quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
right ghubert but, shooting an animal through the lungs by design will, if not immediately,, then soon thereafter restrict oxygenation of blood and thus impede the CNS by helping to shut down the brain.

so, not sure if lungs are attached as you say to any CNS structures but certainly a large player in the CNS ops system.

I agree with you but the point, and what Finman seems to have missed, is we are not talking about the short dash and drop thing but the DRT poleaxed effect.

The problem I have with the wave propagating into the CNS theory is that there is not much for it to propagate through. I wonder if it is more to do with a piece of heart or lung tissue being thrown against the spine or a transmission along the carotid arteries damaging a region in the brain.

I know a few are allergic to complexity but I hope they will bear with me or find another thread as this is an interesting topic. I've never been able to find any physical damage to the brain on dissection but I didn't really expect to see anything with the naked eye.

It would be great if a medically trained person could examine the brain, especially the brain stem, of an animal that drops to the shot.

Doc, Steve?

Hydrostatic shock plays almost no role in killing game animals. It ranks right up there in killing game with "ft lbs of energy".

It's fun to look at the numbers but reality doesn't bear them out. The frontal diameter of a bullet is far too small to deliver lethal hydrostatic shock...ditto for energy. Ask any wounded game animal that escaped and lived to tell about it.

When a gallon jug of water explodes when shot with a fast moving bullet, that is due to hydrostatic shock--pressure transmitted thru a liquid or semi-solid. An arrow of the same diameter will not cause such an explosion.
One must have penetration to get to the vitals, but the more energy the bullet has when it gets there, the worse the damage done--ie the quicker the death, in general.

Hydrostatic, hydrodynamic either way it very real. As mentioned with the 50 cal on personell and magnafied with 25mm the effects are undeniable. Draw a circle with a 25mm diameter. Place that on your chest. Now tell me is that is big enough to, without expanding, sever your head and shoulder from your body while simultaniuosly spreading your intestintines 40 feet behind you? And as for consistancy, it might be diffrent parts according to POI, but there are always parts! The water HAS to go somewhere, and the faster it gets out of the way, the more damage it does.

I have no doubt about what the 50BMG does to people but deer must be put together a lot better. Last year I, along with a couple friend took a 50BMG out to shoot a few deer to see what would happen. One of the guys shot two at between 100 and 150 yards and in both cases I had to finish both deer with a 30-06 because they were trying to crawl off. They were both hit in the body and there didn't appear to be any type of hydrostatic shock at work, only a very heavy non-expanding bullet that passed through the deer causing minimal damage. I would be interested in hearing from anyone else who has tried this to see if it is a common occurence. I would not have believed it had I not saw it with my own eyes.

quote:

They were both hit in the body and there didn't appear to be any type of hydrostatic shock at work,

I have done the same thing with a .375 H&H ....very little expansion of the bullet.....IMO jacket way too thick for light skinned animals.

IMO to effect shock, the bullet must upset quickly but stay together and then push lots of fluid ahead of it.

That has also been my experience with the 300 grain bullet in the 375 H&H, while the 270 grain spitzer is devastating on deer.

A gallon water jug does not approximate a living big game animal. I've never shot a big game animal that exploded. There is much more elasticity and room for expansion in an animal body cavity than in a water jug. The chest area has plenty of room for expansion...just take a deep breath and see for yourself.

All this is fun to talk about but any experienced hunter will tell you the numbers don't match reality. Here's an example, I've shot quite a number of Sitka Blacktails with a 338 WM and 225 grain bullets. Those little deer might weigh 100 pounds or so on the hoof.

I've yet to see one explode and supposedly my bullet is hitting the beast with close to 4,000 ft lbs of energy. By all rights, if all that energy was being transferred to the deer, the hydrostatic shock from the impact should lift it off its feet and literally throw it through the air. I mean really, a 100 pound deer vs 4,000 ft lbs of energy? Obviously, something is going on here.

I'm honestly not trying to be a jackass, I just don't buy the hydrostatic shock and energy transfer theory...it just doesn't match what I've witnessed in the field. I'm not saying there isn't SOME hydrostatic shock or energy transfer or that different bullet designs won't deliver more or less of it to the animal but I am saying it isn't significant. If it was we wouldn't be discussing it...it would be as plain and obvious as gravity or any other force we observe in action.

Hard plastic jugs are not elastic, but are good to demonstrate the effects of "hydrostatic force". Deer and people don't "explode" because they're skin is very elastic. Muscle (heart), great vessels, and lungs less so (lungs are elastic, but are usually near their outer limits of expansion in living animals). If you get the bullet to expend all 3-4000 ft.lbs within the chest, that deer is not gonna go very far. If the 50 BMG FMJ punches a .50 hole thru the deer and continues on for 2 miles, it may not be very efficient for the purpose. Rifle Bullets that fail to expand on deer sized game will nearly always exit and deposit their energy elsewhere.

quote:

I've never shot a big game animal that exploded.

Take a 220 Swift after prairie dogs once!

There is very definately something going on. The shock effect in killing is very apparent when switching bullet types and caliber with same game animal targets. The one thing about shooting turkey in a group is the ability to see the effects of different bullets and calibers and velocities. If shock was not an issue then why would animals consistantly expire faster with a faster and more frangible bullet? And why would a cirtain bullet kill a turkey without blowing it up and without it twitching and even closing its eyes while another bullet blows it up and it flaps around for several minutes then another with a horrendous wound flies away and dies as it lands? The thing is, different bullets produce a rather uncany consistancy in terminal effects on game. I've seen the look of shock on a critters face when hit throught the shoulders my a small and medium velocity bullet (it was a small critter). That nervous shock - it was in the facial reaction.

I met a man who had been shot three times in the chest by an AK47. The first shot dropped him to the ground and the other two shots were fired into his chest by the man standing over him (almost over him). He says it was like being hit by a hammer in the chest.
Then I read about a man who in the heat of battle was grazed by an AK47 round on the cheek - this was a big strong man in the SAS and yet he went down and was incapacitated for a short while until he regained his senses and stopped the bleeding then carried on with the battle. He was alone at his post and had to hold the attackers off. (A neck shot killed him a while later). Thing is, there is no way the cheek graze could have delivered any 'hydrostatic shock' to his brain or anywhere else. (Unless the graze was actually a cheekbone 'graze'?)

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
Hard plastic jugs are not elastic, but are good to demonstrate the effects of "hydrostatic force". Deer and people don't "explode" because they're skin is very elastic. Muscle (heart), great vessels, and lungs less so (lungs are elastic, but are usually near their outer limits of expansion in living animals). If you get the bullet to expend all 3-4000 ft.lbs within the chest, that deer is not gonna go very far. If the 50 BMG FMJ punches a .50 hole thru the deer and continues on for 2 miles, it may not be very efficient for the purpose. Rifle Bullets that fail to expand on deer sized game will nearly always exit and deposit their energy elsewhere.

People do seem to explode when hit with 50cal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2kNeNd0Qj8&NR=1

You guys crack me up.

A 50 BMG is in a whole nuther category due to its mass and frontal diameter and I agree it will blow people up....just like varmints with frangible bullets.

Again, we can give all kinds of examples based on bullet construction, diameter, and velocity. Obviously, some shock and energy is being transferred to the animal but I submit to you it isn't signifcant and won't be sufficient to kill an animal. Because if it was it would be painfully obvious to all of us...just like rifle recoil.

I don't see many posts here titled "Rifle Recoil-Myth or Fact?" If hydrostatic shock was all some people make it out to be there would be far fewer wounded animals escaping...and soldiers too.

A dinky 100 pound deer couldn't possibly survive being hit with roughly 4,000 ft lbs of energy. Whether that hit was through the shoulder, chest, guts, backside or in the cheekbone. 4,000 ft lbs of energy and the resultant hydrostatic shock would have to simply overwhelm it. Yet it doesn't...over and over again with boring monotony. That's enough to convince me there ain't much to hydrostatic shock or energy transfer. I'm not denying it's existence...I just don't believe it's significant. If it was...it would be apparent to all of us and we wouldn't be posting about it here. Just the view from my seat on the bus...

Your are right sep. It's there but not always that apparent but sometimes we see its effects. Then we see a wound so horrific yet the critter carried on like nothing happened! On another occasion we see a 'going out like a switch was turned off' when there was 'obviously' no shock. That's why were are interested in this thread!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
The term comes up regularly.....I've seen deer knocked down immediately and after a few seconds get up and run off....is this from hydrostatic shock temporarily blocking out the brain?

Does Hydrostatic shock play a roll in very large game such as ele?

Is it important or merely a result of ancillary items that comes from using modern centerfore rifles?

I shot a deer once with a 300 weatherby, 309 bore, 26 inch stainless barrel, winchester fire formed brass, 180 nosler partition at 3300+ fps and lost the near and off side shoulder! Just torn to shreds. Near shoulder pretty much came away on its own when butchering him.

Part of "hydrostatic shock" is caused by secondary projectiles from bone and bullet frags. Ive only killed one elephant but did use a relatively high velocity ctg. (450 dakota), 450 NF FN at 2550 fps and 465 TCCI (A Square) RN at 2500 fps. We cut skull into sections and the FN deffinately made a larger hole than the RN.

There was a lot of blood in the skull of the cow. So hydrostatic shock was probably transmitted to brain. Dont know about bulls.

Andy

It's for real all right, but it aint' a killer!!!
Every zap on a kidney stone is in the 3-5kj region and there is no tissue or other damage to the patient.

This could be beneficial info for you all. If you will connect with Barnes (either website or phone)they will send you a free DVD that includes some discussion and video footage appropiate to this thread. The discussion is based on the soft tissue (hydraulic effect) that initiates the upset or expansion of the hollow point that opens up the bullet into their "X" petals, and the shock value will be VERY visible to you, as this is not just slow-motion, but SUPER slow-mo and is incredible. Now, this would most likely be the same results with most bullets, but is part and parcel of their pitch. Internals, being soft and vulnerable, are usually just liquified and will be VERY well demonstrated by this footage of a good kill of a good whitetail buck, in this particular case, by a Barnes pill. Again, this same thing happens with your favorite bullet, but since we all process info better with good visuals, I'm certain you will all like this video to help digest all of this discussion. You can shoot 1000 critters from 10yds to 1000yds and never see precisely what the shock value is all about until you watch this footage captured by them.
Good discussion though...keep it up.

.

i worked many years as an argentine air force surgeon ,and we studied terminal balistics of some military alibers ,never demostrated the hydrostactic sho"In support of his claim, Dr. Fackler
argued that a lithotriptor (a medical
device used to break up kidney stones
with sonic pressure waves) produces no
damage to soft tissues. Since a
lithotriptor produces pressure waves
larger than those caused by most
handgun bullets, he concluded that
ballistic pressure waves cannot damage
tissue either.[11] However, Fackler’s
claim by analogy has been disproven.
Tissue damage due to lithotriptors has
been widely documented."[

Parallels with Blast (Explosions)
A shock wave can be created when fluid
is rapidly displaced by an explosive or
projectile. Duncan MacPherson, a
member of the defunct International
Wound Ballistics Association and author
of the book, Bullet Penetration, claimed
that shock waves cannot result from
bullet impacts with tissue.[9] In contrast,
Brad Sturtevant, a leading researcher in
shock wave physics at Caltech for many
decades, found that shock waves can
result from handgun bullet impacts in
tissue.[15] Other sources also indicate
that ballistic impacts can create shock
waves in tissue.[16][17][18]
Blast and ballistic pressure waves have
physical similarities. They also have
similarities in how they cause neural
effects in the brain. In tissue, both types
of pressure waves have similar
magnitudes, duration, and frequency
characteristics. Both have been shown
to cause damage in the area of the brain
known as the hippocampus.[19][20][21] It
has been hypothesized that both can
reach the brain from the thoracic cavity
via major blood vessels.
For example, Ibolja Cernak, a leading
researcher in blast wave injury at the
Applied Physics Laboratory at Johns
Hopkins University, hypothesized,
"alterations in brain function following
blast exposure are induced by kinetic
energy transfer of blast overpressure via
great blood vessels in abdomen and
thorax to the central nervous system."[22]
This hypothesis is supported by
observations of neural effects in the
brain from localized blast exposure
focused on the lungs in animal
experiments.[20]

Remote Pressure Wave Effects in the
Spine and Internal Organs
The brain is not the only organ subject
to remote pressure wave effects. In a
study of handgun injury, Sturtevant
found that pressure waves from a bullet
impact in the torso can reach the spine.
Moreover, a focusing effect from
concave surfaces can concentrate the
pressure wave on the spinal cord,
producing significant injury.[15] This is
consistent with other work showing
remote spinal cord injuries from ballistic
impacts.[38][39]
A group at Johns Hopkins University
(Roberts et al.) has published both
experimental work and finite element
modeling showing considerable
pressure wave magnitudes in the
thoracic cavity produced by handgun
projectiles stopped by a Kevlar
vest.[16][17] For example, an 8 gram
projectile at 360 m/s impacting a NIJ
level II vest over the sternum can
produce an estimated pressure wave
level of nearly 2.0 MPa (300 PSI) in the
heart and of nearly 1.5 MPa (220 PSI) in
4
the lungs. Impacting over the liver can
produce an estimated pressure wave
level of 2.0 MPa (300 PSI) in the liver.

It is unclear when "hydrostatic shock"
was first used to describe bullet effects,
but Frank Chamberlin, a World War II
trauma surgeon and ballistics
researcher, noted remote pressure
wave effects. Col. Chamberlin
described “explosive effects” and
“hydraulic reaction” of bullets in tissue:
. . . liquids are put in motion by ‘shock
waves’ or hydraulic effects . . . with liquid
filled tissues, the effects and destruction of
tissues extend in all directions far beyond
the wound axis. [1]ck .We didnt worked with rifles over the 308.

You da man, Juan Pozzi. roger

quote:

Our problem in this comes from errors in terminology used.

Very true indeed. As soon as we start making up terminology, to suit that which we try to express, we will be misunderstood. We should, within a technical field, always try to find the right words.

juanpozzi:

quote:

For example, an 8 gram
projectile at 360 m/s impacting a NIJ
level II vest over the sternum can
produce an estimated pressure wave
level of nearly 2.0 MPa (300 PSI) in the
heart and of nearly 1.5 MPa (220 PSI) in
4
the lungs.

The speed of sond in water/tissue is 1,484 m/s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound)

So what can a 8gram projectile at 360m/s have to do with hydrostatic pressure???

Without the source references i dont see how the massive quote can have any merit?

Oh and by the way, a good punch to the belley will deliver more force to the liver and lungs, but again no hydrostatic pressure/force!

quote:

Originally posted by Quintus:
Hydrostatic, hydrodynamic either way it very real. As mentioned with the 50 cal on personell and magnafied with 25mm the effects are undeniable. Draw a circle with a 25mm diameter. Place that on your chest. Now tell me is that is big enough to, without expanding, sever your head and shoulder from your body while simultaniuosly spreading your intestintines 40 feet behind you? And as for consistancy, it might be diffrent parts according to POI, but there are always parts! The water HAS to go somewhere, and the faster it gets out of the way, the more damage it does.

Quintus,
How did you suddenly jump from a half inch projectile to a one inch projectile. Why not just jump to an 8 incher???

Alot of good info here, not read all posts in detail.

That said, I will add if not mentioned, someone did some post mortem exams of either dead pigs/goats in ballistic studies, or perhaps it was soldiers in Vietnam.

None the less, I recall reading that findings showed valves inside blood vessels were blown that affect blood flow/direction/timing when high speed bullets impacted imparting said H. Shock.

There are many reasons for death by bullets. Death and/or an animal dropping can be due to many reasons, many/all already mentioned. Just wanted to add the above if it's not been mentioned.

Interesting discussing, though as I get older, I try thinking more simplistic....

Proper bullet + penetrating vitals hopefully w/expansion = typically spells 'game over'...

Dramatic visual effects while varmint shooting and/or say hitting filled milk jugs and such as I love to do, is often enhanced w/combo of high speed, frangible bullets, and even increased rate of rifling twist.

I.E. at 200 yds, my 120s or similar 6.5s do nicely on jugs, yet a 6mm 70 TNT at higher speed via a BR or 243 at a few hundred feet higher fps, 'Enhances' terminal effects.

No doubt on say game - lung shots broadside, I'd concur a similar increase in soft tissue destruction is had, though one must consider if a 'soft target' is not presented, some bullet/speed combo's are less effective or ineffective.

buy a 300 ultramag shoot a deer at 50yds then tell me there is no such thing as hydrodynamic shock.Until u see what happens don t comment on this.I shoot a deer ar 45yds thru the lungs,it blew its butt hole out and blew all the hide away from its hole chest area.At close range blood lose has nothing to do with them dropping dead like shot by lighting 17 for 17.I like my ulra mag for close range they will not take a s step.Like shoting a woodchuck witn a 22.250.Dead instantly hydrodynamic shock.

quote:

Originally posted by randy hodder:
buy a 300 ultramag shoot a deer at 50yds

No thanks. I don't see the point.

Interesting thread

I'm not so sure about the extent of "hydraulic shock" transmission via the blood system at all.
no doubt the energy transfer in a shot is variable
no doubt the animals reaction to being shot is variable.

I have always put down non-CNS instantaneous collapse to sensory overload type "shock'.
the more tissue damage the more messages from more nerve endings to overload the brain.
Mitigated by the State of mind of the animal at bullet strike.
ie
alarmed & receiving a burst of adrenalin just before bullet strike or passive.

some animals of the same type & size are just tougher than others.

I have extensive experience in using a 12 gauge powerhead .
- object is a spinal neck surface contact with both pellets & gas entering the body, with the gas volume & velocity doing the damage the pellets are just super-numerary & their size is totally irrellevant.
The physiological object is separation of the vertebrae & snapping of the spinal cord BY the GAS.
large pellets exiting the far side of a smaller animal reduce the effectiveness as it provides an exit for the gas & reduces pressure & expansion of body tissue.

done right =DRT.............
miss by 3" & its a mess but no DRT.

...........now the Gas velocity considerably exceeds projectile velocity & pressure far exceeds any concept of hydraulic shock from projectile impact & passage, or fragmentation.

BUT despite near proximity to the brain at the "powerhead strike site" a near miss on the spinal column does not cause "brain hydraulic shock", despite far greater pressure & velocity at the impact site, & no DRT result.

How does one explain this
basically there is no significant "hydraulic shock"
there is no significant organs with concentrations of nerve endings in the vicinity of the impact , hence no sensory overload as a result of tissue damage.

on the other hand an animal shot in the chest & fore-gut has a bunch of sensitive organs at the impact site & nearby which even if not damaged by the bullet strike will be subjected to the cavitation "pressure" wave of the projectile & transmit sensory messages to the brain.lots of organs & nerves sending messages at the same time.
The result is sensory overload & collapse followed by exanguination.

More.........
I have shot 10's of thousands of large tuna in the head with a 22RF at point plank range.
They go into shock & will revive in approx 30 seconds if their brain is not "excised" within that time & then deliberately exanguinated by severing specific vein & artery groups while the heart is still beating.They then have their spinal column "reamed" from head to tail.
.............those nerves are still functional until "reamed" & react as they are "reamed".

Said tuna were at different times shot with 22MRF;222Rem,243W;308W............no different result.
No air in them anywhere near the impact site...........all tissue or water.
( significant water volume in the gill cavity )

........so much for REAL "Hydraulic shock".



There is "Shock"
but its shock as in sensory overload.

Game animals exactly the same IMHO.
sensory overload causing collapse followed by exanguination from impact damage.

Remembering that autogenous nervous systems do not require brain activity to function........only voluntary nervous systems require viable brain function.........until they exhaust their localised muscle energy stores........... normally re-supplied by the blood stream.

when not exhausted by muscle activity those localised energy stores enable & cause muscle to go into rigor.
( the primary energy source being adenosine triphosphate ATP &).

Don't know whether that will contribute to the discussion or confuse.........He He.

.

quote:

Originally posted by randy hodder:
buy a 300 ultramag shoot a deer at 50yds then tell me there is no such thing as hydrodynamic shock.Until u see what happens don t comment on this.I shoot a deer ar 45yds thru the lungs,it blew its butt hole out and blew all the hide away from its hole chest area.At close range blood lose has nothing to do with them dropping dead like shot by lighting 17 for 17.I like my ulra mag for close range they will not take a s step.Like shoting a woodchuck witn a 22.250.Dead instantly hydrodynamic shock.

Lets part beard and snot!

Hydrostatic shock is something moving through a liquid faster than the speed of sound in said liquid.
Hydrodynamic shock is another beast all together and not what is discussed here!

Roy Weatherby stated many years ago that his rifles produced more velocity and thus the "Hydrostatic or Hydrulic Shock" took place inside the animal and killed it faster.

I only know that I have seen my results on big game animals that were shot with lighter than norm bullets and they did in fact have their vitals turned to soup. Example was a whitetail deer shot with a .300 Win mag at 50yds with a 150 grn bullet. It messed that deer up all to hell and back!

I have also seen to much velocity turn jacketed bullets inside out. So I certainly do believe that their is such a thing as Hydrostatic Shock!
Now ask me if I care one way or another, the answer is certainly NOT. I know what works for me caliber wise and bullet wise.

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

Well define it!

Living tissues are solids,

(other than bone, claw/horn/, and teeth) I, and anyone that's taken AT LEAST sophemore highschool phyics or science class disagree. Semi-solids, at best.. dense liquids is closer to correct.

Since the human body is made of what, 75% water, and is NOT in a frozen state, at least 75% of the human is, patently, a liquid. It aint ice, now, is it?

can call it a gel (still a liquid), it aint solid (other than bone/teeth/horns/claws) no more than its a gas.

leaves holes? actualy, dr, it destorys TISSUE, which has some containment. but those holes generally IMMEDIATELY backfill from.. FLOW...

let's talk solids.. solids don't tend to flow (other than granular, like sand) and reshape to environment. Shoot a tube of butter, or clay... what happens? there's a hole, that the LIQUID flows back into to fill.. sure, there's a hole.. but if you shot a solid, like, oh, BONE or WOOD, it won't flow back, now, will it?

ALF......Now don't go bad mouthing Roy Weatherby OK! He did produce several calibers that are holding their own today. I know a 65 year old man who used his .460-Weatherby to great success while being a PH in Africa. The .257-Weatherby was also a big crowd pleaser. Not to mention his .300 Weatherby and .340-Weatherby.

Americans are not mad either savvy! Guys like myself may be a little crazy but not stupid as to purchase "snake oil" Now what the hell is it you do for a living anyway? Please don't tell me your a PH either.

quote:

Well define it!

Since this is my thread, let me clarify what I was getting at....by hydrostatic shock I was referring to any transfer of bullet energy to the brain or other parts of the central nervous system that hastened death.

This includes large damage to other body parts that are affected much the same way a gallon of water might be "blown up" by a bullet hitting it and instead of making a hole, blows the vessel apart due to hydraulic forces exerted by the water.....

So....continue from there please.

.

ALF I think I have met your father! Not positive but if you have a bother who runs a crock farm in Africa, I am damn sure about this fact. Other wise you can tell me what you really do for a living.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Tissues are solids ! They behave and function as solids, their state of matter is defined to the behaviour of solid matter !

Alf,
I suggest you revisit the basics.
here's a primer for you

quote:

Single crystalline form of solid Insulin.Solid is one of the three classical states of matter (the others being gas and liquid). It is characterized by structural rigidity and resistance to changes of shape or volume. Unlike a liquid, a solid object does not flow to take on the shape of its container, nor does it expand to fill the entire volume available to it like a gas does. The atoms in a solid are tightly bound to each other, either in a regular geometric lattice (crystalline solids, which include metals and ordinary water ice) or irregularly (an amorphous solid such as common window glass).

in other words, sir, BONES are solids.. muscle and organs ARENT.. they are closer to jelly than solid.. and jelly aint solid, sir.

muscle, sir, could not function, if a solid. they couldn't contract.

physics, not make believe.

quote:

Originally posted by Blue Dog:
ALF......Now don't go bad mouthing Roy Weatherby OK! He did produce several calibers that are holding their own today. I know a 65 year old man who used his .460-Weatherby to great success while being a PH in Africa. The .257-Weatherby was also a big crowd pleaser. Not to mention his .300 Weatherby and .340-Weatherby.

Blue Dog,

Roy Weatherby started the velocity fad in the States in 1945 when set up his company. He created an entire line of custom cartridges based on a niche that he created for himself and that was to develop and ready the market with a family of high-speed cartridges. That was basically a new thing, and he positioned himself there to create sales and earn his living. Nothing wrong with that.

However, where I differ with his statement of "my cartridges hit harder at all ranges' is the fact that high velocity can be self-destructive at shorter ranges as the bullets during his time were soft and frangible, prone to fragmentation and shattering. Wby's are essentially long-distance tools. The velocity is the tool so to speak to get the bullet to the target. Bullet performance is closely tied to impact velocity, and so it is rather silly to say the bullet hits harder at all ranges when bullet performance is compromised. You see the more 'standard' calibers of the time were actually better at short to medium range in terms of bullet performance.

This has changed somewhat today in that mostly premium bullets are loaded in Wby ammo to yield better performance as opposed to shooting the old conventional lead-core bullets. Meat damage and bruising is still largely an issue with Softs, such as the Nosler Partitions and the like that are not bonded.

The velocity race is not over yet, I mean after Roy's heyday. We have seen just in the last decade a proliferation of high-velocity cartridges with the likes of Remington creating the RUM's and some others too. Winchester also climbed on the bandwagon - they brought out the 7 mm STW that is extinct now, and then the WSM's and after that the WSSM's. Dakota did the same stunt with their family of cartridges that they based on the 404 case. Then we have the Lazzeronis, and a host of wildcats to gain yet more velocity than what the parent case could offer. Alf's reference to the velocity craze is essentially correct and supported by what actually happened in the USA.

Velocity does not kill ... it is the way the bullet performs and its threshold strength that becomes important and impact velocity plays the main role. Cartridge selection and choice is about horses for courses.

Warrior

I shot a pronghorn antelope about 35 years ago, he was running and I hit him well back of the diaphragm. The shot still resulted in an instant kill. I don't believe it was hydrostatic shock or hydraulic fluids it was just plain traumatic shock. 7 mag with 140 gr. bullet left a large wound but no damage to the diaphragm or any vital organs.

.