Newtonian fluid will thin or thicken,[increase or decrease viscosity.]
EG; if you gently release an steel ball at the surface of a non-Newtonian corn starch solution, it will travel down through the solution easier than if you dropped the steel ball from a much greater height. The substance shear thickens as result of the higher impact force.
In other words. when you attempt to the increase the displacement/flow rate, it actually thickens to reduce its own flowrate. The slower you try to penetrate it, the easier it is to penetrate.

Non Newtonian materials that exhibit shear thickening are called a Dilatant
Non Newtonian materials that exhibit shear thinning are called a Pseudoplastic

Muscle tissue is high percentage water/liquid content. water is Newtonian,
however,BLOOD is Non-Newtonian.

Blood is speudoplastic [shear thining],... as shear rate is increased, its viscosity decreases... which is the opposite to the behavior of other non Newtonian fluids like ballistic gel and cornstarch in water, which shear thicken with increased shear rate.

Blood is a suspension. -[cells and large protiens are suspended.]which can be separated in a centrifuge. Even if you simply leave blood standing in a tube [ERS test],in about 60 minutes, red blood cells will congregate toward the bottom and PLASMA will rise to the top. So they are in non-colloidal suspension.

Blood is a solution. -[ions, sugars and other small molecules are properly dissolved.] which cannot be separated in a centrifuge.

Ballistic gelatin is an dilatant [shear thickening] Non Newtonian hydro-colloid suspension:- The molecules on the gelatin are emulsified using heat. As the mix cools,the gelatin molecule begin forming an expanded crystal lattice structure which traps or incorporates the water in which it is sitting.

-Compressive strain rate sensitivity of ballistic gelatin-

Gelatin is a popular tissue simulant used in biomedical applications. The uniaxial compressive stress–strain response of gelatin was determined at a range of strain rates. In the quasistatic regime, gelatin strength remained relatively constant. With increase in loading rate, the compressive strength increased from 3kPa at a strain rate of around 0.0013/s to 6MPa at a strain rate of around 3200/s. This dramatic increase in strength of gelatin at high rates is attributed to its shear-thickening behavior and is argued on the basis of hydrocluster formation mechanism and differences in internal energy dissipation mechanism under static and dynamic loading.
Hydroclustering - When the particles of a stabilized suspension transition from an immobile state to mobile state, small groupings of particles form hydroclusters, increasing the viscosity. These hydroclusters are composed of particles momentarily compressed together, forming a irregular, rod-like chain of particles akin to a logjam or traffic jam. In theory the particles have extremely small interparticle gaps, rendering this momentary, transient hydrocluster as incompressible. It is possible that additional hydroclusters will form through aggregation.

COLLOID - a system in which fine particles[that do not dissolve] are dispersed within a continous medium,and that do not settle out under influence of gravity.
These particles have negligible settling velocity because their small mass have a low gravitational force.

An Emulsion is a suspension of two liquids that usually do not mix together.

Water on its own, compresses less than tissue, resulting in more direct/rapid/dramatic displacement. [water achieves max.density at 4 deg.Celcius.]
Despite tissue being less dense, it still has an higher -co-efficient of friction. ie; there is more friction/drag beteen tissue & bullet than there is between water & bullet.
However, there are certain type energy waves that will travel through fluids.,but will not travel through liquids.

Hydrostatic [def.] -relating to fluids that are at rest/ not in motion, or under pressure.

Saunders Veterinary Dictionary:
Hydrostatic[def.] -pertaining to a liquid in a state of equilibrium or the pressure exerted by a stationary fluid.
hydrostatic pressure - a significant factor in intestinal absorption, the tissue fluid pressure against which osmosis has to achieve positive gradient if small molecules are to pass the cell membranes and be absorbed.

Army Research Lab- modelling the penetration behavior of rigid speres into ballistic gel.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

For the meat hunter, this may be of some interest how the state of the meat can be altered (Wikipedia):

"Rigor mortis is very important in meat technology. The onset of rigor mortis and its resolution partially determines the tenderness of meat. If the post-slaughter meat is immediately chilled to 15°C (59°F), a phenomenon known as cold shortening occurs, where the muscle shrinks to a third of its original size. This will lead to the loss of water from the meat along with many of the vitamins, minerals, and water soluble proteins. The loss of water makes the meat hard and interferes with the manufacturing of several meat products like cutlet and sausage.[citation needed]

Cold shortening is caused by the release of stored calcium ions from the sarcoplasmic reticulum of muscle fibers in response to the cold stimulus. The calcium ions trigger powerful muscle contraction aided by ATP molecules. To prevent cold shortening, a process known as electrical stimulation is carried out, especially in beef carcasses, immediately after slaughter and skinning. In this process, the carcass is stimulated with alternating current, causing it to contract and relax, which depletes the ATP reserve from the carcass and prevents cold shortening.[4]"

Or alternatively put, this is why meat that is butchered and immediately frozen or eaten is usually tougher than meat that is first "aged" in a cooler for a period of time.

Warrior

The physiology of Rigor Mortis is still poorly understood in the detail of its components & interactions.
ATP ( adenosine triphosphate ) is required in both the contraction & relaxation of muscle.
its function is assumed to be like a catalyst in muscle action.
contraction is caused by exposure of muscle cells to calcium with ATP acting as a sort of catalyst in the reaction of the muscle tissue to the calcium and in the removal of calcium from the muscle cells.
calcium is not the only initiator of muscle movement tho...........whilst ATP is always involved in both the contraction & relaxation reactions

The major byproduct of muscle action is Lactic Acid.

Rigor Mortis even without refrigeration at ambient temps is triggered by the leaching of calcium from the stored body fluids with the loss of autogenous control following complete brain death.
Rigor Mortis affects all the muscle groups
ie
voluntary :-
- up
-down
- left
-right
..........at the same time.

ATP is used in retaining the muscle contraction of rigor mortis.
when the ATP of each muscle cell is fully utilised the muscle cell cannot relax thru the normal process & muscle relaxation occurs from tissue breakdown from enzymes in body fluids over time.
The ageing process to tenderise meat is accomplished by this enzyme action.

the cyclic electro-shocking of meat is to use up the stored ATP rapidly by electro-induced muscle contraction,to reduce the extent of rigor mortis & 'tenderise" the meat more rapidly.
ie
without ATP the leaching of calcium from body fluids cannot achieve muscle contraction.

Raw AC power cycles too fast 50-60/sec to achieve both a muscle contraction & a muscle relaxation sequence...........it basically triggers a contraction action.
The cyclic electro-shocking of carcases is a modulated timebased sequence, which in modern equipment first induces a strong , long contraction sequence to optimise the squeezing of blood from within the tissues & blood vessels, followed by a more rapid sequence of pulsed electro-shock to induce both contraction & relaxation till the ATP is used up.
He He...........at which point it is simple probability theory that 50% of the muscle cells will have run out of ATP in the contracted state & be stuck there until enzyme action breaks the tissues down, while the other 50% of muscle cells will run out of ATP in the relaxed state ..........& the meat is in a more advanced tender condition at butchering as the carcass is incapable of achieving full rigor.
This is a preferred process for meat which will be consumed fresh chilled.

Frozen stored meat is another matter altogether.
for a quality product after significant frozen storage The carcass quality is optimised by allowing the body to enter full rigor under light chilling followed by rapid freezing whilst in full rigor.
a) water in the body expands when frozen & in doing so damages cell structures & results in soggy meat when thawed.
b) body tissue in rigor resists cell damage better than body tissue that is relaxed.
c) salts in the body fluids migrate away from frozen sites ( higher salt content freezes at lower temps). Slow freezing causes grain growth in the fluids that are frozen in the part frozen state which causes greater tissue cell damage & a poorer quality product when thawed.It also results in a lower temp required for achieving full freezing.
d) the optimal outcome is achieved by rapid freezing which traps the body fluid at the lowest average salts content in the phase change from liquid to solid and results in a fully frozen carcass or portion at a higher temperature with smaller frozen fluid grains.

If freezing meat from a successful hunt it is best achieved by spreading the portions to be frozen against the walls of a chest freezer & stacking existing frozen product in the middle.
For an upright freezer, existing frozen product should be stacked in compartments that do not have coils under the shelves & spreading the portions to be frozen on the shelves which have coils under them...........this increases the heat transfer efficiency of the freezing process & optimises freezing time.
This works equally for game animals ,fish , & fowl.

anyone who is freezing without vacuum packing
is letting themselves & their taste buds down as its important to exclude as much air as possible from the portions as it minimises oxidation of the fats in the tissue , which enhances natural flavours & minimises off-flavours from oxidised natural fats/oils .
Excluding air from around the portion also increases the efficiency of heat transfer in freezing processes.

Cling Wraps just don't cut it.

Thanks Dennis for a good post - "meat" that we eat is a wonderful thing - so complex from a living state to a dead state. The work of chemicals that activate themselves though its life cycle till we eat the meat.

The world is full of miracles !!!

Warrior

Jeffe & Trax,

Thanks for the fruitful discussion in this mysterious world that we are trying to understand.
All for fun and differences we had are nothing personal.

Thanks
Warrior

Of course hydrostatic shock is for real. It happens when you throw the plugged in hair drier into the bathtub.

i see my ex-wife is still up to her old tricks

are we all in...all out...all done....finally?

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
are we all in...all out...all done....finally?

Touting for P9 ????

The term "hydrostatic shock" itself, is an oxymoron.
"hydrodynamic shock " would be the more appropriate term to describe the theory.

Water in Newtonian,- its viscocity does not change with increase or decrease in agitation speed.
Ballistic gel is Non Newtonian- dilitant [shear thickening]. Its viscosity increases with increase in agitation speed.
Blood is Non Newtonian- speudoplastic [shear thining.] Its viscosity decreases with increase in agitation speed.

Shooting water jugs and/or blocks of ballistic gel. are far from being ideal simulation models for attempting to prove that there is an hydrostatic shock effect that incapacitates an animal.

quote:

The term "hydrostatic shock" itself, is an oxymoron.
"hydrodynamic shock " would be the more appropriate term to describe the theory.

Water in Newtonian,- its viscocity does not change with increase or decrease in agitation speed.
Ballistic gel is Non Newtonian- dilitant [shear thickening]. Its viscosity increases with increase in agitation speed.
Blood is Non Newtonian- speudoplastic [shear thining.] Its viscosity decreases with increase in agitation speed.

Shooting water jugs and/or blocks of ballistic gel. are far from being ideal simulation models for attempting to prove that there is an hydrostatic shock effect that incapacitates an animal

Someone has been paying attention

Nor are stacks of wet newsprint !

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
are we all in...all out...all done....finally?

looks like a death rattle

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
are we all in...all out...all done....finally?

I think I may have posted on this thread about five years ago. Screw it, I aint goin back through it all to find out..