Aaron, I appreciate what you're doing on the Lion issue. I saw the pending demise of Lion hunting in Africa coming 13 years ago and began speaking about the problems and encouraging those who didn't have a Lion to start planning immediately to participate in a dedicated Lion safari, before Lion was closed throughout Africa. It's taken a bit longer to get to where we are than I expected, but we're there now, never the less.

I took my own advice and in 2001 for my 11th safari I did 21 days in the Selous with a very reputable company on a dedicated Lion safari, along with one of my hunting partners who agreed with my predictions. Lion was the last animal I needed to complete the Big 5 and Dangerous 7. I hunted hard for simba, taking Hippo and 2x Buff, Zebra and assorted large PG for baits. After checking baits daily for 14 days, my PH and I spotted a male Lion moving with a female. After looking them over my PH said to me "You can take him if you want." I couldn't believe what I'd just heard. This was a very young male, still showing visible spots on his hind legs. It was my belief the older female was likely his mommy. I politely declined to shoot the male Lion. Two days later the PH said to me while we were driving and checking baits, "I'm glad you didn't shoot that Lion, although he was legal." I grunted an acknowledgement and said no more. Both my partner and I completed our 21 day Tanzania 1x1 Lion hunt without ever seeing what we considered to be a shootable male and went home without our Lions and short a substantial amount of cash.

Three years later, for my 14th safari in 2004, I again conducted another 21 day dedicated Lion safari. This time I chose the Luangwa Valley of Zambia. Zambia was just coming off a hunting closure that had lasted a few years. My partner and I essentially put together our own safari with a reputable PH we selected ourselves to hunt the Mwanya concession that was then controlled by a Zambian national. After 11 days of hard hunting I killed a monster old boy who was arguably the largest Lion to come out of Zambia at that time. I posted his pic here, after being urged to do so, sometime back.

While I always regretted spending what was, for me, a lot of money and not getting a Selous lion, I never regretted my decision to pass on what was an obviously young male. That's why we call it hunting and not shopping, IMO. After all, one either has standards or one doesn't. That applies to PHs as well as clients.

quote:

Will if you personally believe that a 25 lbs leopard is a mistake then you truly know nothing about hunting.

That's the problem about these forums, the ones with very little experience come out crapping on people who have been there. Apparently being from Tanz doesn't make you a hunting expert.

The guy with the least experience is the one above making the most profound statements about which he knows nothing apparently.

All the rantings of Aaron isn't going to change anything but discourage the next guy from posting his hunt report.

The blacks there will kill anything they can snare, the young lions included with the old lions, including the cubs.

And next week someone will start crying about the lions killing off all the buffalo somewhere as justification for killing every lion in sight, for a large fee of course.

Your criticism of this poor, unsuspecting soul will come back to haunt you someday. And maybe it should have already. Someday when you justify shooting another big, black-maned lion because it is on quota and you wind up shooting a lioness hidden of the far side of the lion, will we get the complete, unadulterated, and truthful hunt report? After all, "accidents do not happen."

Get off this guy's ass.

Will,

I find your last post slightly confusing. There is reference to a miniature Leopard, a bloke from Tanzania, a ranting agent and the hint of an accidental shooting of a Lioness?

Why are these pertinent to this topic? The gist of the thread was if we carry on shooting the young of a threatened or sensitive specie then we as hunters will suffer the consequences.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Will, Its not about experience ( actually I do have more experience than you ever will, just by looking at your comments says it all) or where your from its about whats right and whats wrong. And shooting a young lion is WRONG, face it.
Will you really are a joke Please take your comments and my comments to ANYBODY who actually knows anything about lions and they will laugh in your face. Your a Joke with your comments.

Aaron is not discouraging people from posting their reports all he is doing is helping the situation. He is letting people know that shooting young lions is nothing to be proud of. This will educate hunters that the next time they are in the field and the PH says shoot that lion the hunter will think twice. But if you think losing a couple of hunt reports with young animals is more important than getting a message out to people that would help in conserving the lion population then you need to think twice about why you are hunting!

Come on Ndorobo, Will wrote a book and Dresses like John Sharp, and has seen multiple 25 lb Leopards shot, so he must know more than you,

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Will if you personally believe that a 25 lbs leopard is a mistake then you truly know nothing about hunting.

That's the problem about these forums, the ones with very little experience come out crapping on people who have been there. Apparently being from Tanz doesn't make you a hunting expert.

The guy with the least experience is the one above making the most profound statements about which he knows nothing apparently.

All the rantings of Aaron isn't going to change anything but discourage the next guy from posting his hunt report.

The blacks there will kill anything they can snare, the young lions included with the old lions, including the cubs.

And next week someone will start crying about the lions killing off all the buffalo somewhere as justification for killing every lion in sight, for a large fee of course.

Your criticism of this poor, unsuspecting soul will come back to haunt you someday. And maybe it should have already. Someday when you justify shooting another big, black-maned lion because it is on quota and you wind up shooting a lioness hidden of the far side of the lion, will we get the complete, unadulterated, and truthful hunt report? After all, "accidents do not happen."

Get off this guy's ass.

Bill,

I have always thought of you as a friend...but...after reading this post I am convinced you have no grasp of the concept or definition of the terms ethical or professional when they are used in conjunction with the term hunter.

Quit trying to convince people that you have been there and done that and WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE SIR!

quote:

Crazy,
My Dad's home ranch is just past the 199 281 Y outside of Jacksboro. My family runs cattle all over that part of the country. Maybe I'll run onto you one of these days when passing through.

I am sure that we might get along better in person than on the internet, if you are ever coming thru Olney contact me and maybe we can find out if we are each as big an asshole as the other thinks.

We could use a Vet here in Olney ours is very sick and the prognosis is not good.

On the topic at hand, if a person just has to have a lion, seems to me that they could go pick one off the farm in South Africa.

If a sportsman/woman, has to have a wild lion then they need to gather some basic knowledge on the social structure of lions and learn just exactly where older males fall in that system.

In the countries with huntable numbers of lions, protocol needs to be established as to what a "Shootable" male lion is.

Until that happens, clients spending that kind of money and Safari companies doing the hunts are going to continue doing business as usual.

Regardless of the fact that it is Africa and Lions, in the end, it is just like game laws here in America, Peer Pressure is not going to stop anything.

Until regulations are established that specify what a "Legal" lion is, how to identify it, and the penalties for not obeying those rules, things are not going to change.

Clients will not knowingly regulate themselves on a large enough scale to have any noticeable effect.

With clients paying out that kind of money, the desire/drive to kill something as long as it is "Legal" begins to replace the "Nothing But A Real Trophy" thought patterns the farther into the hunt they get, especially if they are seeing "Legal" animals, even though those "Legal" animals should not be being shot.

If the Outfitter/PH, knows going in that any lion shot has to be of a certain age class or older, and if he/she allows an animal that does not meet that criteria to be shot, they face loss of hunting priveledges in that country, a fine, and jail time.

In fact it might be nice, although probably not workable to set up something like the Game Law Violator Compact we have here in America, but targeted at Lions Only.

If a PH is found guilty of allowing a non-legal lion to be killed they would not be able to hold a license in any of the member countries, and not just to hunt lions, but to hunt anything.

Sorry for the rant, but I for one do not believe peer pressure will ever solve anything in this issue.

Folks, the facts are this.

1. Lion Hunting is currently under more pressure in Africa, than any specie in the past 20 years.

2. Without lion hunting, many TZ & Zambia outfitters would struggle mightly to survive. This of course, would have a huge impact on the future of all hunting in these countries. Without the revenue generated from legal lion hunting, many of the companies would not be able to continue to provide money to the communities, fight poaching, etc, etc.

3. The lion shot was 2-3 yrs old, period! It was a conscious decision, made to satisfy the hunter's desire to "get one". Pathetic and disgraceful.

4. Muchinga Adventures was getting 9 lion on quota is their two areas, now it has been reduced to 4. They of course are suing ZAWA, hopefully ZAWA wins this one!!!

5. "WILL", I'll ask you the same question I asked another guy a few weeks ago. Have you ever done this before???

6. I have hunted lions many times, and will continue to do so, any chance I get. In fact I am hunting one in CAR starting next week. If I find an old/mature lion, regardless of his mane, I will surely shoot him. If I don't, I won't, its that simple.

7. My #1 concern is for the lion, the lion's future in Africa, and the continued necessity for legal lion hunting. In the past 2 months, Dr. Lane Easter & I, have spent countless hours on the newly formed LION CONSERVATION TASK FORCE. We have included EVERY SINGLE leading scientist in the world, as it pertains to the African LION! We have not had one yet, that says legal/ethical and properly managed LION HUNTING, is NOT vitally necessary to the continued survival of the lion, and Africa's wildlife as a whole!

Guys, do the lion and the rest of the African Wildlife a favor. Please be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

Look fellows...Aaron and I have put together a coalition of experts from all walks of life as they pertain to the lion. We have dubbed this coalition the "Lion Conservation Task Force". The LCTF has actually gained some momentum in the last few months and some folks are listening.

We discussed this lion photo and decided something must be said. We were kind of drawing straws when Aaron,being the leader he is, said "guys I'll do it," even though he knew he would get the most flack from it.

So...please...get off of Aaron's back and focus on the topic...lion conservation. If he had not of posted it...one of the other members would have.

Aaron meant NO disrespect to the hunter...but...this had to be brought up. And yes...myself or Aaron will be happy to make these comments to Abie...as...he IS being part of the problem.

It is NOT a debate...that lion was a 2 or 3 year old. And...as fairgame pointed out...Abie knew that.

quote:

5. "WILL", I'll ask you the same question I asked another guy a few weeks ago. Have you ever done this before???

Ever done what?

Aren't you sorry you started this?

Seems to me that it boils down to shooting a "young lion" (whatever that is) versus shooting a mature lion.

The justification of shooting an old lion is that it was on quota. The justification for shooting a young lion is that it was on quota.

Seems that shooting a breeding old lion is worse than shooting a young one.

So shooting old guys like me is better than shooting than shooting teenagers? I must disagree!

quote:

We could use a Vet here in Olney ours is very sick and the prognosis is not good.

I know him well and have all my life.

quote:

After 11 days of hard hunting I killed a monster old boy who was arguably the largest Lion to come out of Zambia at that time. I posted his pic here, after being urged to do so, sometime back.

LionHunter,

Could you please show us the pics of your lion again???

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

5. "WILL", I'll ask you the same question I asked another guy a few weeks ago. Have you ever done this before???

Ever done what?

Aren't you sorry you started this?

Seems to me that it boils down to shooting a "young lion" (whatever that is) versus shooting a mature lion.

The justification of shooting an old lion is that it was on quota. The justification for shooting a young lion is that it was on quota.

Seems that shooting a breeding old lion is worse than shooting a young one.

So shooting old guys like me is better than shooting than shooting teenagers? I must disagree!

Bill - Honestly man, the lack of knowledge that you, and many others, have as it pertains to the lion is really freightening. Take a few months, spend some time learning about the science behind proper lion hunting as a management/conservation tool. Learn the science behind rationale for shooting/hunting only mature lions that hopefully are 6+ yrs of age. Reasons for NOT shooting youngs lions, not shooting males with a dependent pride, etc. Maybe spend some time talking to Dr. Packer, Dr. Begg, Dr. White, Panthera, Dr. Easter, Dr. Derr, etc, etc. Perhaps some actual knowledge/experience, might help you see the reasons the lion experts of the world are ALL in favor of the same lion hunting practices.

Aaron,

Calm down.

Tell me why it is okay to shoot old breeding lions and why it is not okay to shoot young non-breeding lions.

From what I have read from the "science community" it boils down too much poaching (the greatest threat), the sacred-cow ceremonial killings, and shooting too many lions.

And where does shooting lioness come into the picture?

Seems to me one should be cautious about throwing stones, eh?

quote:

Bill - Honestly man, the lack of knowledge that you, and many others, have as it pertains to the lion is really freightening. Take a few months, spend some time learning about the science behind proper lion hunting as a management/conservation tool. Learn the science behind rationale for shooting/hunting only mature lions that hopefully are 6+ yrs of age. Reasons for NOT shooting youngs lions, not shooting males with a dependent pride, etc. Maybe spend some time talking to Dr. Packer, Dr. Begg, Dr. White, Panthera, Dr. Easter, Dr. Derr, etc, etc. Perhaps some actual knowledge/experience, might help you see the reasons the lion experts of the world are ALL in favor of the same lion hunting practices.

Aaron:

I don't know you but you seem quite knowledgeable and passionate about the subject. Certainly, you know more about lion conservation than the vast majority of us. I suspect it's not the message but just the manner in which you've tried to convey it in this thread.

Your first post was inflammatory (I didn't say necessarily wrong) and your last post is condescending. There are plenty of us on here that would love to know more about conservation policies and would likely be interested in supporting this in whatever manner we could.

If as another poster suggested, a few of you got together to decide how best to handle the taking of this lion, and this is the only result, I'd think hard about finding some new advisors.

After reading all this I mostly just feel bad for the poor chap who anted up all the cash and was once quite proud of his lion. I wonder how he feels now? Irrespective of the poor decision by the PH, the guy tried to share his hunt. And got crapped on...

Jeff

Using the following "loaded" words to describe someones actions:

"Pathetic and disgraceful.."

at least in my somewhat measured opinion, seldom accomplishes the purpose of the writer.

Because of the used language, I think this discussion has become a pissing match between folks who have had their feathers ruffled and has lost its original purpose of discouraging the taking of immature lions. All of us want to see lions around and in huntable numbers forever.

Of course, I don't begin to claim that I know anything about the science of maintaining a huntable population of lions, but I know well how to piss off people by using words that place values on ones character instead of educating the actor and the public. Though I know better, I've all too often gotten fired up about something and said inflamatory stuff instead of presenting solid facts to educate or convince others of the correctness of my position.

That said, I respectively agree with most of the below post, except for the last sentence (which, of course, contains its own "zinger" about the competence of Aaron and the advisors). Next time, just using a bit more tact will win over more supportes, at least, IMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:

quote:

Bill - Honestly man, the lack of knowledge that you, and many others, have as it pertains to the lion is really freightening. Take a few months, spend some time learning about the science behind proper lion hunting as a management/conservation tool. Learn the science behind rationale for shooting/hunting only mature lions that hopefully are 6+ yrs of age. Reasons for NOT shooting youngs lions, not shooting males with a dependent pride, etc. Maybe spend some time talking to Dr. Packer, Dr. Begg, Dr. White, Panthera, Dr. Easter, Dr. Derr, etc, etc. Perhaps some actual knowledge/experience, might help you see the reasons the lion experts of the world are ALL in favor of the same lion hunting practices.

Aaron:

I don't know you but you seem quite knowledgeable and passionate about the subject. Certainly, you know more about lion conservation than the vast majority of us. I suspect it's not the message but just the manner in which you've tried to convey it in this thread.

Your first post was inflammatory (I didn't say necessarily wrong) and your last post is condescending. There are plenty of us on here that would love to know more about conservation policies and would likely be interested in supporting this in whatever manner we could.

If as another poster suggested, a few of you got together to decide how best to handle the taking of this lion, and this is the only result, I'd think hard about finding some new advisors.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
After reading all this I mostly just feel bad for the poor chap who anted up all the cash and was once quite proud of his lion. I wonder how he feels now? Irrespective of the poor decision by the PH, the guy tried to share his hunt. And got crapped on...

Jeff

+1

What was accomplished other than to make the poor guy feel like he should be ashamed of his lion? All the guy tried to do was share his hunt with you all and look how most have acted. As far as the antis, this kind of thread surely draws more attention than a couple of pics in a hunting report and regardless of what we as hunters do they are going to hate us anyway but shitslinging on the internet surely doesn't help our case. This really could have been addressed in a more constructive fashion AFTER all the facts were know and perhaps could even have been done without the hunter and PH being named and singled out.

quote:

Using the following "loaded" words to describe someones actions:

"Pathetic and disgraceful.."

at least in my somewhat measured opinion, seldom accomplishes the purpose of the writer.

Because of the used language, I think this discussion has become a pissing match between folks who have had their feathers ruffled and has lost its original purpose of discouraging the taking of immature lions. All of us want to see lions around and in huntable numbers forever.

Judge,

In this instance regarding that lion...it was hard to find better language.

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
After reading all this I mostly just feel bad for the poor chap who anted up all the cash and was once quite proud of his lion. I wonder how he feels now? Irrespective of the poor decision by the PH, the guy tried to share his hunt. And got crapped on...

Jeff

+1

What was accomplished other than to make the poor guy feel like he should be ashamed of his lion? All the guy tried to do was share his hunt with you all and look how most have acted. As far as the antis, this kind of thread surely draws more attention than a couple of pics in a hunting report and regardless of what we as hunters do they are going to hate us anyway but shitslinging on the internet surely doesn't help our case. This really could have been addressed in a more constructive fashion AFTER all the facts were know and perhaps could even have been done without the hunter and PH being named and singled out.

Cane Rat, JudgeG and others - Certainly to some degree I should apologize if my intentions here seem directed at the hunter, or his safari. I also should use the Judge's advice, and find a way to more appropriately choose my words. I do not want this to degrade simply to a pissing match, and personal insults.

However, I strongly stand by my decision to call out the PH, and the operator in this matter. Some ask, what's being accomplished here? Well, I hope that peer pressure, along with facts/knowledge, as they pertain to proper lion hunting management, is what is accomplished here. LIONS like this must not, cannot not, and should not be shot, for any reason. If we as the hunters are NOT willing to police this problem, and work to put a stop to it. Believe me, others will!! If someone's feelings get hurt, well I'm sorry for that.

Fact is, the picture of this 2-3 yr old lion will surely surface, and Lane and I, as we have been doing for 2 months now. Will listen to the opposition, tell us how all lions shot are just like this one, PH's/outfitters have no concern for wildlife conservation, and the hunter only cares about "getting one". When they present this particular incident as continued evidence for a lion hunting closure. I'll be sure to tell them that I really can't say much, as I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, and I wouldn't want to single out any particular PH, as that wouldn't be "fair"!!!! After that, I'll let ya know how that works out for us and the lion!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
After reading all this I mostly just feel bad for the poor chap who anted up all the cash and was once quite proud of his lion. I wonder how he feels now? Irrespective of the poor decision by the PH, the guy tried to share his hunt. And got crapped on...

Jeff

+1

What was accomplished other than to make the poor guy feel like he should be ashamed of his lion? All the guy tried to do was share his hunt with you all and look how most have acted. As far as the antis, this kind of thread surely draws more attention than a couple of pics in a hunting report and regardless of what we as hunters do they are going to hate us anyway but shitslinging on the internet surely doesn't help our case. This really could have been addressed in a more constructive fashion AFTER all the facts were know and perhaps could even have been done without the hunter and PH being named and singled out.

I do not see anything positive from all this exchange. Unfortunately, we see much of the same sort of presentations posted......

quote:

Tell me why it is okay to shoot old breeding lions and why it is not okay to shoot young non-breeding lions.

From what I have read from the "science community" it boils down too much poaching (the greatest threat), the sacred-cow ceremonial killings, and shooting too many lions

Bill,

Lions 6+ are on the end of the breeding cycle. Rarely do 8 & 8+ lions hold prides. 6 & 7 are the kicking out years. It would be better to shoot only 8+ year old lions however the statistics show that removal of only 6 and > lions will NOT have impact and the difference of going to 8 rather than 6 in Tanzania was NOT significant...hence...the 6 year old rule.

Young prebreeding males have yet to pass on their genes and are dependent on each other in coalitions to survive see fairgame's post.

Poaching is NOT that huge of a factor in the big scheme of things and as stated...when only 6+ are shot hunting hurts nothing. Loss of habitat and growing human populations along with retalitory killings via poison are the lions biggest enemies.

If y'all will just listen to Aaron and quit the pissing...you'll learn something. We (Aaron & I) have spent quite a bit of time getting the facts. And...Aaron will be the first to admit that he has learned some new stuff as well.

Aaron is the good guy here...NOT...the enemy.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
After reading all this I mostly just feel bad for the poor chap who anted up all the cash and was once quite proud of his lion. I wonder how he feels now? Irrespective of the poor decision by the PH, the guy tried to share his hunt. And got crapped on...

Jeff

+1

What was accomplished other than to make the poor guy feel like he should be ashamed of his lion? All the guy tried to do was share his hunt with you all and look how most have acted. As far as the antis, this kind of thread surely draws more attention than a couple of pics in a hunting report and regardless of what we as hunters do they are going to hate us anyway but shitslinging on the internet surely doesn't help our case. This really could have been addressed in a more constructive fashion AFTER all the facts were know and perhaps could even have been done without the hunter and PH being named and singled out.

Cane Rat, JudgeG and others - Certainly to some degree I should apologize if my intentions here seem directed at the hunter, or his safari. I also should use the Judge's advice, and find a way to more appropriately choose my words. I do not want this to degrade simply to a pissing match, and personal insults.

However, I strongly stand by my decision to call out the PH, and the operator in this matter. Some ask, what's being accomplished here? Well, I hope that peer pressure, along with facts/knowledge, as they pertain to proper lion hunting management, is what is accomplished here. LIONS like this must not, cannot not, and should not be shot, for any reason. If we as the hunters are NOT willing to police this problem, and work to put a stop to it. Believe me, others will!! If someone's feelings get hurt, well I'm sorry for that.

Fact is, the picture of this 2-3 yr old lion will surely surface, and Lane and I, as we have been doing for 2 months now. Will listen to the opposition, tell us how all lions shot are just like this one, PH's/outfitters have no concern for wildlife conservation, and the hunter only cares about "getting one". When they present this particular incident as continued evidence for a lion hunting closure. I'll be sure to tell them that I really can't say much, as I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, and I wouldn't want to single out any particular PH, as that wouldn't be "fair"!!!! After that, I'll let ya know how that works out for us and the lion!!!

Aaron,

While I agree with you I find the manner in which you and a few others have chosen to make your argument rather distasteful. Discussing this with PHAZ or ZAWA, for instance, and singling out PHs and clients is one thing but to do so on a public forum before anyone even knows all the facts surrounding it is quite another. Just my $0.02.

Judge and others,

If you try a case where an older guy has slept with an under-aged girl and coerced her into it (and the facts show it) and she later claims stautory rape...do you give the guy a pass??? cause after all...he was just trying to get some...and every guy wants to do that!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Judge and others,

If you try a case where an older guy has slept with an under-aged girl and coerced her into it (and the facts show it) and she later claims stautory rape...do you give the guy a pass cause after all...he was just trying to get some...and every guy wants to do that!

I won't begin to suggest I even know what this is getting at but ... Once again you're attempting to deal with this in legal terms. And no one here has suggested anything illegal occurred, have they?

We as hunters...must look...with our eyes open...and realize what is going on...learn...adapt...then institute plans for change...or...it WILL be done for us...AND...the LION...will loose in the end as there will be NO place for him in evolving Africa.

quote:

I won't begin to suggest I even know what this is getting at but ... Once again you're attempting to deal with this in legal terms. And no one here has suggested anything illegal occurred, have they?

Not yet...but stick around for the 2011 Tanzania season.

Then...if the uplisting is successful...stick around for the rest of your life as a US citizen.

That IS what we are trying say fellows if WE don't act now...it is going to be criminal soon. And this lion would be already in 2011 in Tz.

Aaron and Ledvm,

Thank you! Thank you for what you are doing.
I realize that you have ruffled some feathers but so be it. I find it nuts that to be in the Big 5 club one has to 'dart' a rhino. Is it just me or is that on the verge of stupidity?

Before long we will be darting lions.

If this trend continues we'll all have to become dart experts.

Guys & Gals...we are doing what seems to happen every time...we are fighting amongst ourselves.

This is a cut and dry case whare a PH made a decision that was wrong and every PH worth his salt will stand up and agree.

If we can tone down the rhetoric (myself included)...we could ban together and save the lion.

The real experts are ACTUALLY ON OUR SIDE. They just want us to police ourselves. And sometimes...the law of peer pressure is the only law we have.

Please...just learn the facts...and then lets ban together and save the lion!

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
After reading all this I mostly just feel bad for the poor chap who anted up all the cash and was once quite proud of his lion. I wonder how he feels now? Irrespective of the poor decision by the PH, the guy tried to share his hunt. And got crapped on...

Jeff


+1

What was accomplished other than to make the poor guy feel like he should be ashamed of his lion? All the guy tried to do was share his hunt with you all and look how most have acted. As far as the antis, this kind of thread surely draws more attention than a couple of pics in a hunting report and regardless of what we as hunters do they are going to hate us anyway but shitslinging on the internet surely doesn't help our case. This really could have been addressed in a more constructive fashion AFTER all the facts were know and perhaps could even have been done without the hunter and PH being named and singled out.

X 10000.....

Wow! Log off early and you miss all the fun. My IN box is full of new e-mails with links to this thread plus threats and rebuttals.

I read everything in my IN box and then started on this thread. It seems to me that everything pertinent has been said plus a whole lot of verbage and strongly stated opinions from folks with little to no personal experience with lions or Africa. It seems it has now degenerated into a bunch of individual squabbles.

I do have some observations on this.

1. I can't comment on the lion's age because I'm not an expert. That lion is not what I will be looking for when I hunt lion with the Du Plooys next year but I've been on four lion hunts previously and have a pretty definite picture of what I'm looking for. I unlike a lot of clients have little anxiety about going home without a lion.

2. I can comment on the Du Plooys and Muchinga Adventures. Clients just love them. They always deliver what they say will from pick up in Lusaka through the hunt and the shipping of trophies. They also are the easiest of companies to do business with for the us as agents and for the clients. If I send a client to the Du Plooys I know they will be taken excelent care of.

3. I'm sure this thread has left a lasting negative inpression on wrldhunter. He had been encouaged to post his report and he got blind sided with this. I feel bad for him. I think if feelings ran so strong concerning his safari that something had to be said that direct correspondence with the safari operator and a seperate thread addressing the subject of taking young lions could have achieved that same result without making it about wrldhunters safari.

4. I also agree that this thread will discourage others from posting their reports. Who wants to work for hours organizing a great report when there is a good chance of getting shredded. I promise you that even if I kill a monster lion with Johnny in '12 I'm not posting a picture of it. Perhaps I'll just photoshop one of Aarons big cats.

Mark

I would be interested what the trophy fee is for Muchinga for a lion. I see more and more proposals for lion hunts with lower daily rates and very large trophy fees. The prospect of a $25K+ trophy fee would probably be a motivator for many PHs to tell the hunter to shoot the cat. I have very limited cat experience but most lions I have seen were in poor light conditions where the PHs go or no go is all you have to go on. Perhaps the outfitters need to agree to very low capped trophy fees for lion to motivate the PHs to say no more often. It may cause fewer hunters to hunt lions but in the long run I think it might weed out some of the offenders.

so where was all the support 3 years ago when I was being labelled "elitist" for pointing out young lions posted here on AR?

Better late then never I suppose....

LJS,

Muchinga's lion trophy fee is $6,500. When you see those huge tophy fees and low daily fees look closely at the chances of success. I would bet the chances of a shooting oppurtunity are probably quite low.

Mark

Next time this happens it might be better to contact the poster and let him/her know the said lion was not up to snuff (pun intended) and suggest it be redacted or removed. Then contact the PH and and outfitter.

Like many of you, I heard many times to go to Africa and "get my lion" before it was too late. I always thought, "Well, I can't hunt tigers and I don't miss hunting them, so what is the big deal about a lion?"

But I went anyway. My PH and Luke Samaris both thought my lion was at least 8 years. I have no idea. I do remember seeing a young male that my PH said was way too young. Hell, if he told me to shoot it, I would have. But I didn't argue either; there is only poster who has never shot a lion but can age them to the day, but it isn't me. I shot my lion on the 16th day, and having shot an ele and a 25 pound leopard, I was quite happy to go home without a lion. But I got lucky.

Now having shot one lion, I am not sure I care to do it again. And like Mark, I sure as hell am not going to post any pics. But then again, I never have; just not my style. But Luke showed it during the shows, so if you want, you can see it there.

I do feel bad for the guy who shot the lion. But I also appreciate the work of levdm and Aaron.

Can we get back to the Blair thread now?

Mark,
I completely agree with you, AR has become a very hostile place...on many different topics, not just hunting trophies. And it surely is turning people off, myself included.

I don't post as much as I used to because I'm tired of getting crapped on...by armchair gurus.

I think the work Lane and Aaron are doing for lions is great, and I'm completely in support of it...however blasting this guy for what looks like an incredible hunt with his dad is not the approach I would have taken.

So now I sit back, and await the ugly smiley faces and coarse words of scathe to come!

quote:

Lions 6+ are on the end of the breeding cycle. Rarely do 8 & 8+ lions hold prides. 6 & 7 are the kicking out years. It would be better to shoot only 8+ year old lions however the statistics show that removal of only 6 and > lions will NOT have impact and the difference of going to 8 rather than 6 in Tanzania was NOT significant...hence...the 6 year old rule.

Really? What if that 6 year old has a pride full of cubs? This statement seems very inconsistant IMO. If the COMPLETE goal inside lion hunting circles is truly to eliminate infanticide, the killing of two or more young males who are dependant on each other for safety (1 by a hunter and the survivor by other lions), or the preservation of young males until they can "pass their genetics on", is that actually being accomplished with the 6+ theory? Or has that age actually been set because if the 8+ year limit would eliminate most chances of successful lion hunting?

quote:

Judge and others,

If you try a case where an older guy has slept with an under-aged girl and coerced her into it (and the facts show it) and she later claims stautory rape...do you give the guy a pass??? cause after all...he was just trying to get some...and every guy wants to do that!

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DRSS

quote:

Guys & Gals...we are doing what seems to happen every time...we are fighting amongst ourselves.

Gees, I wonder why that is?

quote:

If we can tone down the rhetoric (myself included)...we could ban together and save the lion.

this is good advice.

quote:

Please...just learn the facts...and then lets ban together and save the lion!

Your tone and aggressive behaviour discourages me from banning together with you for anything. I feel comfortable saying that as I am guilty of the same at times.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:


Guys, do the lion and the rest of the African Wildlife a favor. Please be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

I would love to get more infos on your project and the scientific background on it.
I think it would help to publish a article about your concept and the reason why we need it without polemic and pointing fingers, just the facts and what we can/should do to help.

dennis

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Your tone and aggressive behaviour discourages me from banning together with you for anything. I feel comfortable saying that as I am guilty of the same at times.

Brad - I hope you will join us, as Dr. Easter speaks from science/experience, and knowledge. Remember, the 6 yr old plus "rule", is just that, a "rule of thumb". Certainly there can be exceptions, as in the case you mention. Any male holding a pride with dependent cubs should NOT BE SHOT, period. How old is he? Who knows, who cares, don't shoot him. Shooting 2-3 yr old lions, man is that bad!

quote:

I think if feelings ran so strong concerning his safari that something had to be said that direct correspondence with the safari operator and a seperate thread addressing the subject of taking young lions could have achieved that same result without making it about wrldhunters safari.

Mark,

This is probably the wisest thing posted in the last page and a half of this thread. Well done.

I know that emotions and anxieties are high on this and other major hunting issues; however, we collectively will be more effective and successful if we maintain civil discourse and rational thought.