quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . you must be a little slow on the uptake. Baldry has already said he was acting as Ibi's agent.

To state that Andrew has said that he was, or that he actually was, Ibi’s agent, and to claim that he had authority to speak for and bind Ibi to the terms of any deal ignores or twists the facts and is simply false.

An intermediary is NOT somehow automatically an agent. If that were the case, then we’d all be agents.

Ibi and the client DID communicate directly with each other, precisely because even though Andrew facilitated communications, Andrew did NOT speak for and have authority to bind Ibi.

Ibi’s express approval of everything was clearly always necessary. No mystery there - Ibi was the bloody outfitter, NOT Andrew, and Andrew was NOT his agent!

Ultimately of course, this was evidenced by the inconvenient truths that it was Ibi, NOT Andrew, who signed the contract and received payment of the deposit.

And of course Ibi is the one who did NOT refund the client’s deposit after the deal fell apart because of government ineptitude and third party litigation. Ibi has always had the client’s money, NOT Andrew.

Again, it is the Zambian government, third party litigants and most of all Ibi, who have caused the client’s problems.

It is beyond Andrew’s control to change or affect ANY of that.

Those are the relevant facts, despite all sadly misguided efforts on this thread to make Andrew a scapegoat.

And now, to top it all off, we hear that the client's deposit may be tied up in a Zambian bankruptcy proceeding?

If worse hasn’t yet come to worst, then I’m afraid to find out what worst may be.

As I think we all do, I continue to wish the client the best of luck.

He’s going to need it now more than ever in this matter.

One more time, for those slow on the uptake.

Fulvio and Medved,
You described what Baldry did and admitted to arranging. CME confirmed it.

Of course Baldry "parrots" what the outfitter said. That is what an agent does. He gets info and relays it to the client. That is done so the agent/PH and outfitter are in agreement on what the prices are and the dates. Same for quota agreed upon.

Hence, Baldry acted as an agent. Now, in the USA, the courts would decide Baldry's complicity. On AR, there is no court other than our opinions on the matter.

If you had set up, agreed to guide, sorted the costs and dates, told me where to send the money on a sheep hunt in Yukon - wouldn't you been acting as an agent for the outfitter?

Micheal,
I am not slow on the uptake. I understand what you are re-posting. I do not agree with your position that Andrew is not culpable. That is all. Ibi is the problem. Andrew was the facilitator, whether knowingly or unknowlingly, being ignorant of the law or this deal or the situation that Ibi was in, is a lame excuse. How could sell/facilitate this without "working for" the outfitter???

I never said that Andrew is a "scapegoat". He is not. He is part of the issue. Ibi is the problem. Andrew however is culpable as he facilitated this mess and sold it originally.

For most of the pages on this thread, that has been the issue entirely.... other than my job application to be the next Jerry Springer...

why don’t those with diametrically opposite positions agree to disagree? Not a single opinion on either side has been changed by 40 pages of repetition. Ridiculous….

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
why don’t those with diametrically opposite positions agree to disagree? Not a single opinion on either side has been changed by 40 pages of repetition. Ridiculous….

True but the Gaslighting is what’s crazy….
If it were differences of opinion this would have died..
I believe it’s the complete intentional ignorance and twisting of facts that has created the deep divide.
Andrew was balls deep… period…
So folks won’t ever accept a made up narrative or twisting of details, timelines, or excuses otherwise

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . Baldry has already admitted that he acts as an agent . . .

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

As a freelance hunter, I am often approached by Operators to help sell their quotas and as an intermediary will communicate with all parties to finalize terms and conditions to everyone's satisfaction.

that is not admitting is an agent ... but english is not my first language lol

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Fulvio and Medved,
You described what Baldry did and admitted to arranging. CME confirmed it.

Of course Baldry "parrots" what the outfitter said. That is what an agent does. He gets info and relays it to the client. That is done so the agent/PH and outfitter are in agreement on what the prices are and the dates. Same for quota agreed upon.

Hence, Baldry acted as an agent. Now, in the USA, the courts would decide Baldry's complicity. On AR, there is no court other than our opinions on the matter.

If you had set up, agreed to guide, sorted the costs and dates, told me where to send the money on a sheep hunt in Yukon - wouldn't you been acting as an agent for the outfitter?

it is important to note that a US court has no juridiction over what ĥappened in a different country and we are at disagreeing on what is an agent or not.

in the light of AR court and prosecution i will never do it and dit it in the past when caribou was opened in northern quebec and i did not get any money for that as i asked the clients to deal with the outfitter and request only to be in the camp as i was in charge ... but again luckily our sucess spoke for us ... and it was not huge amount of money ... again Andrew did the same and did not receive a dime from it ... but as i wrote luckily that it did not happen in Texas otherwise Andrew will have hand and dry while others can declare bankprucy for way less issues and legally ... i imagine if Ibi declared bankrupcy in the zambian system it is certainly for the same reasons as anyone in usa ...

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
why don’t those with diametrically opposite positions agree to disagree? Not a single opinion on either side has been changed by 40 pages of repetition. Ridiculous….

out of curiosity what is your take on the whole?

quote:

Originally posted by Kpoynter:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
why don’t those with diametrically opposite positions agree to disagree? Not a single opinion on either side has been changed by 40 pages of repetition. Ridiculous….

True but the Gaslighting is what’s crazy….
If it were differences of opinion this would have died..
I believe it’s the complete intentional ignorance and twisting of facts that has created the deep divide.
Andrew was balls deep… period…
So folks won’t ever accept a made up narrative or twisting of details, timelines, or excuses otherwise

and you have nothing against Andrew on that one lol and no axe to grind?

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by Kpoynter:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
why don’t those with diametrically opposite positions agree to disagree? Not a single opinion on either side has been changed by 40 pages of repetition. Ridiculous….

True but the Gaslighting is what’s crazy….
If it were differences of opinion this would have died..
I believe it’s the complete intentional ignorance and twisting of facts that has created the deep divide.
Andrew was balls deep… period…
So folks won’t ever accept a made up narrative or twisting of details, timelines, or excuses otherwise

and you have nothing against Andrew on that one lol and no axe to grind?

No… I intended to hunt with Andrew some years back and had to have a surgery and Andrew was quite gracious.
I’m the one who introduced CME to all this including Andrew and AR

Look…Andrew F’d up here… he didn’t mean to I don’t think any of us really think he did. Andrew was just trying to put a deal together. He is and was simply trying to support himself after the tragedy of Royal Kafue imploded on him.
I think of him a a secondary victim in the shitshow in a way and I 100% believe he had nothing but good and honest intentions originally


HOWEVER… Andrew absolutely shit the bed on his handling of things when they went South
1) there are still HUGE questions on who knew what and when
2) also, what he SHOULD have known and when as he 100% put the deal together and what he represented
3) maybe the biggest issue was this went real South just 30 days before departure! And new monies were requested ($20,000) right before and refunds were arranged for everyone BUT CME (this is where things were VERY Shady and again go to who knew what and when big time)
4)Andrew did little to nothing in response
5) He was caught red handed many times changing his story, position, and recollection once things came to light..these are facts…

So….
Did he get caught in a crap sandwich? Yep
Did he intend for any of this to happen? Nope
Did he go into it with good intentions? Yep
Should he have seen the issues coming? Yep
Did he give any warning or inform them of upcoming tragedy? Nope
Did he or should he have known that these funds (remember all from HIS CLIENTS per his own admission) got commingled and that he very likely knew CMEs monies were used for other refunds ? He likely did and hard to even imagine he didn’t. if he says he didn’t then he damn sure should have at that point as it’s pure common sense (I did in about two seconds and told CME that day this was going to happen…Ibi spent the damn money)

Did Andrew handle this VERY poorly when it happened and how he responded publicly when it came out? Oh yeah… that’s what ultimately led to page 40 here

If he had admitted what went wrong and literally just actually fought for the client or at least said …guys… yeah this went South and Ibi lied and I should have maybe known
I’m a white man in Zambia and he’s..you know ..not.. and he’s a POS. I’ve tired (actually tried and not lied about it)
If he had been remotely transparent about it and not changed his story….
NONE of this happens

But he did… he hurt his own self badly and I guarantee you he wishes he had handled differently (whether or not he will say so publicly)

So..I feel bad for him in several ways actually…. But he also did this to himself solely based on how he handled the response

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Simple question.

If someone takes money from others and doesn’t pay it back.

Is it a crime or not?

Simple answer.

No silly lawyers bullshit!

Simple but laughable.

1. Taking money from someone by force or subtrefuge is stealing and is a crime. CME did not loan money to Ibi. He made a downpayment for a hunt with all the services included. Ibi did not deliver the hunt and only $5000 of $80,000 owed in return. This is stealing by subtrefuge (or better known as a scam or a bait and switch) in most places.


2. Receiving a loan and not being able to pay it back is not stealing and therefore not a crime. The borrower is willing but has no means to repay the loan. Hence, bankruptcy rules/court. CME was not loaning money.

Seems a simple concept... Every religion has rules/standards on this... Governments as well....

Thank you.


You have just stated, yourself, you define the two criminals in discussion here, who commit the same crime, totally differently, according to the color of their skin!

No wonder BLM, DEI and all the others SICK and GLORIFIED, mixture of stupid letters define your society!

No wonder Trump won!

By the way, are you a lawyer too??

Bloody hell!.

This like trying to have an intelligent conversation with a 3 year old child with his mouth covered in chocolate and him saying “NO MOMMY I DID NOT EAT THE CHOCOLATE!

So CME is a criminal because he declared bankruptcy- which BTW is perfectly legal damn near everywhere? Interesting….

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
why don’t those with diametrically opposite positions agree to disagree? Not a single opinion on either side has been changed by 40 pages of repetition. Ridiculous….

out of curiosity what is your take on the whole?

He has no sense of humor!

If anyone actually THINKS we are having a logical, intelligent, discussion here, he is a bloody nincompoop!


This whole thread, was started as a silly joke.

Some of us are enjoying participating in a sort of bunch of drunkards and a sober bar man having his laughs!

And I DO believe taking others money and NOT paying back is a crime.

In Zambia and in America!

This NOT, repeat, NOT joke!

Saeed, you have officially doubled down on stupid.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Saeed, you have officially doubled down on stupid.

Official from who?

You?

The American bar association?

Corey?

Ibi?

Andrew?

Bankruptcy judges who tell poor people who in with all honest intentions gave money to some that they are NOT get it back?

Or the crooks who walk out of court laughing supported by a corrupt legal system run by corrupt lawyers??

quote:

Or the crooks who walk out of court laughing supported by a corrupt legal system run by corrupt lawyers?

That is what is termed as being "legally shafted".

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Or the crooks who walk out of court laughing supported by a corrupt legal system run by corrupt lawyers?

That is what is termed as being "legally shafted".

No it is not.

It is how SUCCESSFUL young people start in business!

Corey said it himself!

Apparently it is normal in America!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Saeed, you have officially doubled down on stupid.

Tripled down....

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Saeed, you have officially doubled down on stupid.

Tripled down....

Corey, could you please tell us how many times you, and your SUCCESSFUL YOUNG FRIENDS, HAVE DECLARED BANKRUPTCY??

Is there is a particular number of times one declares bankruptcy before he is considered SUCCESSFUL??

I got messages that Ibi is reading this thread very keenly!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Saeed, you have officially doubled down on stupid.

Tripled down....

Corey, could you please tell us how many times you, and your SUCCESSFUL YOUNG FRIENDS, HAVE DECLARED BANKRUPTCY??

Is there is a particular number of times one declares bankruptcy before he is considered SUCCESSFUL??

I got messages that Ibi is reading this thread very keenly!

I go to bed and wake up, thinking "how far has this thread gone off the rails in the last 12 hours?"

Now I know.

Saeed - you are completely and totally mistaken or misinformed about banking, bankruptcy, business practices and the legal system you seem to abhor.
You have lowered yourself, your forum and thinking in a manner that is hard to fathom. You appear to have decided that CME is the problem here. You have no right, no standing, no logical reason or standard to ask or infer what you are asking CME. I can answer your questions.

1. He answered this - once. You seem to think this is a crime. It is not. General Motors, Ford, hundreds of banks, Enron and hundreds of individuals and businesses have gone through the bankruptcy process in the USA. You have no apparant understanding of law and how a real legal system functions.

You assume that all lawyers are crooks (making many on AR "crooks" by your compromised and incomprehensible standard), all banks are evil (again showing your lack of understanding of business, risk, lending, how the real world functions) , all politicians are evil/liars/crooked (again, your info gleaned from British tabloids you so love to quote), that the USA government is corrupt and crooked and oppressing the world (yet people are begging and risking their lives to come here, and we protect individual rights in ways that your world cannot understand), and that - I find this one extremely bizarre - anyone who speaks of or hunts with Mark Sullivan is immediately an idiot, liar, poacher and unethicial. Your ability to judge others is rather impressive. Yet you indulge in volumes of killing that is a bit over the top on your annual blood lust to Tanzania that you so properly document for all to see. Your assault on Cal Pappas was classic and honestly paranoid driven. You seem to hate the very thing that you do. I really don't get.

You and some have turned on CME - why? Because he declared bankruptcy in 2017, started over and is now able to hunt in Africa again? You have no clue what this entails and how hard it is to recover, yet you call him a crook for working within the legal system under which he lives??? Your double standards are impressive. I doubt any lawyer, politician or banker on AR could come up with that logic....

As to Ibi reading this - how would you know or anyone else know that unless you and others are in direct contact with him? Same goes for your assumptions and judgements of CME - you have no direct info and no knowledge yet you cast him as a "crook".

Honestly, you have stooped to a level below that of things you purport to hate. You are acting like the crooked lawyers to hate/love. You have learned well.

I came on here 20 years ago thinking I found the best place to talk African hunting and shooting. For awhile it was and has now devolved to this level of vitriol that is hard to understand....

All I know is, you take money from anyone.

You provide them with with services or goods.

Failing that, it is called ROBBERY!

But, according to Corey, there another name to it.

BANKRUPTCY!

Apparently it is practiced very often by people who grow up to be very successful!

Why does Corey and some of his friends come over here and try that??

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Saeed, you have officially doubled down on stupid.

Tripled down....

Corey, could you please tell us how many times you, and your SUCCESSFUL YOUNG FRIENDS, HAVE DECLARED BANKRUPTCY??

Is there is a particular number of times one declares bankruptcy before he is considered SUCCESSFUL??

I got messages that Ibi is reading this thread very keenly!

I go to bed and wake up, thinking "how far has this thread gone off the rails in the last 12 hours?"

Now I know.

Saeed - you are completely and totally mistaken or misinformed about banking, bankruptcy, business practices and the legal system you seem to abhor.
You have lowered yourself, your forum and thinking in a manner that is hard to fathom. You appear to have decided that CME is the problem here. You have no right, no standing, no logical reason or standard to ask or infer what you are asking CME. I can answer your questions.

1. He answered this - once. You seem to think this is a crime. It is not. General Motors, Ford, hundreds of banks, Enron and hundreds of individuals and businesses have gone through the bankruptcy process in the USA. You have no apparant understanding of law and how a real legal system functions.

You assume that all lawyers are crooks (making many on AR "crooks" by your compromised and incomprehensible standard), all banks are evil (again showing your lack of understanding of business, risk, lending, how the real world functions) , all politicians are evil/liars/crooked (again, your info gleaned from British tabloids you so love to quote), that the USA government is corrupt and crooked and oppressing the world (yet people are begging and risking their lives to come here, and we protect individual rights in ways that your world cannot understand), and that - I find this one extremely bizarre - anyone who speaks of or hunts with Mark Sullivan is immediately an idiot, liar, poacher and unethicial. Your ability to judge others is rather impressive. Yet you indulge in volumes of killing that is a bit over the top on your annual blood lust to Tanzania that you so properly document for all to see. Your assault on Cal Pappas was classic and honestly paranoid driven. You seem to hate the very thing that you do. I really don't get.

You and some have turned on CME - why? Because he declared bankruptcy in 2017, started over and is now able to hunt in Africa again? You have no clue what this entails and how hard it is to recover, yet you call him a crook for working within the legal system under which he lives??? Your double standards are impressive. I doubt any lawyer, politician or banker on AR could come up with that logic....

As to Ibi reading this - how would you know or anyone else know that unless you and others are in direct contact with him? Same goes for your assumptions and judgements of CME - you have no direct info and no knowledge yet you cast him as a "crook".

Honestly, you have stooped to a level below that of things you purport to hate. You are acting like the crooked lawyers to hate/love. You have learned well.

I came on here 20 years ago thinking I found the best place to talk African hunting and shooting. For awhile it was and has now devolved to this level of vitriol that is hard to understand....

Frankly, you don’t like it here, find somewhere else!

No one is holding a gun to your head!

This thread was as stupid as it can possibly get.

Accusing an innocent man of committing a crime!

And you know what really annoys me?

Someone threatening to leave the forums!

Who the hell do you think you are?

You don’t like it, go somewhere else.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Saeed, you have officially doubled down on stupid.

Tripled down....

Corey, could you please tell us how many times you, and your SUCCESSFUL YOUNG FRIENDS, HAVE DECLARED BANKRUPTCY??

Is there is a particular number of times one declares bankruptcy before he is considered SUCCESSFUL??

I got messages that Ibi is reading this thread very keenly!

I go to bed and wake up, thinking "how far has this thread gone off the rails in the last 12 hours?"

Now I know.

Saeed - you are completely and totally mistaken or misinformed about banking, bankruptcy, business practices and the legal system you seem to abhor.
You have lowered yourself, your forum and thinking in a manner that is hard to fathom. You appear to have decided that CME is the problem here. You have no right, no standing, no logical reason or standard to ask or infer what you are asking CME. I can answer your questions.

1. He answered this - once. You seem to think this is a crime. It is not. General Motors, Ford, hundreds of banks, Enron and hundreds of individuals and businesses have gone through the bankruptcy process in the USA. You have no apparant understanding of law and how a real legal system functions.

You assume that all lawyers are crooks (making many on AR "crooks" by your compromised and incomprehensible standard), all banks are evil (again showing your lack of understanding of business, risk, lending, how the real world functions) , all politicians are evil/liars/crooked (again, your info gleaned from British tabloids you so love to quote), that the USA government is corrupt and crooked and oppressing the world (yet people are begging and risking their lives to come here, and we protect individual rights in ways that your world cannot understand), and that - I find this one extremely bizarre - anyone who speaks of or hunts with Mark Sullivan is immediately an idiot, liar, poacher and unethicial. Your ability to judge others is rather impressive. Yet you indulge in volumes of killing that is a bit over the top on your annual blood lust to Tanzania that you so properly document for all to see. Your assault on Cal Pappas was classic and honestly paranoid driven. You seem to hate the very thing that you do. I really don't get.

You and some have turned on CME - why? Because he declared bankruptcy in 2017, started over and is now able to hunt in Africa again? You have no clue what this entails and how hard it is to recover, yet you call him a crook for working within the legal system under which he lives??? Your double standards are impressive. I doubt any lawyer, politician or banker on AR could come up with that logic....

As to Ibi reading this - how would you know or anyone else know that unless you and others are in direct contact with him? Same goes for your assumptions and judgements of CME - you have no direct info and no knowledge yet you cast him as a "crook".

Honestly, you have stooped to a level below that of things you purport to hate. You are acting like the crooked lawyers to hate/love. You have learned well.

I came on here 20 years ago thinking I found the best place to talk African hunting and shooting. For awhile it was and has now devolved to this level of vitriol that is hard to understand....

Frankly, you don’t like it here, find somewhere else!

No one is holding a gun to your head!

This thread was as stupid as it can possibly get.

Accusing an innocent man of committing a crime!

And you know what really annoys me?

Someone threatening to leave the forums!

Who the hell do you think you are?

You don’t like it, go somewhere else.

________________________________________________

I can't find where Dogcat is "threatening" to leave the forum. He has conducted himself with decorum in spite of Ad Hominem criticism.
His argument is measured and rational.
Like any contentious issue there will be two sides with differing views that will be argued equally passionately. But play the ball and not the man.

PS. Dogcat, please book some more hunts this coming year so we can enjoy another of your hunt reports. It has been too long.

JCHB

Saeed,
I would not dream of leaving this forum. Further, I threatened nothing. Ban me if you wish, you own this and make the rules.

Rather than address what I have posted over the last few posts, now it is "leave if you don't like, no one has a gun to your head". Really, being bullied off this forum? That is bold, very bold. I don't think so.

Who do I think I am??? - Great question to ask yourself when you resort to name calling and bullying because someone has the audacity to disagree with you and point out flawed/bad logic. As I have said in earlier posts, the cultural gap between European based thinking and Middle Eastern thinking is vast. I do not pretend to understand a culture I have no long life experience in. I lived in the Middle East, worked there and still never really understood how some decisions get made. My basis for decision making is different. Note, I did not say mine is always right, but it is based on cultural, religous and education training.

You have created an environment here where you appear to be the supreme authority on all things political, ethical, legal, and moral. You accuse the USA and Americans of having no morals, you accuse every lawyer here of being "crooked", you accused Cal Pappas of ethical issues when in reality he was one of the most ethical hunters I have come across. You attacked Buzz Charlton over your perception of how he conducted his business operation when in fact he is easily one of the most highly regarded PH's and outfits in Africa.... I can list more.

The reason I take you and others to task on this issue - CME was exploited and stolen from - what happened is not right, fair, correct or whatever other word I can use to convey it was dead wrong. Now, you and a couple of others accuse him because of a business failure 7 or more years ago when you have no knowledge of the situation? Your double standard is fully exposed. Thankfully you have not defended Ibi other than to say "I would do business with him". His actions and those of Baldry show what can happen when things go bad.

Somehow someway , the standard has become - since CME declared bankruptcy in 2017 that somehow Ibi's non-repayment of a deposit on a non-existant hunt is somehow justified??? Makes no sense in the logical world. You are saying that CME is getting what he deserves??? That is very twisted thinking. The two issues have no connection other than CME lost in both instances.

As I have stated previously and will state again. Ibi is the problem. He owes CME $75,000. Baldry was part of the situation acting as an agent/facilitator/go between or whatever. Baldry set this up, sold it and then claims no responsibility. My opinion is that Baldry is culpable in some form to see that CME gets his money back. I stated my opinion on why I think that. Some agree, some do not. So be it. Yet here we are with name calling, character assaults, misdirection from the issue and finally - "if you don't like it here, leave."

Very telling on your part Saeed.

quote:

Originally posted by JCHB:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Saeed, you have officially doubled down on stupid.

Tripled down....

Corey, could you please tell us how many times you, and your SUCCESSFUL YOUNG FRIENDS, HAVE DECLARED BANKRUPTCY??

Is there is a particular number of times one declares bankruptcy before he is considered SUCCESSFUL??

I got messages that Ibi is reading this thread very keenly!

I go to bed and wake up, thinking "how far has this thread gone off the rails in the last 12 hours?"

Now I know.

Saeed - you are completely and totally mistaken or misinformed about banking, bankruptcy, business practices and the legal system you seem to abhor.
You have lowered yourself, your forum and thinking in a manner that is hard to fathom. You appear to have decided that CME is the problem here. You have no right, no standing, no logical reason or standard to ask or infer what you are asking CME. I can answer your questions.

1. He answered this - once. You seem to think this is a crime. It is not. General Motors, Ford, hundreds of banks, Enron and hundreds of individuals and businesses have gone through the bankruptcy process in the USA. You have no apparant understanding of law and how a real legal system functions.

You assume that all lawyers are crooks (making many on AR "crooks" by your compromised and incomprehensible standard), all banks are evil (again showing your lack of understanding of business, risk, lending, how the real world functions) , all politicians are evil/liars/crooked (again, your info gleaned from British tabloids you so love to quote), that the USA government is corrupt and crooked and oppressing the world (yet people are begging and risking their lives to come here, and we protect individual rights in ways that your world cannot understand), and that - I find this one extremely bizarre - anyone who speaks of or hunts with Mark Sullivan is immediately an idiot, liar, poacher and unethicial. Your ability to judge others is rather impressive. Yet you indulge in volumes of killing that is a bit over the top on your annual blood lust to Tanzania that you so properly document for all to see. Your assault on Cal Pappas was classic and honestly paranoid driven. You seem to hate the very thing that you do. I really don't get.

You and some have turned on CME - why? Because he declared bankruptcy in 2017, started over and is now able to hunt in Africa again? You have no clue what this entails and how hard it is to recover, yet you call him a crook for working within the legal system under which he lives??? Your double standards are impressive. I doubt any lawyer, politician or banker on AR could come up with that logic....

As to Ibi reading this - how would you know or anyone else know that unless you and others are in direct contact with him? Same goes for your assumptions and judgements of CME - you have no direct info and no knowledge yet you cast him as a "crook".

Honestly, you have stooped to a level below that of things you purport to hate. You are acting like the crooked lawyers to hate/love. You have learned well.

I came on here 20 years ago thinking I found the best place to talk African hunting and shooting. For awhile it was and has now devolved to this level of vitriol that is hard to understand....

Frankly, you don’t like it here, find somewhere else!

No one is holding a gun to your head!

This thread was as stupid as it can possibly get.

Accusing an innocent man of committing a crime!

And you know what really annoys me?

Someone threatening to leave the forums!

Who the hell do you think you are?

You don’t like it, go somewhere else.

________________________________________________

I can't find where Dogcat is "threatening" to leave the forum. He has conducted himself with decorum in spite of Ad Hominem criticism.
His argument is measured and rational.
Like any contentious issue there will be two sides with differing views that will be argued equally passionately. But play the ball and not the man.

PS. Dogcat, please book some more hunts this coming year so we can enjoy another of your hunt reports. It has been too long.

JCHB

Thank you. I plan to. Headed to a variety of places in the next 12 months. Merry Christmas!

Regarding personal bankruptcy.

Personal bankruptcy is of course not a crime in the USA, but it is considered a grave personal failure and there is considerable social stigma attached to it. That is why it is not a common thing but is actually and happily quite rare.

Unsecured creditors of the bankrupt are left without any remedy for their monetary losses, which of course can be significant, and they often feel as though they have been legally robbed.

The bankrupt always sees his credit rating quite rightly take a huge hit and the bankruptcy will show up on his credit report for up to 10 years afterwards.

Credit can be impossible or extremely difficult for him to obtain except when the debt is secured by valuable collateral and then only at high rates of interest.

“Once a bankrupt, always a bankrupt,” is the reality of it in the eyes of most creditors and sellers.

That is why, in any transaction where potential creditors or sellers will be at risk for payment of any appreciable amount of money, they will invariably require the potential debtor or payor to disclose in writing whether he has ever declared bankruptcy.

And bankruptcies are a matter of public record in the USA and so impossible to hide from any creditor or seller who does basic due diligence.

In my experience, African outfitters do not ask clients or do any other diligence regarding whether they have ever declared personal bankruptcy. Rather, the outfitters insist upon significant, non-refundable cash deposits as security against the risk of client default and non-payment.

Do we have definitive confirmation that the outfitter in this case has indeed declared bankruptcy in Zambia?

“I’m not ashamed, the most successful people that I know filed bankruptcy when they were younger.”



It didn’t take him 10 years to start booking expensive safaris??

So where did this perfect system of bankruptcies go wrong??

Crooked people going bankrupt.

Backed by crooked lawyers.

Operating in a crooked CRIMINAL system.

NEVER a LEGAL system.

As some have mentioned above, you get legal support to steal others money!

I don't pretend to understand the intricate mysteries of the Middle Eastern mind, but how attempting to drag Corey through the mud is believed to in some way make the individuals that stole his money look any better is a bit baffling. I honestly could care less if Corey just got out of prison the day before he declared bankruptcy. He responded to an ad by Baldry who was marketing and selling a hunt. He coordinated booking all the details of that hunt with Baldry. Baldry introduced him to Ibi and told him to finalize the payment with Ibi. He did. He is out $75K. Seems likely that since he booked and paid for a very expensive hunt, that his money was used to refund other Baldry clients . . . probably with the thinking that rather than refunding everyone ratably, we can completely pay off all but one and try and minimize the noise and the fallout. Corey got screwed by a cabal in Zambia. That has shit all to do with whether he ever declared bankruptcy, drives a Ford, cheated in high school on a chemistry test, etc. What I am confident of though is that efforts to make him look bad, ain't ever going to make Baldry and Ibi look good. Quite to the contrary.

It is interesting to me that this thread has persisted. I thought for sure when the the 2 people pushing the hardest discovered the Pot they were championing was also black they would slink away elsewhere. I was mistaken, instead they chose to lie, misrepresent, speak out of ignorance and continue with their crusade, so lets straighten a few things out:

1) CME's bankruptcy was personal, not business. He says it was due to personal guaranties related to business, whatever, it was personal bankruptcy.
2) Not that it matters, but the bankruptcy was not in 2017 as claimed by his personal cock-holsters, it was in 2020, and the debts were discharged (not repaid) in November of 2020. This was a mere 18 months before he sent $80k to Ibi for his and his fathers "all-in dream hunt".

And for a few more subjective issues:

1) What kind of a moron believes that a bankrupt party is completely innocent and has no complicity in their own personal bankruptcy? I would venture a guess that most on this forum consider themselves "conservative", yet they refuse to see the similarities and admit the personal responsibility.

2) Mr. Robinson, I respectfully disagree with your take in bankruptcy. Unfortunately, going through bankruptcy is viewed by many creditors as incentive to extend credit due to the subject not being able to hide behind bankruptcy for 7 years. It also has a tendency to empower the bankrupt once they learn there is little risk in this system and their balance sheet is wiped clean of those pesky debts. Many have risen to prominence quickly after bankruptcy much like our very own Corey.

3) From the outside (Like all but 2 of us), Corey's past looks identical to Ibi's, no less no more. A business is undermined by inconsiderate government actions, all of its partners, vendors and creditors are sucked under with it. Why is Corey's issue acceptable but Ibi's is not, they are both bankrupt? Are you foolish enough to believe that there would be no stories of deception or misdeed by the vendors fucked out of Corey's $542,000 bankruptcy? So why are sides being taken by anyone over 2 people who have been through identical situations, made identical choices that have led to identical outcomes? I'll venture a guess, Corey's payback involved the "oh so more valuable" hunting dollars that are so near and dear to many hearts here. No doubt, there are raw nerves related to this subject by many here and this opportunity afforded an outlet. Also, this crew tends to be cliquish, some live in a dream world where their hero's they pay for services are their friends and jump on the opportunity to pile-on another clique. Newsflash, its a business arrangement, see how much attention you get when you quit paying the fees.

In the end, the original deal is a shitshow with plenty of finger pointing and no good solutions. A fool was parted with his money, a bankrupt operator was caught short and the guy who put the 2 together walked away with a lost season and a year+ worth of bad publicity (if there is such a thing). No-one is innocent in this deal and fuck-all is going to be done about it. The most substantive thing I have seen is a few people on this thread, one who I admired from a distance, another who was pretty shady to begin with, have shown themselves to be low rent fools, who when given the opportunity to abandon a mess, decide instead to double down and prove themselves dishonest and self-serving.

Merry Christmas to all, I hope you focus on the true reason for this season, and Lord, please give me the wisdom to avoid anything like this.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I don't pretend to understand the intricate mysteries of the Middle Eastern mind, but how attempting to drag Corey through the mud is believed to in some way make the individuals that stole his money look any better is a bit baffling. I honestly could care less if Corey just got out of prison the day before he declared bankruptcy. He responded to an ad by Baldry who was marketing and selling a hunt. He coordinated booking all the details of that hunt with Baldry. Baldry introduced him to Ibi and told him to finalize the payment with Ibi. He did. He is out $75K. Seems likely that since he booked and paid for a very expensive hunt, that his money was used to refund other Baldry clients . . . probably with the thinking that rather than refunding everyone ratably, we can completely pay off all but one and try and minimize the noise and the fallout. Corey got screwed by a cabal in Zambia. That has shit all to do with whether he ever declared bankruptcy, drives a Ford, cheated in high school on a chemistry test, etc. What I am confident of though is that efforts to make him look bad, ain't ever going to make Baldry and Ibi look good. Quite to the contrary.

Who did Corey screw?

542,000 dollars is quite a bit of money to take from others and not pay it back!

Then suddenly he is rich enough to find over 80,000 of DISPOSABLE cash??

Carry on.

Pull the other one.

It has bells on it!

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:


I go to bed and wake up, thinking "how far has this thread gone off the rails in the last 12 hours?"

In light of your stated obsession I find myself wondering something.

I haven't read this multi page mess in it's entirety nor do I wake and check it immediately with my morning coffee.

So this is what I'm wondering.....

Off this forum have you ever communicated with, booked a hunt with, or completed a hunt with Andrew Baldry? Were you in some personal way ever harmed by him?

Seriously, I'm curious.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:


I go to bed and wake up, thinking "how far has this thread gone off the rails in the last 12 hours?"

In light of your stated obsession I find myself wondering something.

I haven't read this multi page mess in it's entirety nor do I wake and check it immediately with my morning coffee.

So this is what I'm wondering.....

Off this forum have you ever communicated with, booked a hunt with, or completed a hunt with Andrew Baldry? Were you in some personal way ever harmed by him?

Seriously, I'm curious.

Jim

No, never. Could not pick him out of line up.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:


I go to bed and wake up, thinking "how far has this thread gone off the rails in the last 12 hours?"

In light of your stated obsession I find myself wondering something.

I haven't read this multi page mess in it's entirety nor do I wake and check it immediately with my morning coffee.

So this is what I'm wondering.....

Off this forum have you ever communicated with, booked a hunt with, or completed a hunt with Andrew Baldry? Were you in some personal way ever harmed by him?

Seriously, I'm curious.

Jim

No, never. Could not pick him out of line up.

OK, thanks. Like I said, just wondering.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:


I go to bed and wake up, thinking "how far has this thread gone off the rails in the last 12 hours?"

In light of your stated obsession I find myself wondering something.

I haven't read this multi page mess in it's entirety nor do I wake and check it immediately with my morning coffee.

So this is what I'm wondering.....

Off this forum have you ever communicated with, booked a hunt with, or completed a hunt with Andrew Baldry? Were you in some personal way ever harmed by him?

Seriously, I'm curious.

Jim

I have asked this very question many times.

Not a single individual has come out complaining about a hunt with Andrew.

Every single hunter who has hunted with him have enjoyed it, and others have gone on repeat hunts.

Unlike Corey who seems to think making an excuse by going bankrupt, ably helped by crooked lawyers, a normal process of being successful!

It would be very interesting to hear how he has managed to rebound from “loosing” 542,000 dollars to being able to book 80,000 dollars hunt in such a short time??

Oh, may be SUCCESSFULLY BANKRUPT individuals do that!

May be he can offer us lessons??

Jim,
You and I have never met. I have had no interaction with you.

If you were being singled out and attacked over this incident, how would you react? I chose to step in and speak up for CME. I do not know him. Never met him. Same for Baldry and Ibi and Saeed. All I know is what I read here.

So, from my view an injustice has occurred. We all agree that Ibi got the money and has not returned it. We all agree that Baldry was involved to some degree. We all do not agree on the level of Baldry's involvement or if he is culpable in any way.

I state that I think Baldry is culpable. Others feel the opposite. Still others believe that justice (however it is defined) has been served on CME for his past bankruptcy.

I do not follow that logic at all. What happened in the past is not a pattern of behavour. It was settled in the courts and CME paid the price for that. Now that he has recovered from that mess and he was defrauded/stolen from/left holding the bag in this hunt situation, some are piling on saying, in essence, "he deserves this". Really? How? Are we in the eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth judicial system?

A few here think the USA legal system is a criminal system, that it is corrupt and that our system "NEVER a LEGAL system". If that is the case, why do most countries use a system very similar. The USA system is based somewhat on the British system and the French system. The USA system is not based on Islamic or Sharia law where an eye for an eye and tooth for tooth is available. To call the USA system "NEVER a LEGAL system" is bit of a stretch and factually incorrect.

To call all lawyers crooks is a stretch as well. It would be like me calling all Arabs and those of Arab decent "terrorist and rapists". Makes no sense and is just flame throwing for whatever purpose.

"Crooked people going bankrupt" - a stretch as well. Very few "crooked people" seek protection in the bankruptcy courts. They tend to get "found out" and end up in worse shape. Ask the "crooked" lawyers who post here if I am accurate or not.

As to personal vs business bankruptcy - the action depends on how the business was set up, how the financing was done and what collateral was pledged. To say this was personal bankruptcy and therefore someone is a crook is no more accurate than me saying "every Palestinian is Hamas". Makes no logical sense. Business bankruptcy is a bit different as there are more lenders involved and more claims. The point of bankruptcy is to allow someone to start over in life and business, legally, and rebuild their lives. I guess mercy may not exist in some places that do not allow people to restart.

Part of the reason I am not "leaving" is that I prefer to offer an alternative to the collective thoughts on how corrupt lawyers are, how corrupt the USA is, how evil politicians are AND to be a voice when I think someone is being mistreated out of no mistake of their making. Baldry and Ibi made this mess. I see it that they should sort it.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Jim,
You and I have never met. I have had no interaction with you.

If you were being singled out and attacked over this incident, how would you react? I chose to step in and speak up for CME. I do not know him. Never met him. Same for Baldry and Ibi and Saeed. All I know is what I read here.

So, from my view an injustice has occurred. We all agree that Ibi got the money and has not returned it. We all agree that Baldry was involved to some degree. We all do not agree on the level of Baldry's involvement or if he is culpable in any way.

I state that I think Baldry is culpable. Others feel the opposite. Still others believe that justice (however it is defined) has been served on CME for his past bankruptcy.

I do not follow that logic at all. What happened in the past is not a pattern of behavour. It was settled in the courts and CME paid the price for that. Now that he has recovered from that mess and he was defrauded/stolen from/left holding the bag in this hunt situation, some are piling on saying, in essence, "he deserves this". Really? How? Are we in the eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth judicial system?

A few here think the USA legal system is a criminal system, that it is corrupt and that our system "NEVER a LEGAL system". If that is the case, why do most countries use a system very similar. The USA system is based somewhat on the British system and the French system. The USA system is not based on Islamic or Sharia law where an eye for an eye and tooth for tooth is available. To call the USA system "NEVER a LEGAL system" is bit of a stretch and factually incorrect.

To call all lawyers crooks is a stretch as well. It would be like me calling all Arabs and those of Arab decent "terrorist and rapists". Makes no sense and is just flame throwing for whatever purpose.

"Crooked people going bankrupt" - a stretch as well. Very few "crooked people" seek protection in the bankruptcy courts. They tend to get "found out" and end up in worse shape. Ask the "crooked" lawyers who post here if I am accurate or not.

As to personal vs business bankruptcy - the action depends on how the business was set up, how the financing was done and what collateral was pledged. To say this was personal bankruptcy and therefore someone is a crook is no more accurate than me saying "every Palestinian is Hamas". Makes no logical sense. Business bankruptcy is a bit different as there are more lenders involved and more claims. The point of bankruptcy is to allow someone to start over in life and business, legally, and rebuild their lives. I guess mercy may not exist in some places that do not allow people to restart.

Part of the reason I am not "leaving" is that I prefer to offer an alternative to the collective thoughts on how corrupt lawyers are, how corrupt the USA is, how evil politicians are AND to be a voice when I think someone is being mistreated out of no mistake of their making. Baldry and Ibi made this mess. I see it that they should sort it.

To all their own. Glad you would stay. I've enjoyed your hunt reports even though I'm not a birder.

You're entitled to your opinion. Carry on.

You're entitled to obsess about this situation. Carry on.

Since AR has very little moderation you're entitled to keep this thread alive forever in an attempt to actually harm Andrew's financial future (though I doubt this thread has) even though you admit to never personally being harmed by him or even knowing him. Carry on.

In the very least a few are getting entertainment.

All the best
Jim

We need lessons from Corey!

How to cheat people and be successful!

LEGALLY!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
We need lessons from Corey!

How to cheat people and be successful!

LEGALLY!

Apparently, you're one of the ones getting entertainment.

quote:

So, from my view an injustice has occurred. We all agree that Ibi got the money and has not returned it. We all agree that Baldry was involved to some degree. We all do not agree on the level of Baldry's involvement or if he is culpable in any way.

I state that I think Baldry is culpable.

This statement would indicate that your entire post history is based on conjecture. You now have been noted to resort to hostilities against others including our host. Your accusations have become tedious and scandalous. It may be entertainment for some but not me.