In reference to the latest Hunt Report from Zambia - Muchinga Adventures!

I know I'm going to catch hell for this, so let me first say. Wrldhunter, I mean absolutely no dis-respect to you or your safari. I'm happy for you and your family, that your safari was everything you hoped it would be.

I on the other hand, want to let it be known that your PH did not only you, but the 2-3 yr old lion that you shot, and the rest of the lion hunting community/conservationists a HUGE dis-service that day! Shooting lions of 2-3 yrs old, should not only be illegal, but deplorable, by ALL! Some of us are working night & day right now, with many of the leading scientists in the world, trying hard to keep the lion from being listed on the ESA. PH's who allow lions like this to be shot, should be fined heavily, and totally banned from hunting, ever again. As they are obviously not concerned with ethical management or conservation practices, and obviously have little concern for the future of the lion, or continued legal lion hunting. Feel free to forward this to Abie as well, his choice to shoot this lion, is dis-graceful!

I want nothing more, and will do my best, to see lion hunting practices like this eliminated, banned, deemed illegal, or all of the above.

My apologies to the hunters, as this IS NOT meant or directed at them in anyway.

Not everyone gets a free pass to old lions. And sometimes mistakes are made and young lions/leopards/etc get whacked.

I don't know the circumstances of this hunt or what the lion might be but only if the PH knew it was a youngster and indeed told the client to whack it do you have any room for judgmental opinions.

That should stir you up!

And why is it okay to whack old lions?

Get out the stir pot.

Aaron is 100% correct in his post on this subject.

And...if we as hunters do NOT take this bull by the horns...we WILL loose this game animal...which in-turn will be BAD for the lion as well!!!

Aaron...good on you man!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Not everyone gets a free pass to old lions. And sometimes mistakes are made and young lions/leopards.etc get whacked.

I don't know the circumstances of this hunt or the lion might be but only if the PH knew it was a youngster and indeed told the client to whack it do you have any room for judgmental opinions.That should stir you up!

Damn right he does!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Not everyone gets a free pass to old lions. And sometimes mistakes are made and young lions/leopards.etc get whacked.

I have no dog in this fight. But that lion looks mighty young, and I am not an expert.

Will, this kill was not a mistake. Go back and read the post. The hunter wanted to shoot this one rather than go home empty handed.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
...but only if the PH knew it was a youngster

You cannot possible be advocating Thought Police as your post implies. There is absolutely no room for that in the hunting endgame. The animal is either dead or it is not. Where is the room in this process for what a PH was thinking? It is the result that counts, a dead lion.

Aaron, thanks for having the cojones to post what will likely not win you any popularity contests.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
And why is it okay to whack old lions?

Bill - If you really need me to explain it, perhaps you should start learning about the lion, instead of writing about it, like you already know!!!!!

Making a mistake on that lion, is not a mistake! Either your PH is an idiot, he doesn't care, or both. You pick?

I for one, won't stand by and watch this crap go on anymore. You can be a smart-ass about it, or you can do something about it, again, your choice?

WELL, Aaron if you didn't make it your life objective, which it seems to be from reading other posts by you, to kill every mature lion you can find, then there might be more mature lions left and someone might not feel the need to kill a younger one or "go home empty handed." Maybe one in a LIFETIME is enough. How does that idea fit in your lion killing life. (And, yes I've shot lions going back to '72 and the last one in 2001.) Stir that as you call the guy out. I'm sure you'll put me down as a smartass, so be it.
Thanks for your time and spend on a one in a lifetime program.

Aaron,

Like I said I am being totally dogmatic. But I have seen 25 lb. leopards shot by mistake.

It is like anything else. If you want to see old, mature __________, quit shooting them. This guy spent a bundle on that hunt and when it comes to going home empty handed on lion, hmmmm, maybe he is justified. Maybe not.

In Tanzania the rumors I hear that they keep dividing up hunting blocks but have a quota for each divided block the same as the original, larger block. Money seems to be the perpetual motivator.

I could never figure out why there is CITES on leopards and not on lions, when there is typically a hell of a lot more leopards around then lions.

To tell you the truth.... well, I'll tell you sometime.

Take care.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

Aaron Neilson. I salute you for having the , you know, to post this. I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Really, of all the animals shot with milk running out of their mouths (see Cape Buffalo and others) you pick only the lion to have a hissy fit about? For every young lion posted there are 200 baby buffalo. Unless you are consistent, you are just bitching about your favorite animal. That will not persuade non-lion hunters.

Until you cull the humans your ox will be continually gored in Ol' Africa. Get used to it.

quote:

Originally posted by SG Olds:
Really, of all the animals shot with milk running out of their mouths (see Cape Buffalo and others) you pick only the lion to have a hissy fit about? For every young lion posted there are 200 baby buffalo. Unless you are consistent, you are just bitching about your favorite animal. That will not persuade non-lion hunters.

Until you cull the humans your ox will be continually gored in Ol' Africa. Get used to it.

Are wild buffalo under the same population pressure as lions???

quote:

Like I said I am being totally dogmatic. But I have seen 25 lb. leopards shot by mistake.

It is like anything else. If you want to see old, mature __________, quit shooting them. This guy spent a bundle on that hunt and when it comes to going home empty handed on lion, hmmmm, maybe he is justified. Maybe not.

Bill,
Those gotta be the stupidest words I have ever seen written on a computer screen.

Shooting a 25 lb leopard is about as much a "mistake" shooting the lion in that report.

If you think it is OK for a PH to make a mistake like that...you must have hunted with some sorry excuses for PHes.

quote:

Like I said I am being totally dogmatic. But I have seen 25 lb. leopards shot by mistake.

More than 1 ? You can tell Will is a Writer

quote:

Originally posted by AfricanHunter:
WELL, Aaron if you didn't make it your life objective, which it seems to be from reading other posts by you, to kill every mature lion you can find, then there might be more mature lions left and someone might not feel the need to kill a younger one or "go home empty handed." Maybe one in a LIFETIME is enough. How does that idea fit in your lion killing life. (And, yes I've shot lions going back to '72 and the last one in 2001.) Stir that as you call the guy out. I'm sure you'll put me down as a smartass, so be it.
Thanks for your time and spend on a one in a lifetime program.

WHAT...in the H377...does that have to do with anything. I can tell you guys one thing...as I have spent a good bit of time working with him...Aaron has contributed a whole helluva lot more to lion conservation than 99.99999999999% of the people who post on AR. And he has been working day and night for the last couple of months on it. Instead of criticism...you should be buying him a beer!!!

quote:

Originally posted by SG Olds:
Really, of all the animals shot with milk running out of their mouths (see Cape Buffalo and others) you pick only the lion to have a hissy fit about? For every young lion posted there are 200 baby buffalo. Unless you are consistent, you are just bitching about your favorite animal. That will not persuade non-lion hunters.

Until you cull the humans your ox will be continually gored in Ol' Africa. Get used to it.

Nope...he's stomping out the hottest fire happening in the hunting world right now.

quote:

Originally posted by AfricanHunter:
WELL, Aaron if you didn't make it your life objective, which it seems to be from reading other posts by you, to kill every mature lion you can find, then there might be more mature lions left and someone might not feel the need to kill a younger one or "go home empty handed." Maybe one in a LIFETIME is enough. How does that idea fit in your lion killing life. (And, yes I've shot lions going back to '72 and the last one in 2001.) Stir that as you call the guy out. I'm sure you'll put me down as a smartass, so be it.
Thanks for your time and spend on a one in a lifetime program.

AfricanHunter - Seriously??? Let's see, in 16 yrs of hunting Africa, I've shot 11 lions, so less than 1 per year. I've never hunted with Muchinga in this area, never would after this, and you think the reason they needed to shoot a cub, was me?? Ya, that makes perfect sense!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Aaron,
This guy spent a bundle on that hunt and when it comes to going home empty handed on lion, hmmmm, maybe he is justified. Maybe not.

Bill, that attitude is too often the same taken by others! Its really a shame, to think success is more important than proper lion management. Lions/lion hunting is under MORE pressure than any species in Africa at the moment.

Aaron, you and I have been on the different ends of the lion conservation argument for some time now, but I have to tell you that my respect for you has shot up upon reading your post. You will (no pun intended) take a lot of flack for this, I am sure, but in the end, to safeguard the future of the lion AND lion hunting, your stand is necessary.
Good luck, Peter.

I would also encourage concerned sportsman, those who recognize the current threat to lion hunting, and the lion. To please contact Muchinga Adventures, and ask for an explanation? Ask why the PH allowed such a lion to be shot on the 5th-6th day of the hunt, or why he allowed it to be shot period??

If this sort of lion hunting practice is OK with Muchinga Adventures, perhaps its time for a change in occupation? I would also encourage those booked with Muchinga Adventures, on any up-coming lion hunts, to ask for a detailed explanation as it pertains to what kind of lion they will be encouraged/allowed to shoot! Allowing a client to shoot this particular lion, should be illegal.

Zambia recently received a reduction in lion quota from 65 to 45. At SCI 2011, I sat 5 feet away from the owner of Muchinga and listened to him bitch about it for 20 minutes with a Zambian PH, who is a great friend of mine. Really??? You shoot 3 yr old lions, and you're surprised they reduce the quota??? Ya, go figure. The whole thing is a disgrace. Disgrace to the country of Zambia, to the fellow PH's who are trying to do it right. A disgrace to all the work Dr. White has done to gather data/educate those in Zambia as to proper lion hunting management, etc. The whole thing is just a damned disgrace, and anyone involved, should be totally ashamed, period!!!!

quote:

Like I said I am being totally dogmatic. But I have seen 25 lb. leopards shot by mistake.

What does that matter? Leopards are judged by SKULL MEASUREMENT!!! What size were their skulls?

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

I on the other hand, want to let it be known that your PH did not only you, but the 2-3 yr old lion that you shot, and the rest of the lion hunting community/conservationists a HUGE dis-service that day! Shooting lions of 2-3 yrs old, should not only be illegal, but deplorable, by ALL! Some of us are working night & day right now, with many of the leading scientists in the world, trying hard to keep the lion from being listed on the ESA. PH's who allow lions like this to be shot, should be fined heavily, and totally banned from hunting, ever again. As they are obviously not concerned with ethical management or conservation practices, and obviously have little concern for the future of the lion, or continued legal lion hunting. Feel free to forward this to Abie as well, his choice to shoot this lion, is dis-graceful!

I want nothing more, and will do my best, to see lion hunting practices like this eliminated, banned, deemed illegal, or all of the above.

I do have more to add, but at the moment I will ask: do you believe this lion is younger/less mature than the lion Boddington shot with a 416 Rigby in his book Where Lions Roar?

Heres the deal guys & gals. Lion hunting and the lion itself is in jeopardy right now. One of the the ways that stats are generated by the anti's is buy counting the number of 3 and less lions shown on the net by hunting companies. For the hunter that took this lion...no flack inteded...but...the PH and Company should be ashamed...as any PH worth his salt would know that was a cub and would NOT dream of shooting it.

I am sure everone is aware of the petition before the U.S. Government to up-list the lion to endangered as well some pressure to make it criminal for a U.S. citizen to even hunt a lion if that petition is successful.

Aaron has taken the initiative behind the scenes the last few months to rally the scinetific world with the hunting world so we could all put forth our best foot to save the lion, its habitat, and lion hunting (which is essential to the salvation of the lion). And it has been these occurences (hunting reports like this one) that have been thrown in our faces time-and-again. So...it is for these reasons...that this hunting report was gasoline on the fire for those of us working for the betterment of the lion hunting industry right now and why we are a bit sensitive.

This thread and the plight of the lion are beginning to make me revisit my "say nothing" policy, at least on a limited basis.

See here.

But for the record, I am saying nothing about this lion.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
This thread and the plight of the lion are beginning to make me revisit my "say nothing" policy, at least on a limited basis.

See here.

But for the record, I am saying nothing about this lion.

My father used to tell me: "If your not part of the solution...you are probably part of the problem!!!"

I don't have a dog of any kind in this fight, but there is a possibility, that in spite of, or because of, all the hard work and good intentions of those that are working so hard to keep lions from ending up on the Endangered Species list, some folks may just want to try and get as many animals killed as is possible before they are placed off limits.

I hope that I am wrong with that assumption, but stranger things have happened in this world.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
the PH and Company should be ashamed...as any PH worth his salt would know that was a cub and would NOT dream of shooting it.

I guess the term "cub" was hyperbole on your part? But I feel that all this overstatement is clouding the issue.

As most cubs won't make it to adulthood I don't believe that killing a cub out of a pride is going to make a bit of difference in the lion population.

If you are talking about the need to stop killing young, pride holding, males or young bachelor males that have not had a chance to take a pride of their own, I agree.

But calling any non elderly lion a "cub" is not doing anything to advance your platform.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
I don't have a dog of any kind in this fight, but there is a possibility, that in spite of, or because of, all the hard work and good intentions of those that are working so hard to keep lions from ending up on the Endangered Species list, some folks may just want to try and get as many animals killed as is possible before they are placed off limits.

I hope that I am wrong with that assumption, but stranger things have happened in this world.

I would have to agree with you

If I were in Vegas and fixin to lay down the money...I would take 2 years of age and give you odds. But...for sure...2 - 3!!! A 2 year old is just a big ole cub barely kicked off the tit...many still following their mothers. Most females don't breed until 2 years after having a successful litter...suggesting...they watch out for them up to 2 years of age.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by AfricanHunter:
WELL, Aaron if you didn't make it your life objective, which it seems to be from reading other posts by you, to kill every mature lion you can find, then there might be more mature lions left and someone might not feel the need to kill a younger one or "go home empty handed." Maybe one in a LIFETIME is enough. How does that idea fit in your lion killing life. (And, yes I've shot lions going back to '72 and the last one in 2001.) Stir that as you call the guy out. I'm sure you'll put me down as a smartass, so be it.
Thanks for your time and spend on a one in a lifetime program.

AfricanHunter - Seriously??? Let's see, in 16 yrs of hunting Africa, I've shot 11 lions, so less than 1 per year. I've never hunted with Muchinga in this area, never would after this, and you think the reason they needed to shoot a cub, was me?? Ya, that makes perfect sense!

You missed the idea of tasking the moral high ground and only take one in a lifetime. Naturally, that idea doesn't fit with your plans. After all 11 lions in 16 years is a rather healthy take off. Lions are hurting, but if everyone did the same they would really be in a "well."

There are no lion hunts in my future, wish there were, but some two to three weeks ago on a morning talk show, man and woman who just returned from Africa were quoting population numbers of lions and how over the past few decades the population had dropped a great deal.
They are promoting the endangered species idea and stated it should be illegal for hunting of any form take place for lions. These two have a film which is to be released soon depicting the plight of the lion and made reference to various U.S. politicians who would support their efforts. They apparently have resouces and "the ear" of policy makers/politicians and if the hunting of lions is to remain, there definitely needs to be emphasis from the hunting community to thwart the effort to ban lion hunting.
Suggestion only, but we all watch the various hunt programs on TV, but I don't recall an appearance of those supporting the hunting of lions or any other game for that matter on a network program?? You have to be a better advocate than your competitor if you are to succeed. The various hunting videos/movies is similar to the old addage, "preaching to the choir..." Some may feel that the less said about it the better, but it is not going to go silently into the night. Again, just a suggestion.

quote:

Originally posted by AfricanHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
I don't have a dog of any kind in this fight, but there is a possibility, that in spite of, or because of, all the hard work and good intentions of those that are working so hard to keep lions from ending up on the Endangered Species list, some folks may just want to try and get as many animals killed as is possible before they are placed off limits.

I hope that I am wrong with that assumption, but stranger things have happened in this world.

I would have to agree with you

If you fellows are speaking of Aaron...y'all are way off track.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
the PH and Company should be ashamed...as any PH worth his salt would know that was a cub and would NOT dream of shooting it.

I guess the term "cub" was hyperbole on your part? But I feel that all this overstatement is clouding the issue.

As most cubs won't make it to adulthood I don't believe that killing a cub out of a pride is going to make a bit of difference in the lion population.

If you are talking about the need to stop killing young, pride holding, males or young bachelor males that have not had a chance to take a pride of their own, I agree.

But calling any non elderly lion a "cub" is not doing anything to advance your platform.

Jason - To some degree your point is taken, but fact is as Lane mentiones, a 2-3 yr old lion is not far removed from being a CUB.

This is a young, immature male, shot long before his time. A young lion shot early in the hunt, simply because he's there and easy. With little concern by any involved for lion conservation practices, or any other concerns for that matter.

The PH should be banned from hunting Zambia again, the company should be fined, and anyone with any concern for lion conservation, should look elsewhere when considering their next Zambian Lion Hunt! Trust me, we are working to make that a reality all across South/east Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by MFD:
There are no lion hunts in my future, wish there were, but some two to three weeks ago on a morning talk show, man and woman who just returned from Africa were quoting population numbers of lions and how over the past few decades the population had dropped a great deal.
They are promoting the endangered species idea and stated it should be illegal for hunting of any form take place for lions. These two have a film which is to be released soon depicting the plight of the lion and made reference to various U.S. politicians who would support their efforts. They apparently have resouces and "the ear" of policy makers/politicians and if the hunting of lions is to remain, there definitely needs to be emphasis from the hunting community to thwart the effort to ban lion hunting.
Suggestion only, but we all watch the various hunt programs on TV, but I don't recall an appearance of those supporting the hunting of lions or any other game for that matter on a network program?? You have to be a better advocate than your competitor if you are to succeed. The various hunting videos/movies is similar to the old addage, "preaching to the choir..." Some may feel that the less said about it the better, but it is not going to go silently into the night. Again, just a suggestion.

Good post!

quote:

Originally posted by AfricanHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by AfricanHunter:
WELL, Aaron if you didn't make it your life objective, which it seems to be from reading other posts by you, to kill every mature lion you can find, then there might be more mature lions left and someone might not feel the need to kill a younger one or "go home empty handed." Maybe one in a LIFETIME is enough. How does that idea fit in your lion killing life. (And, yes I've shot lions going back to '72 and the last one in 2001.) Stir that as you call the guy out. I'm sure you'll put me down as a smartass, so be it.
Thanks for your time and spend on a one in a lifetime program.

AfricanHunter - Seriously??? Let's see, in 16 yrs of hunting Africa, I've shot 11 lions, so less than 1 per year. I've never hunted with Muchinga in this area, never would after this, and you think the reason they needed to shoot a cub, was me?? Ya, that makes perfect sense!

You missed the idea of tasking the moral high ground and only take one in a lifetime. Naturally, that idea doesn't fit with your plans. After all 11 lions in 16 years is a rather healthy take off. Lions are hurting, but if everyone did the same they would really be in a "well."

All I can say is, THANK GOD the future of the lion/lion hunting isn't in your hands! Arguing with you, will be like shooting the lion in question, totally pointless.

How about talking about what did happen, NOT WHAT DIDN"T HAPPEN. If this happened, if that happened, if your aunt had balls, should would be your uncle!!

quote:

If you fellows are speaking of Aaron...y'all are way off track.

Don't get your ass up in the air at me this time Doc., you seem to enjoy that.

I fully support the work Aaron is doing and I wish him success in his endeavor.

With that said, It Does Not Mean That There Are NOT People In The Business, That Are Not More Interested In Killing A Lion, Any Lion Before They Are Placed Off Off Limits.

Just because someone Does Not Say things the way you want them to, means they are your enemy!

I would not want to shoot a lion, mountain lion yes, African no, for any damn reason even if I ever did get to go to Africa, but, I don't have any problem with other folks shooting lions, as long as it is done in a manner that will help keep the population healthy and hunting for older males that are nearing or past their productive prime, is probably the only way that will work.

If nothing else, it get the troops excited!

AfricanHunter,
Both Aaron and I have disclosed who we are and what we are doing.

Who the heck are you??? Bitch bitch bitch and hide your identity.