quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
To your point, sort of a damned if you knew, damned if you didn't know situation if you ask me. If you knew, then you are part and parcel of the scam. If you didn't know, how can you truly be someone plugged into what is going on in Zambia and why wouldn't you have made it your business to understand what the situation was. Either way, seems ridiculous.

And as to this being how freelancing is done, that is absolutely not the case. I have booked many hunts with outfitters that did not control or operate the concession area. In every case, I booked directly with and paid the professional hunter and they secured the hunting rights in the concession area directly. I never dealt with and in most cases never knew who the concession operator was.

Good luck to those booked this year who ended up apparently booking in the same way Corey did.

You stated you book with freelancers and have no idea who owns the concession.

Do you pay the country of origin or your PH to an offshore account?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
To your point, sort of a damned if you knew, damned if you didn't know situation if you ask me. If you knew, then you are part and parcel of the scam. If you didn't know, how can you truly be someone plugged into what is going on in Zambia and why wouldn't you have made it your business to understand what the situation was. Either way, seems ridiculous.

And as to this being how freelancing is done, that is absolutely not the case. I have booked many hunts with outfitters that did not control or operate the concession area. In every case, I booked directly with and paid the professional hunter and they secured the hunting rights in the concession area directly. I never dealt with and in most cases never knew who the concession operator was.

Good luck to those booked this year who ended up apparently booking in the same way Corey did.

You stated you book with freelancers and have no idea who owns the concession.

Do you pay the country of origin or your PH to an offshore account?

Andrew-

I hunted a small Tanzania concession called Ibanda/Rumanyika, couple years ago. I hunted it with Wayne Grant as a freelance. I paid him (actually wired money to his wife in RSA). I had no clue who owned it. Still don't.

My point is, there is just lots of trust in our sport. Those that attempt to game the system, won't last long.

Is Ibi new to the game?

Based on what I have seen “ibi” (is that a real person or an imaginary foil?) and is apparently well versed in scamming others.

Whether this “ibi” exists is a moot point. What appears to have happened is a game of musical chairs with the money where the OP got left without a chair when the music stopped and all others were paid out.

I do not understand why the authorities in Zambia have not taken any action . This looks really bad. They are doing nothing to protect the paying customer.

No matter how you look at it , Corey got screwed. Without a doubt it was a Zambian who did it.

quote:

No matter how you look at it , Corey got screwed. Without a doubt it was a Zambian who did it.

Zambian(s)

If we are going to get governments shenanigan's involved, there is no government on the face of this earth that can compete with the America government in screwing people up.

Worldwide!

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
To your point, sort of a damned if you knew, damned if you didn't know situation if you ask me. If you knew, then you are part and parcel of the scam. If you didn't know, how can you truly be someone plugged into what is going on in Zambia and why wouldn't you have made it your business to understand what the situation was. Either way, seems ridiculous.

And as to this being how freelancing is done, that is absolutely not the case. I have booked many hunts with outfitters that did not control or operate the concession area. In every case, I booked directly with and paid the professional hunter and they secured the hunting rights in the concession area directly. I never dealt with and in most cases never knew who the concession operator was.

Good luck to those booked this year who ended up apparently booking in the same way Corey did.

You stated you book with freelancers and have no idea who owns the concession.

Do you pay the country of origin or your PH to an offshore account?

Andrew-

I hunted a small Tanzania concession called Ibanda/Rumanyika, couple years ago. I hunted it with Wayne Grant as a freelance. I paid him (actually wired money to his wife in RSA). I had no clue who owned it. Still don't.

My point is, there is just lots of trust in our sport. Those that attempt to game the system, won't last long.

Is Ibi new to the game?

I can't say why, but on the last few freelance hunts I have done, 2 have been pay the PH and one was pay the outfitter.

Of course that I have hunted with the outfitter before made that a nonissue.

I would like to think I know who the concession owner is, but that may be wishful thinking in all cases.

I have done it in many different ways.

Always worked.

But ultimately the responsible party is the one who got the money.

No one else!

In any business transaction, I don’t pay money to anyone who doesn’t have a contractual right to receive it from me.

Nor do I expect to receive money from anyone who doesn’t have the contractual obligation to pay it to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
In any business transaction, I don’t pay money to anyone who doesn’t have a contractual right to receive it from me.

Nor do I expect to receive money from anyone who doesn’t have the contractual obligation to pay it to me.

Michael -

Hunting in Africa, by nature has its financial risks. I've been on 35+ Safaris in most sub-Saharan hunting countries. I have had exactly one bad experience. And that one bad experience was the one that I did not use a credible booking agent.

The outfitters with sterling reputations are safe to hunt with. Companies like CMS, Muchinga, and all the well known Tanzanian Outfits. They, pretty much all are available thru a booking agent. It cost no more, it removes most if not all worry, holding monies in escrow fro TF's, pretty much everything.

Another advantage of using a credible booking agent is that they are in communication with the correct people far more often that we as clients are.

Funny, my African hunting days may be behind me. I've been vocal about fishing in South America. As of late, I've had some bad booking experiences there, more than all my years of hunting Africa. There's some dodgy characters in South America, Brazil in particular.

Steve,
I have had about a 90% failure rate in using Booking Agents, including my first safari to Africa, booked with a personal friend/agent... and domestic hunt the outfitter not getting paid!!
There is only a handful of Booking Agents I would book with today!! Sadly, this attracts some WANNA BEs that don't know as much as we do after a few trips!!
CHOOSE WISELY in all cases!!
If it feels WONKY, it probably is....

All booking agents are not the same. Some are better than others . Some are more reliable than others . Some are more honest than others .

All of my safaris I have booked directly with the PH.

Neither time was there a contract and every time things went perfectly.



Both times I paid to the US agent.

Next trip I realize there needs to be a contract.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
All booking agents are not the same. Some are better than others . Some are more reliable than others . Some are more honest than others .

+1


- 470EDDY, Your comment is exactly why I used the term "Credible". I would agree that there are many very enthusiastic new African hunters that want to be booking agents.

I could give you example after example of mine giving me sage advice and even disagreeing with me on when or where I want to go. He's done nothing but steer me in good directions.

And he keeps away from the politics of all this.

quote:

Originally posted by Hasher:
All of my safaris I have booked directly with the PH.

Neither time was there a contract and every time things went perfectly.



Both times I paid to the US agent.

Next trip I realize there needs to be a contract.

The ONLY time I signed a contract was when hunting with TGT.

The contract was so one sided - protecting TGT - that under normal circumstances I would never have signed it, or hunted with them.

But, I signed it because I was hunting with Alan Vincent.

Someone I have known for years and trusted implicitly.

I hunted with them several times, and all went well.

All my other hunts I have never signed a contract.

One PH brought out a contract and asked me to sign it.

I refused, without even looking at it.

We shook hands and that was that.

Hunted with him several times, and all went well.

At no other time was I asked to sign a contract.

And I never had a bad hunt.

My hunts were with Charl at Infinito once and Stan Burger at Stan Burger Safaris twice.

Everything was on a handshake and excellent trips all around with no issues or hidden fees and I truly had outstanding hunts.

I would gladly hunt with them on a handshake again.

All my US hunts have been this way as well.

Thing is, it goes both ways
Some operators get burned couple three times and there comes contract
We all go enough times, sooner or later, things go pear shape
Some are more lucky then others with that

I have signed a fair number of contracts . Most I didn’t balk about as they solidified things like dates , areas, etc. Most if not all had a liability waiver . I totally get that .

I did encounter one that I refused to sign. It was presented to me in a hotel in Dawson City in the Yukon. It was f’ing ridiculous. The outfitter wanted to know why I wouldn’t sign. My answer was that if the guide hunted sheep from the hotel lobby (as in never leaving the hotel), the guide intentionally shot me and robbed me, I would have no recourse. I was fully prepared to go home. I went on the hunt . Got a sheep.

They had a bad incident . As a result some lawyer came up with a ridiculous contract .

Personally, I think if there is a contract dispute is some third world country, the contract is likely useless .

Larry,
I had the same experience in Dawson City. I refused to sign then inserted my own wording. They signed. Hunt was a bust due to some illegal (spotting from air) and sending "experienced guides" (one had never guided before). No sheep. I contacted the outfitter. He said, good luck. I went to the authorities. He then repaid me to "avoid any public issues".

Contracts can cut both ways. Be careful and don't sign anything that is one sided...

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Larry,
I had the same experience in Dawson City. I refused to sign then inserted my own wording. They signed. Hunt was a bust due to some illegal (spotting from air) and sending "experienced guides" (one had never guided before). No sheep. I contacted the outfitter. He said, good luck. I went to the authorities. He then repaid me to "avoid any public issues".

Contracts can cut both ways. Be careful and don't sign anything that is one sided...

did env cos were involved for the illegal spotting from air?

Not sure what "env cos" is???

Even without a formal, written contract, in most hunting transactions one typically will have an enforceable contract.

Not that an oral contract or a written one in the form of an exchange of emails will be much comfort in most situations.

A formal, written contract will be better, if only because it will memorialize the key terms and conditions of the deal.

Still it is true that in case of a dispute the economics, politics and geography of even a high-end African safari will not support litigation.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Not sure what "env cos" is???

environment conservation office you observed illegal hunting method ... hope it was reported

Med,
Yes, it was reported.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Med,
Yes, it was reported.

thank you. do you know if something else was done and charges laid because that is not ringing any bells.

but thank you for all.

Well it looks like 2 more weeks have gone by and no payments from this mythical “Ibi”.

quote:

Originally posted by Hasher:
Well it looks like 2 more weeks have gone by and no payments from this mythical “Ibi”.

Why do you keep referring to Ibi as a mythical character?

The client sent his money to Ibi!

So he must exist.

And I keep repeating, this sort of posts only divert attention from Ibi, who is the real crook here!

quote:

Originally posted by Hasher:
Well it looks like 2 more weeks have gone by and no payments from this mythical “Ibi”.

He is definitely a real person.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Hasher:
Well it looks like 2 more weeks have gone by and no payments from this mythical “Ibi”.

He is definitely a real person.

Exactly!

I wonder why would anyone would doubt that after all we have seen here??

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hasher:
Well it looks like 2 more weeks have gone by and no payments from this mythical “Ibi”.[/QUOTE

He is definitely a real person.

He’s definitely a real crook

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hasher:
Well it looks like 2 more weeks have gone by and no payments from this mythical “Ibi”.[/QUOTE

He is definitely a real person.

He’s definitely a real crook

Exactly!

But to some here he doesn’t even exists??!!

Ok apparently he exists.



Why has the paid?

Oh wait he’s a crook.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hasher:
Well it looks like 2 more weeks have gone by and no payments from this mythical “Ibi”.[/QUOTE

He is definitely a real person.

He’s definitely a real crook

Exactly!

But to some here he doesn’t even exists??!!

because to blame Andrew for some here is easier than blame an unknown person ... at least in keeping those threads alive Saeed your offering some vision on the long run and if i have to go back to zambia that will be with andrew for sure but not on ibi grounds ...

quote:

Why do you keep referring to Ibi as a mythical character?

Because for some individuals to stir the pot is their favorite pastime regardless of the fact that CME has ironically been threatened with legal action by the very same "mythical IBI".

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hasher:
Well it looks like 2 more weeks have gone by and no payments from this mythical “Ibi”.[/QUOTE

He is definitely a real person.

He’s definitely a real crook

Exactly!

But to some here he doesn’t even exists??!!

because to blame Andrew for some here is easier than blame an unknown person ... at least in keeping those threads alive Saeed your offering some vision on the long run and if i have to go back to zambia that will be with andrew for sure but not on ibi grounds ...

+1

Baldry reminds me of Trump - "it is rigged", "I am not the guilty party" "it is Ibi who did this"

Oh well, this entire episode will live right up there with Jeff Blair and his mess....

No progress as of yesterday.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Baldry reminds me of Trump - "it is rigged", "I am not the guilty party" "it is Ibi who did this"

Oh well, this entire episode will live right up there with Jeff Blair and his mess....

Chalk and cheese!

All Andrew did was recommend Ibi.

Does any of us here get the same treatment if we recommend someone and it turns south?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Baldry reminds me of Trump - "it is rigged", "I am not the guilty party" "it is Ibi who did this"

Oh well, this entire episode will live right up there with Jeff Blair and his mess....

Chalk and cheese!

All Andrew did was recommend Ibi.

Does any of us here get the same treatment if we recommend someone and it turns south?

Not true! He used this website as a way to conduct business and make money. He was a party to the entire process. He negotiated the contract and terms with Ibi. Andrew was the conduit to getting a deal done with Ibi. Acting like Andrew has no culpability is lazy. He should be held to the same standard as Ibi. If you are selling hunts for a thief, and stand to make a significant amount of money off of said hunt, then the person selling the hunt bares equal responsibility to make things right. Notice, Baldry has posted exactly 0 hunt offers on the forums this year.

quote:

Originally posted by Cme:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Baldry reminds me of Trump - "it is rigged", "I am not the guilty party" "it is Ibi who did this"

Oh well, this entire episode will live right up there with Jeff Blair and his mess....

Chalk and cheese!

All Andrew did was recommend Ibi.

Does any of us here get the same treatment if we recommend someone and it turns south?

Not true! He used this website as a way to conduct business and make money. He was a party to the entire process. He negotiated the contract and terms with Ibi. Andrew was the conduit to getting a deal done with Ibi. Acting like Andrew has no culpability is lazy. He should be held to the same standard as Ibi. If you are selling hunts for a thief, and stand to make a significant amount of money off of said hunt, then the person selling the hunt bares equal responsibility to make things right. Notice, Baldry has posted exactly 0 hunt offers on the forums this year.

I agree!