I am a little confused about the reception of Aaron's post. He has already apologized for the wording and indicated that it should/could have been stated better. Here is my problem:
It seems OK to jump all over "canned" lion hunts and the video that surfaced. Is it OK because the hunter in question is not a member of AR?
Is it not OK to to point out a perceived ethical issue and the perceived detrimental effect on the future of lion hunting if the hunter is a member of AR?
Before the hunter deleted his posts, as I recollect he stated that he had no regrets about shooting the lion, so obviously he is unaffected by the thrust of the current thread (even though it was aimed primarily at the PH and the outfitter), and has also been congratulated for his lion on this forum.
I have seen Larry Shores' videos, including his elephant hunt last year where he left empty handed because of all the elephants he saw, none were shootable. Was he stupid for doing so? He is certainly out a significant amount of money on that hunt.
It certainly does seem that some regard a list of animals to be hunted as a "shopping list". I do not claim to be immune from this.
I also find it disturbing, if, as has been stated above, there exist quotas for animals that just do not exist in that area. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but I guess one should ask; "How many have been taken in this area in the past" and hope that there are still some left?
It does seem that there is something unique about the lion and it's situation in Africa at this time.
Because of the cost, I will probably never hunt a lion.

Just some thoughts from a neophyte, Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Very true, but and it is a big but, they didn't evolve with the pressure of man hunting them with high powered rifles. The rules have changed for them.

Are you suggesting evolution ceased to exist with the invention of the rifle and does not take place today?

Lane,

Of course not. What I am saying is that the pressures on the lion population are now different from what they were when the current lion behavior and genetic response to those evolutionary pressures evolved. Evolution responce is dependent on the forces that cause them.

Thank you all for the invitation to the conference. I would love to attend but unfortunately, I am just a retired wildlife biologist with very limited funds. I will look forward to seeing the results of the conference.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
465H&H
I think it has been mentioned a few times before - we are taking it for granted that when we mention >6 year old lions, that these are for non-pride holders or pride holders without dependant young in the pride. The former is the absolute preferred offtake target and the latter is an acceptable offtake.

As for the question on younger males as targets, these are your "replacement stock" and should not be considered. you rightfully point out that these are more numerous which would also make them the most commonly shot lions by hunters (if allowed) and within a short time you will find that these young males are not around to replace the old pride males who are hunted or naturally killed, etc.

My point was that there is a surplus of young lions and some could be an off take without hurting the population. Whether it is controllable or not is another question.

465H&H

I think something that people are not taking into consideration is that if you take lions like this you are damaging coalitions. Coalitions allow young lions like this to feed themselves to up there chances of survival to maturity let alone the fact that a coalition ups their chances to aquire a pride. And prides held by coalitions tend to have a longer "riegn of power" than prides held by single males. That equals more pride stability, less infanticide, and higher cub survival rates. All of which in my opinion are good things!

Brett

But the more successful the coalition of young lions are the more and earlier the chance they will be able to drive off a pride male. No?

465H&H

Which is going to happen anyway. The presence of the coalition is likely to result in the previously mentioned longer period of high cub survival. Infanticide is a normal and unavoidable part of lion society. We are not trying to stop lion generated infanticide, but human generated infanticide.

Brett

IT IS A TOTAL DISGRACE

Well..... I see we have a long way to go.

The bottom line for me on this subject, is that I hope thru the efforts of Aaron and Dr. Easter and who ever else is involved, that people will be able to hunt properly managed lions far into the future.

I would also hope that folks come away from this conversation understanding that not all of us believe in exactly the same things or have the same beliefs about hunting, regardless of the animal being hunted, and our place in the picture.

I would also hope that folks realize that just because they don't agree with them 110% on an issue, it does not mean they are your enemy or have no intelligence or feelings on the subject at hand.

double WOW!! 3 DAYS AND 7 PAGES. GOT TO BE SOME KIND OF RECORD.

jdollar,

I'll tell you what is a record: The amount of "admissions of guilt", the "Sorry I admit I was wrong...." attitudes that was exhibited. I've followed many such pissing matches on AR before, and this one have by far the most such, let me say mature and manly admissions!

I sure wish I could find a way to attend at least the first Tanzanian WD & LCTF meeting. Have I missed seeing the exact dates?[It is now rather a lot to read through just to get the dates, if I've missed them. ]

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew McLaren:
jdollar,

I'll tell you what is a record: The amount of "admissions of guilt", the "Sorry I admit I was wrong...." attitudes that was exhibited. I've followed many such pissing matches on AR before, and this one have by far the most such, let me say mature and manly admissions!

I sure wish I could find a way to attend at least the first Tanzanian WD & LCTF meeting. Have I missed seeing the exact dates?[It is now rather a lot to read through just to get the dates, if I've missed them. ]

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Andrew - We are waiting for Paul Funston to set the dates with the WD in TZ, then we will coordinate in conjunction with that.

Aaron,

Good work that you guys are doing in organizing the conference. I don't know what the agenda will look like but from my experience the larger the group the more difficult it is to get a consensus. One possible solution is to get a core working group of 5 or 6 individuals with strong biological backgrounds to develop a draft working plan for lion management. Then send the draft out to other scientists, safari operators, game departments etc. for comments. Then a final draft plan can be formulated from the input received.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Aaron,

Good work that you guys are doing in organizing the conference. I don't know what the agenda will look like but from my experience the larger the group the more difficult it is to get a consensus. One possible solution is to get a core working group of 5 or 6 individuals with strong biological backgrounds to develop a draft working plan for lion management. Then send the draft out to other scientists, safari operators, game departments etc. for comments. Then a final draft plan can be formulated from the input received.

465H&H

465,

We implemented your exact plan some time ago and are well into the plot as you described.

Your way ahead of the game!

465H&H

I was going to PM this to Aaron, but I will post it here for all to see.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Guys - Regardless of the delivery, I do think my thread was necessary. Granted, my emotions at the MOMENT got the better of me, but I would do it again. Maybe with a different presentation, but certainly the same message.

You could have used more tact, but you would have been wrong to do so. The emotion your "rough presentation" stirred-up has sustained this conversation far, far longer with for more participation than if you had posted a general "preaching thread".

I can state this with some confidence because I was the hunter whose young lion was attacked when I posted a photo several years ago.

Bwanamitch took me to task, but he was too polite and the thread died.

I have no doubt that the hunter whose lion you attacked was pretty crushed by your post, but I can tell you from personal experience all you did was sped-up his learning curve. With my own lion(killed in 2003) it took me several years accept that my lion was simply too young to be considered a "trophy".

Anyway, what has come out of this sh** storm is of real value and may be the beginning of a new page for the African lion.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

I would not shoot a young lion today.
But ten years ago I would have shot the lion we are arguing about here without any hesitation.

It is up to the country in which the hunt is conducted to decide on this.

Saeed

I did shoot a young lion about 8 years ago and I agree that times have changed. I would not do the same again today.

To put things into perspective, I believe Boddington's first two lion were too young be today's standards. Maybe this will soften the blow to the client whose lion started this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

It is up to the country in which the hunt is conducted to decide on this.

The problem is that the laws currently in place will spell the end of lion hunting, and the lion, if WE don't change them fast.

Well said, Jason.

Jason,

Thank you! What a class act!!!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Jason,

Thank you! What a class act!!!

+1 That's awesome Jason! What a phenominal attitude!

Brett

quote:

it took me several years accept that my lion was simply too young to be considered a "trophy".

This is one of the things that is brought up by the docs on the wiki that the concept of 'trophy' should largely be determined by age; the older the lion, the greater the trophy, not necessarily by mane, body size etc or in other words: looks. Another great point one person makes is that the outfitters should be selling ADVENTURE and the ability to hunt wild cats, not just dead cats. That, to me, is a reasonable path to sustainability, not just the lion but any other pressured specie.

I've checked this thread from time to time, but didn't feel compelled to comment until now. You could say that I do have a dog, albeit a very old one, in this fight.

The first time I hunted in Africa was in 1983. At the ripe old age of 24, I was able to take a 24 day safari with Roy Vincent, then of Peter Johnstone's Rosslyn Safaris. The hunt I bought was a conservation deal with the Matetsi wildlife office of Zim Parks and Wildlife. It was originally a 21 day affair in Deka that offered everything except a lion. I inquired about taking a lion and was told that if I extended the hunt to 28 days, they'd add a lion. I didn't do that, only adding 3 extra days, and have long regretted not adding a lion as one of the very first animals I saw the first afternoon was a fabulous, heavy dark maned lion at all of 25 yards. As it turned out, that was the only male lion I saw on that entire trip. I took a fantastic bag that included a big leopard, a 58 lb. elephant and 2 buffalo bulls with large bosses and spreads exceeding 41"...but no lion.

My 2nd safari, again with Roy and Rosslyn in 1986, was a 15 day hunt in Charara that focused primarily on lion. While my hunting partner, hunting with Peter, saw several very nice lions (he was not hunting them), try as we might through tracking and baiting, Roy and I never saw a single shootable lion. We enjoyed fantastic buffalo hunting, and I shot an old elephant bull back at Matetsi at the end of the hunt, but again - no lion.

My 3rd safari, in Botswana in 1989 with Cecil Riggs, was where I finally took a lion. It was another 24 day hunt, with the first 8 days in the Kalahari, and the remainder up in the Delta, along the Kwando and Selinda Rivers. While we were also hunting buffalo, leopard, sitatunga and other plains game, it was a nice lion we wanted more than anything. We saw a number of lions in the desert, but none with nice enough manes to consider. I left the desert with a nice leopard and all the antelope, but no lion. Once we got up north, we saw far fewer lions, but did see a couple that I'd loved to have taken, but it just didn't work out. The first big cat we found, Alistair McFarlane (one of Vira Safaris owners) kicked us out of James Camp so he could bring in a high roller (a very well known guy who shall remain nameless to protect the innocent) to kill that lion, which they did. We had to spend almost a week at another camp where we found the very best lion I've ever seen in the wild. He had a heavy, full, ginger colored mane, and was simply spectacular. We encountered him several times, but never were able to close the deal. Finally, we got word that we could head back to James Camp, and since there was a lot more game in that area, especially buffalo, we headed right back. On the 22nd day of this 24 day hunt, we struck the tracks of a pride of 5 or 6 lions. We tracked them on foot for miles and hours, and eventually caught up with them. The male was relatively large bodied, but didn't have much mane. We'd previously discussed what I'd shoot, and my answer had been 'any mature lion that you think is good enough'. I'll never forget Cecil evaluating the cat, and finally saying 'he doesn't have much on top, but he's got enough of an apron - shoot him'. And I did. After 2 safaris and 39 days baiting and tracking on foot, I'd finally taken a lion as part of an incredible hunting adventure. However.....

He was not that old of a cat, probably a 3 or 4 year old lion. His skull measured right at 24" and he was 8'10" long. HOWEVER, he was still a young lion. In just a few months, it'll be 22 years since I took that cat. He is most likely the only lion I'll ever shoot, though if finances eventually allow for it, I'd like to hunt them one more time with my son. Am I glad I shot that lion? Mostly. I am appreciative that I did take one, and he does look nice and provide me with warm memories of one of the best periods I've ever spent in the wild, but I've often regretted taking one as young as he was, even back in those days when it was not nearly the issue it is today.

In this day and age, I believe any hunter aspiring to take a lion should go to Africa informed and educated about the issue of lion age, and it should come from his PH and/or safari company. Perhaps Conservation Force or some other organization should publish a booklet on the lion issue and aging that every hunter would have to read before going on a lion hunt. I don't believe any PH should be so cavalier about the issue and should be held to some standard when evaluating lions. I also believe there should be some penalty against the safari company if they take a cat that is under aged. Perhaps a fine or better still, a 1 for 1 reduction in future lion quota for the company after taking a lion of, say, 4 years old or younger. If the goal is to take 6 year old and older lions, having a stiff penalty for taking a 4 year old cat would give incentive to be careful, but also allow some room for the occasional lion that turns out to be younger than 6 years old, but not an obviously young cat. In other words, allow a 5 year old cat to be taken, but have some mechanism in place to discourage it while not making the penalty so harsh as for an obviously young lion.

quote:

This will upset some of you I am sure, but, in reality, since predatory species do not have the reproductive capacity of the prey species they depend on, it may be time to looking at limiting the number of lions of any size that any one person can kill in their lifetime.

Many states already do that with species such as bighorn sheep, moose etc..

Luckily or unluckily depending on each individuals point of view, the resource was made available for all, not just the priveledged, Elitist few.

Maybe some consideration during the meetings you folks have been talking about, should be directed at just exactly how many lions any one person needs to kill in their lifetime, regardless of their feelings about the animals or their conservation.

.......
To me, it is even more uncalled for, when coming from some one that has multiple lion kills under their belt, and their main concern, seems to be, Not getting the officials involved, but trying to create an honor system.

What honor is their in telling folks that they can't kill a legal animal on a hunt they are paying for, simply because it does not meet the standards of a person with multiple kills of that same animal under their belt.

Looks to me like the best way to garner support for this type deal, would be for the experienced/successful hunters with multiple kills to their credit, to be willing to voluntarily give up shooting that animal and work toward educating the various goverments involved so that proper management techniques, such as limiting the kill to males of a certain age class, and also limiting the number of lions any one person could kill.

Maybe reality in my world as far as hunting is concerned deals with having to give up former legal practices so that future generations will have game to hunt, but it has to be done in a manner that is fair to all, not just the enlightened or elitist in the crowd.

Muchinga uses all their quota and it's abad thing......... Arron buys up left over quota at years end and shoots lions that MAY not get shot at all that year, thus allowing them to age even more, and it's a good thing.......

People shoot young lions because there are not enough old lions to go around and one guy, one that proposes only shooting old lions, and already has killed 11 by the way, shames him? In my book that's bad form and poor manners.

That's wrong and immoral in my opinion.

This is getting as ridiculous as hunting whitetailed deer in Texas. "Only those I have shot are good enough, yours is not", it's wiping out the next generation of hunters in this state.

Why sit cold in a blind seeing deer that they can't shoot when they could be home, warm playing nintendo or texting????

Most all hunters if allowed and not chastised completely away from hunting evolve......my first buck was a basket rack 4 point ( Texas count ) I was very proud of that deer, still am. Those horns a still displayed in my loading room. Would I ever shoot another one like him? No. Would I let a kid shoot one like that for his first? Yes, I sure would, but next year that kid would need to wait on something better, evolution........

Just my .02 worth.

I am glad you fellas are doing something for conservation, really, but 11 lions and still killing them? When they are in such dire straits. That doesn't seem like the high road to me.


.

JTEX,

Not sure this was about an operator fulfilling their quota and you may want to re read the posts here.

Aaron shot 11 and who shot the other several hundred over the last few years? Does not really matter does it? You see the cup half empty and I see it half full. Aaron for all his faults has done more for conservation of this specie than all of us put together.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
JTEX,

Not sure this was about an operator fulfilling their quota and you may want to re read the posts here.

Andrew,

If, in the case of Muchinga, Johnny's quota is 9 lions and he pays for the quota upfront and they were to kill less than that would they be refunded the unused quota?

Thanks,
Andy

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

This will upset some of you I am sure, but, in reality, since predatory species do not have the reproductive capacity of the prey species they depend on, it may be time to looking at limiting the number of lions of any size that any one person can kill in their lifetime.

Many states already do that with species such as bighorn sheep, moose etc..

Luckily or unluckily depending on each individuals point of view, the resource was made available for all, not just the priveledged, Elitist few.

Maybe some consideration during the meetings you folks have been talking about, should be directed at just exactly how many lions any one person needs to kill in their lifetime, regardless of their feelings about the animals or their conservation.

.......
To me, it is even more uncalled for, when coming from some one that has multiple lion kills under their belt, and their main concern, seems to be, Not getting the officials involved, but trying to create an honor system.

What honor is their in telling folks that they can't kill a legal animal on a hunt they are paying for, simply because it does not meet the standards of a person with multiple kills of that same animal under their belt.

Looks to me like the best way to garner support for this type deal, would be for the experienced/successful hunters with multiple kills to their credit, to be willing to voluntarily give up shooting that animal and work toward educating the various goverments involved so that proper management techniques, such as limiting the kill to males of a certain age class, and also limiting the number of lions any one person could kill.

Maybe reality in my world as far as hunting is concerned deals with having to give up former legal practices so that future generations will have game to hunt, but it has to be done in a manner that is fair to all, not just the enlightened or elitist in the crowd.

Muchinga uses all their quota and it's abad thing......... Arron buys up left over quota at years end and shoots lions that MAY not get shot at all that year, thus allowing them to age even more, and it's a good thing.......

People shoot young lions because there are not enough old lions to go around and one guy, one that proposes only shooting old lions, and already has killed 11 by the way, shames him? In my book that's bad form and poor manners.

That's wrong and immoral in my opinion.

This is getting as ridiculous as hunting whitetailed deer in Texas. "Only those I have shot are good enough, yours is not", it's wiping out the next generation of hunters in this state.

Why sit cold in a blind seeing deer that they can't shoot when they could be home, warm playing nintendo or texting????

Most all hunters if allowed and not chastised completely away from hunting evolve......my first buck was a basket rack 4 point ( Texas count ) I was very proud of that deer, still am. Those horns a still displayed in my loading room. Would I ever shoot another one like him? No. Would I let a kid shoot one like that for his first? Yes, I sure would, but next year that kid would need to wait on something better, evolution........

Just my .02 worth.

I am glad you fellas are doing something for conservation, really, but 11 lions and still killing them? When they are in such dire straits. That doesn't seem like the high road to me.


.

JTEX - I've never bought up left-over quota for a lion hunt, ever!!

Muchinga choosing to shoot a 2-3 yr old lion, had nothing to do with me, my lion hunting past, etc. Their choice, and their's alone!

Comparing the huge enormity of the situation facing the African lion, with the whitetail deer. Is so far from reality, that I'm not even sure what to say??? I've already touched on the whitetail thing, in this thread as a matter of fact. I could not care less what deer someone else chooses to shoot, not in the least. The whitetail deer is not in danger of being listed to the ESA, hunting stopped, the species threatened, etc, etc.

If more folks here were informed about lions/lion conservation, etc. The fact that I have shot 11 lions or 44 lions, would have absolutely NOTHING to do with the argument. I'll shoot 11 more if I get the chance, but my lion hunting will always go hand in hand with lion conservation. Unlike the the PH in question!

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
JTEX,

Not sure this was about an operator fulfilling their quota and you may want to re read the posts here.

Andrew,

If, in the case of Muchinga, Johnny's quota is 9 lions and he pays for the quota upfront and they were to kill less than that would they be refunded the unused quota?

Thanks,
Andy

Hi Andy,

You only have to commit to 60% of your quota and not obliged to buy all of it up front. Concession fees yes. There is no refund on trophy fees purchased and therefore the last safari of the season puts quite a bit of pressure on the PH.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
JTEX,

Not sure this was about an operator fulfilling their quota and you may want to re read the posts here.

Andrew,

If, in the case of Muchinga, Johnny's quota is 9 lions and he pays for the quota upfront and they were to kill less than that would they be refunded the unused quota?

Thanks,
Andy

Hi Andy,

You only have to commit to 60% of your quota and not obliged to buy all of it up front. Concession fees yes. There is no refund on trophy fees purchased and therefore the last safari of the season puts quite a bit of pressure on the PH.

Thanks Andrew! That answers my question. I was thinking one must pay for all quota available upfront.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
If more folks here were informed about lions/lion conservation, etc. The fact that I have shot 11 lions or 44 lions, would have absolutely NOTHING to do with the argument. I'll shoot 11 more if I get the chance, but my lion hunting will always go hand in hand with lion conservation. Unlike the the PH in question!

JTEX,

The best current research on lion conservation, management, and hunting says that it doesn't really matter how many lions you shoot. What matters is what lion you shoot. If you shoot mature males 6 years or older that are not with a pride with dependant cubs you can shoot all you want with minimal to no affect on the lion population. In theory if outfitters were willing to only shoot mature lions without dependant young you could do away with quotas all thogether and allow the outfitters to take what they can. I believe the Niassa system rewards outfitters only taking 6+yo lions by upping their quota the next year. So it really doesn't matter how many lions Aaron or anyone else for that matter kills. What does matter is what kind of lions they are. Quotas become very necisary when outfitters refuse to limit their taking of lions to mature males without a pride with dependant cubs.

Brett

quote:

Comparing the huge enormity of the situation facing the African lion, with the whitetail deer. Is so far from reality, that I'm not even sure what to say??? I've already touched on the whitetail thing, in this thread as a matter of fact. I could not care less what deer someone else chooses to shoot, not in the least. The whitetail deer is not in danger of being listed to the ESA, hunting stopped, the species threatened, etc, etc.

Aaron, you are quite correct in the above statement.

No one is trying to put white tails on the Endangered Species list or curtail hunting of them, except, many folks have been working really hard to get white tail hunting regu;lated to the point where a very vocal group has the ear of various G&F depts., trying to or getting regulations enacted that match the groups ideas/concepts of what deer should be shot.

Even though white tails are probably the most numerous game animal on the planet.

When I first got involved in this whole series of discussions, on the surface, much of what was being stated, seemed to me, a paralelle case, except it was with lions.

It seemed like you and Dr. Easter, were saying that shooting lions was okay, as long as the animals being shot fell with in your standards, my comprehension, not your goal.

Brett called my morals into question on the issue, which is his business, but supporting the legal take of an animal is my business.

With all the cards on the table, I applaud yours and Dr. Easter's efforts and hope you are successful in them.

However, my points still remain, and on one of them, I do not believe Anyone has addressed my question of how many lions should a person be allowed to kill in their lifetime.

Also, if USF&W continues allowing the hunting of lions by Americans, everything will go for naught, if the countries allowing lion hunting do not change their laws and established set rules for what is or is not a legal lion.

As strongly as some of you feel on this issue, do you feel that there are not also folks out there that are going to try and kill every legal lion they can before the cats are placed off limits.


On top of that, if USF&W does place lions on the No Take list, will that effect anyone but Americans?

I've read a lot of this thread, but maybe have missed a few posts, so if what I am going to say is redundant I apologize.

First, I do agree it is a good thing to try and self-regulate this and make it better. Will it work? Who knows, if sanctions, voluntary or not, are only taken against/by hunters than it still leaves probably the larger issue of local hunters unaddressed. It seems the only real solution will be a combination of both voluntary hunter restrictions on what they shoot, as well as laws in country. And for what it is worth, I am not a supporter of the US passing laws to manage the wildlife of other countries. It sounded like from what one poster put that the US had placed restrictions on import from one country because they didn't agree with their conservation policies. It isn't the US job to police everybody else in the world. I don't think it ultimately does anything to help the African country. but I'm getting slightly off topic.

Prefacing something with "no offense" is really chicken shit. Not saying you shouldn't post, just saying the truth is when we write something and put that disclaimer we KNOW it is going to offend somebody and therefore MEAN to offend. Just my 2c on that part. You are single minded in achieving your goal in the way you see fit, the hunter in question also had every right to disregard you and your thread and keep enjoying himself (as I would have in his shoes).

What interests me more about all this and has only been mentioned slightly, and not gotten great discussion, is the costs related with these hunts and what modifications should be made to the hunter to keep them from getting that idea of "I paid f*&#ing much for this I'm damn well taking something home!"

I too have always said "it's the experience". Truth is I am always disappointed when I hunt and am not successful. But being 2 hours from home and only out the cost of gas and my license/tag it isn't a hard pill to swallow, I can go again, and again etc.

Not everybody makes as much as an outfitter or the other guys on here that get to take multiple examples of a species. Some guys save and it's their one shot. They pay a premium price for certain species hunted, not including the higher trophy fee. I'm guessing if I had just shelled out a shitload of money for my one chance at Lion and was on the last or second to last day of safari all the cats would be looking bigger than they did the first day.


I have some questions for outfitters/guides.

1. Why is it more expensive to hunt lion than just buffalo (exclusive of trophy fees)? Is it much harder hunting?

2. Is there a reason it is much cheaper for the outfitters to hunt lion than clients, or do they make more money? (I'm honestly curious, no attitude should be implied to this)

3. If there were more restrictions on the lions that could be taken, wouldn't that lower the chances of success? If so, would the price then go down on lion hunts to compensate of the increased odds of failure?

The way I look at it if I'm spending a lot of money there should be a good reason for it. And if I saw a lion and was told I couldn't shoot it, and it was the only legal one I'd seen, there was no discount applied for a failed hunt, knowing that the people that made the laws were going to get additional opportunities, I'd start feeling like the sucker paying for somebody else to have a great hunt instead of me.

Don't read that as I want to shoot young lions, I agree with game management. My point is just saying,"don't shoot young lions" to people that are likely inclined to be responsible isn't going to go down well if you're not also saying,"we're going to crack down hard on local hunting and killing of lions, and we're going to be more fare in the pricing. And further, if you come over here where we know the country and are familiar with what game lives in our management area, we're confident enough when we book you that you'll be successful, that if you aren't, we'll refund/discount xx amount".

I hope my post falls in the 10% understandable group.

Red

quote:

1. Why is it more expensive to hunt lion than just buffalo (exclusive of trophy fees)? Is it much harder hunting?

Harder hunting? No, and if over bait easier. Not enough lions to go around for everyone who wants to hunt them. Buffalo can be hunted on a 7 or 10 day hunt, lions can't, you might could kill your lion on a short hunt but you will pay for 21 days or more to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Brett called my morals into question on the issue, which is his business, but supporting the legal take of an animal is my business.

My comments were not intended to call you or your morals out. I was simply stating that sometimes being legal doesn't make something good or right and perhaps using as your (plural you all not YOU) guiding principals in life what is legal might not be the best standard. Segrigation was once legal. You could claim that those enforcing segrigation in the 50s were within the letter of the law, but I'd tend to argue that it's incredibly shabby no matter what the law says. Know what I mean? I'm not questioning the legality of Abie's decision, but saying that it was an incredibly shabby decision.

Brett

No problem with any of that from this corner.

As I say, part of my problem arises from witnessing folks, belittling someone over their choice of what they killed.

Some of that might be warranted, but when it is directed at a first time hunter, regardless of their age or social standing/station, I find it very distasteful.

I have learned that people have a tendency to forget or overlook some of the kills they made when starting out, but In My Opinion, that does not grant them Carte Blanche to go off on someone, due to a simple lack of experience.

I am sure there are parmeters/information regarding the issue that Aaron and Dr. Easter are privvy to, that will possibly/probably never see light of day on this site, which is probably for the best.

African Lions and a few other species are critical, where some species aren't.

Better education of the folks involved in hunting lions, on the business end of it, not the hunters.

Again, that is my opinion, but between regulations and Safari companies and their PH's, all being in the same boat about what is and is not best for the over all health of the lions in any concession, that will go a long way to keep sport hunters from killing cats that should not be killed.

Even with the efforts being put forth by folks such as Aaron, Dr. Easter and others, it is possible that in the very near future, the people that want to, will not be able to hunt lions, and that will be a Black Day for hunters and anyone else that likes lions, for it will likely be the end of free ranging wild lions and only farm raised ones will remain.

I did not intend my whitetail comparison as a reflection on population of animals or rarity, I believe you should have easily seen the point I was trying to make.

I think it is about as apt as the "legal to own slaves" comparison made earlier.

One mans trophy isn't always anothers.


I don't really believe 100% that all 11 of your "mature" lions were beyond breeding age or without a pride nor do I see any way you can prove without adoubt they met both of these criteria.

I don't understand how this Gentlemans ( yes HE has behaved like a Gentleman ) 1 young lion with no pride can be claimed as completely worse for the lion population than your 11 lions.

I think the antis would have a field day with both of you.

Playing the Devils advocate it "could" be said that you are some kind of "wealthy Game Hog that just enjoys killing for the sake of killing". I could make the case. Who needs to kill 11 lions in this day and time when Lions are on the edge of extinction?????

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
I did not intend my whitetail comparison as a reflection on population of animals or rarity, I believe you should have easily seen the point I was trying to make.

I think it is about as apt as the "legal to own slaves" comparison made earlier.

One mans trophy isn't always anothers.


I don't really believe 100% that all 11 of your "mature" lions were beyond breeding age or without a pride nor do I see any way you can prove without adoubt they met both of these criteria.

I don't understand how this Gentlemans ( yes HE has behaved like a Gentleman ) 1 young lion with no pride can be claimed as completely worse for the lion population than your 11 lions.

I think the antis would have a field day with both of you.

Playing the Devils advocate it "could" be said that you are some kind of "wealthy Game Hog that just enjoys killing for the sake of killing". I could make the case. Who needs to kill 11 lions in this day and time when Lions are on the edge of extinction?????

JTEX - Not even sure what to say man?? In one sentence you say the lion is on the brink of extinction, the next you say don't judge another man's trophy. My concern for the lion, has nothing to do with "one man's trophy, isn't always another's" Shoot 8,000 spike whitetails if you want to, kill another 3,000 bucks that are 2.5 yr old, 120" - 10 pts, if that's what makes you happy. And if so, I'll be just as happy for you. This is about the urgent plight of the lion, not because I am against the lion because its not what I consider a "trophy". I'm really not sure how much more clear I can be on this???????

You're right, not all 11 lions I have shot were the optimal lion to shoot, and I NEVER claimed they were. My very first one in particular! I shot my first lion in 1995, my now educated guess, he was 4 yrs old. I was happy, I was thrilled! Fact is, I had to ask the PH if it was a "big one", "a trophy", cause I didn't know shit about lions. Difference is a couple of things. First, back then even the scientific community didn't really understand the full dynamics of the lion, nor proper lion hunting management, much less did the hunting community. We just didn't know. Secondly, I was 23 yrs old, on my very first safari, and was relying solely on the PH, as I knew nothing about lions back then! However, over the past 5 - 7 yrs or so. Anyone with a clue, and certainly AR participants/lurkers, and especially Zambian PH's with 20-30 yrs experience, are definitely aware of the huge amount of scrutiny lion hunting and lion conservation practices are under. Yet, the PH simply ignored the issue and chose to shoot a 2-3 yr old lion, regardless of the outcome! Just didn't care, period!

Let me ask you a question, based on the extreme pressure from outside sources to close/curtail, etc, all lion hunting across Africa. Does it even strike you in the least bit odd, that out of the entire Zambian country wide reduction in lion quota of 20 animals, a full 25% was reduced from this one company alone?? All the operators in Zambia, and one company gets the "lion" share of the quota reduction. The same company that just 6-7 months ago was still willing to shoot a 2-3 yr old lion.

I will take one exception to the claim folks have made about the "hunter" in this case. As I have stated 30 times now, my beef was with the PH/operator, not him. He's a hunter, he's there to hunt, do as his PH says/allows him too, etc. I totally understand and agree with that. But, once my complaint came to light. His statement was that regardless of the situation involving the lion as a whole, he doesn't regret shooting it! With that sort of selfish attitude, what else should we expect from the non-hunting world? That simply tells them that, I as a hunter really don't care about good conservation practices, I only care about killing one! In fact, it tells folks like me in the hunting community, the very same thing. My whole point the this thread was to enlighten, make aware, and try to give folks something to think about/consider, when making these decisions. Think about the consequences of your actions, as it pertains to the lion, the hunting fraternity, and the perception of hunting from the outside world. I wanted it to be known, that we should not, and cannot afford to tolerate this sort of lion hunting practice any longer. For the sake of all of us, and the lion. Not just so I can go shoot 11 more lions! My number 1 concern is the total and complete protection of the lion, period. Anyone who does not or cannot see that, then I'm really sorry for offending you. The fact that you JTEX can't understand the difference in shooting a 2-3 yr old lion, vs shooting mature lions, I'm not sure what else to say? I figured by now, we've pretty much covered that here on AR over the past couple yrs, this thread included?

Lastly, I am 100% certain you cannot make a case for me being a "wealthy game hog", or anything else for that matter. JTEX, I can't recall the last time we got to know eachother personally? "Wealthy", ya I wish! If I enjoyed killing, just for the sake of killing, I would have a couple more lions that look just like the one in question. Masailand 2005, I passed two different male lions, both between 3-4 yrs old. Killing em, would have been easier than getting out of bed. In 2007 I saw 8 different male lions in Zambia, on one single hunt. Never pulled the trigger, never even considered it. Mostly 3-4 yr old lions, could have easily killed one, and some really bad luck on the big one we were trying to get. I left a $60k hunt, empty-handed, on several occasions. Was I disappointed yep, do I regret not shooting an immature lion, NOPE!!!

This argument to me, was never about his "trophy" vs my idea of a "trophy". It was, is and always will be, about the the conservation of the lion!

Sorry, but I leave the country in about 4 hrs, so likely I will not be posting anymore on this one. I do hope at some point in time, my critics on this thread, see where my concern was coming from and recognize it for what it was meant to be. It was not about one person, it was about all of us, and all the lions in Africa. Sorry if my intention was lost in translation/emotion.

Sincerely,

i feel like we are beating a dead horse. The facts are there. If they stop lion hunting I promise you within one day they will move on to another species until they stop all hunting period.
We can say anything we want to Aaron about message delivery but he can say no more than what he said.
I Think we as hunters should now start the good fight and save lion hunting.This will not be easy and my best guess is everyone who has posted will be on the side of the lion and after doing some research and reading the information not the post you will agree we have to get it together and do whats best fot everyone in the hunting community. I really think the hunter in the post would agree,after learning the plight he too would be on the side of saving lion hunting. I can not speak for him as I have never met him but i hope he would come to feel this way. Good hunting

The concept of the message was good.

The delivery of the message was far from well thought out.

The division of hunters is never a good thing.

A properly thought out message should have been delivered.

No hunter, new or old should be belittled when shooting a legal animal.

As mentioned previously, Boddington's lion was not a great lion, but who pulled their nose out of his a*$ to send the same message Mr. Neilson sent to Mr. Wrldhunter.

As stated, the delivery of this message was quite bad.



TSK

quote:

Originally posted by The Shadow knows:
As mentioned previously, Boddington's lion was not a great lion, but who pulled their nose out of his a*$ to send the same message Mr. Neilson sent to Mr. Wrldhunter.

....20-30 years ago when he shot it/them. Back then they didn't know what we know now, lion populations weren't in the same shape they are now, and taking lions like that was acceptable. Now there's no excuse for not knowing better. Certainly on the PH's part! If Boddington took an immature lion today rest assured he'd take it on the chin!

Brett

I have been a member of AR for several years and find it to be an invaluable resource for information and ideas.

From his initial post Aaron stated he did mean to offend the hunter, but was angry with the outfitter and PH for taking such a young lion. While some may find the manner in which Aaron conveyed his message, he did get his message across. Let's be honest, if Aaron had soft pedaled or sugar coated his message it would have been lost in a day or two. The information and discussion that has come out of this has been eye opening and informative.

I don't know Aaron, have never met him, and don't have business dealings with him. I do know that he is passionate about lions, and he, along with Dr. Easter and other have decided to walk the walk and do something to ensure lion hunting continues.

Aaron and others on the task force are the proverbial canaries in the coal mine and see the winds of change that are starting to blow. I admire them for stepping up to the challenge and dealing with the issue. The easiest thing to do is sit on the sidelines and throw spears. Its difficult to actually get involved and try and do something.

We are not talking about buffalo, deer, or any other species. We are talking about an apex predator, a cat, the stirs emotions in all people.

Living in Maryland, I have battled the HSUS for the last 20 years (their headquarters are here)down at the state capital and I know how they work. The animal rights crowd pick an animal all people can identify with, make up some facts, show a few pictures of young animals killed, and use it as cash cow to increase their bottom line and try to win their battle in the court of public opinion. For them, science nor fact matters.

Some have said, "who cares, it was legal". I ask, shouldn't we as hunters and the first and true conservationists care. I am sure the same statements were made over 120 years ago in the US in regards to bison. Aldo Leupold said it best "Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching- even when doing the wrong thing is legal."

I have been fortunate to hunt Africa a few times over the last few years and hope to hunt it several more times during my lifetime. Will I be able to afford a lion hunt, perhaps not? I will feel better though knowing that folks like Aaron, Dr. Easter and others are working to ensure that myself and future generations have that opportunity. Teddy Roosevelt stated "Wildlife cannot speak for itself...so we must and we will."

Enough said.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Since this thread should be about education then here's a question. How do you tell the male is not a pride holder when it's dusk and he comes to the bait. Does he stay close to the females so there's a group at the bait? Serious question. Just trying to learn.

There are several "subtle ways" of determibing this - and this is where the "baiting method" of hunting lion becomes very useful.....

It starts off with knowledge of the hunting area. The more experience a PH and his "hunting team" of trackers has with a particular block, the more he will have a good understanding of the number of prides with males and their respective approximate territories. A healthy field monitoring program using field dat and GIS can truly provide a lot of useful data in this. Therefater, the baiting program will/should revolve around where the PH considers the best chance to find any non pride males (The fringes of pride territory for example). Nost PHs will set baits where recent tracks or lion signs have been noticed. Often these tracks will "tell" you if there are females and sub-adults or cubs.

Once baits have been hit, one can easily tell if the male is on its own or accompanied. If accompanied, the bait set-up is the best method to "study" and "observe" the "pride" for signs of young or lactating females. Any such sign should immeadiately "end" that particular hunt.

Sometimes, multiple stays at a blind are necessary for the Ph to determine the suitability of a male for harvest. Again, a bait and blind method is the best method to determine this (sorry to the "purists" of the track and stalk method which is suited to "known" old lions).

A pride male that hits a bait solo is rarely not joined by his pride in short order - multiple sittings at the blind will reveal this. A blind setting also allows a PH who has lot's of experience with the hunting block to positively identify a male that has already been observed before (Known pride male).

These are just some common scenarios.

Thank you. Good information.

quote:

Originally posted by The Shadow knows:
The concept of the message was good.

The delivery of the message was far from well thought out.

The division of hunters is never a good thing.

A properly thought out message should have been delivered.

No hunter, new or old should be belittled when shooting a legal animal.

As mentioned previously, Boddington's lion was not a great lion, but who pulled their nose out of his a*$ to send the same message Mr. Neilson sent to Mr. Wrldhunter.

As stated, the delivery of this message was quite bad.



TSK

Didn't you make your grand anonymous appearance on these forums by accusing a well respected PH of being a poacher?

Ok, my first 5 reply's I deleted before posting. Now after I have thought this out some my attitude has changed somewhat. Although I am not a "cat" hunter,lion,leopard, cheetah, etc if I ever do I want them to be there and in good sustainable numbers to do so.

I applaud Lane and Aaron for their work on this subject, their passion is maybe over the mark but that may be needed. Unfortunately they lost me when they went on the verbal assault, name calling etc. I can give them a free pass on that one just because it is so easy when you feel so strongly on a subject to get overheated in the battle.

I ask in the future,, please continue to educate me on the facts, and what we as hunters have to do without the stone throwing or some of us just won't buy in and it is too important to let the opportunity pass and the lion hunting, elephant hunting, or whatever hunting decline to where my kids and grand kids can not live the Africa dream I had the ability to do.

As Lane probably has some experience as a vet,, it is a lot harder to put the skunk back in the bag after it is let out. The air will clear, I will continue to use Ar as a very informational forum that I enjoy. The post got off to a bad start but I think anyone who has read these post should now understand the importance of their conservation efforts. Keep up the hard work..

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:]

....20-30 years ago when he shot it/them. Back then they didn't know what we know now

Brett

Perhaps you didn't know, but some who are older hunters did know what was going on with the lion situation. And Boddington should have known as well.

Ten 2x2 safaris with my old friend for lions resulted in successful lion hunts, with none that were as poor trophy quality as CB's.



Hunters that were actively involved in many conservation projects cited recommendations were made when the Selous was mapped.

Or were you too young or too unconcerned until this thread popped up ?

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by The Shadow knows:
The concept of the message was good.

The delivery of the message was far from well thought out.

The division of hunters is never a good thing.

A properly thought out message should have been delivered.

No hunter, new or old should be belittled when shooting a legal animal.

As mentioned previously, Boddington's lion was not a great lion, but who pulled their nose out of his a*$ to send the same message Mr. Neilson sent to Mr. Wrldhunter.

As stated, the delivery of this message was quite bad.



TSK

Didn't you make your grand anonymous appearance on these forums by accusing a well respected PH of being a poacher?

And where is the promised rebuttal from Mr. Josch, there sport ?