quote:

My apologies to the hunters, as this IS NOT meant or directed at them in anyway.

Yeah.... roll eyes..

AfricanHunter, how does a hunter's choice to legally take more than one lion in his or her lifetime affect how many lions are taken? They're on a quota system in the countries that offer legitimate wild lions, and it doesn't matter how many people it takes to use each country's quota. The only negative effect of a hunter taking more than one lion in his life (or in a season, for that matter) is that the total demand for the limited number of lions on quota will increase, and prices will go up. And that's not necessarily a negative, because placing a higher value on the animals will increase the incentive to carefully manage them.

quote:

Don't get your ass up in the air at me this time Doc., you seem to enjoy that.

Just like in my day job...I try to stomp out disease and pestilence.

quote:

as long as it is done in a manner that will help keep the population healthy and hunting for older males that are nearing or past their productive prime, is probably the only way that will work.

Exactly what we are advocating!

quote:

Just like in my day job...I try to stomp out disease and pestilence.

If that is the best you have your pitiful.

I support what Aaron is attempting to do, if you feel that it is better to alienate people that support that work is a bettewr way of handling the situation, more power to you.

Some how I feel that might be a little counterr productive.

If your Lordship don't mind, Please take the time and point out ANY thing I said in this post that was negative toward Aaron and his work???

quote:

I don't have a dog of any kind in this fight, but there is a possibility, that in spite of, or because of, all the hard work and good intentions of those that are working so hard to keep lions from ending up on the Endangered Species list, some folks may just want to try and get as many animals killed as is possible before they are placed off limits.

quote:

I hope that I am wrong with that assumption, but stranger things have happened in this world.

See you can not do that, because I have not said one thing in either of my posts against Aaron and his work, just suugested that you might want to take your self rightenous down a peg or two and realize some folks are in support of the work being done to benefit the lion, even if you have a low opinion of them.

Crazy,
My Dad's home ranch is just past the 199 281 Y outside of Jacksboro. My family runs cattle all over that part of the country. Maybe I'll run onto you one of these days when passing through.

Aaron, you are spot on, in my opinion.

I respect your (and others) stand on this.

It has been said by wiser men than me "If you do not stand for something, you will fall for anything".


I cannot add to what Aaron (and Lane) have said. I think they are right, and I am 100% with Aaron on this.

This was the first time we had seen both lions in full daylight. The blueish grey lion was huge but also completely maneless, looked to be a older lion. The other lion was a little smaller body size but had a better mane than we had first thought.

I am suprised no one has noticed this line. After reading this I had to speculate that this was not a huge mainless male with a smaller male, but in fact a lioness with a 1/2 grown cub.

Who knows all the curcumstances, but the ball definately got dropped on this one. I am not trying to be selfrighteous, because believe me I have blown a call or two in my hunting career, but somewhere in this story the PH definately needs to step in and be the pro he is trained and payed to be.

quote:

Originally posted by sandyhunter:
AfricanHunter, how does a hunter's choice to legally take more than one lion in his or her lifetime affect how many lions are taken? They're on a quota system in the countries that offer legitimate wild lions, and it doesn't matter how many people it takes to use each country's quota.

That is only true if all the lion on quota are taken every year. And that would be rare.

Usually if lion are still on quota near the end of the season they will be offered on a discount.

And, if I remember correctly(a am quite often wrong...) Aaron has stated that, as a booking agent, he has had an inside line to these discounted hunts.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by sandyhunter:
AfricanHunter, how does a hunter's choice to legally take more than one lion in his or her lifetime affect how many lions are taken? They're on a quota system in the countries that offer legitimate wild lions, and it doesn't matter how many people it takes to use each country's quota.

That is only true if all the lion on quota are taken every year. And that would be rare.

Usually if lion are still on quota near the end of the season they will be offered on a discount.

And, if I remember correctly(a am quite often wrong...) Aaron has stated that, as a booking agent, he has had an inside line to these discounted hunts.

So what? Did Aaron kill any Lions illegally? What's your problem with the number he killed? Are you unhappy with Saeed for losing count on Buffalo at 200?

I really don't see the validity of your beef. Seriously, can you explain it better?

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
in 16 yrs of hunting Africa, I've shot 11 lions, so less than 1 per year.

Seriously? You've personally shot eleven lions? Is this you personally or your clients? BTW, I agree with you regarding the taking of young lions. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
What's your problem with the number he killed? Are you unhappy with Saeed for losing count on Buffalo at 200?

Well, if there are probably over a million buffalo in Africa and at best fifty thousand lions left, I'd say his question is a valid one.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
So what? Did Aaron kill any Lions illegally? What's your problem with the number he killed? Are you unhappy with Saeed for losing count on Buffalo at 200?

I really don't see the validity of your beef. Seriously, can you explain it better?

Not that I'm particularly on anybody's side in this one, but I'm pretty sure no one is saying the hunter did anything illegal by taking the subject lion. So ... this is just an ethical debate, and people have validly brought up whether it's ethical to shoot a pile of lions when there are few to hunt in comparison with other animals. What's that old line about casting the first stone?

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

Like I said I am being totally dogmatic. But I have seen 25 lb. leopards shot by mistake.

What does that matter? Leopards are judged by SKULL MEASUREMENT!!! What size were their skulls?

And if I am not mistaken lions are measured by skull as well.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
What's your problem with the number he killed? Are you unhappy with Saeed for losing count on Buffalo at 200?

Well, if there are probably over a million buffalo in Africa and at best fifty thousand lions left, I'd say his question is a valid one.

And I'll ask you the same question of why? Did Aaron shoot any off quota? Did he steal a quota Lion from another hunter trying to purchase it using some "insider" scheme?

Whether there are 50,000 or 30,000 Lions if a Lion is offered on quota it should not matter whether the hunter purchasing the hunt has 10 already in the freezer or mounted or is hoping to take his first.

Please explain the difference to me.

Hell, I'm just impressed you killed anything at ALL considering who you booked this hunt through..

I guess Heathington doesn't do Africa..

JBrown,

I don't think it matters that all of the lions on quota aren't taken. The analysis is the same. There are only so many lion safaris that can be sold in a year, regardless of how many people those safaris are split among. The fact that Aaron goes on more safaris than the next guy doesn't affect the number of lions that are killed. Also, it's in some ways easier for him to be selective in what he kills, since he isn't in the situation where he's only going once in his whole lifetime and doesn't want to go home empty handed. Combine that with the fact that he is probably a better judge of lion age than the average Joe, along with the aforementioned point about increasing demand, and I'd say having someone like Aaron taking more than one lion in his lifetime is arguably better for lions. And the price that Aaron pays also doesn't change the number of lions killed, because, as you've recognized, the outfitters he hunts with could always sell the hunts to someone else. If he gets a discount, it's because he has a flexible schedule or because the outfitters feel they're getting value from him beyond the tab for the safari. I don't see how that changes the number of lions killed. There aren't enough lions for everyone to kill one, so the lions go to those who are willing to pay what it takes to hunt them. And payment can come in the form of referred clients, or friendship, or anything else. That's how markets work. Am I missing something?

tygersman,

Aaron's choice to kill more than one lion isn't affecting the population of lions, nor is it affecting anyone else's ability to hunt lions, except to the extent that it raises the price. What's the ethical problem with that? Is it just that killing a lion is so sacred that it should only be done once per customer? Again, perhaps I'm missing something.

quote:

Originally posted by sandyhunter:
JBrown,

I don't think it matters that all of the lions on quota aren't taken.

Sure it does. Quite possibly, less dead lions ...

quote:

I'd say having someone like Aaron taking more than one lion in his lifetime is arguably better for lions.

Maybe in a world where math doesn't matter, and we don't pay PHs 1800 a day.

quote:

Am I missing something?

I don't know. I don't think either one of these guys needs to be drawn and quartered. None of this would present a significant issue if there were a few hundred thousand lions left.

quote:

tygersman,

Aaron's choice to kill more than one lion isn't affecting the population of lions, nor is it affecting anyone else's ability to hunt lions, except to the extent that it raises the price. What's the ethical problem with that? Is it just that killing a lion is so sacred that it should only be done once per customer? Again, perhaps I'm missing something.

See above. My only point was none of this concerns legal issues. You don't see an ethical issue with stacking up center punched lions as long as they're on quota, not shot by a rookie, and are expensive. Ok - I'm fine with that. I'm also fine with a guy listening to his PH when shooting a cat, apparently also on quota. I can see people disagreeing with doing either due to circumstances stated throughout this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
So what? Did Aaron kill any Lions illegally? What's your problem with the number he killed? Are you unhappy with Saeed for losing count on Buffalo at 200?

I really don't see the validity of your beef. Seriously, can you explain it better?

I want to make it 100% clear that I am not taking issue with Aaron or the number of lions he has killed.

I was only pointing out that Sandyhunter's theory is incorrect.

Sandyhunter
If a late season "quota clean-up" hunt is not sold the lion does not get killed. The fact that Aaron has purchased these hunts(he may not have....) may mean that he killed a lion that would have lived, assuming the hunt may not have been sold if he had not purchased.

I am relating this to my own situation: took a lion on a late season hunt. I was the last hunter of the season. If I had not killed my lion, he would have lived and most likely been around for the net season.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

Like I said I am being totally dogmatic. But I have seen 25 lb. leopards shot by mistake.

What does that matter? Leopards are judged by SKULL MEASUREMENT!!! What size were their skulls?

the leopards must have been hydrocephalic dwarfs. no other way to explain big head-small body!!

Here is an interesting article

Well, at least the photos of the lions teeth are interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by Scottyboy:
Hell, I'm just impressed you killed anything at ALL considering who you booked this hunt through..

I guess Heathington doesn't do Africa..

JBrown,

How is Aaron's purchase of that "clean-up" hunt or a cancellation hunt any different from anyone else's? When outfitters try to sell those hunts, anyone can buy them. The mere fact that he may get the first opportunity on such a deal doesn't materially change whether the cat will be sold. If he doesn't take it, the outfitter presumably calls the next person he's close to, or calls his favorite booking agents to ask them to sell the hunt at a discount (or, in today's market, with no discount at all), or offers the hunt on a forum such as this, or sells it to someone who is already in camp but wasn't originally planning to hunt lion. Again, Aaron's contribution to the number of lions killed is limited to the fact that he's one more person who might want to kill a lion. The slim chance that Aaron, as an additional market participant, might hunt and kill an unexpectedly available lion that no one else wants to hunt and kill is small enough to be meaningless, particularly when there is such a great demand for lions.

quote:

As we stopped the land rover the lions also stopped walking and watched us. This was the first time we had seen both lions in full daylight. The blueish grey lion was huge but also completely maneless, looked to be a older lion. The other lion was a little smaller body size but had a better mane than we had first thought. As we discussed whether or not to shoot the lion layed down in the grass, just his head was visible. I decided I was going to shoot this lion because I would rather kill a respectible lion than hunt for a monster and go home empty handed. Not wanting to walk up on the lions bedded in the grass, we had a tracker circle back around and make some noise int he trees off to our side to distract the lions. It worked, and as the lions stood to see what was going on I took a frontal chest shot at 60 yards immdeiately dropping the lion stone dead.

and, apparently shooting it from the land rover?

Tiger hunting was banned and the decline of their population did not stop. I assume the same for the Jaguar.

Why hasn't anyone pointed this out?

We'll ban Lion hunting, the antis will feel warm and fuzzy, and the Lion population will continue to decline due to more poaching and less game fees. And less money into the local economy.

Now what did accomplish?

Save Lions? No
Help local communities? No
Make some goofy-ass liberal feel good? Yes

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
If I had not killed my lion, he would have lived and most likely been around for the net season.

Maybe he would be and maybe he wouldn't be but I doubt you not taking the Lion would have changed the next years quota and thus no greater number of hunts would have been offered.

Am I wrong?

I dunno guys.

I have met Abie, and he's a pretty good chap.

Its my understanding that Muchinga gives a tooth or two of each Lion to Dr. White for her lion aging research, and that she has (again I have been told by folks on the hunting end, not Dr. White) found that they are taking consistent older lion.

Perhaps some of you (Aaron and Lane) who know her well could ask her how old this particular one is once she gets the tooth and result- she may well already have it given the hunt occurred last year.

I hate to see a good hunter and a good outfit get run down on peoples views of a picture given that better info is likely available (although I too think the lion looks young in all of my minimal experience...) but I recall Alister Norton (a hell of a cat guy) when I hunted the same concession said that the mane in that area did not really correspond all that well with age- that size was better, and he could just "tell" when a lion was older and shootable. Abie has been hunting there for a long time, and I would tend to take his word on what he thought acceptable.

In all honesty, most hunters that go on Safari go once or twice and really don't know all about the ins and outs of wildlife conservation and management. And yes you could say that they SHOULD make the effort to know this, but there's a hell in life that people should know.
Thankfully for people like Saeed and his wonderful sight, maybe we will all learn something.

BUT had I know more about this subject, would I have passed up on this one? At ten yards after three days of awesome tracking hunting. I doubt it.

quote:

Originally posted by sandyhunter:
JBrown,

How is Aaron's purchase of that "clean-up" hunt or a cancellation hunt any different from anyone else's? When outfitters try to sell those hunts, anyone can buy them. The mere fact that he may get the first opportunity on such a deal doesn't materially change whether the cat will be sold.

My point(and again: I'm not trying to beat down Aaron as I don't have a problem with taking multiple lions. I'm simply pointing out flaws in your theory) is that his buying of those hunts guarantees that the hunt is sold.

If Aaron was to pass on the hunt there is a chance that the hunt would not sell and the lion would live.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
If I had not killed my lion, he would have lived and most likely been around for the net season.

Maybe he would be and maybe he wouldn't be but I doubt you not taking the Lion would have changed the next years quota and thus no greater number of hunts would have been offered.

Am I wrong?

Well, yes. You are wrong(sort of)....

My point was not that my killing or not killing would have changed the quota. My point was that my killing of the lion reduced the total lion population by -1.

If I had not killed my lion there most likely would have been one more male lion running around the next season.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
In all honesty, most hunters that go on Safari go once or twice and really don't know all about the ins and outs of wildlife conservation and management. And yes you could say that they SHOULD make the effort to know this, but there's a hell in life that people should know.

You make a great point.

When I hunted for lion(2003) there was not nearly the hue and cry to save the lion by specifically targeting only certain males.

Then when you add to this the fact that my main goal was elephant and buffalo and I did not really expect to actually get a chance at a lion and that I had booked a late season "clean-up" hunt, it is clear to see why I did not study-up on lion conservation. I did devote a lot of time to shooting practice and studying shot placement.

So, yes, I can sympathize with the hunter whose lion this thread is shitting on. It is safe to say that this will tarnish his memories.

quote:

Originally posted by Austin Hunter:
Tiger hunting was banned and the decline of their population did not stop. I assume the same for the Jaguar.

Why hasn't anyone pointed this out?

We'll ban Lion hunting, the antis will feel warm and fuzzy, and the Lion population will continue to decline due to more poaching and less game fees. And less money into the local economy.

Now what did accomplish?

Save Lions? No
Help local communities? No
Make some goofy-ass liberal feel good? Yes

I would guess the lions biggest thread is poaching and loss of habitat. That happens most in places where there is no hunting and tourism. That's maybe not pointed out because most people here care about hunting but only a few about the lion as species?!

quote:

PH's who allow lions like this to be shot, should be fined heavily, and totally banned from hunting, ever again.

Yes for sure but I don't see how that will help the lion?!

Aaron,

It was all I could do to restrain myself from starting this exact thread. That lion is a F$^$ing travesty! Abie should lose his license! And if that's the stuff that Johnny let's go on he probably shouldn't have a lion quota let alone a concession! Piss poor!!!! I have a name for people who put money above all else..........whores!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Aaron,

It was all I could do to restrain myself from starting this exact thread. That lion is a F$^$ing travesty! Abie is a half ass SOB that should lose his license! And if that's the stuff that Johnny let's go on he probably shouldn't have a lion quota let alone a concession! Piss poor!!!! I have a name for people who put money above all else..........whores!

Brett

I'm wondering how in the world you guys can judge the age of that lion from a the limited perspective that the single photo on that thread gives. It is a photo of the chest and chin of a blood covered lion.

Am I missing something? Were there other photos?

I mean, Brett, you called it a travestity and called the PH a half assed SOB!?

I am wondering if you plan to say that to his face next year at SCI.....

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
Am I missing something?

Yes.

"Were there other photos?"

I've seen them and I can tell you they weren't any more impressive and were........equally depressing.


Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
And if that's the stuff that Johnny let's go on he probably shouldn't have a lion quota let alone a concession! Piss poor!!!! I have a name for people who put money above all else..........whores!

Brett

If you have some interest in Lion hunting and have been keeping an eye on what is coming out of where, you will see from past 2 to 3 years, apart from occasional good trophy, very young lions are being shot from this part of Zambia. I will certainly not head that way for a lion hunt.

Aaron i support you 100%

quote:

Originally posted by Ahmed Sultan:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
And if that's the stuff that Johnny let's go on he probably shouldn't have a lion quota let alone a concession! Piss poor!!!! I have a name for people who put money above all else..........whores!

Brett

If you have some interest in Lion hunting and have been keeping an eye on what is coming out of where, you will see from past 2 to 3 years, apart from occasional good trophy, very young lions are being shot from this part of Zambia. I will certainly not head that way for a lion hunt.

Ahmed,

I totally agree! One of Johnny's clients this year took one of the nicest lions I've ever seen taken out of the Luangwa.......and then from the same area they took this travesty. Clearly the all mighty dollar is more important than lion conservation.

Brett

Aaron I agree with what you are saying and doing, WILL and AFRICAN HUNTER have no idea what they are talking about. If you read their comments its actually a Joke and They are on the wrong forum maybe they should join www.stupidcomments.com.

African hunter, Aaron is not a lion killing spree he is actually contibuting towards conservation. Who cares if he shot 20 lions as long as they were old and as we know he has the right mentality which is better than someone else coming along and shooting one 2 yr old lion.

Will if you personally believe that a 25 lbs leopard is a mistake then you truly know nothing about hunting.

And for a client to have the mentality in hes head that he would rather shoot a young luion than go home empty handed is completely wrong. It is PH'S and clients who think like this that will contribute to lion numbers decreasing immensly.

There are certain companies in Tanzania that are very strict on their lion management programs. Yes they may shoot two or three old lions per year but I can guarantee you that the lions they shoot are old monsters. One thing is for sure they now have the best lion hunting areas in Tanzania by far in terms of Quality and Quantity. Now imagine if they shot young lions do you really think their areas would be so good?

quote:

Originally posted by Ndorobo: And for a client to have the mentality in his head that he would rather shoot a young lion than go home empty handed is completely wrong.

Ndorobo, I'm glad you mentioned this because so far, this very point has been missed. Why is there a need to acquire every animal on the 'shopping list'. Is it ego on the part of the hunter or is the determining factor the desire on the part of the PH to put a few more dollars in his pocket.
After 40yrs of hunting and fishing I fully understand that luck plays a part in the success of any hunting venture, whether it be with a rifle or a rod. To me it seems the only part that luck plays in some African hunting is the size of the trophy, luck has only a very small part in being able to find and hunt a particular animal.

I can't comment on the age of that particular lion, but in view of what's been said by others who do have some degree of expertise, I'm damned if I can see the ethics in pulling the trigger on that animal. I couldn't justify to myself, but then again, I don't have to.

Aaron states that this thread is not directed at the hunter (client) and rightly so. However it does impact on him and will leave a very sour taste in his mouth. He can be somewhat comforted by the fact that his post does raise awareness to the plight of wild Lions and the consequences of irresponsible actions of a PH. I can honestly say that I myself have been guilty of taking borderline cats and my excuse is that the aging a Lion in the field can be problematic. This cat is neither borderline or difficult to age. This was a really bad call from the professional and one who should know better. The other trophies taken were outstanding and this is not by chance as Abie is a flippin good PH. The ramifications are that the publication of this particular Lion hunt could be damaging to our industry.

Renowned researchers and environmentalists quietly acknowledge that hunting combined with careful selection does not adversely impact on Lion populations, but they do however loudly vocalize that the shooting of young or breeding males is detrimental. Whether this is right or wrong we as hunters will be hard pressed to reverse this theory and now have to live with this international mindset.

In this case two Lions were seen and they are without doubt nomads - young Lion fending for themselves till they become of age. There is much evidence to suggest that the other will struggle to survive and not because of lack of food but more likely he will be wounded whilst hunting or killed by a rival pride male. Therefore the action of taking one young male could (and I stress possibly) lead to the demise of the other. Is it possible that many PHs know nothing about the social structure of Lion or indeed really care? Could also play the 'if it is legal' card?

Surely it is about time we all sat up, clients and PHs alike and be more aware of our practices and the consequences of our actions?

Something needs to be done or I for one will be out of a job and all because of the reckless nature of a fellow PH. Something that is beyond my control?

If Aaron and the like of Lane Easter can volunteer their time and money to help promote the sport and the continuation of big game hunting then I certainly will support them here?