quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
..... it does matter if you shoot 1 pride male.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Folks - I'm gonna make one final post regarding this thread, and this particular situation. Some will agree, some will not. I knew that before I started this mess, but frankly not saying something, never even cross my mind.

Normally I too say, leave other hunters to their own standards/desires, etc. I for one would no longer consider shooting a 2-3 yr old 120" - 140" whitetail, it just doesn't appeal to me, and it seems such a waste not to let the animal reach maturity. BUT, if others hunters do it/like it/enjoy it, I say, good for them! I'm am sincerely happy for others who choose to hunt, likely for some of the same reasons I do. The whitetail is a hugely successful specie all across our country, and hardly in any danger of decline, an ESA listing, etc.

The lion on the other hand, a totally different story! Lion numbers across Africa, the WHOLE of Africa, are debatable. But less than 50,000, I could believe that. Hell, Texas alone has an estimated deer population of what, 3 million plus?? With a population of Lions that is certainly threatened locally, and under intense pressure from an ever-expanding local population/loss of habitat, and other competing interests. We as hunters, operating in the last great lion refuges outside of National Parks, which just so happens to be hunting blocks all across east/south Africa. Are the last line of defense for the lion, his habitat, and the wildlife he depends on for survival. If we ourselves are not willing to be stewards of the lion, why would you think the "world" should continue to look favorably on lion hunting, or hunting in Africa at all?? If we continue to prove to them that we are more concerned about success/profit as it pertains to the lion, then we certainly must feel that way about all other African species too, right? Thus, it only seems logical that any non-hunter/anti-hunter, would have no reason to support us as it pertains to any legal hunting issue across Africa. If we cannot police ourselves, on this most important issue facing African Hunting right now. We will never get the support from any of the non-hunting community to do so in the future.

Continued Lion Hunting, especially in Zambia/Tanzania is SO vitally important to the continuation of ALL the hunting blocks, its importance in my opinion is completely over-looked by almost everyone, and many here on AR too. A couple very simple examples will illustrate my point. In Zambia/Tanzania, in the vast majority of cases with hunting companies, and their hunting blocks, the LION is their big ticket item! I'll use my good friend, Richard Bell-Cross' Lunga-Luswhshi GMA as an example. He currently gets, and maintained his 3 lion on quota per year. 3 Lion hunts, at roughly $60k each, is a huge portion of his annual income. Income that is used to NOT only support himself/family, but is ALSO used to support ALL of the anti-poaching efforts put forth by Pro-Hunt Zambia Ltd, the community efforts, etc, etc. Without continued Lion Hunting, he would struggle mightly to stay in business, period! The operation in which he currently runs, to include the things I mentioned above, would simply become too costly, and he simply would not be able to sustain, or at minimum huge cut-backs would certainly be necessary. So, once that happened, I ask you one simple question. Who would take over the efforts put-forth by Pro-Hunt to protect the Lunga Luswishi from poaching?? Answer: NO ONE!!!!! This same scenario would repeat itself time and time again, all across Zambia/Tanzania.

Muchinga Adventures itself, is a prime example of the loss we are already facing. Recently their lion quota was reduced from 9 to 4. Just like that, poof, gone! You don't think that's gonna have a huge effect on their bottom line, their ability to support themselves, the community, and the anti-poaching efforts they put forth as well? How could it not?? No one I know, including Dr. Paula White can account for the exact reasoning behind the Zambian quota reduction, although several of us have our theories, have heard rumors, etc. However, Dr. Easter and I can attest that photos of these obviously YOUNG lions, like the one in question, are being used frequently by the anti-hunting, and scientific communities, as they call for change, and in some cases, a complete elimination of ALL lion hunting. And ironically they do so, without the slightest clue as to the hugely detrimental effect that closing lion hunting, or reducing the quotas to such a low number, would have on the operator and his ability to run/protect his area, and MORE IMPORTANTLY, the game within these areas. If an operator can no longer afford to operate his block/blocks, he will have no choice but to abandon them, period! Once that happens, locals move in, poaching takes over, and the game, ALL THE GAME, not just the lion, is eventually eliminated. This very scenario has already happened, time & time again, and will continue, if we contribute to our own demise. (If you need another example of this VERY scenario recently playing out in Tanzania. Ask Bwanamich and Wendell Reich, to give you their run down on the Kigosi Game Reserve over the past couple years)

Bottom line, loose lion hunting and the loss will be so much more devastating than most are remotely considering. Muchinga Adventures, just like ALL of the rest of the Zambian/Tanzanian operators have a huge responsibility on their shoulders right now, and a huge target on their backs. Their decision to intentionally harvest a 2-3 yr old lion, has a negative impact, so much wider and broad reaching than just themselves. Evident by the recent country-wide reduction in lion quota, from 65 to 45! Evident by the petition to up-list the lion on the ESA, in which pictures of young lions just like this one, have recently been used to make their case. Evident by the new mandated 6 yr old law in Tanzania, and the list goes on.

Although I have upset some folks here, my intention was not to do so. My intention was to raise continued awareness to the problem, and frankly the complexity of the problem, one that is much larger than I think 90% of the hunting community realizes. I know this, because along with other hard-working hunting activists, I am right in the middle of it. Unfortunately Muchinga was the example used here. It wasn't for any personal vendetta at all! I had no beef with them prior to this, none at all. Frankly, always heard good reports, and had no reason to think differently. Perhaps some took offense to my way of handling this, calling them out, etc. I will apologize for any un-necessary bantering about, it does sometimes take away from the message. However, I will NOT apologize for my decision to state the facts, and bring to the fore-front, a message that says "some of us will not stand for these poorly chosen actions any more". I will work tirelessly to rid the hunting fraternity of operators/PH's who will continue to make poor decisions as they pertain to lion management/hunting. A decision to shoot a lion like this has wide-ranging effects, effects much like the huge lion quota reduction, the ESA petition, and negative outcomes that effect ALL operators/PH's/hunters. When the poor decision of one, can effect the masses, the masses must must stand for change.

The LCTF will be working with the folks in Tanzania to make the killing of lions under 4 yrs old, illegal and non-exportable! We will also be asking for a fine for the PH, the operator, and an immediate reduction in quota. We are hoping to get a points system put in place, similar to the Niassa program, in Mozambique. Where Dr. Colleen Begg says, that since the inception of the program 7 yrs ago, it has been a very good success. When she started the Niassa Carnivore points system, she says that roughly 75% of the lions shot were under 6 yrs old. Now, with education and concern by ALL the operators, less than 25% of the lions shot each year in the Niassa are under 6. After Tanzania, our next goal is Zambia.

I do hope, if you personally have a concern for the lion, or African Wildlife in general, you will do your best to join us in Tanzania in June. Even as you read through this thread, I mention the importance of this workshop time & time again, and yet some find it nothing more than a joke? You may not like me, you may not always agree with me, but know that at least I'm there trying to fight for your sport, your passion, and your African Wildlife. I may not always make decisions you agree with, but I will do my best to always make them in favor of the wildlife.

My sincere regards,

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Folks - I'm gonna make one final post regarding this thread, and this particular situation. Some will agree, some will not. I knew that before I started this mess, but frankly not saying something, never even cross my mind.

Normally I too say, leave other hunters to their own standards/desires, etc. I for one would no longer consider shooting a 2-3 yr old 120" - 140" whitetail, it just doesn't appeal to me, and it seems such a waste not to let the animal reach maturity. BUT, if others hunters do it/like it/enjoy it, I say, good for them! I'm am sincerely happy for others who choose to hunt, likely for some of the same reasons I do. The whitetail is a hugely successful specie all across our country, and hardly in any danger of decline, an ESA listing, etc.

The lion on the other hand, a totally different story! Lion numbers across Africa, the WHOLE of Africa, are debatable. But less than 50,000, I could believe that. Hell, Texas alone has an estimated deer population of what, 3 million plus?? With a population of Lions that is certainly threatened locally, and under intense pressure from an ever-expanding local population/loss of habitat, and other competing interests. We as hunters, operating in the last great lion refuges outside of National Parks, which just so happens to be hunting blocks all across east/south Africa. Are the last line of defense for the lion, his habitat, and the wildlife he depends on for survival. If we ourselves are not willing to be stewards of the lion, why would you think the "world" should continue to look favorably on lion hunting, or hunting in Africa at all?? If we continue to prove to them that we are more concerned about success/profit as it pertains to the lion, then we certainly must feel that way about all other African species too, right? Thus, it only seems logical that any non-hunter/anti-hunter, would have no reason to support us as it pertains to any legal hunting issue across Africa. If we cannot police ourselves, on this most important issue facing African Hunting right now. We will never get the support from any of the non-hunting community to do so in the future.

Continued Lion Hunting, especially in Zambia/Tanzania is SO vitally important to the continuation of ALL the hunting blocks, its importance in my opinion is completely over-looked by almost everyone, and many here on AR too. A couple very simple examples will illustrate my point. In Zambia/Tanzania, in the vast majority of cases with hunting companies, and their hunting blocks, the LION is their big ticket item! I'll use my good friend, Richard Bell-Cross' Lunga-Luswhshi GMA as an example. He currently gets, and maintained his 3 lion on quota per year. 3 Lion hunts, at roughly $60k each, is a huge portion of his annual income. Income that is used to NOT only support himself/family, but is ALSO used to support ALL of the anti-poaching efforts put forth by Pro-Hunt Zambia Ltd, the community efforts, etc, etc. Without continued Lion Hunting, he would struggle mightly to stay in business, period! The operation in which he currently runs, to include the things I mentioned above, would simply become too costly, and he simply would not be able to sustain, or at minimum huge cut-backs would certainly be necessary. So, once that happened, I ask you one simple question. Who would take over the efforts put-forth by Pro-Hunt to protect the Lunga Luswishi from poaching?? Answer: NO ONE!!!!! This same scenario would repeat itself time and time again, all across Zambia/Tanzania.

Muchinga Adventures itself, is a prime example of the loss we are already facing. Recently their lion quota was reduced from 9 to 4. Just like that, poof, gone! You don't think that's gonna have a huge effect on their bottom line, their ability to support themselves, the community, and the anti-poaching efforts they put forth as well? How could it not?? No one I know, including Dr. Paula White can account for the exact reasoning behind the Zambian quota reduction, although several of us have our theories, have heard rumors, etc. However, Dr. Easter and I can attest that photos of these obviously YOUNG lions, like the one in question, are being used frequently by the anti-hunting, and scientific communities, as they call for change, and in some cases, a complete elimination of ALL lion hunting. And ironically they do so, without the slightest clue as to the hugely detrimental effect that closing lion hunting, or reducing the quotas to such a low number, would have on the operator and his ability to run/protect his area, and MORE IMPORTANTLY, the game within these areas. If an operator can no longer afford to operate his block/blocks, he will have no choice but to abandon them, period! Once that happens, locals move in, poaching takes over, and the game, ALL THE GAME, not just the lion, is eventually eliminated. This very scenario has already happened, time & time again, and will continue, if we contribute to our own demise. (If you need another example of this VERY scenario recently playing out in Tanzania. Ask Bwanamich and Wendell Reich, to give you their run down on the Kigosi Game Reserve over the past couple years)

Bottom line, loose lion hunting and the loss will be so much more devastating than most are remotely considering. Muchinga Adventures, just like ALL of the rest of the Zambian/Tanzanian operators have a huge responsibility on their shoulders right now, and a huge target on their backs. Their decision to intentionally harvest a 2-3 yr old lion, has a negative impact, so much wider and broad reaching than just themselves. Evident by the recent country-wide reduction in lion quota, from 65 to 45! Evident by the petition to up-list the lion on the ESA, in which pictures of young lions just like this one, have recently been used to make their case. Evident by the new mandated 6 yr old law in Tanzania, and the list goes on.

Although I have upset some folks here, my intention was not to do so. My intention was to raise continued awareness to the problem, and frankly the complexity of the problem, one that is much larger than I think 90% of the hunting community realizes. I know this, because along with other hard-working hunting activists, I am right in the middle of it. Unfortunately Muchinga was the example used here. It wasn't for any personal vendetta at all! I had no beef with them prior to this, none at all. Frankly, always heard good reports, and had no reason to think differently. Perhaps some took offense to my way of handling this, calling them out, etc. I will apologize for any un-necessary bantering about, it does sometimes take away from the message. However, I will NOT apologize for my decision to state the facts, and bring to the fore-front, a message that says "some of us will not stand for these poorly chosen actions any more". I will work tirelessly to rid the hunting fraternity of operators/PH's who will continue to make poor decisions as they pertain to lion management/hunting. A decision to shoot a lion like this has wide-ranging effects, effects much like the huge lion quota reduction, the ESA petition, and negative outcomes that effect ALL operators/PH's/hunters. When the poor decision of one, can effect the masses, the masses must must stand for change.

The LCTF will be working with the folks in Tanzania to make the killing of lions under 4 yrs old, illegal and non-exportable! We will also be asking for a fine for the PH, the operator, and an immediate reduction in quota. We are hoping to get a points system put in place, similar to the Niassa program, in Mozambique. Where Dr. Colleen Begg says, that since the inception of the program 7 yrs ago, it has been a very good success. When she started the Niassa Carnivore points system, she says that roughly 75% of the lions shot were under 6 yrs old. Now, with education and concern by ALL the operators, less than 25% of the lions shot each year in the Niassa are under 6. After Tanzania, our next goal is Zambia.

I do hope, if you personally have a concern for the lion, or African Wildlife in general, you will do your best to join us in Tanzania in June. Even as you read through this thread, I mention the importance of this workshop time & time again, and yet some find it nothing more than a joke? You may not like me, you may not always agree with me, but know that at least I'm there trying to fight for your sport, your passion, and your African Wildlife. I may not always make decisions you agree with, but I will do my best to always make them in favor of the wildlife.

My sincere regards,

quote:

Brett.....I think that the work being done to try and keep lions off the list and the populations healthy and sustainable where older surplus males can be hunted is a very worthwhile endeavour.

In reality, unless the various goverments get on board and start mandating what can or can not be legally killed, it will all be for naught.

quote:

As for the question on younger males as targets, these are your "replacement stock" and should not be considered. you rightfully point out that these are more numerous which would also make them the most commonly shot lions by hunters (if allowed) and within a short time you will find that these young males are not around to replace the old pride males who are hunted or naturally killed, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Since this thread should be about education then here's a question. How do you tell the male is not a pride holder when it's dusk and he comes to the bait. Does he stay close to the females so there's a group at the bait? Serious question. Just trying to learn.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
This can be difficult and requires that PH are very familiar with the lion in the block

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
They do in fact shoot their entire quota every year if possible. Wouldn't you? If the quota is wrong then change it.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
465H&H
I think it has been mentioned a few times before - we are taking it for granted that when we mention >6 year old lions, that these are for non-pride holders or pride holders without dependant young in the pride. The former is the absolute preferred offtake target and the latter is an acceptable offtake.

As for the question on younger males as targets, these are your "replacement stock" and should not be considered. you rightfully point out that these are more numerous which would also make them the most commonly shot lions by hunters (if allowed) and within a short time you will find that these young males are not around to replace the old pride males who are hunted or naturally killed, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Since this thread should be about education then here's a question. How do you tell the male is not a pride holder when it's dusk and he comes to the bait. Does he stay close to the females so there's a group at the bait? Serious question. Just trying to learn.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
465H&H
I think it has been mentioned a few times before - we are taking it for granted that when we mention >6 year old lions, that these are for non-pride holders or pride holders without dependant young in the pride. The former is the absolute preferred offtake target and the latter is an acceptable offtake.

As for the question on younger males as targets, these are your "replacement stock" and should not be considered. you rightfully point out that these are more numerous which would also make them the most commonly shot lions by hunters (if allowed) and within a short time you will find that these young males are not around to replace the old pride males who are hunted or naturally killed, etc.

My point was that there is a surplus of young lions and some could be an off take without hurting the population. Whether it is controllable or not is another question.

465H&H

quote:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
They do in fact shoot their entire quota every year if possible. Wouldn't you? If the quota is wrong then change it.

This is a great point that needs to be addressed Steve. No I would not if they weren't all mature lions. The fact is ZAWA and other wildlife agencies are VERY prone to mistakes! For got sake there are concessions with quota for animals they don't even contain! Low quotas for animals in abundance where outfitters have to beg for more quota! High quotas that outfitters receive and say I'm not paying for that because there's no way we should take that many or could take that many and they ask for a quota reduction! The point isn't to take advantage of every situation. The point is to be stewards of wildlife while you run a business.

The fact is Steve as a doctor the more patients I see the more money I make. That's just how it is. Due to the structure/nature of my business if a see twice as many patients my profit well more than doubles. That said I recognize all esle being equal at some point as patient volume increases quality of care will decrease. I regonize that somethings need to be taken into acount along with the bottom line and for me that's patient care. For the DuPlooys that's conservation. The fact is at that point my options are limit my volume and money to be a responsible doctor or change my business model to allow for more patients at the same level of care. This is no different for the DuPlooys. Either they need to limit themselves or change their business model! Those are the only realistic options A and B. C is just keep doing business as usual and business as usuall with either continually reduce their quota until they don't have one or close lion hunting.

For the DuPlooys they either need to realize they are only likely going to take 5 or 6 mature lions a year and sell that many lion hunts at a premium or they need to sell all 9 lion hunts a year and suck it up by telling their clients they are buying a lion hunt not a lion and that they will NOT be allowed to shoot whatever they want.

Brett

PS. At this point there quota has already been reduced to 4 and rightly so if this is what they shoot. If they keep it up by producing lions like this with their quota of 4 non hunters will take the picture of juvinile lions and beat them over the head until their quota is 3.....2.....1.....0

quote:

not just the enlightened or elitist in the crowd.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
465H&H
I think it has been mentioned a few times before - we are taking it for granted that when we mention >6 year old lions, that these are for non-pride holders or pride holders without dependant young in the pride. The former is the absolute preferred offtake target and the latter is an acceptable offtake.

As for the question on younger males as targets, these are your "replacement stock" and should not be considered. you rightfully point out that these are more numerous which would also make them the most commonly shot lions by hunters (if allowed) and within a short time you will find that these young males are not around to replace the old pride males who are hunted or naturally killed, etc.

My point was that there is a surplus of young lions and some could be an off take without hurting the population. Whether it is controllable or not is another question.

465H&H

I think something that people are not taking into consideration is that if you take lions like this you are damaging coalitions. Coalitions allow young lions like this to feed themselves to up there chances of survival to maturity let alone the fact that a coalition ups their chances to aquire a pride. And prides held by coalitions tend to have a longer "riegn of power" than prides held by single males. That equals more pride stability, less infanticide, and higher cub survival rates. All of which in my opinion are good things!

Brett

quote:

But the more successful the coalition of young lions are the more and earlier the chance they will be able to drive off a pride male. No?

quote:

But I beg to differ on the enlightened.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

He always told me that everyone was born with different IQ's but it was there own fault if they were ignorant.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

But the more successful the coalition of young lions are the more and earlier the chance they will be able to drive off a pride male. No?

Which is probably a good thing and the reason it evolved to be that way.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

But the more successful the coalition of young lions are the more and earlier the chance they will be able to drive off a pride male. No?

Which is probably a good thing and the reason it evolved to be that way.

Very true, but and it is a big but, they didn't evolve with the pressure of man hunting them with high powered rifles. The rules have changed for them.

I would like to say that I really am not qualified to decide what is the best management strategy for lion populations but what I can say with a fair degree of certainty is that if I can't do it with my wildlife background and training most of you can't either. I am simply trying to say that setting up a workable management strategy is much more complicated than most if not all of you realize.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

But the more successful the coalition of young lions are the more and earlier the chance they will be able to drive off a pride male. No?

Which is probably a good thing and the reason it evolved to be that way.

Very true, but and it is a big but, they didn't evolve with the pressure of man hunting them with high powered rifles. The rules have changed for them.

I would like to say that I really am not qualified to decide what is the best management strategy for lion populations but what I can say with a fair degree of certainty is that if I can't do it with my wildlife background and training most of you can't either. I am simply trying to say that setting up a workable management strategy is much more complicated than most if not all of you realize.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

But the more successful the coalition of young lions are the more and earlier the chance they will be able to drive off a pride male. No?

Which is probably a good thing and the reason it evolved to be that way.

Very true, but and it is a big but, they didn't evolve with the pressure of man hunting them with high powered rifles. The rules have changed for them.

I would like to say that I really am not qualified to decide what is the best management strategy for lion populations but what I can say with a fair degree of certainty is that if I can't do it with my wildlife background and training most of you can't either. I am simply trying to say that setting up a workable management strategy is much more complicated than most if not all of you realize.

465H&H

It may be complicated but we have to try and this is a start. To give in to negativety is to lose before we start.

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
465H&H,

I understand and appreciate, having been in many of the same battles.

It is my understanding that what you suggest is exactly what Lane,Aaron and others are doing.




SSR

quote:

Very true, but and it is a big but, they didn't evolve with the pressure of man hunting them with high powered rifles. The rules have changed for them.

quote:

quote:

Originally posted by AfricanHunter:
A Foundation idea sounds goods, but with them leading it, no I don't think so.