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Your initial question was very craftily answered. | |||
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I see reading is not a strong suit of yours. Read Andrew’s reply to Saeed carefully and notice how he asks for his daily rates up front. | |||
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Let Andrew tell us when a PH gets paid his daily rates or daily fees seeing some of you don't know the difference between an outfitter's daily rates and a PHs rates, fees or dues, call his remuneration as you wish. When Andrew refers to his daily rates he means the rates applicable to the hunt he is selling and not guiding fees as he will very likely be guiding his own clients on the hunt. | |||
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No, I do not have all the great ideas. What I said are facts! | |||
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Indeed Mike and depending on which outfitter you have chosen, the options are the ones I mentioned and some will even take your word as a gentleman and accept trophy fees and any extras to be paid once arriving back home.  I ask the question: "Why do outfitters ask for the Daily rate up front?" Surely there must be a reason. | |||
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For once, Mike and I agree on something... | |||
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Anyone suggesting that daily rates are paid after the hunt is lying! I know of no professional hunter that would accept that. In very rare occasions, where both parties know and have complete trust in each other very well, it might happen. | |||
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Based on hunts that i have been on, all my daily fees are payed months before I depart. Now trophies fees are another item that some require deposit on the animals you want to go after. All the hunts i have been on my trophies fee's were paid at the end of the hunt. A couple of time the balance was paid after I returned home. Some time you go over budget and have a good time and something new crosses your path. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "You've got the strongest hand in the world. That's right. Your hand. The hand that marks the ballot. The hand that pulls the voting lever. Use it, will you" John Wayne | |||
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You keep saying I am lying and go ahead and pronounce all and every bit of it. Eugene is my company’s legal advisor and owes me and has won us a series of important cases and I contracted him to represent you at my cost. You later declined the offer and then state I have done fuck all when you were advised that you would get your money back though Zambia’s Legal system of which you declined. Please advise what else you want me to do and be civil about it so we can move forward ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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If you were paying why did he ask me for money during the first phone call? I told you as much after that first call. That’s why I don’t understand why you would bring it up. It actually looks worse that you would refer me to someone and he comes to me for money. Again, that is the exact opposite of what should happen if you are paying for something on someone’s behalf. | |||
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It is mind boggling that Andrew continues to engage this forum...just digging the hole deeper. He and Ibi have painted a terrible picture of Zambia to the hunting community. Oh and still no new GMA's awarded including the one in question. | |||
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Let us expand the question. What fees, funds, of any type did Fairgame receive from this 80k payment, if any? He may very well not have received any of the funds. He may not and does not have to reply. | |||
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All I see from all this old women bickering is Learn fast, trust some and verify all More then 2/3 of you on this OP must be idiots , no other explanation needed | |||
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I believe he has previously stated that he received nothing . | |||
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Somehow, this got deleted. Thanks for Safari2 for copying it. I repost it here. Originally posted by dogcat: That summarizes how Baldry handles his business - "Eugene is my company's legal advisor and owes me" - really? Why don't you collect what he owes you and send it to CME? What could someone possibly "owe you" ? You can't even sort this mess out. Ibi "owes you" doesn't he? Your "company's legal advisor" ? Why on earth would someone listen to him after your handling of this mess? How you ever get any clients is beyond me... | |||
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Yup. I have wanted to go to Zambia for a while. Learning things in the thread has made me stop those thoughts . Too many problems. | |||
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Agree.... | |||
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Me too. Go Duke!! | |||
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Zambia has other history of closures. They banned cat hunting on January 10, 2013. It's the leading reason I looked to the Niassa Reserve in Mozambique for our 2015 leopard hunts. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Man, thinking back just how fortunate I have been. I hunted Zambia, trouble free and nearly 100% successful from 2004, every year up until 2011. My absolute best African hunting and fondest African memories are from Zambia. CAR was a close second. Was fortunate there as well. I got my time in, during a window of relative, political stability. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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What we know from this sad and unfortunate situation is that the Zambian government, which caused this entire problem, cannot be trusted to behave in a businesslike way. It is no secret that the Zambian GMA tender process has been a goat rope for years and is destabilizing one of the best hunting markets in all of Africa. But any of us interested in hunting in Zambia knows or should know that there are still many excellent hunting opportunities there on open game ranches and game farms. We also know, or should know, that in fact a number of GMAs have been allocated, have quota and are being operated. Of course, given what happened with the GMA in this case, and given the number of GMAs that are still closed, one must conclude that there is some risk as to the continued viability of any GMA. How much risk there is and whether it’s too much is something each hunter will have to decide on a case by case basis. Would I hunt in Zambia again? Absolutely - under the right conditions I would gladly do so. Along with Tanzania, Zambia has some of the best hunting grounds in all of Africa. As for this case, every PH in the know about how the business of a freelance PH works and has commented here has said that Andrew should not be blamed. The same is true of experienced hunters who understand the business and/or do not have an axe to grind. Rather, it is clearly the government and the operator that are culpable here. And every hunter, including me, who has actually shared a camp and hunted with Andrew, who knows him personally and who has commented here, would gladly hunt with him again. I can only hope that I will one day have the opportunity. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I agree that Zambia can still be successfully hunted, but you really have to do your homework to make sure GMA's and quota are allocated. Thor's list of GMA's currently open would be a good starting point. I have a friend that booked West Musalangu for elephant this August. | |||
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I'll go back to my default position; ALWAYS use a COMPETENT booking agent. They act as a "fuse" or circuit breaker to act on my behalf. Even though I hunted Zambia with the duPlooy's a bunch of years straight, I always rebooked with my agent. A GOOD agent will always have your best interest in mind. They also have so much more contact with and have an "ear on the street" in country and can wave us off from stepping on a potential giant turd like this. I was going to hunt CAR in 2011. After his conversation with CAWA, he pleaded with me to postpone until 2012, the prime dates were not available in 2011, for a true black maned LDE and proper moon phase for Bongo. I don't know of a single agent that wouldn't just take the booking as I requested. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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…Me too. From 2014 to 2023. Six safaris all in Zambia. All with Andrew Baldry. | |||
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I had; Andrew, Terry Von Rooyen, Alister Norton, Lance Higgins, Abie duPlooy. Good times and success, all. I was actually Terry's first client after he got his full license. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Surefire, Michael Robinson and others that support/defend Baldry, I respect you all. I respect your hunting experience. By and large you are not whiners or bitchers or "I sho' is sorry for me" types. I respect your perspective. Question - with all of the info exposed so far, how would you have handled this mess with Baldry and Ibi? What would you have done or would do going forward to get your $80,000 back???? | |||
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First, I would not have paid 100% daily fees in advance, and by advance, I mean the last 50% would have been paid just before departure for the hunt. It's the way I've always done it and have yet to find an outfitter that is opposed to doing it the same. With that said, let's say I'm 50% in ($40k) and the deal goes pear shaped. 1) pull and review my written, signed contract to see what it states all parties responsibilities are. Don't have one? Shame on me. 2) Reach out to who I gave the money to (I would also ask if they had given any of the money to anyone else booking agent, ph, etc.) and demand a solution with a timeline in writing. 3) If they had given any of the money to anyone else, I would reach out to those parties and demand the amount they were given returned. 4) If none of the above worked, I would contact the State Department/US embassy in said country and ask for suggestions along with starting to prepare myself to accept the realization that I got fucked and there is very little recourse. 5) If I finally had to accept the above, I would contact trade organizations, see if I could get a sympathetic ear that at a bare minimum would warn others of those involved. 6) I would ask any connections I had to the debacle for help or advice and work those. 7) If I posted on community forums, I would make sure I understood what the situation was, what the proper terminology was, what the relations between all parties was and be hyper-vigilant about posting an unbiased, reasonable case for what happened. what I would not do.... 1) I would not demand amounts of money from people different than what they actually received. 2) I would not talk to others behind the scenes, share information and allow them to "post for me". If I had evidence, proof, or something to say, all would hear it from me. that and $5 will get you a cup of coffee at starfucks, your mileage may vary.... | |||
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That's a question Ross that it is easy for people to gloss over since it is not their $80K. Someone markets a hunt, someone interfaces and coordinates with you as the buyer of the hunt, they introduce you to and coordinate matters with the operator, you pay the operator they chose, introduced you to and had you pay, they request additional money along the way, then when the wheels fall off they tell you what do you expect me to do you need to talk to the operator, eventually the matter becomes public and the person who sold you the hunt starts changing his story and changing the facts to fit a false narrative . . . how would most of us react? I think most of us would feel exactly like Corey and we would be angry and resentful that someone that initiated and facilitated the entire transaction has left us hanging and is even changing the story after the fact. And it is also worth bearing in mind that Corey only brought this to light after months of broken promises and the can being kicked down the road. I think any reasonable person that puts themselves in Corey shoes would react the exact same way . . . and not be trying to cast the seller as some sort of innocent victim themself. Mike | |||
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+1 | |||
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505 gibbs: I see us rationalizing along the same lines. | |||
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All fair.. 1) the daily rate balance was paid every close to the safari dates and he was not told there was a problem until VERY close to the actual date. Contract doesn’t mean shit when someone decides to not honor it in Sub Saharan Africa and the money has been spent but you are absolutely correct 2) he did…. 3) how would you know information about other clients, who in the world would provide that information in a situation like this (I’m certain no one would) and who in their right mind as another client would return their money they were lucky to get back when some dude called and demanded so??? Absolutely no one 4) this was not done 5) this was and is being done albeit not by the PH who sold the hunt and the Operators association is currently separate from the PHAZA 6) this is and was being done…oh and one would think Andrew should have been front and center here wouldn’t they? Because he wasn’t and isn’t 7) I’m not sure anyone would not weigh the balance between blowing up someone in a third world country all over the internet without worrying about simply making the situation worse and dramatically lowering your chances of recovery… On the what you wouldn’t do…. 1) he never demanded money from Andrew only his firm help in trying to resolve which he hasn’t 2) that may be true for you personally, but I’d refer back to the “lessening one’s chances of a positive outcome in a Third World Country” doctrine as the reason that perhaps this hasn’t ….which one is better or smarter? Your mileage may vary as you rightfully put it | |||
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I've been screwed out of more hunting money than $80K, but my pain has been spread over more than one hunt. Some I have reported on AR, some I have not. But the vast majority of my experiences have been positive. In a case like this one, because I am no genius, I would no doubt be in the same boat as cme, pulling against the same current and just as pissed off. Just not as publicly and not at the same people. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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The logical thing is to go after the one who has taken the money! NO ONE ELSE! Scapegoating others is totally pointless! | |||
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First of all, I very much sympathize with cme. I can feel his pain and frustration. If I had spent $80,000 and received nothing for it, I would be furious. As mentioned before, if this were America, lawyers, lawsuits etc., could be pursued. I don’t know what one can do in Africa, and there’s the rub. But I see Ibi as the problem, as he has (had) the money, not Andrew. Andrew has stated he has not received a penny. The deposit all went to Ibi. As Saeed stated, he’s the man who must refund cme his money. Andrew cannot force Ibi to refund cme his money. He can refuse to never take Ibi another client, but I don’t know Zambian law enough to know what Andrew can force Ibi to do. It seems that if the government hadn’t interfered and shut down the hunting on Ibi’s concession, none of this would have happened. I see the government as the main culprit in this sad affair, and it looks like Ibi was caught in the middle. He did however, receive all of the money, so what happened to it? Only Ibi knows the answer to that question, but it also means he is financially responsible to refund cme his money. As I have stated before in this thread, if this had happened to me and Andrew, I would expect Andrew to help me get my money back. Notice I said ‘help me’ in this process. I never said that Andrew should refund me (or cme) the money he never received. And what can Andrew do? That, I do not know. But I would sure not curse him on the internet and accuse him of speculative crimes, and then expect him to help me through the process! That may only close doors I would not want closed. I can certainly understand cme’s anger and frustrations, but I think Andrew is his best chance of resolving the issue, if it can be resolved, and hope that cme continues to receive checks as Ibi recoups money. I have stood behind Andrew in this thread, based on the six safaris I have enjoyed with him. He is the best PH I have hunted with in (12) African safaris. His name was assaulted beginning with the title of this thread, and many have piled on. He may have been the person who cme asked to set up the safari with Ibi, which he apparently did, but the government then shut down Ibi’s concession, and a number of others. I don’t know what Andrew could do about that, or Ibi for that matter, but Ibi got the deposit money. He is responsible to refund it to cme. | |||
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I've been A outfitter for 23 years hunting all over the continent, The nature of our business is just this... the one who booked the hunt is responsible just how it works...A great example is taxidermy issues... once I've delivered skins in perfect condition to the taxidermy I have no further control over it... Not the tanning not the shipping not the cancelled flights not the shipping lines that is screwed since covid no control over shipping cost that goes up or stupid late minute government permit issues NONE!. TIll TODAY I have never had A US taxidermy take any responsibility for anything THEY ALWAYS BLAME IT ON OUR SIDE The "tanneries" in the USA IS JUST PERFECT AND CANT SREW UP SKINS...in this case It seems like the client wanted a lion hunt and was contacted by Fairgame...who ever got paid and how is irrelevant Andrew sold the hunt and he must get it sorted end of the story... and I am sure he will get it sorted all the best to all no client desrves to loose any money... Phillip du Plessis www.intrepidsafaris.com info@intrepidsafaris.co.za +27 83 633 5197 US cell 817 793 5168 | |||
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Phillip du Plessis www.intrepidsafaris.com info@intrepidsafaris.co.za +27 83 633 5197 US cell 817 793 5168 | |||
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Has CME received any additional payments??? DRSS Kreighoff 470 NE Valmet 412 30/06 & 9.3x74R | |||
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A thought: I assume when these blocks are located the outfitter has to put down some kind of lease payment or deposit. The cost of blocks is often cited as a primary reason for the cost of hunting to clients being so high. Now, if the Outfitter was able to put down such a lease payment and pay everyone else back except for CME, I am having a hard time not understanding why such a person cannot get an 80k loan to pay CME back. I also have no idea what the bankruptcy laws are that govern this Outfitter’s operation. | |||
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As of last week, no. | |||
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Maybe if we combine our resources on AR and Africahunting and start a gofundme and 2-300 people chip in with 2-300USD each and we make CME whole atleast? IF CME get any money back later we can do a lottery for a hunting trip or whatever for everyone who chipped in ? Im in for 300 usd | |||
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