One thing that I think gets lost on most hunters is that lions cannot be managed like deer with simple quotas. They have complex social relationships and we have to take that into account when figuring out how to hunt them sustainably. If you goal is to get a lion no matter what then this probably doesn't matter to you. But if you want to hunt in a way the helps lion conservation then you have to start making sometimes really hard decisions in the field. Take a camera for the young ones or get yours soon because lion hunting will be closed before most of us retire.

Just one question, was the lion that was killed a LEGAL animal?

If it was, then WHO is at fault for it being shot?

The Hunter? The PH? Or the Goverment that made the regulations making it a legal animal?

This is the crux of the whole arguement.

If the goverment of the country where the lion was shot says that it was/is a legal lion, there is not one thing anyone can do to change that.

Bad mouthing other hunters, trying to use peer pressure, belittleing other hunters over their choice of what to shoot, does not do one thing but focus attention to the fact that hunters can not get along, because some people want to control what othewr people do.

The Only People That Can Do That Are The Goverments That Have Control Over The Game Laws Of Their Country.

People need to make sure that they are not letting their own PERSONAL wants and desires interfere with what is best for the long term management of the species.

Private concerns about a species go out the window if the goverments that regulate the hunting of that species are more concerned about monetary gains than the long term health of the species.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by wrldhunter:
WOW....
I will not post any more on this subject but I felt I needed to clear the air.
The decision to shoot the lion in question was mine and mine alone. I take full responsibility, Abie nor Johnny pulled the trigger, I did. I knew what I was shooting before I pulled the trigger. Where some are fortunate enough to hunt lions 15 times in their life, I am not. If this is the only lion I ever hunt and kill I am still as excited as the day I shot it and feel fortunate to have done so. There were a lot of assumptions made and every man is entitled to his opinion. I do not care about your opinions nor do I need your blessing.

Well, that's taking the high road. I don't think I could be so generous!

That's the high road? You have to be kidding. This is the same guy that wrote

" This was the first time we had seen both lions in full daylight. The blueish grey lion was huge but also completely maneless, looked to be a older lion. The other lion was a little smaller body size but had a better mane than we had first thought. As we discussed whether or not to shoot the lion layed down in the grass, just his head was visible. I decided I was going to shoot this lion because I would rather kill a respectible lion than hunt for a monster and go home empty handed."

He gets what he deserves for that attitude. What ever happened to taking the experience home without regard to whether you got your "limit". He consciously chose to kill the younger baby lion for the sake of the mane. And one thing is without a doubt, the PH should lose his license. Did anyone notice this was a "Blair Worldwide" brokered hunt. Seems I remember another thread about this
outfit. Y'all are going soft here. I have seen grey turned to black and white here so much since I joined it blows me away to see when something is without a doubt black it gets called white.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by Proteus:
So.....the booking agent/guide who has killed 11 lions has a problem with the one lion killed by a guy who can afford to hunt them maybe once in his lifetime. Shooting young lions prolly does look bad to the non-hunters but I wonder how they view booking agents who see fit to kill 11 in 16 years.

Why does it matter if the booking agent has killed 11 mature lions on legal quota? Other people on this thread have taken the same position as you and for the life of me I cannot see any point whatsoever in this argument. This is about shooting immature lion(s) and the negative effect it IS going to have on us as African hunters.

Was wrldhunter's lion not legally killed?

Are you not bright enough to see how someone killing 11 lions in nearly as many years might not also look bad to anti hunters and might also have a negative effect on us African hunters? I'm all for lion hunting but I can't see how wrldhunter killing an immature lion is any more destructive to the future of lion hunting than is Aaron's killing every simba he comes across and then posting it all over the web. You guys are priceless.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
You aren't getting it. Based on the best science you can shoot all the 6 + year old lions out that you can find and it won't negatively impact the population of wild lions.

You shoot younger and you very quickly and dramatically impact the population of wild lions. Especially if you hit a pride male.

So it doesn't matter if you shoot 50 old lions. Whereas it does matter if you shoot 1 pride male.

Fairly accurate assessment!

Folks, for the 88th time. This isn't about me, wrldhunter or whether he can only afford to shoot one lion, and I can hunt em 15 more times. Its about the necessity to learn and understand the problems facing the lion. Its about learning the reasons why we must focus on practicing better lion hunting ethics. Its about bringing to light, some of the problems we have amongst our own. Problems that are only amplified, when PH's lack the responsibility to do the right thing.

I hear about ALL the experience this PH has, the things he's done, etc, etc, etc. All the more reason I say, He Knew Better, and simply failed to care, period! Reading the original Hunt Report, it states pretty clearly that they had plenty of time/opportunity to observe the cats. Had it been a quick/snap decision in low-light conditions, or a million other ways an HONEST mistake could have been made, then that's a totally different story. Fact is, none of that happened. A decision was made, with ample time to judge the trophy, and a complete lack of concern for the plight of the lion. Shameful, and I'll say it again, SHAMEFUL!!!!

So.....Aaron, I see you on the TV, in RSA with some pal or client or something. SHOOTING OFF THE CRUISER.......So taking your model YOU SIR ARE A DISGRACEFUL ROAD HUNTER??? I think not but your straw man argument is the same.

I think emotions run high and thats good, it means passion but gentlemen.....please... the name calling is uncalled for.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
I'll be the first to admit I'm not an expert, but I have spent quite a bit of time reading, learning, and speaking with people who are experts. I hardly think that gives me an athoritative oppinion, but I do have some idea. Even with my limitted ability to age lions there is absolutely no question on this one. I was not going to start this thread....although it took considerable restraint....because it would certainly hurt the hunter's feeling. I'm sure that has happened now and for that I am sorry. That said this is Accurate Reloading one of the greatest informational pieces for those going on safari that there is! If we don't bring it up here to educate future lion hunters where do we. I would agree that adressing this directly with the Du Ploys and Abie would have been more tactful, but it wouldn't have made hunters aware or put pressure on Muchinga Safaris to never have a repeat performance. In hind sight I have to agree with Judge that myself icluded should have used less inflamitory words to make our points. That's a fact and he is a gentleman. I hope with age I will gain his wisdom and restraint.

Brett

Brett,

I know and have hunted with the DuPlooys and they are good people who run a first rate operation, you owe both Abie and Johnny an apology, you know not of what you speak and your previous posts regarding them were completely out of line. Johnny and Abie are both fine PHs and your characterizations of them as half assed SOBs or whatever it was you posted were uncalled for. Muchinga shoots the quota they are allotted and if you have a problem with that take it up with Zambian authorities.


Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
You aren't getting it. Based on the best science you can shoot all the 6 + year old lions out that you can find and it won't negatively impact the population of wild lions.

You shoot younger and you very quickly and dramatically impact the population of wild lions. Especially if you hit a pride male.

So it doesn't matter if you shoot 50 old lions. Whereas it does matter if you shoot 1 pride male.

Fairly accurate assessment!

Folks, for the 88th time. This isn't about me, wrldhunter or whether he can only afford to shoot one lion, and I can hunt em 15 more times. Its about the necessity to learn and understand the problems facing the lion. Its about learning the reasons why we must focus on practicing better lion hunting ethics. Its about bringing to light, some of the problems we have amongst our own. Problems that are only amplified, when PH's lack the responsibility to do the right thing.

I hear about ALL the experience this PH has, the things he's done, etc, etc, etc. All the more reason I say, He Knew Better, and simply failed to care, period! Reading the original Hunt Report, it states pretty clearly that they had plenty of time/opportunity to observe the cats. Had it been a quick/snap decision in low-light conditions, or a million other ways an HONEST mistake could have been made, then that's a totally different story. Fact is, none of that happened. A decision was made, with ample time to judge the trophy, and a complete lack of concern for the plight of the lion. Shameful, and I'll say it again, SHAMEFUL!!!!

So.....Aaron, I see you on the TV, in RSA with some pal or client or something. SHOOTING OFF THE CRUISER.......So taking your model YOU SIR ARE A DISGRACEFUL ROAD HUNTER??? I think not but your straw man argument is the same.

I think emotions run high and thats good, it means passion but gentlemen.....please... the name calling is uncalled for.

Aaron warrants a pass on everything, haven't you figured that out yet?

Hell, how many times now has he renamed his company?

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
I'll be the first to admit I'm not an expert, but I have spent quite a bit of time reading, learning, and speaking with people who are experts. I hardly think that gives me an athoritative oppinion, but I do have some idea. Even with my limitted ability to age lions there is absolutely no question on this one. I was not going to start this thread....although it took considerable restraint....because it would certainly hurt the hunter's feeling. I'm sure that has happened now and for that I am sorry. That said this is Accurate Reloading one of the greatest informational pieces for those going on safari that there is! If we don't bring it up here to educate future lion hunters where do we. I would agree that adressing this directly with the Du Ploys and Abie would have been more tactful, but it wouldn't have made hunters aware or put pressure on Muchinga Safaris to never have a repeat performance. In hind sight I have to agree with Judge that myself icluded should have used less inflamitory words to make our points. That's a fact and he is a gentleman. I hope with age I will gain his wisdom and restraint.

Brett

Brett,

I know and have hunted with the DuPlooys and they are good people who run a first rate operation, you owe both Abie and Johnny an apology, you know not of what you speak and your previous posts regarding them were completely out of line. Johnny and Abie are both fine PHs and your characterizations of them as half assed SOBs or whatever it was you posted were uncalled for. Muchinga shoots the quota they are allotted and if you have a problem with that take it up with Zambian authorities.

Andy

Lucky for the lion, the overly concerned and obviously wildlife conscious DuPlooy's, have had their lion quota cut from "9" to 4. Since better judgement, and conservation efforts on behalf of the lion were not obviously adhered to by some. Others did take it up with the game dept/ZAWA.

Fact is, quotas are NOT and SHOULD NOT ever be the main concern. Craig Packer, the world's widely recognized lion "expert", will be the first to agree. As do many others in the scientific community. However, they do ALL agree on one thing. For lion hunting, and the natural balance of the lion to continue, hunters/PH's MUST adhere to the off-take of only obviously mature, 6 yr old plus lions! If the operators across consistently shot nothing but 6 yr old + lions, they could shoot as many lions as they darn well pleased, with little to NO negative effect on the entire pride dynamics. If more operators were on board with the science and the program, lion quotas would not even be necessary at ALL, and every single leading scientist will agree. Fact is, just as in this case, greed/opportunity out-weighed logic, and outside sources are forced to step in and take control of the situation. Thus the lion quota across Zambia was cut by 20, over-night, and without ANY explanation. Maybe one too many lion photographs, of lions like the one in question, floating around? Just ask Dr. Easter where he and I have seen that sort of propaganda lately, used solely against the hunting fraternity.

AGAIN, I WOULD HOPE TO SEE ALL OF YOU IN TANZANIA IN JUNE. THEN ONCE EDUCATED ON ALL THE IMPORTANT FACTS AS THEY PERTAIN TO LION/LION HUNTING, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO MAKE A MORE INFORMED POST AS IT PERTAINS TO THE SUBJECT.

it makes no difference if the 11 lions died by the same hand or if 11 different hunters killed them.
11 lions were going to die reguardless...
it may matter to the anti's, but there is NO reasoning with them anyway.
the survival of lion hunting hangs in the balance and the most passionate voice i'm hearing is from the fella who is willing to put his money and time into the hunting of and conserving of THE AFRICAN LION.
what have the rest of you back bitters done to ensure the conservation of lion hunting.....

quote:

Was wrldhunter's lion not legally killed?

There seems to be some problem in getting folks to answer that particular question.

This whole thread is getting to be like ones on sites here in Texas about shooting anything less than a trophy whitetail.

Definition of what a trophy is to be determined by an unknown group of elitists.

I really could care less how many lions a person wants to kill in their life time or what size they are, but arguements like this have me to the point where I would just as soon see all countries in Africa, shut down all lion hunting.

From what I gather on this diatribe, is that the lion was legally killed. Yes, it was a young lion, but it was a LEGAL lion.

The points I do not understand, deal with the ethical and/or personal feelings regarding the kill.

The hunter has stated that he made the choice to pull the trigger.

The goverment of the country where the cat was killed determined that it was a legal kill.

The outfitter/safari company/PH merely went along with the clients wishes.

Some othjer folks have dcecided to launch a witch hunt directed at the hunter and the safari company/PH, because a lion was legally killed, that did not measure up to their standards.

One of these folks has admitted to killing several lions during his career, but because they were ones that he felt were eligible to be killed, that is okay, yet a guy on a one time hunt, shooting a young although LEGAL lion was totally against some unwritten code of honor among lion hunters.

I applaud the work some of these gentlemen are doing in regards to keeping lions a huntable species in parts of Africa.

Were it not for similar efforts, I have been told that leopards would probably extinct or close to it.

My problem is that the whole thing is beginning to sound like the Quality Deer Management arguement here in the U.S..

The trophy hunters do not want anybody that does not have the same attitude as they do, to be allowed to shoot anything.

The difference is, here in Texas and other states, legislation was enacted to go along with the trophy hunter's idea of what was or was not a legally shootable animal, and the QDM folks find fault with that because it does not go far enough.

IMO, until or unless these folks that are trying to prove that only certain lions should be killed in the best interest of the over all health of the species, can get the variuos goverments that allow lion hunting to make regulations and enforce them as to what is and is not a legal lion, all we are going to see is a lot of name calling and bad mouthing because people paying the $$$$ it takes to hunt lions, are going to continue killing LEGAL lions even if they are nursing cubs.

Maybe the bigger question here, is does anyone, including natives, need to be killing wild lions until their population stabilizes?

Farm raised lions maybe the answer. Sure they don't carryu the same prowess as a Legally killed wild lion, but then they don't impact the numbers of wild lions.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
I'll be the first to admit I'm not an expert, but I have spent quite a bit of time reading, learning, and speaking with people who are experts. I hardly think that gives me an athoritative oppinion, but I do have some idea. Even with my limitted ability to age lions there is absolutely no question on this one. I was not going to start this thread....although it took considerable restraint....because it would certainly hurt the hunter's feeling. I'm sure that has happened now and for that I am sorry. That said this is Accurate Reloading one of the greatest informational pieces for those going on safari that there is! If we don't bring it up here to educate future lion hunters where do we. I would agree that adressing this directly with the Du Ploys and Abie would have been more tactful, but it wouldn't have made hunters aware or put pressure on Muchinga Safaris to never have a repeat performance. In hind sight I have to agree with Judge that myself icluded should have used less inflamitory words to make our points. That's a fact and he is a gentleman. I hope with age I will gain his wisdom and restraint.

Brett

Brett,

I know and have hunted with the DuPlooys and they are good people who run a first rate operation, you owe both Abie and Johnny an apology, you know not of what you speak and your previous posts regarding them were completely out of line. Johnny and Abie are both fine PHs and your characterizations of them as half assed SOBs or whatever it was you posted were uncalled for. Muchinga shoots the quota they are allotted and if you have a problem with that take it up with Zambian authorities.

Andy

Lucky for the lion, the overly concerned and obviously wildlife conscious DuPlooy's, have had their lion quota cut from "9" to 4. Since better judgement, and conservation efforts on behalf of the lion were not obviously adhered to by some. Others did take it up with the game dept/ZAWA.

Fact is, quotas are NOT and SHOULD NOT ever be the main concern. Craig Packer, the world's widely recognized lion "expert", will be the first to agree. As do many others in the scientific community. However, they do ALL agree on one thing. For lion hunting, and the natural balance of the lion to continue, hunters/PH's MUST adhere to the off-take of only obviously mature, 6 yr old plus lions! If the operators across consistently shot nothing but 6 yr old + lions, they could shoot as many lions as they darn well pleased, with little to NO negative effect on the entire pride dynamics. If more operators were on board with the science and the program, lion quotas would not even be necessary at ALL, and every single leading scientist will agree. Fact is, just as in this case, greed/opportunity out-weighed logic, and outside sources are forced to step in and take control of the situation. Thus the lion quota across Zambia was cut by 20, over-night, and without ANY explanation. Maybe one too many lion photographs, of lions like the one in question, floating around? Just ask Dr. Easter where he and I have seen that sort of propaganda lately, used solely against the hunting fraternity.

AGAIN, I WOULD HOPE TO SEE ALL OF YOU IN TANZANIA IN JUNE. THEN ONCE EDUCATED ON ALL THE IMPORTANT FACTS AS THEY PERTAIN TO LION/LION HUNTING, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO MAKE A MORE INFORMED POST AS IT PERTAINS TO THE SUBJECT.

You obviously have a hard-on for the DuPlooys, Aaron. What exactly is your problem with them as this thread from the beginning was intended to diminish them and their reputation?

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
You aren't getting it. Based on the best science you can shoot all the 6 + year old lions out that you can find and it won't negatively impact the population of wild lions.

You shoot younger and you very quickly and dramatically impact the population of wild lions. Especially if you hit a pride male.

So it doesn't matter if you shoot 50 old lions. Whereas it does matter if you shoot 1 pride male.

Fairly accurate assessment!

Folks, for the 88th time. This isn't about me, wrldhunter or whether he can only afford to shoot one lion, and I can hunt em 15 more times. Its about the necessity to learn and understand the problems facing the lion. Its about learning the reasons why we must focus on practicing better lion hunting ethics. Its about bringing to light, some of the problems we have amongst our own. Problems that are only amplified, when PH's lack the responsibility to do the right thing.

I hear about ALL the experience this PH has, the things he's done, etc, etc, etc. All the more reason I say, He Knew Better, and simply failed to care, period! Reading the original Hunt Report, it states pretty clearly that they had plenty of time/opportunity to observe the cats. Had it been a quick/snap decision in low-light conditions, or a million other ways an HONEST mistake could have been made, then that's a totally different story. Fact is, none of that happened. A decision was made, with ample time to judge the trophy, and a complete lack of concern for the plight of the lion. Shameful, and I'll say it again, SHAMEFUL!!!!

So.....Aaron, I see you on the TV, in RSA with some pal or client or something. SHOOTING OFF THE CRUISER.......So taking your model YOU SIR ARE A DISGRACEFUL ROAD HUNTER??? I think not but your straw man argument is the same.

I think emotions run high and thats good, it means passion but gentlemen.....please... the name calling is uncalled for.

Aaron warrants a pass on everything, haven't you figured that out yet?

Hell, how many times now has he renamed his company?

Rat - Warrants a pass? I'm asking for recognition of the needed regulations/morals as they pertain to properly managed lion hunting. When did this become about me asking for a pass?

FYI, I have NEVER changed the name of my company, never!! I have had the good fortune to sell my previous outfitting companies on two different occasions, along with the name sake as one might imagine!!

Crazy,

It has been stated that the lion was legal.

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
I'll be the first to admit I'm not an expert, but I have spent quite a bit of time reading, learning, and speaking with people who are experts. I hardly think that gives me an athoritative oppinion, but I do have some idea. Even with my limitted ability to age lions there is absolutely no question on this one. I was not going to start this thread....although it took considerable restraint....because it would certainly hurt the hunter's feeling. I'm sure that has happened now and for that I am sorry. That said this is Accurate Reloading one of the greatest informational pieces for those going on safari that there is! If we don't bring it up here to educate future lion hunters where do we. I would agree that adressing this directly with the Du Ploys and Abie would have been more tactful, but it wouldn't have made hunters aware or put pressure on Muchinga Safaris to never have a repeat performance. In hind sight I have to agree with Judge that myself icluded should have used less inflamitory words to make our points. That's a fact and he is a gentleman. I hope with age I will gain his wisdom and restraint.

Brett

Brett,

I know and have hunted with the DuPlooys and they are good people who run a first rate operation, you owe both Abie and Johnny an apology, you know not of what you speak and your previous posts regarding them were completely out of line. Johnny and Abie are both fine PHs and your characterizations of them as half assed SOBs or whatever it was you posted were uncalled for. Muchinga shoots the quota they are allotted and if you have a problem with that take it up with Zambian authorities.

Andy

Lucky for the lion, the overly concerned and obviously wildlife conscious DuPlooy's, have had their lion quota cut from "9" to 4. Since better judgement, and conservation efforts on behalf of the lion were not obviously adhered to by some. Others did take it up with the game dept/ZAWA.

Fact is, quotas are NOT and SHOULD NOT ever be the main concern. Craig Packer, the world's widely recognized lion "expert", will be the first to agree. As do many others in the scientific community. However, they do ALL agree on one thing. For lion hunting, and the natural balance of the lion to continue, hunters/PH's MUST adhere to the off-take of only obviously mature, 6 yr old plus lions! If the operators across consistently shot nothing but 6 yr old + lions, they could shoot as many lions as they darn well pleased, with little to NO negative effect on the entire pride dynamics. If more operators were on board with the science and the program, lion quotas would not even be necessary at ALL, and every single leading scientist will agree. Fact is, just as in this case, greed/opportunity out-weighed logic, and outside sources are forced to step in and take control of the situation. Thus the lion quota across Zambia was cut by 20, over-night, and without ANY explanation. Maybe one too many lion photographs, of lions like the one in question, floating around? Just ask Dr. Easter where he and I have seen that sort of propaganda lately, used solely against the hunting fraternity.

AGAIN, I WOULD HOPE TO SEE ALL OF YOU IN TANZANIA IN JUNE. THEN ONCE EDUCATED ON ALL THE IMPORTANT FACTS AS THEY PERTAIN TO LION/LION HUNTING, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO MAKE A MORE INFORMED POST AS IT PERTAINS TO THE SUBJECT.

You obviously have a hard-on for the DuPlooys, Aaron. What exactly is your problem with them as this thread from the beginning was intended to diminish them?

Rat - Seriously???? Have you read my posts? This is NOT about the DuPlooy's, NOT AT ALL! They just happen to be the outfitter/PH involved. I would have done the same, if any other Zambian PH was involved. This is ABOUT THE LION, not about me, the DuPlooy's or any other single individual, period! My lord, how many times do I need to say that??????????????

quote:

Crazy,

It has been stated that the lion was legal.

Okay, then who was actually at fault?

The hunter?

The Safari Company/PH?

The Goverment of the country where the animal was shot not having better parameters of what is or is not a legal animal?

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
You aren't getting it. Based on the best science you can shoot all the 6 + year old lions out that you can find and it won't negatively impact the population of wild lions.

You shoot younger and you very quickly and dramatically impact the population of wild lions. Especially if you hit a pride male.

So it doesn't matter if you shoot 50 old lions. Whereas it does matter if you shoot 1 pride male.

Fairly accurate assessment!

Folks, for the 88th time. This isn't about me, wrldhunter or whether he can only afford to shoot one lion, and I can hunt em 15 more times. Its about the necessity to learn and understand the problems facing the lion. Its about learning the reasons why we must focus on practicing better lion hunting ethics. Its about bringing to light, some of the problems we have amongst our own. Problems that are only amplified, when PH's lack the responsibility to do the right thing.

I hear about ALL the experience this PH has, the things he's done, etc, etc, etc. All the more reason I say, He Knew Better, and simply failed to care, period! Reading the original Hunt Report, it states pretty clearly that they had plenty of time/opportunity to observe the cats. Had it been a quick/snap decision in low-light conditions, or a million other ways an HONEST mistake could have been made, then that's a totally different story. Fact is, none of that happened. A decision was made, with ample time to judge the trophy, and a complete lack of concern for the plight of the lion. Shameful, and I'll say it again, SHAMEFUL!!!!

So.....Aaron, I see you on the TV, in RSA with some pal or client or something. SHOOTING OFF THE CRUISER.......So taking your model YOU SIR ARE A DISGRACEFUL ROAD HUNTER??? I think not but your straw man argument is the same.

I think emotions run high and thats good, it means passion but gentlemen.....please... the name calling is uncalled for.

Aaron warrants a pass on everything, haven't you figured that out yet?

Hell, how many times now has he renamed his company?

Rat - Warrants a pass? I'm asking for recognition of the needed regulations/morals as they pertain to properly managed lion hunting. When did this become about me asking for a pass?

FYI, I have NEVER changed the name of my company, never!! I have had the good fortune to sell my previous outfitting companies on two different occasions, along with the name sake as one might imagine!!

Aaron,
I believe what Cane is saying is that regardless of your intent, you are coming off as stating this as written on stone tablets on your moral high ground.

How about giving the duPlooys some credit where credit is due? Do you know Rebecca? or Claudia? or Maggie? three German girls living in the bush near the photo camp. They were all doing their PH'ds. One on Leopards one on Servals and the other on Rodent droppings (?).

The duPlooys helped these girls out with food, bait, mechanical help and all sorts of other shit. I became very good friends with Rebecca and still speak to her frequently. She owes her PHd to the duPlooys and Alister.

So part of the story is just that....part or the story. Not everybodies life revolves around AR.

Crazy,

Human trafficking is legal in many countries...especially children.

Do you support peoples rights to trade in humans?

The crux of the matter has NOTHING to do with Zambian law.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Crazy,

It has been stated that the lion was legal.

Okay, then who was actually at fault?

The hunter?

The Safari Company/PH?

The Goverment of the country where the animal was shot not having better parameters of what is or is not a legal animal?

CHC,
Therein lies the problem here, it's all personal perspective. I in fact agree the lion was shot early. But why convene court here on AR? a tiny, minute almost insignificant portion of the hunting public know about AR. All thats been accomplished is ruining some guys perception of his lion.

By Lane's and Aaron's own words they are doing some good work and getting results. But is any of it because of AR?

Steve,

A PH is not doing anyone any service allowing someone to shoot a 2-3 year old lion. That is poor PHing...don't care if he drives a nun to church everyday.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Steve,

A PH is not doing anyone any service allowing someone to shoot a 2-3 year old lion. That is poor PHing...don't care if he drives a nun to church everyday.

Lane,
How did you find out about the nun?

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Crazy,

It has been stated that the lion was legal.

Okay, then who was actually at fault?

The hunter?

The Safari Company/PH?

The Goverment of the country where the animal was shot not having better parameters of what is or is not a legal animal?

CHC,
Therein lies the problem here, it's all personal perspective. I in fact agree the lion was shot early. But why convene court here on AR? a tiny, minute almost insignificant portion of the hunting public know about AR. All thats been accomplished is ruining some guys perception of his lion.

By Lane's and Aaron's own words they are doing some good work and getting results. But is any of it because of AR?

Steve & Rat - I will ONCE AGAIN go over this. Everything I am saying has nothing to do with my Moral High Ground, my personal opinion of the DuPlooys, AR, or any single individual/group of individuals. Who gives a damn what I think, you guys certainly don't?

It has everything to do with the lion, and Africa's wildlife in general. I urge you both to attend the conferences in Tanzania in June, likely we will all learn something. For you guys to think only the few on AR are seeing this stuff, is to be so un-informed of the facts, its not even remotely funny!! Please ask Lane Easter to explain the ammo we have been fighting, that was put together by the anti's, used entirely from websites like AR, showing numerous pics of obviously YOUNG lions shot. They then took this info to the leading lion/scientific experts for analysis. The scientists said, and likely accurate from the pics they were shown, that 70% of the lions were under 4 yrs old. The antis then used that to portray that 70% of the lions shot across Africa are under 4 yrs old, and guess what, USFWS, the EU, etc, BOUGHT IT!!!

My lord guys, the effects of this sort of thing go so far beyond AR, its obviously pointless even trying to explain it. Come to the workshops, get involved, get informed, learn from the leading experts in wildlife science, and then see if you still think I'm just off on some personal rant here. I assure you, I am not!

I'm telling you what will happen, what is already happening, if we as the hunting community DO NOT all condemn these sort of actions. Please listen, its important to all of us.

This is Africa not Texas. African countries do not have the best record in this.

If we don't figure this out the USFWS will for us and close hunting.

Might close anyhow due to locals killing them.

This is the kind of shit that makes me think about never visiting this site again.

Your still missing my point Aaron. I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH THE CONSERVATION.........

Why call Abie, and Johnny names here? it serves absolutely no purpose other than to give names and business to the said anti's

Did you know about the three chicks I told you about?

I COMPLETELY AGREE AND THANK YOU BOTH FOR YOU EFFORT.

I can't go to Tanaznia in June, I am going to a greenpeace sitin in Alberta, then off to protect whales on the Steve Irwin with some really hot hippie chicks.


Steve

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
This is the kind of shit that makes me think about never visiting this site again.

Larry,
As you know I don't post anymore. (except for this) I simply came out of hiding to stand in front of a friend.

To much hostility.

I was a cock when I was ol Chip' but it was all intended as such. This has gotten really bitter.

I'll crawl back under my rock now

quote:

Human trafficking is legal in many countries...especially children.

Do you support peoples rights to trade in humans?

The crux of the matter has NOTHING to do with Zambian law.

Human trafficking has nothing to do with the shooting of an immature lion, why bring it up?

Zambian law permitting the shooting of an immature lion is the center of the problem, that is not rocket science for anyone.

How many times do people have to say they support the work Aaron and yourself are doing, yet do not believe that trying to change things thru peer pressure is the way to go.

What is so hard to understand about that?

Until regulations are enacted in the countries with huntable lion populations that specify male lions have to be of a set age group, people will continue to shoot immature lions saimply because that is what they are paying to do, shoot a lion, age be damned.

What does human trafficking have to do with shooting an immature anything, Nothing what so ever and was a poor comparison.

A person on a hunt he paid for made a choice, and that was his perogative.

You and Aaron have made the c hoice to crusify the hunter, the PH, and the safari company, that is you alls perogative.

While I agree with and support the work you are doing to get this changed, I feel that placing the blame on everyone but the govermental agency in charge of creating and enforcing the game laws in the country where the cat was killed is misguided.

Educate the goverments and the hunters and safari companies will have to abide by the written laws.

Do either of you support the Westboro Baptist Church protesting or celebrating at the funerals of servicemen killed in the line of duty???

That is about as pertinent to this discussion as human trafficking is.

Wow. looks like an internet time-out is in order here. Calm down boys. The facts are a lion way to young was killed by a hunter who had to kill a lion to feel fullfilled and the PH let him. The hunter had the wrong attitude and clearly the PH knew or should have known better. The PH works for the DuPlooy's and they should can him if it isn't their way of running an operation or take the heat if it is.That simple.

Thank You Mr. Cop Out. That is a really great assessment of the situation.

If the laws of the country were such that young lions were not legal game, that would take the CHOICE, out of the hands of the hunter/safari company/PH now wouldn't it.

Game Laws world wide were established because hunters can not or will not police themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
This is the kind of shit that makes me think about never visiting this site again.

Larry,
As you know I don't post anymore. (except for this) I simply came out of hiding to stand in front of a friend.

To much hostility.

I was a cock when I was ol Chip' but it was all intended as such. This has gotten really bitter.

I'll crawl back under my rock now

+1 Me too.

I just found it hard to keep my mouth shut when a new member had his hunt shit all over for posting an honest hunting report regarding a legally taken lion and then the personal attacks and name-calling towards the DuPlooys commenced.


Aaron,

I have no doubt that you are doing good work and have the best of intentions but there are sure as hell better ways of demonstrating it than you have shown on this thread, there is a lot of unnecessary collateral damage here that needn't have taken place.

Andy

wow. 2 days- 5 pages. maybe a new record? keep it guys- i love to watch a barroom brawl.

quote:

Originally posted by Proteus:

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by Proteus:
So.....the booking agent/guide who has killed 11 lions has a problem with the one lion killed by a guy who can afford to hunt them maybe once in his lifetime. Shooting young lions prolly does look bad to the non-hunters but I wonder how they view booking agents who see fit to kill 11 in 16 years.

Why does it matter if the booking agent has killed 11 mature lions on legal quota? Other people on this thread have taken the same position as you and for the life of me I cannot see any point whatsoever in this argument. This is about shooting immature lion(s) and the negative effect it IS going to have on us as African hunters.

Was wrldhunter's lion not legally killed?

Are you not bright enough to see how someone killing 11 lions in nearly as many years might not also look bad to anti hunters and might also have a negative effect on us African hunters? Are you not bright enough to see how someone killing 11 lions in nearly as many years might not also look bad to anti hunters and might also have a negative effect on us African hunters? I'm all for lion hunting but I can't see how wrldhunter killing an immature lion is any more destructive to the future of lion hunting than is Aaron's killing every simba he comes across and then posting it all over the web. You guys are priceless.

You are the one on this thread demonstrating your ineptitude when it comes to both hunting and logical reasoning. I will try to help with the first issue, but I fear if you have not developed deductive reasoning by this point in your life, any time I spent trying to help you in that arena would be a complete waste of time and just frustrate us both.

Yes, it was absolutely legal for the hunter to kill the immature lion. Was it ethical? I do not believe so, but others seem to disagree. Was it harmful to African hunting? I absolutely believe it was, but others disagree. I believe that since we are unable, or unwilling, to police ourselves as hunters, the governments in these countries will step in and provide that enforcement. I do not believe more government is a good solution for any problem, but, again, others disagree.

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
Brett, your post pulled me from beneath my rock.

I've know Abie duPlooy for a very long time, he is one of the pioneers of Zambian professional hunting. I own a current copy of the Zambian top 40. It lists the top 40 trophies for every species hunted. It separates them by game farm or wild as well. I believe Abie duPlooy's name is listed in EVERY SINGLE category and more than two or three in most of them.

Yes the lion is young, yes he should have been allowed to walk. But he is not a piss poor PH and the duPlooys are not a disgrace, they are fine people who are running a business. They do in fact shoot their entire quota every year if possible. Wouldn't you? If the quota is wrong then change it.

The duPlooys (Alister Norton) gave me a dose of Africa that I will never forget, The real Africa. I went back six years in a row. The Luangwa Valley IS the holy grail of our sport.

You opinion is valid Brett, just harsh. If you had an unhappy client would you want what you said, said about you?

Hi Steve! Thank you for your thoughtful and well spoken reply. In hindsight mine was not! I still think my message is good, but VERY poorly communicated. You're points are all well taken. Let me try this again with reserve and class.........

Everyone I've ever spoke to regarding Muchinga Adventures or Abie has had nothing but good to say about the quality of safaris with Muchinga or the ability of Abie. And there in lies the problem. Abie is a very experience, very capable, and very knowledgable PH. His client took a lion that is probably 2 or 3 years old that pretty much anyone should agree had no business being shot. Obviously he knew what he was looking at. That means one thing and one thing only....Abie didn't care! Ignorance is somewhat excusable.....sometimes. Knowing better and just not giving a damn.....now that is inexcusable! And that is clearly the situation we have here. Aaron shooting 11 or 15 or 100 mature lions legally isn't going to contribute one bit to the closure of lion hunting. PHs all across Zambia and Africa like Abie who just don't care.....that's what's going to shut down lion hunting!

The next point that's abundantly clear is that the DuPlooys aren't making lion management or conservations a priority. It certainly isn't being communicated to their PHs that they aren't to take animals like this! And that is the disgrace I was referring to. That is what the DuPloys should be ashamed of! The fact is there are some companies out there that if Abie had been working for them and showed up in camp with that lion he would have been given his pink slip!

When hunting companies take a lease to hunt an area they are taking on more than the right to hunt. They are also taking on the responsibility to manage the land and animals therein. And if they aren't........then the sooner we get rid of them the better! The user mentality of get it while I still can as fast as I can will doom lion hunting. We need thoughtful gardians and hunter/conservationists! The DuPlooys although nice people, good business men, and meticulous outfitters do not seem to be striving to fill this role of thoughtful hunter/conservationists. That is sad coming from such a successful and well thought of company! I just can't help, but think if that's all the better they can do then the sooner their quota is halved the better. I expect better and I would hope you do too!

My last thought is how do we stop this? I can't help, but thinking that you can't trust the average client to 1 accurately age a lion, 2 know about not shooting pride lions, and 3 then have the restraint to not shoot a young lion or old lion with a pride. The answer would seem that hunting companies and PHs must be the ones to draw the line as they are the ones best able to identify that line. If companies like Muchinga state out front 1 you are buying a lion hunt and not a dead lion and 2 we will tell you if you are able to shoot a lion and you will listen to us then a lot of this mess would be alliviated.

Just my 2 cents!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
Brett,

I know and have hunted with the DuPlooys and they are good people who run a first rate operation, you owe both Abie and Johnny an apology, you know not of what you speak and your previous posts regarding them were completely out of line. Johnny and Abie are both fine PHs and your characterizations of them as half assed SOBs or whatever it was you posted were uncalled for. Muchinga shoots the quota they are allotted and if you have a problem with that take it up with Zambian authorities.


Andy

Andy,

My first post was out of line. For name calling I appologize to both of them. That was uncalled for. For my low oppinion of Abie because he clearly doesn't care about lion conservation or for my disappointment/disgust with Muchinga for not making conservation a priority I will not appologize nor do I need to. THEY are in the wrong!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Crazy,

Human trafficking is legal in many countries...especially children.

Do you support peoples rights to trade in humans?

The crux of the matter has NOTHING to do with Zambian law.

Amen Lane! Proof that legal doesn't equal acceptable. Many practices discouraged and illegal today were at one time legal. It's a good thing someone had the courage to stand up and say "This is wrong!"

God help you if your moral compass is determined by what is legal!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Aaron has been criticized for shooting "too many" lions but I think one of the problems is just the opposite, as wldhunter pointed out: he may never return for another lion hunt.

If a hunter is on a once in a lifetime hunt, and doesn't ever intend to return, then shooting an immature lion doesn't really have that much of an impact on them personally. If lion hunting is stopped, so what? It is the "I have mine" mentality.

But I would guess many hunters are oblivious to the whole question of lion aging anyway and have no idea of the conservation questions that are pertinent.

In past posts I have always been critical of the idea of a "once in a lifetime" hunt. If you can only do something once, what if you like it? Too bad, you can't go again. And if you don't like it? You just blew a boatload of cash on something you didn't enjoy as much as you thought you would. My advice to anyone contemplating a "once in a lifetime" hunt is not to go if you can't afford to do it at least twice. But hey, I am not emperor of the world. According to Ms AZW, I am not even emperor of the house; just my trophy room.

All good points!!

Honestly if I didn't read AR I probably wouldn't have a clue (some probably think I'm still clueless) about a Lion's age. I have a tendency to read all I can about a subject that interests me until I lose interest.

Now if I were on a Lion hunt knowing little about Lion age and importance of the Lion being a non-pride holder and older then I probably would have to rely on the PH to guide me in the shooting decision. Guess there can be a fine line there between ethics, business, and customer satisfaction.

I have a Lion/Leopard hunt booked for 2012, also in the Luangwa. The PH and I have been in close contact for some time. I made it clear I will not shoot an immature Lion. He made it clear he would not allow me to shoot an immature Lion. We structured the contract to reflect that by having it worded that the Lion hunt gets downgraded to a Leopard hunt should a mature Lion not present itself.

That way, I am not burdened with temptation to shoot something I probably shouldn't.

And nor I.

Gentlemen,

I think we are loosing sight of reality here.

Neither the PH nor the client in this case have done anything wrong, and we are bashing them because we do not agree with them.

The PH followed the laws of the country he is hunting, and complied with the wishes of his client.

Very simple really.

What gives us any right to take them to task?

The same goes for those who are taking Aaron to task for shooting several lions.

He has not broken any laws either.

I know, some would argue that it being legal does not make it right.

Then it is up to the individual to do what HE, alone, thinks is right.

It is no one's business telling others what they should and should not shoot.

I would not shoot a young lion today.
But ten years ago I would have shot the lion we are arguing about here without any hesitation.

It is up to the country in which the hunt is conducted to decide on this.

Keeping in mind that what is legal in one country might not be legal in another. And if you do not like what laws that country has, do go hunt there.

I get a little tired of the if it's legal argument.

No one on this forum can claim that they are not aware of the plight of the Lion and this subject has been discussed many times before.It is in the international spotlight and who gets it in the neck? The likes of you and I, the hunters. We are to blame for the demise of this great animal and we do not do much to help ourselves. We shoot a Lioness up against a fence that separates her from her cub and for a few dollars more you get to shoot the cub. Sure its legal but it is internationally unacceptable and this is what we are up against. The media jumps all over the shooting of females and young animals and it is not what we are about.

We boast of elephant for the weight of Ivory. We boast of buffalo as in spread and the hardness of horn. Who comes to Africa and shoots a young buffalo cow? No one but it is legal. We start that shit and we can kiss good bye to hunting as we know it. No one will give a toss whether it is legal or not.

Point is that we need to clean up our act and adhere to basic rules and morals that are attached to the sport of big game hunting and it is up to all who participate and not just the PH to be more aware of our actions.

For the first time in history we who hunt Lion have a voice, not a very big one but nevertheless we are being heard and together with the world's leading experts is has been acknowledged that there are indeed some benefits attached to the hunting of Lion and the protection and management of their ranges. They gave us that one on a plate and with only one simple condition attached - that the Lion should be fully mature and of certain age. They even and graciously accepted some margins of error. So what do we do? We tell them to get stuffed and took the plate and threw it out the window because one of Africa's Wildlife Departments has not got it's act together?

Because of a legality?

Saeed,

Looks as if we posted at the same time and note mine is not a direct response to your post although it may look like it.

We beg to differ on this subject.

The winds of change are blowing across Africa and hunting is no longer carefree. We as hunters are being told what to do and by forces beyond our control.

Quite right - 10 years ago no one would have given a stuff about you taking half a dozen young Lions in a morning. We would have called this good hunting and an acceptable bag. Those days are over and we are witnessing the dawn of a new era.

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
You obviously have a hard-on for the DuPlooys, Aaron. What exactly is your problem with them as this thread from the beginning was intended to diminish them and their reputation?

Do you believe the PH should be proud of this lion? Will this lion be prominently displayed on their website in years to come?

If the answer is yes, then there is no reason for anyone to have a problem with them.

If instead the answer is no, then ....

Folks - I'm gonna make one final post regarding this thread, and this particular situation. Some will agree, some will not. I knew that before I started this mess, but frankly not saying something, never even cross my mind.

Normally I too say, leave other hunters to their own standards/desires, etc. I for one would no longer consider shooting a 2-3 yr old 120" - 140" whitetail, it just doesn't appeal to me, and it seems such a waste not to let the animal reach maturity. BUT, if others hunters do it/like it/enjoy it, I say, good for them! I'm am sincerely happy for others who choose to hunt, likely for some of the same reasons I do. The whitetail is a hugely successful specie all across our country, and hardly in any danger of decline, an ESA listing, etc.

The lion on the other hand, a totally different story! Lion numbers across Africa, the WHOLE of Africa, are debatable. But less than 50,000, I could believe that. Hell, Texas alone has an estimated deer population of what, 3 million plus?? With a population of Lions that is certainly threatened locally, and under intense pressure from an ever-expanding local population/loss of habitat, and other competing interests. We as hunters, operating in the last great lion refuges outside of National Parks, which just so happens to be hunting blocks all across east/south Africa. Are the last line of defense for the lion, his habitat, and the wildlife he depends on for survival. If we ourselves are not willing to be stewards of the lion, why would you think the "world" should continue to look favorably on lion hunting, or hunting in Africa at all?? If we continue to prove to them that we are more concerned about success/profit as it pertains to the lion, then we certainly must feel that way about all other African species too, right? Thus, it only seems logical that any non-hunter/anti-hunter, would have no reason to support us as it pertains to any legal hunting issue across Africa. If we cannot police ourselves, on this most important issue facing African Hunting right now. We will never get the support from any of the non-hunting community to do so in the future.

Continued Lion Hunting, especially in Zambia/Tanzania is SO vitally important to the continuation of ALL the hunting blocks, its importance in my opinion is completely over-looked by almost everyone, and many here on AR too. A couple very simple examples will illustrate my point. In Zambia/Tanzania, in the vast majority of cases with hunting companies, and their hunting blocks, the LION is their big ticket item! I'll use my good friend, Richard Bell-Cross' Lunga-Luswhshi GMA as an example. He currently gets, and maintained his 3 lion on quota per year. 3 Lion hunts, at roughly $60k each, is a huge portion of his annual income. Income that is used to NOT only support himself/family, but is ALSO used to support ALL of the anti-poaching efforts put forth by Pro-Hunt Zambia Ltd, the community efforts, etc, etc. Without continued Lion Hunting, he would struggle mightly to stay in business, period! The operation in which he currently runs, to include the things I mentioned above, would simply become too costly, and he simply would not be able to sustain, or at minimum huge cut-backs would certainly be necessary. So, once that happened, I ask you one simple question. Who would take over the efforts put-forth by Pro-Hunt to protect the Lunga Luswishi from poaching?? Answer: NO ONE!!!!! This same scenario would repeat itself time and time again, all across Zambia/Tanzania.

Muchinga Adventures itself, is a prime example of the loss we are already facing. Recently their lion quota was reduced from 9 to 4. Just like that, poof, gone! You don't think that's gonna have a huge effect on their bottom line, their ability to support themselves, the community, and the anti-poaching efforts they put forth as well? How could it not?? No one I know, including Dr. Paula White can account for the exact reasoning behind the Zambian quota reduction, although several of us have our theories, have heard rumors, etc. However, Dr. Easter and I can attest that photos of these obviously YOUNG lions, like the one in question, are being used frequently by the anti-hunting, and scientific communities, as they call for change, and in some cases, a complete elimination of ALL lion hunting. And ironically they do so, without the slightest clue as to the hugely detrimental effect that closing lion hunting, or reducing the quotas to such a low number, would have on the operator and his ability to run/protect his area, and MORE IMPORTANTLY, the game within these areas. If an operator can no longer afford to operate his block/blocks, he will have no choice but to abandon them, period! Once that happens, locals move in, poaching takes over, and the game, ALL THE GAME, not just the lion, is eventually eliminated. This very scenario has already happened, time & time again, and will continue, if we contribute to our own demise. (If you need another example of this VERY scenario recently playing out in Tanzania. Ask Bwanamich and Wendell Reich, to give you their run down on the Kigosi Game Reserve over the past couple years)

Bottom line, loose lion hunting and the loss will be so much more devastating than most are remotely considering. Muchinga Adventures, just like ALL of the rest of the Zambian/Tanzanian operators have a huge responsibility on their shoulders right now, and a huge target on their backs. Their decision to intentionally harvest a 2-3 yr old lion, has a negative impact, so much wider and broad reaching than just themselves. Evident by the recent country-wide reduction in lion quota, from 65 to 45! Evident by the petition to up-list the lion on the ESA, in which pictures of young lions just like this one, have recently been used to make their case. Evident by the new mandated 6 yr old law in Tanzania, and the list goes on.

Although I have upset some folks here, my intention was not to do so. My intention was to raise continued awareness to the problem, and frankly the complexity of the problem, one that is much larger than I think 90% of the hunting community realizes. I know this, because along with other hard-working hunting activists, I am right in the middle of it. Unfortunately Muchinga was the example used here. It wasn't for any personal vendetta at all! I had no beef with them prior to this, none at all. Frankly, always heard good reports, and had no reason to think differently. Perhaps some took offense to my way of handling this, calling them out, etc. I will apologize for any un-necessary bantering about, it does sometimes take away from the message. However, I will NOT apologize for my decision to state the facts, and bring to the fore-front, a message that says "some of us will not stand for these poorly chosen actions any more". I will work tirelessly to rid the hunting fraternity of operators/PH's who will continue to make poor decisions as they pertain to lion management/hunting. A decision to shoot a lion like this has wide-ranging effects, effects much like the huge lion quota reduction, the ESA petition, and negative outcomes that effect ALL operators/PH's/hunters. When the poor decision of one, can effect the masses, the masses must must stand for change.

The LCTF will be working with the folks in Tanzania to make the killing of lions under 4 yrs old, illegal and non-exportable! We will also be asking for a fine for the PH, the operator, and an immediate reduction in quota. We are hoping to get a points system put in place, similar to the Niassa program, in Mozambique. Where Dr. Colleen Begg says, that since the inception of the program 7 yrs ago, it has been a very good success. When she started the Niassa Carnivore points system, she says that roughly 75% of the lions shot were under 6 yrs old. Now, with education and concern by ALL the operators, less than 25% of the lions shot each year in the Niassa are under 6. After Tanzania, our next goal is Zambia.

I do hope, if you personally have a concern for the lion, or African Wildlife in general, you will do your best to join us in Tanzania in June. Even as you read through this thread, I mention the importance of this workshop time & time again, and yet some find it nothing more than a joke? You may not like me, you may not always agree with me, but know that at least I'm there trying to fight for your sport, your passion, and your African Wildlife. I may not always make decisions you agree with, but I will do my best to always make them in favor of the wildlife.

My sincere regards,