True...a guy can post a pic here of a giant anything and be lucky to get one full page of chit-chat.

Ravenr used to start a thread every year “show us the one” but each year it gets smaller and smaller.

I do remember what this forum used to be like nearly 6 years ago.

Do you remember it years ago being different?

Or were the good old days of AR not really what I remember?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

ballastic gel.. is a LIQUID. made up of water and either a plastic or a protien.. There is NO structure to it, no crystals, it flows, it moves, and it.. taadaa leaves holes when shot.

actually,it is more like an colloid gel ,[that by weight consist mostly of liquid].... Ballistic gel reverts back to the liquid state when heated. ...

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Interesting how;
solid particles can be suspended/held in fluids & liquids
Fluids & liquids can be held in fluids [blood in muscle,water in sponge,air in lung]

SUSPENSION.

Fluid

Liquid.

According to the laws of Physics,the marble,margarine,air,water,ice, muscle,organs,skin,glass,metals,plastics- are all fluids.

Which is why I mentioned the marble and margarine in the first place. To some extent, as fluids, they may be able to transmit energy in wave form from where it is input to some other site. The question of course, is how much of the energy is transmitted, and how much is "absorbed" (for lack of a better handy term) in the process of transmission...just as in engineering the flow of water or even electricity from one place to another.

FACT: Some types of energy wave will travel through fluids, but not through any liquid medium.

oh 7 pages now....jeeez

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

quote:

When a bullet travels through an animal, flesh displaces-flows around the bullet and between the cutting petals, no?
Bullet construction materials flow when a bullet deforms/expands.
Copper jackets stretch and flow to support the softer mushrooming lead core.
Soft lead flows beyond the support of the jacket and gets torn off.

Warrior

So essentially,

An "FN solid copper bullet" is not really a solid.

It deforms/flows as does the animal tissue, making them both fluids, albiet, each with different levels of fluidity[ability to flow] or viscosity[resistance to flow].

quote:

An "FN solid copper bullet" is not really a solid.

At high velocity we could vaporize the solid bullet.
Could we then say that the solid is actually a vapour.
So its final form is then actually a vapour?
Since we cannot see the vapour, could we say that the bullet actually does not exist?
Since the bullet does not exist, what are we discussing then?
So this hole discussion is a non event !!!



Warrior

PS: Ruk ons nie nou die hol uit die hoender uit nie .... of dalk die dam onder die eend uit nie?

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

quote:

An "FN solid copper bullet" is not really a solid.

At high velocity we could vaporize the solid bullet.
Could we then say that the solid is actually a vapour.
So its final form is then actually a vapour?
Since we cannot see the vapour, could we say that the bullet actually does not exist?
Since the bullet does not exist, what are we discussing then?
So this hole discussion is a non event !!!



Warrior

PS: Ruk ons nie nou die hol uit die hoender uit nie .... of dalk die dam onder die eend uit nie?

In the real world, we dont run "FN copper solids" to an vel. that causes them to vaporise,
however, we do regularly run them [and other types of projectile construction&design], to velocities that cause them to deform/flow, revealing their fluid behavior,
...and the consequent fluid behavior of animal tissue.

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:
So you're telling me that a 100 gr Barnes TSX at 3650 fps. or a 185 gr 338 TSX at 3,400 fps, at 50 yds ain't gonna yield blood shot meat. I'd be a bettin' man on that one.
GWB

Geedubya,

Bullet fragmentation and shattering like in soft frangible bullets are obviously the main culprit when it comes to bruising and bloodshot meat. Then secondly, high velocity is the next in line for causing the damage as it dicipates its energy quicker per unit time and thus causing larger bruising than the much slower bullet. Comparisons can be made to demonstrate this easily with a 7x57 vs a 7mm STW where there is a good 600 to 700 fps difference, using the same Barnes-X bullet.

Those that used the 7 mm STW can attest to the severe mess it makes at shorter ranges.

Warrior

Warrior,

If I'm reading GW's quote correctly, he is saying the same thing. The TSX will make a mess at those velocities.

We may need a new thread on liquids vs solids!

Scott,

I am done with this liquids vs solids business.

More important is what our bullets do or don't. For example:

1. Go monolithic for less meat bruising
2. Go for premium bonded to avoid shattering tendencies of frail bullets
3. Go for a slower and heavier bullet for less damage, or
4. Keep the bullet off the shoulder, especially if impact velocity is going to be high (if you can avoid it)

In the bush where one can easily lose animals, I try to go for heart-shots rather than behind the shoulder shots and accept more damage as a measure of safety as a default position. Having said, that I use my 9,3 x62 at a modest 2,280 fps with 286 gr bullets, and not my 300 H&H that is intended for long range hunting. I do not buy into a one rifle solution for all terrain.

Warrior

I agree. My property is heavily wooded in East Texas. The longest shot I have is probably 125 yards. For hunting there, nothing is better than my CZ Full Stock 6.5x55 with a 155 Mega at about 2450 fps (sorry Mackey).

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Bullet fragmentation and shattering like in soft frangible bullets are obviously the main culprit when it comes to bruising and bloodshot meat.
Warrior

i disagree ..
i've had bloodshot meat from solids .. anyone with any experience has.

back to the shock question.. i dunno if the phrase is accurate, but there is something to it.

most blood shoot effect is due to velocity, as your example of 7x57 v 7mag shows..

i have NEVER had bloodshot meat from 45/70 typpe loads, with rem405s about 1400fps...

and have had serious issue with 300gr solids in a 416 over 2600fps (yes, 300gr .416s... when one has a lathe, he can cut down barnes solids to whatever weight he wants)

bullet expansion has very little to do with bloodshot meat..

saw a wildebeast shot last month .. 300wsm in the shoulder ... i was surprised at how little bloodshot there was.. on a deer, it would have ruin the entire shoulder...

.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
oh 7 pages now....jeeez

Looks like we are headed to 8!

do i hear a 9 from anybody? 9 9 9 9 going once, going twice

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
do i hear a 9 from anybody? 9 9 9 9 going once, going twice

SOLD!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
1. Go monolithic for less meat bruising
2 Go for premium bonded to avoid shattering tendencies of frail bullets
3. Go for a slower and heavier bullet for less damage, or
4. Keep the bullet off the shoulder, especially if impact velocity is going to be high (if you can avoid it)...warrior

Well, he got " 1 of the above " correct. Must admit that is a VAST improvement over most of his Pitiful and Pathetic posts.

quote:

from alf:
I have learnt a lot on AR but this thread takes the cake ! This should be put on America's funniest home movies

I do AGREE that alf's posts should be on "America's funniest home movies".

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
"Bloodshot meat" ! Another one of those popular urban myths bandied around in the lay gun press

One bullet fired from a certain gun causing "bloodshot meat" and another not !

Lets see now:

Is the bloodshot meat a direct result of a physical trait of that particular bullet / velocity or is it the result of post injury reaction of a living target to the insult.

ie post shot artefact caused by the fact that the living organism has an intact blood pressure ?

Do you get "bloodshot meat" if the same bullet is fired into a dead animal ?

if the steak is attached to the live animal and you shoot a bullet through it do you get the same bloodshot effect as when the steak has been removed from the animal ie now "dead" ?

The typical Forensics science problem, was the animal alive when it was shot or was it dead when the shot was taken ? and how can we tell the difference if any ?

Brings us back the the issue of "bloodshot meat"

As to solids and fluids and the definition of flow.... what can i say the rape of the description of our physical world continues !

I have learnt a lot on AR but this thread takes the cake ! This should be put on America's funniest home movies

.

Good post Alf!
<--------R watching out for HC

HA!

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
what can i say the rape of the description of our physical world continues !

I have learnt a lot on AR but this thread takes the cake !

oh, the irony

We are having fun right here - right here in our sand pit.
Part of the fun here is to see that Hot Core is not sharing any information.
What we also experience here is that Hot Core is like a naughty kid, throwing sand in our eyes.
We can learn a lot here from each other, especially if we take the advice from those that specialize in a particular field.

What Alf is witnessing here is what I see regularly in the boardroom, the lack of accountancy skills/knowledge by good and well-meaning entrepreneurial business people. And yes, then you have to make a correction as if I don't, then there will be unintended consequences. The point is we all have our own field of work or specialization, and we just cannot know it all because we engage in a certain activity. What applies to business people also apply to us hunters.

So let us learn from each other.

Warrior

So, what the answer?

Is it real or not?

Does anyone even remember the question?

I don't think they did AS.

Or even the more fundamental question of what phenomenon causes instant dropping and death from a non-cns shot.

This thread has me so confused. Can someone tell me if this is a liquid or solid?

Solid, then liquid, then makes a godawful racket.

All flesh is a 'soft' solid - both animal and human.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
All flesh is a 'soft' solid - both animal and human.

Warrior

yeah.. soft.. as in mostly liquid... or viscoelastic..

Damn Scottfromdallas,

That is not a liquid or solid, that's a condition.
Called a Heart Attack

Cheers, John

Jeffe,

Yes, but mostly liquid is very misleading; living tissue is NOT a fluid.

Why? Because, Flesh does not behave like water, it is more complex. The water contained in flesh is housed intra-cellular, in boundary form, and not like water that can flow freely or close up. So, the flow regime of water is fundamentally very different to flesh when hit by a bullet.

When a jug of water is shot at high velocity it will explode, unlike an animal who contains much more water than say a 2 gallon jug, because the biomechanical properties of flesh are different.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
...When a jug of water is shot at high velocity it will explode, unlike an animal who contains much more water than say a 2 gallon jug, because the biomechanical properties of flesh are different. warrior

Any of you P-Dog shooters believe that?????

.

Shooting five water jugs:

http://youtu.be/O681-KtiYKM

I have never seen an antelope react this way.
Elk shot by Hot Core would explode though.

Warrior

I guess its a good word and helps explanation wise, and its become acceptable in communicating an instant kill with hi vel bullets.

I know a 220 swift at 4000 FPS for instance kills by what some call hydrostatic shock and many call it hydralic shock, and I suppose it is shock of one kind or another, but it probably kills by destroying a tremendous amount of liquid insides, and blood terminals and instantly stops the blood flow to the brain creating shock. That is what kills animals I am told by the vets I deal with daily...

I also know whatever shock you call it does not work very well, if at all on animals like buffalo, Hippo, and elephant, and its even iffy on Zebra, Blue Wildebeest, or Eland, our elk and big bears..It seems to be awesome on smaller lighter antelope with light fast bullets, and awesome on Rockchucks!

.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Jeffe,

Yes, but mostly liquid is very misleading; living tissue is NOT a fluid .

Why? Because, Flesh does not behave like water, it is more complex. The water contained in flesh is housed intra-cellular, in boundary form, and not like water that can flow freely or close up. So, the flow regime of water is fundamentally very different to flesh when hit by a bullet.

When a jug of water is shot at high velocity it will explode, unlike an animal who contains much more water than say a 2 gallon jug, because the biomechanical properties of flesh are different.

Warrior

Why the change?...You previously agreed that tissue displaces/deforms/flows around the body & between the petals of an bullet.
For something to flow it must be a fluid.
True,tissue does not behave exactly like water, for water is different, its both an fluid & liquid.

Put some water,tissue and air [each seperately] in an linear activator and apply equal force to the ram- you will find the air compresses easiest/most,followed by tissue,with water virtually undetectable.

Shooting water jugs is probably not the best method to simulate energy transfer/shockwave through living tissue,
due to the different densities of the two medium.
The water jug dramatically explodes because water is a much more dense/very difficult substance to compress.
Ever wondered why we get "water hammer" in our house pipes?
also, some types of energy wave will travel through fluids, but not through any liquid medium.

Density:

Water at 0 degrees C = 1,000 kg/m^3
Muscle = 1,060 kg/m^3

Densities are very similar - only 6% difference.
But their properties are very different and that is what determines their behaviour due to stress and strain.
Flow regimes are different.

Incidentally, gelatine at 20 degrees C has the very same density as muscle = 1,060 kg/^3, and that is the only similarity it has to muscle ... in density only ... not in behaviour.

Muscle tissue is very complex and very different to water at a micro level and its biomechanical properties, as a living tissue is one of the miracles in the creation that we so easily overlook in terms of its construction and function. Muscle is not a bag of water, and as such, not a fluid like water. Perhaps we should all repeat this 10 times loud.

(From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Muscle is mainly composed of muscle cells. Within the cells are myofibrils; myofibrils contain sarcomeres, which are composed of actin and myosin. Individual muscle fibres are surrounded by endomysium. Muscle fibers are bound together by perimysium into bundles called fascicles; the bundles are then grouped together to form muscle, which is enclosed in a sheath of epimysium. Muscle spindles are distributed throughout the muscles and provide sensory feedback information to the central nervous system.

Skeletal muscle is arranged in discrete muscles, an example of which is the biceps brachii. It is connected by tendons to processes of the skeleton. Cardiac muscle is similar to skeletal muscle in both composition and action, being made up of myofibrils of sarcomeres, but anatomically different in that the muscle fibers are typically branched like a tree and connect to other cardiac muscle fibers through intercalcated discs, and form the appearance of a syncytium.

There are three types of muscle:

Skeletal muscle or "voluntary muscle" is anchored by tendons (or by aponeuroses at a few places) to bone and is used to effect skeletal movement such as locomotion and in maintaining posture. Though this postural control is generally maintained as a subconscious reflex, the muscles responsible react to conscious control like non-postural muscles. An average adult male is made up of 42% of skeletal muscle and an average adult female is made up of 36% (as a percentage of body mass).[3]

Smooth muscle or "involuntary muscle" is found within the walls of organs and structures such as the esophagus, stomach, intestines, bronchi, uterus, urethra, bladder, blood vessels, and the arrector pili in the skin (in which it controls erection of body hair). Unlike skeletal muscle, smooth muscle is not under conscious control.

Cardiac muscle is also an "involuntary muscle" but is more akin in structure to skeletal muscle, and is found only in the heart.

Cardiac and skeletal muscles are "striated" in that they contain sarcomeres and are packed into highly regular arrangements of bundles; smooth muscle has neither. While skeletal muscles are arranged in regular, parallel bundles, cardiac muscle connects at branching, irregular angles (called intercalated discs). Striated muscle contracts and relaxes in short, intense bursts, whereas smooth muscle sustains longer or even near-permanent contractions.

Skeletal muscle is further divided into several subtypes:

Type I, slow oxidative, slow twitch, or "red" muscle is dense with capillaries and is rich in mitochondria and myoglobin, giving the muscle tissue its characteristic red color. It can carry more oxygen and sustain aerobic activity.

Type II, fast twitch muscle, has three major kinds that are, in order of increasing contractile speed:[4]

Type IIa, which, like slow muscle, is aerobic, rich in mitochondria and capillaries and appears red.

Type IIx (also known as type IId), which is less dense in mitochondria and myoglobin. This is the fastest muscle type in humans. It can contract more quickly and with a greater amount of force than oxidative muscle, but can sustain only short, anaerobic bursts of activity before muscle contraction becomes painful (often incorrectly attributed to a build-up of lactic acid). N.B. in some books and articles this muscle in humans was, confusingly, called type IIB.[5]

Type IIb, which is anaerobic, glycolytic, "white" muscle that is even less dense in mitochondria and myoglobin. In small animals like rodents this is the major fast muscle type, explaining the pale color of their flesh.

I hope we can see from the above that muscle is rather different from water and its behaviour.

Warrior

PS: This post has been done for, and dedicated to Hot Core, as a token and reaffirmation that we should some of the time consult the work of others when we run out of an explanation.

Muscles are about 70% water and loose elasticity with diminishing water content[dehydration].

In physics, elasticity is the physical property of a material that returns to its original shape after the stress (e.g. external forces) that made it deform is removed. The relative amount of deformation is called the strain.
Above a certain stress known as the elastic limit or the yield strength of an elastic material, the relationship between stress and strain becomes nonlinear. Beyond this limit, the material may deform irreversibly, exhibiting plasticity. A stress-strain curve is one tool for visualizing this transition.
Some non-Newtonian fluids, such as viscoelastic fluids, will also exhibit elasticity in certain conditions. In response to a small, rapidly applied and removed strain, these fluids may deform and then return to their original shape. Under larger strains, or strains applied for longer periods of time, these fluids may start to flow like a liquid, with some viscosity.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Warrior

Why the change?...You previously agreed that tissue displaces/deforms/flows around the body & between the petals of an bullet...

After you follow enough of alf's and warrior's posts, you realize all they are spreading is total . So, they can be arguing one side and a few pages later go just as WRONG in the opposite direction. Both are Pitiful and Pathetic, and always good for a bunch of s.

It just goes to show that you do not comprehend !!!
You are not concentrating.
FLOW REGIMES ARE DIFFERENT - say this 10 times loud.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Yes, but mostly liquid is very misleading; living tissue is NOT a fluid.

Why? Because, Flesh does not behave like water, it is more complex.
Warrior

chris, you state opinion as fact. most, in fact, all, liquids do not behave like water. in fact, water should not be a liquid at all at room team, but due to hydrogen bonds, its is.

water increases volume when it freezes, decreasing density.. NOTHING else does this,,, that fact alone is why the planet isn't an ice ball.

lots sof properties unique to water over all other liquids, chris.. poor example

so, if you are basing your OPINION that flesh isn't a liquid because it doesn't behave like water, then motor oil isn't a liquid, either.

in other words, perhaps, according to your own words, only those trained in the sciences should discuss this matter.

Which knocks both of us out - and Alf is the last man standing.

We should be lucky that our game does not contain motor oil, heh?

Just the 70% water contained in the flesh that we cannot drink.

Warrior