I'll be the first to admit I'm not an expert, but I have spent quite a bit of time reading, learning, and speaking with people who are experts. I hardly think that gives me an athoritative oppinion, but I do have some idea. Even with my limitted ability to age lions there is absolutely no question on this one. I was not going to start this thread....although it took considerable restraint....because it would certainly hurt the hunter's feeling. I'm sure that has happened now and for that I am sorry. That said this is Accurate Reloading one of the greatest informational pieces for those going on safari that there is! If we don't bring it up here to educate future lion hunters where do we. I would agree that adressing this directly with the Du Ploys and Abie would have been more tactful, but it wouldn't have made hunters aware or put pressure on Muchinga Safaris to never have a repeat performance. In hind sight I have to agree with Judge that myself icluded should have used less inflamitory words to make our points. That's a fact and he is a gentleman. I hope with age I will gain his wisdom and restraint.

Brett

So 7 year old lions are breeding but 8 year old lions are not?

So if you whack 6 old lions, are things going to crap, like this thread?

How do you tell the difference between a 7 year old lion and an 8 year old lion?

"Science" notwithstanding I am sorry but you would have to have two control groups. One where you whack all the young lions and one where you whack only the old (>6 yrs.) lions.

All the rest is speculation and a source of government grants!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
So 7 year old lions are breeding but 8 year old lions are not?

No a lion of most any age is "capable" of breeding. The problem is are they able? Are they able to secure a pride? Are they old enough, big enough, or strong enough? Do they have enough support from other males to form a coalition to kill food, fight pride males, and then hold a pride? The same thing is true when they get older. Are they able to hold a pride any more? Or what is the likelyhood of them holding a pride anymore? NO ONE is advocating the taking of a pride male with cubs of any age. The point is at 8 years a male is likely out of a pride or soon to be kicked out.

"How do you tell the difference between a 7 year old lion and an 8 year old lion?"

I don't think anyone does in the field. They just look at it and know it's a damn old lion! To the best of your ability you know that either it has a pride with cubs or it doens't. If it doesn't? BAM!!!

""Science" notwithstanding I am sorry but you would have to have two control groups. One where you whack all the young lions and one where you whack only the old (>6 yrs.) lions."

We already have control groups for both and the results from the areas consistently taking old lions is decidedly favorable. Look at the recent report on Niassa. Look at some of the Tanzanian companies like TGT. This isn't a secret.

"All the rest is speculation and a source of government grants!"

Not really.

Brett

When I read Aarons first comment, I got pissed off. I wanted to respond, but I was to angry at the tone and direction that this witch hunt was going, so i waited an following since yesterday and cooling off.
I'm no expert on lions, but I do know their stiutation. I've hunted them 4 times, this last year in Tanzania. Even though we saw lion almost every day, only one looked almost old enough and I didn't even consider asking my PH if I could shot it. I agree with the ethical message, but the deliver sure stinks.
I hunt a lot, not as much as some, but a whole lot more than others. My trophy room has well over 100 displays in it and I've never posted a hunt report. I've always done what I do for me and figure most people don't care to hear about my stories. I guess my reasoning was wrong, now I really know why I'll never post a hunt report.

Just so no one thinks I'm hiding
My name is Mike Samson,
Fairbanks, Alaska,

while some think this could have been done without th remarks made, the fact is it worked and got a response. I had been looking for away to help and i found it. I personally don't think the hunter should get down on himself as he does not know. Muchinga however does. I hope this thread ends up helping and i will help. i currently have lion hunts booked and hope i can get a big old lion and if i don't i spent alot to have a great hunt. thanks for trying to the people involved including the hunter who just happens to be the guy that made a boo boo unknowingly
thanks

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Wow! Log off early and you miss all the fun. My IN box is full of new e-mails with links to this thread plus threats and rebuttals.

I read everything in my IN box and then started on this thread. It seems to me that everything pertinent has been said plus a whole lot of verbage and strongly stated opinions from folks with little to no personal experience with lions or Africa. It seems it has now degenerated into a bunch of individual squabbles.

I do have some observations on this.

1. I can't comment on the lion's age because I'm not an expert. That lion is not what I will be looking for when I hunt lion with the Du Plooys next year but I've been on four lion hunts previously and have a pretty definite picture of what I'm looking for. I unlike a lot of clients have little anxiety about going home without a lion.

2. I can comment on the Du Plooys and Muchinga Adventures. Clients just love them. They always deliver what they say will from pick up in Lusaka through the hunt and the shipping of trophies. They also are the easiest of companies to do business with for the us as agents and for the clients. If I send a client to the Du Plooys I know they will be taken excelent care of.

3. I'm sure this thread has left a lasting negative inpression on wrldhunter. He had been encouaged to post his report and he got blind sided with this. I feel bad for him. I think if feelings ran so strong concerning his safari that something had to be said that direct correspondence with the safari operator and a seperate thread addressing the subject of taking young lions could have achieved that same result without making it about wrldhunters safari.

4. I also agree that this thread will discourage others from posting their reports. Who wants to work for hours organizing a great report when there is a good chance of getting shredded. I promise you that even if I kill a monster lion with Johnny in '12 I'm not posting a picture of it. Perhaps I'll just photoshop one of Aarons big cats.

Mark

Mark & Others, I'm gonna try to make my position real clear, and provide some of the info that I know, and feel strongly about.

First, I do not hope this thread discourages others from posting HUNT REPORTS, but I sincerely hope it discourages and educates others as to the necessity for shooting only a MATURE lion. Mark, if you shoot a mature lion, why would you not post it??? I'm going to CAR next week, along with LDE/Bongo, I'm hunting lion too. If I shoot one, I'll happily post it. If I'm NOT confident its a mature lion, I won't shoot it. What's so dificult about that?

Secondly, I have contacted the outfitter directly. I have also contacted PHAZ & SHOAZ in Zambia too. I will work tirelessly to eliminate this kind of accepted lion hunting practice. Do it, let me find out about it, and I will call you out too!! That simple, and I will not stop until as a collective group, we put an end to these unacceptable lion hunting scenarios. If I unfortunately lose clients over it, or it tarnishes my reputation, then so be it. The lion is worth it to me!

Third, Mark you too were copied on the message I sent to the DuPlooy's, and my response to their initial response. Folks who have emailed me agree, the DuPlooy's run a good camp. The other comments I received, are not and will not be made public, but every single email I received from a former client of the DuPlooy's said the same thing, and you saw what that is!

Fourth, I really hope folks will take the time to learn about all the work that some are doing in reference to the lion/lion hunting, etc. I HAVE JUST SPENT THE PAST 90 MINUTES ON THE PHONE TO AFRICA, WITH PAUL FUNSTON. HE HAS BEEN ASKED BY THE TANZANIA WILDLIFE DEPARTMENT (WD), TO COME IN AND HELP ORGANIZE/EDUCATE THE "WD", TPHA/TAHOA, AND THE PUBLIC, AS IT PERTAINS TO THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE NEW 6 YR OLD, LEGISLATION IN PLACE IN TZ. Paul and I discussed the involvement of the Lion Conservation Task Force (LCTF), as well as many of the things that need to be done immediately, his perception of hunting, and his opinion for the need for continued lion hunting. He asked if we would commit to being at several of his workshops, the first one will kick off in Tanzania in mid June, dates will be finalized in a couple weeks. He asked the LCTF to help provide guidance/input from the hunting side of things. He asked me to bring our opinions regarding the 6 yr old rule, and how to better implement the system. Asked me how we work together to educate the WD for the need to reduce quotas, make wildlife conservation the top priority, not the DOLLAR. We discussed many things as it pertains to the lion/lion hunting in Tanzania, Zambia, etc. So, if you guys really think I'm just ranting on this thread, because the lion is my favorite animal, or I have nothing better to do. I strongly suggest you buy a plane ticket, and attend the workshops. Maybe then, you can really get an in-sight into why some of us are so concerned about the lion and the conservation of all African Wildlife. Maybe you then can understand the countless hours that myself, Dr. Easter, Michel Allard, Michael Angelides, Zig McIntosh, and many of the world's leading scientists (Dr. Packer, Dr. Begg, Dr. White, Paul Funston, etc) have put forth in hopes of educating the public, as to the benefits on lion hunting, before its listed to the ESA. An effect so devasting on African Wildlife as a whole, I honestly think most of you really don't realize the outcome/effect it would have.

Come, you're welcome to attend. Then you'll truly understand what we are up against, the hurdles we face, and the reason a thread like this is unfortunately necessary.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
I'll be the first to admit I'm not an expert, but I have spent quite a bit of time reading, learning, and speaking with people who are experts. I hardly think that gives me an athoritative oppinion, but I do have some idea. Even with my limitted ability to age lions there is absolutely no question on this one. I was not going to start this thread....although it took considerable restraint....because it would certainly hurt the hunter's feeling. I'm sure that has happened now and for that I am sorry. That said this is Accurate Reloading one of the greatest informational pieces for those going on safari that there is! If we don't bring it up here to educate future lion hunters where do we. I would agree that adressing this directly with the Du Ploys and Abie would have been more tactful, but it wouldn't have made hunters aware or put pressure on Muchinga Safaris to never have a repeat performance. In hind sight I have to agree with Judge that myself icluded should have used less inflamitory words to make our points. That's a fact and he is a gentleman. I hope with age I will gain his wisdom and restraint.

Brett

Good Lad Brett.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Good Lad Brett.

Yeah....I'm a work in progress. I'll learn some day. I suppose knowing and accepting when you've made a mistake is the first step towards not making the same mistake in the future.

Brett

Aaron,

You did copy me on some correspondence with the Du Plooys. I did not receive anything from you regarding a response to their reply to you. Could you send that to me? In fact you can copy me on anything that you find relevant.

Mark

Gentlemen,

I was in camp when that Lion was shot. Wrdhunter was already an AR member when we discussed the site while sharing camp in Zambia. He was not very active. It was I that encouraged him to post a report both while in Zambia and later after our return.

We did not hunt together but did discuss hunting, family, and firearms like any group of hunters would while sharing a camp.

After reading the bulk of this thread this morning I found myself feeling a little badly about nudging him towards posting a report. Especially since he was not even an avid lurker and had no idea what can happen on this forum when pissing matches replace reason.

I called him a minute ago and apologized for encouraging him to post, especially if it diminished the memory of his hunt. His reply showed maturity beyond his young age. I will not speak for him, but suffice it to say I feel a bit better after the call.

The one thing I did express though is that after we remove the chaff of the pissing matches demonstrated here I do believe the silver lining is the science based factual information that is offered.

I thank Aaron & Lane for their work. I thank wrdhunter for his frame of mind.

Let's get back to working together to see that the Lions benefit somewhat from what those willing to learn may possibly take away from this thread.


Cheers
Jim Wojciehowski
Anchorage, Alaska

WOW....
I will not post any more on this subject but I felt I needed to clear the air.
The decision to shoot the lion in question was mine and mine alone. I take full responsibility, Abie nor Johnny pulled the trigger, I did. I knew what I was shooting before I pulled the trigger. Where some are fortunate enough to hunt lions 15 times in their life, I am not. If this is the only lion I ever hunt and kill I am still as excited as the day I shot it and feel fortunate to have done so. There were a lot of assumptions made and every man is entitled to his opinion. I do not care about your opinions nor do I need your blessing.

quote:

Originally posted by wrldhunter:
WOW....
I will not post any more on this subject but I felt I needed to clear the air.
The decision to shoot the lion in question was mine and mine alone. I take full responsibility, Abie nor Johnny pulled the trigger, I did. I knew what I was shooting before I pulled the trigger. Where some are fortunate enough to hunt lions 15 times in their life, I am not. If this is the only lion I ever hunt and kill I am still as excited as the day I shot it and feel fortunate to have done so. There were a lot of assumptions made and every man is entitled to his opinion. I do not care about your opinions nor do I need your blessing.

Well, that's taking the high road. I don't think I could be so generous!

Mr. Neilson thank you for your honesty and your work for all of us that hunt. You are giving much more than your dollars!

As a Hunter, I personally believe I have a duty to hunt fairly, ethically, and humanely. For me, hunting mature animals is ethical. I have never hunted in Africa but I believe the correlation applies. A mature animal may be a buck or doe, pheasant or quail. In many instances our regulations prevent immature animals from being hunted and when they don't it is my responsibility.


ddj

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
How do you tell the difference between a 7 year old lion and an 8 year old lion?

An 8 year old Lion has one more candle on his birthday cake, silly.

Wrldhunter- you are lucky you did not shoot your fair chase-no high fenced-non drugged up-legal Lion with a Sabatti Double rifle or you would really have been taken to the woodshed!!. Your PH had the final say and could have said NO! not this lion. Your choice was yours and thanks for posting the hunt as i have learned a few things from the posts.

quote:

Originally posted by wrldhunter:
WOW....
I will not post any more on this subject but I felt I needed to clear the air.
The decision to shoot the lion in question was mine and mine alone. I take full responsibility, Abie nor Johnny pulled the trigger, I did. I knew what I was shooting before I pulled the trigger. Where some are fortunate enough to hunt lions 15 times in their life, I am not. If this is the only lion I ever hunt and kill I am still as excited as the day I shot it and feel fortunate to have done so. There were a lot of assumptions made and every man is entitled to his opinion. I do not care about your opinions nor do I need your blessing.

wrldhunter - As Bill says, your moral high ground is admirable, and I thank you for that. As stated from the beginning, this was not meant as a jab at you, not now, not ever. I am happy for your success, as I am for any hunter. I carry no jealousy towards anyone, never have, never will. I want everyone to share in the dream that is Africa, but with a little conscious thought to what they do or do not, leave behind.

My beef, as I have tried to make clear, is with Muchinga/Abie. And your post even further supports my position! I too am a guide, this will be my 19th year. Never one time, have I allowed the client to dictate what will be shot, or what won't be shot, period, end of story. As an example. For the past 10 yrs we have intensely managed a few exceptional properties in eastern Colorado for trophy mule deer/whitetail. On two specific instances I can think of off the top of my head, I had a bow-hunter who was not too happy with me, as I would not allow them to shoot a couple of specific mule deer. Both bucks were easily in the mid 180's, and both bucks were ONLY 4.5 yrs old. We have a policy on some of our more intensely managed places, 5.5 yrs old, or nothing. I made it very clear to these guys, that neither deer could be killed, and I was sorry if that upset them, but that is our policy, no exceptions! If a guide is not capable of conducting the hunt, and he is not capable of being in charge during the hunt, he has no business guiding clients! I totally understand your desire to shoot the lion. I really do. BUT, any PH worth a darn would have told you NO, its not allowed, and we will not shoot a lion that young. You wanted your lion, totally understandable, and Muchinga wanted to maintain their 100% success rate. Someone who has the experience/knowledge and the leadership should have instructed you guys not to shoot that lion, starting with the PH.

Although I do not have a "beef" with you, I do hope that this thread might help to educate you and others, as to the necessity for restraint. Lions are under incredible pressure, incredibly scrutiny, and are on the brink of loss, if legal/ethical sport hunting is NOT protected. We must change the mindset of success over conservation. Success cannot be the #1 concern, period!

Lion experts of the world, Bill included. PLEASE join us in Tanzania in June, you can listen for yourself, as every single "Scientific" lion expert we have asked to join the LCTF, agrees. IF LION HUNTING IS CLOSED, OR IF LIONS ARE LISTED ON THE ESA, IT WILL DOOM NOT ONLY THE LION, BUT THE VAST MAJORITY OF AFRICA'S WILDLIFE, OUTSIDE OF ANY NATIONAL PARK. MOST OF THEM ARE NOT HUNTERS AT ALL, BUT EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM HAS THE KNOWLEDGE/EXPERIENCE AND EXPERTISE TO KNOW THE BENEFITS HUNTING PLAYS AS A MANAGEMENT TOOL, FOR ALL WILDLIFE ON THE DARK CONTINENT.

So Bill, rather than arm-chair quarterbacking from the sidelines, how about getting in the game, and making a difference? Can we count on your participation in June/TZ???

quote:

Originally posted by 2kuduhunter:
Wrldhunter- you are lucky you did not shoot your fair chase-no high fenced-non drugged up-legal Lion with a Sabatti Double rifle or you would really have been taken to the woodshed!!. Your PH had the final say and could have said NO! not this lion. Your choice was yours and thanks for posting the hunt as i have learned a few things from the posts.

Good post.

Actually, I've heard that the lion was killed with a push fed rifle, and they all celebrated the kill at dinner by eating panda steaks with whittled tiger bone forks.

I am sitting in a blind in central Florida with my I pad and my416 hoping some hogs come out. I am reading on my I pad to pass some time. In read this entire thread.

The problem I see is not with the message but how it was delivered. There is far too much inflammatory language and name calling. The first few sentences of the thread were so inflammatory, the message was never going to register . When a client was brought into it, i tend to think that made many retaliate rather then listen to the message.

Admirable intent, serious subject matter and not well thought out presentation . Very few are going to respond favorably to such writings.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I am sitting in a blind in central Florida with my I pad and my416 hoping some hogs come out. I am reading on my I pad to pass some time. In read this entire thread.

The problem I see is not with the message but how it was delivered. There is far too much inflammatory language and name calling. The first few sentences of the thread were so inflammatory, the message was never going to register . When a client was brought into it, i tend to think that made many retaliate rather then listen to the message.

Admirable intent, serious subject matter and not well thought out presentation . Very few are going to respond favorably to such writings.

Larry - As I have stated above, after responding to the Judge's post, your point is well taken. I did apologize for not presenting it in a way satisfactory to everyone.

Perhaps my passion for the lion got the better of me. Perhaps I am NOT so good at being politically correct, or perhaps I also wanted the message to be strong! I knew I would catch alot of flack for this, and if some think twice before shooting a lion like this again, then I am willing to take the flack. Perhaps others need a little thicker skin too, and maybe see the message for the seriousness, that I think it is. I guess I could have sugar-coated it, and maybe not hurt anyone's feelings, but I'm not sure my message would have come across as strongly as I wanted it to.

I cannot satisfy everyone, nor will I try. I will however do everything I can to fight for continued legal lion hunting, and the conservation practices that we all know should be followed.

The subject matter is serious. Some real action needs to happen. There is zero wrong with being passionate on this matter. In order to accomplish the goal of saving lion hunting, great care needs to go into how the message is communicated. It is no different than when I determine how to effectively communicate issues to my clients.

My next comments are of a general nature and not directed at any one person . On AR in general and this thread in particular , there is way too much name calling, serious negative personal attacks or comments about others and often fighting just for the hell of fighting. If progress, learning or disseminating information is going to be successful, this really needs to stop.

I think that everyone needs to realize that a huge percentage of e mails and text messages are not interpreted correctly. A client one sent me an article that indicated that in excess of 90% of e mails and text messages are misunderstood. I tend to think posts here are often misunderstood . I think we should all think about that when writing herein.

Now back to looking for hogs!

Aaron has been criticized for shooting "too many" lions but I think one of the problems is just the opposite, as wldhunter pointed out: he may never return for another lion hunt.

If a hunter is on a once in a lifetime hunt, and doesn't ever intend to return, then shooting an immature lion doesn't really have that much of an impact on them personally. If lion hunting is stopped, so what? It is the "I have mine" mentality.

But I would guess many hunters are oblivious to the whole question of lion aging anyway and have no idea of the conservation questions that are pertinent.

In past posts I have always been critical of the idea of a "once in a lifetime" hunt. If you can only do something once, what if you like it? Too bad, you can't go again. And if you don't like it? You just blew a boatload of cash on something you didn't enjoy as much as you thought you would. My advice to anyone contemplating a "once in a lifetime" hunt is not to go if you can't afford to do it at least twice. But hey, I am not emperor of the world. According to Ms AZW, I am not even emperor of the house; just my trophy room.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
The subject matter is serious. Some real action needs to happen. There is zero wrong with being passionate on this matter. In order to accomplish the goal of saving lion hunting, great care needs to go into how the message is communicated. It is no different than when I determine how to effectively communicate issues to my clients.

My next comments are of a general nature and not directed at any one person . On AR in general and this thread in particular , there is way too much name calling, serious negative personal attacks or comments about others and often fighting just for the hell of fighting. If progress, learning or disseminating information is going to be successful, this really needs to stop.

I think that everyone needs to realize that a huge percentage of e mails and text messages are not interpreted correctly. A client one sent me an article that indicated that in excess of 90% of e mails and text messages are misunderstood. I tend to think posts here are often misunderstood . I think we should all think about that when writing herein.

Now back to looking for hogs!

This gets my vote for post of the year!

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Aaron has been criticized for shooting "too many" lions but I think one of the problems is just the opposite, as wldhunter pointed out: he may never return for another lion hunt.

If a hunter is on a once in a lifetime hunt, and doesn't ever intend to return, then shooting an immature lion doesn't really have that much of an impact on them personally. If lion hunting is stopped, so what? It is the "I have mine" mentality.

But I would guess many hunters are oblivious to the whole question of lion aging anyway and have no idea of the conservation questions that are pertinent.

In past posts I have always been critical of the idea of a "once in a lifetime" hunt. If you can only do something once, what if you like it? Too bad, you can't go again. And if you don't like it? You just blew a boatload of cash on something you didn't enjoy as much as you thought you would. My advice to anyone contemplating a "once in a lifetime" hunt is not to go if you can't afford to do it at least twice. But hey, I am not emperor of the world. According to Ms AZW, I am not even emperor of the house; just my trophy room.

All good points!!

Honestly if I didn't read AR I probably wouldn't have a clue (some probably think I'm still clueless) about a Lion's age. I have a tendency to read all I can about a subject that interests me until I lose interest.

Now if I were on a Lion hunt knowing little about Lion age and importance of the Lion being a non-pride holder and older then I probably would have to rely on the PH to guide me in the shooting decision. Guess there can be a fine line there between ethics, business, and customer satisfaction.

I have a Lion/Leopard hunt booked for 2012, also in the Luangwa. The PH and I have been in close contact for some time. I made it clear I will not shoot an immature Lion. He made it clear he would not allow me to shoot an immature Lion. We structured the contract to reflect that by having it worded that the Lion hunt gets downgraded to a Leopard hunt should a mature Lion not present itself.

That way, I am not burdened with temptation to shoot something I probably shouldn't.

quote:

A client one sent me an article that indicated that in excess of 90% of e mails and text messages are misunderstood. I tend to think posts here are often misunderstood . I think we should all think about that when writing herein

I think this happens because in our current world in which we no longer express ourselves in full but via 140 character texts and stream-of-consciousness-never-edited emails, we have lost our ability to convey our thoughts clearly and concisely via the written word. But that's just my opinion.

Amen to World Hunter...enjoy your lion.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
What's your problem with the number he killed? Are you unhappy with Saeed for losing count on Buffalo at 200?

Well, if there are probably over a million buffalo in Africa and at best fifty thousand lions left, I'd say his question is a valid one.

And I'll ask you the same question of why? Did Aaron shoot any off quota? Did he steal a quota Lion from another hunter trying to purchase it using some "insider" scheme?

Whether there are 50,000 or 30,000 Lions if a Lion is offered on quota it should not matter whether the hunter purchasing the hunt has 10 already in the freezer or mounted or is hoping to take his first.

Please explain the difference to me.

If you can't tell the difference between a species that numbers at least a million and one that numbers in the tens of thousands, I don't think I can explain it but to my simple mind, it seems obvious. But just to be clear, I don't have any issues with the man taking lion legally. Just like the other guy who tooj just one. I'm just amazed at the numbers..

quote:

Originally posted by wrldhunter:
WOW....
I will not post any more on this subject but I felt I needed to clear the air.
The decision to shoot the lion in question was mine and mine alone. I take full responsibility, Abie nor Johnny pulled the trigger, I did. I knew what I was shooting before I pulled the trigger. Where some are fortunate enough to hunt lions 15 times in their life, I am not. If this is the only lion I ever hunt and kill I am still as excited as the day I shot it and feel fortunate to have done so. There were a lot of assumptions made and every man is entitled to his opinion. I do not care about your opinions nor do I need your blessing.

It is nice that you take personal responsibility but bottom line is that there are not enough lions for a hunter to take any one they want, even if it is the only time they will pursue one.

Without the six year rule lion hunting will end by the end of the decade.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
so where was all the support 3 years ago when I was being labelled "elitist" for pointing out young lions posted here on AR?

Better late then never I suppose....

I was with you Bwana!

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
So 7 year old lions are breeding but 8 year old lions are not?

No a lion of most any age is "capable" of breeding. The problem is are they able? Are they able to secure a pride? Are they old enough, big enough, or strong enough? Do they have enough support from other males to form a coalition to kill food, fight pride males, and then hold a pride? The same thing is true when they get older. Are they able to hold a pride any more? Or what is the likelyhood of them holding a pride anymore? NO ONE is advocating the taking of a pride male with cubs of any age. The point is at 8 years a male is likely out of a pride or soon to be kicked out.

"How do you tell the difference between a 7 year old lion and an 8 year old lion?"

I don't think anyone does in the field. They just look at it and know it's a damn old lion! To the best of your ability you know that either it has a pride with cubs or it doens't. If it doesn't? BAM!!!

""Science" notwithstanding I am sorry but you would have to have two control groups. One where you whack all the young lions and one where you whack only the old (>6 yrs.) lions."

We already have control groups for both and the results from the areas consistently taking old lions is decidedly favorable. Look at the recent report on Niassa. Look at some of the Tanzanian companies like TGT. This isn't a secret.

"All the rest is speculation and a source of government grants!"

Not really.

Brett

Brett,
I could not have said it better!

So.....the booking agent/guide who has killed 11 lions has a problem with the one lion killed by a guy who can afford to hunt them maybe once in his lifetime. Shooting young lions prolly does look bad to the non-hunters but I wonder how they view booking agents who see fit to kill 11 in 16 years.

quote:

I totally understand your desire to shoot the lion. I really do. BUT, any PH worth a darn would have told you NO, its not allowed, and we will not shoot a lion that young.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Aaron,

It was all I could do to restrain myself from starting this exact thread. That lion is a F$^$ing travesty! Abie is a half ass SOB that should lose his license! And if that's the stuff that Johnny let's go on he probably shouldn't have a lion quota let alone a concession! Piss poor!!!! I have a name for people who put money above all else..........whores!

Brett

Brett, your post pulled me from beneath my rock.

I've know Abie duPlooy for a very long time, he is one of the pioneers of Zambian professional hunting. I own a current copy of the Zambian top 40. It lists the top 40 trophies for every species hunted. It separates them by game farm or wild as well. I believe Abie duPlooy's name is listed in EVERY SINGLE category and more than two or three in most of them.

Yes the lion is young, yes he should have been allowed to walk. But he is not a piss poor PH and the duPlooys are not a disgrace, they are fine people who are running a business. They do in fact shoot their entire quota every year if possible. Wouldn't you? If the quota is wrong then change it.

The duPlooys (Alister Norton) gave me a dose of Africa that I will never forget, The real Africa. I went back six years in a row. The Luangwa Valley IS the holy grail of our sport.

You opinion is valid Brett, just harsh. If you had an unhappy client would you want what you said, said about you?

quote:

Originally posted by Proteus:
So.....the booking agent/guide who has killed 11 lions has a problem with the one lion killed by a guy who can afford to hunt them maybe once in his lifetime. Shooting young lions prolly does look bad to the non-hunters but I wonder how they view booking agents who see fit to kill 11 in 16 years.

Why does it matter if the booking agent has killed 11 mature lions on legal quota? Other people on this thread have taken the same position as you and for the life of me I cannot see any point whatsoever in this argument. This is about shooting immature lion(s) and the negative effect it IS going to have on us as African hunters.

You aren't getting it. Based on the best science you can shoot all the 6 + year old lions out that you can find and it won't negatively impact the population of wild lions.

You shoot younger and you very quickly and dramatically impact the population of wild lions. Especially if you hit a pride male.

So it doesn't matter if you shoot 50 old lions. Whereas it does matter if you shoot 1 pride male.

Question?

Was this lion a legal animal under Zambian law? If so then we should be upset with the Zambian Parks Dept. not the hunter or the PH.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by trouthunterdj:
Mr. Neilson thank you for your honesty and your work for all of us that hunt. You are giving much more than your dollars!

As a Hunter, I personally believe I have a duty to hunt fairly, ethically, and humanely. For me, hunting mature animals is ethical. I have never hunted in Africa but I believe the correlation applies. A mature animal may be a buck or doe, pheasant or quail. In many instances our regulations prevent immature animals from being hunted and when they don't it is my responsibility.


ddj

It seems a lot of hunters these days dont appreciate having hunted hard but going home empty-handed.

It is 7:30 pm in Texas and I am just fixing to leave my practice office for the day. Wow...busy day in the clinic and busy day dealing with the LCTF issues. I am missing my boy dearly!

Of all of the PM's and emails I got today...I did NOT get one that was not complimentary of bringing things to light for some that did not know. Thanks all for those.

Truth is...Aaron and I (and Aaron first) just decided one day a few months ago that no one was taking the threat of loosing the lion seriously and we decided to take it on. As Aaron stated earlier...many positive things have come about already. Enough??? NOOOOOOOO...probably not...but better than nothing. If we loose the lion...African Hunting will forever be changed and right now...it is ours for the saving.

This thread did get off to a bad start, I'll admit. But some of us were already in the thick of the fight and did not stop to realize that others might need to get up to speed before seeing our point. Our bad!!!

I want to apologize sincerely to all...that if in my way of written communication...I offended anyone I am truly sorry. And...as stated many times...NO one...including myself meant any harm to WorldHunter.

As Aaron stated...the ball is in our court...I and most of the LCTF will be in Tz for the first meeting when it happens. I hope that many from here will be too.

Again...science is on the side of responsible hunting. But it must be responsible. Dr. Paul Funston whom looks to be the new administrator of lion policy in Tanzania says: "nothing like peer pressure to enforce rules...it is the best tool we have!"

Again...sorry for any offense...but...lets please work together for the good of the lion and our way of life.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
You aren't getting it. Based on the best science you can shoot all the 6 + year old lions out that you can find and it won't negatively impact the population of wild lions.

You shoot younger and you very quickly and dramatically impact the population of wild lions. Especially if you hit a pride male.

So it doesn't matter if you shoot 50 old lions. Whereas it does matter if you shoot 1 pride male.

Fairly accurate assessment!

Folks, for the 88th time. This isn't about me, wrldhunter or whether he can only afford to shoot one lion, and I can hunt em 15 more times. Its about the necessity to learn and understand the problems facing the lion. Its about learning the reasons why we must focus on practicing better lion hunting ethics. Its about bringing to light, some of the problems we have amongst our own. Problems that are only amplified, when PH's lack the responsibility to do the right thing.

I hear about ALL the experience this PH has, the things he's done, etc, etc, etc. All the more reason I say, He Knew Better, and simply failed to care, period! Reading the original Hunt Report, it states pretty clearly that they had plenty of time/opportunity to observe the cats. Had it been a quick/snap decision in low-light conditions, or a million other ways an HONEST mistake could have been made, then that's a totally different story. Fact is, none of that happened. A decision was made, with ample time to judge the trophy, and a complete lack of concern for the plight of the lion. Shameful, and I'll say it again, SHAMEFUL!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Question?

Was this lion a legal animal under Zambian law? If so then we should be upset with the Zambian Parks Dept. not the hunter or the PH.

465H&H

Working on that! But we must police ourselves as well...if we want to continue to hunt lion that is.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Question?

Was this lion a legal animal under Zambian law? If so then we should be upset with the Zambian Parks Dept. not the hunter or the PH.

465H&H

Tragically yes, it is legal! The LCTF is working hard to get that changed in Zambia, but first we are working on the pressing issues in TZ. Regardless of the legality, considering the huge pressure that lion hunting is under right now. Yes, we need to start holding the PH/hunter responsible for their actions too. Laws/rules and regs can all be established, but its up to the stewards of the game, to go above and beyond.