quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:

I worked hard for my money (LOL).

. . . so does the camp staff.

Yes but I am not their employer.

Out of the $1400.00 a day I and he other clients are paying the employer should be able to pay them a competitive salary I would think.

I think in the end about 90% of the complaining about tipping is driven by the feelings of guilt and embarrassment of those that are too cheap to tip. Just one opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I think in the end about 90% of the complaining about tipping is driven by the feelings of guilt and embarrassment of those that are too cheap to tip. Just one opinion.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Naki, Steve, I really don't care for the tone that is in this thread...probably more pertinent to the political forum.

But...

In regards to Naki

You are originally from India, and spent your formative years there.

India has a tipping culture.

The camp employees are not very well compensated relative to your status (or mine, for that matter) and as a service consumer there, you are in both a position of being in a receiving tipping culture and being born in a tipping culture...you didn't lose your cultural heritage when you became a New Zelander, and if you spent any time in the US as a work visa holder, you didn't abrogate tipping here, either.

Claiming your new cultural norm as an excuse to not behave in the established norm is a personal reflection. It would be neither gentlemanly nor Christian to refuse to tip in Africa on a hunting trip, if you felt the service was adequate. Single handily claiming New Zeland status to get out of it is disengenuous. If your children did it, it still is not really appropriate, as one should obey the norms in the place where one is visiting, but could be explained as they didn't know better. You do.

The argument whether it is appropriate to tip, and the level of tipping is a different argument altogether, and I would agree that New Zeland has a better cultural norm than we do in the US as far as tipping goes. That being said, it does in no way excuse your claim here that "I am a Kiwi, so I don't need to tip." I suspect your parents would not approve of that statement as far as back in India or in Africa, for that matter.

Tipping is a cultural and social norm, not a condition of nationality.

Steve, your response was not very gentlemanly here... and I know you are better than that.

Well said Sir.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I think in the end about 90% of the complaining about tipping is driven by the feelings of guilt and embarrassment of those that are too cheap to tip. Just one opinion.

Agreed!


.

From the messages I am getting, it seems people have no problems paying tips, as long as they are happy with the hunt.

More than one message asked about the $100-$150 per day tip given to the PH is being too much, if we take into consideration they get paid anywhere between 150-300 per day. I SM not sure about these figures, may be someone will enlighten us.

My clients and my Safari companies from the beginning of our partnership understand that a tip is a GIFT, not even required, if its $1.00 or $1000.00 it is to be appreciated..

Why make it more complicated than that. If a company is tip prone and have grown to expect it, they get moody if they are not gifted enough in many cases, I would suggest they adopt our attitude or just charge more, and say no tips accepted..

My system has worked for me and the safari companies..

I do belive they should tip the PH the whole amount and let him distribute it to his staff, then the staffers know what to expect and you don't have camp issues..The camp staff can be as child like as Democrats or politicians and create an unhappy camp enviorment out of jealousy when a hunter gives the waiter of his tent $50 and the tracker $10.00, he has just upset the pecking order.

Most of my companies give the staff an amount f money in front of the hunter on the last day and that gives the hunter satisfaction and the staff a chance to shake the hunters hand, thank him and wish him well..Nice little ceremony with lots of laughs and good byes.

I will add to this that some hunters are not as financially fit as others, Some have suffered and saved for 4 or 5 years to afford a Safari, while others can go as many times as they wish.. A $50 tip to that guy may be more difficult than a $1000 to another person, its not always about being cheap! and folks in the business need to take that into consideration if they intend to remain in the business long term..

One thing Ive observed in this thread is a number of folks posting are mostly surmising and have not been in the Safari business with all its different problems. Management is the key to success moreso than the hunting (that's the easy part) Survival in the business does not exist on tips although some try and make it do that, they do not survive.

This is why I have always used envelopes. I have asked for suggestions from the PH. On my second safari the camp manager was the same person as my first, even though the camp was completely different and very far away from the first. The first camp was much better run than the second, so he got 1/2 the tip he got in the previous. I have used envelopes because friends told me that they had first hand experiences when a camp manager or even a PH kept the tips. The only request I have ever gotten from a PH is not to tip until the safari is over to make sure the person shows up for work the next day.

I bet that many operators would put up prices and yet pay the staff poorly - simply because they can.

I suspect that many operators including tourism operators aim for "First world" life style and income in a "3rd world" society. They target luxury clients and luxury income but pay pauper costs for staff.

One of the sad realities with less educated rural societies is that many people just stop working when they have money in the pocket and go home to their village. I bet hunting operations are no different.

I lectured Post graduate students at a Hotel management school a few years ago & found that in most 5 star hotels and resorts, the staff including duty managers are paid very poorly ! Senior hotel mangers get 2 or 3 times what a duty manager gets!

Australia is one of the few places where hospitality staff (including students) are well paid! It is not uncommon for resort staff to be paid wages of $22 to $25 with overtime rates in peak holiday season going to $30+ per hour! Christmas, New Year etc. see even higher wage rates!

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Guys,

We of course are rehashing the same old comments on tipping but suggesting that if the safari operator would just pay his crew more there would be no need to tip is false economy. Who do you suppose would pay for that increase in the crew's wages? Your daily rate would skyrocket and I promise you the custom of tipping would not disappear.

Mark

quote:

Giving 200 dollars to a tracker is almost what some people get paid in NA for unloading 40ft containers 5 days a week for a 40hr week.

Meaning these guys get paid $5/hour - really?

NA needs to review its Labor laws and wages wouldn't you think - or are you one of those who screws their employees to increase the profit margins?

Nakihunter must have missed this!

I have never used envelopes to pay the staff seperately, and have no intention to do so.

One always gets the right impression if he is in a happy camp - or one were hints are dropped for a hand out.

And if one hunts repeatedly with the same people, seeing the same camp staff year after year proves they are happy, and that proves they are being paid what they should have.

I remember the remark made by a PH who joined us for the first time, saying he has not seen a happier camp staff like this before.

Camp staff work extremely hard, unseen, and they deserve whatever tip one sees fit to give them.

It does not get much lower on the human decency scale when a PH keeps the tips meant for them.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Giving 200 dollars to a tracker is almost what some people get paid in NA for unloading 40ft containers 5 days a week for a 40hr week.

Meaning these guys get paid $5/hour - really?

NA needs to review its Labor laws and wages wouldn't you think - or are you one of those who screws their employees to increase the profit margins?

Nakihunter must have missed this!

You idiot,
After deductions someone working at 11 dollars hour/40hr will net only about 300 dollars maybe less.

Tipping should be for youths only or for squeegeers.Adults should receive a salary from there employer.But if employers cannot trust themselves with their employees salary then maybe tipping is a good thing.But I don't mind tipping on a hunt I just think there could be a better or more evolved system.BTW I believe there are employees that have to hand over there tips to their employers.i don't know if this is the case on a hunt but it raises the question.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Giving 200 dollars to a tracker is almost what some people get paid in NA for unloading 40ft containers 5 days a week for a 40hr week.

Meaning these guys get paid $5/hour - really?

NA needs to review its Labor laws and wages wouldn't you think - or are you one of those who screws their employees to increase the profit margins?

Nakihunter must have missed this!

You idiot,
After deductions someone working at 11 dollars hour/40hr will net only about 300 dollars maybe less.

Not sure who the idiot is around here other thn the Village Idiot who wrote, and I quote:

"Giving 200 dollars to a tracker is almost what some people get paid in NA for unloading 40ft containers 5 days a week for a 40hr week".


I see no mention of $300 nor any tax deductions either, nor would I think a tracker is faced with any deductibles so it would be a nett $200.

Stick to what you are good at: shooting cows, and bad-mouthing your PH for your self inflicted masochistic adventures!

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Giving 200 dollars to a tracker is almost what some people get paid in NA for unloading 40ft containers 5 days a week for a 40hr week.

Meaning these guys get paid $5/hour - really?

NA needs to review its Labor laws and wages wouldn't you think - or are you one of those who screws their employees to increase the profit margins?

Nakihunter must have missed this!

You idiot,
After deductions someone working at 11 dollars hour/40hr will net only about 300 dollars maybe less.

Not sure who the idiot is around here other thn the Village Idiot who wrote, and I quote:

"Giving 200 dollars to a tracker is almost what some people get paid in NA for unloading 40ft containers 5 days a week for a 40hr week".


I see no mention of $300 nor any tax deductions either, nor would I think a tracker is faced with any deductibles so it would be a nett $200.

Stick to what you are good at: shooting cows, and bad-mouthing your PH for your self inflicted masochistic adventures!

Your an idiot and a sleaze ball.

quote:

Your an idiot and a sleaze ball.

I wonder if you've the balls to say that to my face Mr. Shoot-a-mouth.

I think bottom line, the more generous the tips, the less the outfitters have to pay their staff, which means more money for the owners/investors.


It would be interesting to see how a typical outfitter allocates the moneies he/she is paid just for the daily rate on a 10 day safari.

Out of, let's say $1000.00 a day, who gets what???

I would think most outfitters make a profit off the trophy fees, so that should take care of any costs associated with the individual animals killed.

That would leave staff costs (camp staff and PH), fuel costs, food, and equipment depreciation.

BH63

Interesting points that I have wondered about as well.

Daily rates of $800 to $2000 for buffalo, leopard, elephant or lion seem to be the norm.

Why such a BIG difference in daily rate? Yes the chase is often arduous. But the staff are the same. May be checking baits will need another team and there is probably a higher vehicle cost. But I cannot see that becoming double or triple a base daily rate that already includes ALL overheads. I cannot see how marginal cost go up 200%.

I doubt that the field or camp staff get paid more for a lion or elephant hunt compared to a buffalo hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
I think bottom line, the more generous the tips, the less the outfitters have to pay their staff, which means more money for the owners/investors.


It would be interesting to see how a typical outfitter allocates the moneies he/she is paid just for the daily rate on a 10 day safari.

Out of, let's say $1000.00 a day, who gets what???

I would think most outfitters make a profit off the trophy fees, so that should take care of any costs associated with the individual animals killed.

That would leave staff costs (camp staff and PH), fuel costs, food, and equipment depreciation.

BH63

I have been told more than once that the country's government has influence on the daily rate. Not true?

Supply and demand. It doesn't cost 3-5 times as much to conduct a DG hunt as it does to conduct a plains game hunt. And please don't tell me that DG hunts are conducted in remote areas with expensive logistics. A quick look at plains game daily rates in the Save vs DG daily rates pretty tells you all you need to know. When the number of permits is small and the demand is high, all costs to the consumer go up. A camp in the Zambezi Delta, Caprivi, Zim, etc costs the same to supply regardless of what the client is hunting.

I am beginning to appreciate that some outfitters have stopped mentioning tips in their offers.

May be the message is getting across that tips ARE optional, and so do not have to mentioned along with taxidermy etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I am beginning to appreciate that some outfitters have stopped mentioning tips in their offers.

May be the message is getting across that tips ARE optional, and so do not have to mentioned along with taxidermy etc.

Or are they getting smart and "hiding" them in the overall costs?

The problem with that comes at the moment of disbursement and in most cases the recipient could/would be short-changed if the outfitter is a douche bag.

That is true.

Still pales in comparison to outfitters who do not pay their professional hunters for months after the hunts have ended!

Despite the fact them receiving the money well in advance of the hunts in question!

Last 10 day hunt in Moz with exceptional PH, trackers, camp staff, wine, food Etc. You get it.

2 buff, one fully skinned, one cape
2 eland, same as above
2 impala both fully skinned and caped
1 zebra skinned
2 warthogs caped

PH $2k, each tracker (2) $500, skinners $500, camp $600, camp manager who made sure the meals were excellent and wine plentiful $500. I feel blessed to have had people that worked their asses off for my enjoyment and am happy to VOLUNTARILY share a little wealth rather than the gov't forcing me to.

Worth every penny of it for outstanding work they earned it. To those who don't tip have fun living your life feeling you are superior to those that work their asses off so you can have a good hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by blackdogsrule:
Last 10 day hunt in Moz with exceptional PH, trackers, camp staff, wine, food Etc. You get it.

2 buff, one fully skinned, one cape
2 eland, same as above
2 impala both fully skinned and caped
1 zebra skinned
2 warthogs caped

PH $2k, each tracker (2) $500, skinners $500, camp $600, camp manager who made sure the meals were excellent and wine plentiful $500. I feel blessed to have had people that worked their asses off for my enjoyment and am happy to VOLUNTARILY share a little wealth rather than the gov't forcing me to.

Worth every penny of it for outstanding work they earned it. To those who don't tip have fun living your life feeling you are superior to those that work their asses off so you can have a good hunt.

. . . well stated.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I think in the end about 90% of the complaining about tipping is driven by the feelings of guilt and embarrassment of those that are too cheap to tip. Just one opinion.

I agree. When you tip for good work you are paying directly to the folks that are working their asses off with families to feed. Your PH, trackers, camp staff don't get annual reviews and corporate bonuses. Their lives are way simpler and if they do a good job then pay them some extra.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by blackdogsrule:
Last 10 day hunt in Moz with exceptional PH, trackers, camp staff, wine, food Etc. You get it.

2 buff, one fully skinned, one cape
2 eland, same as above
2 impala both fully skinned and caped
1 zebra skinned
2 warthogs caped

PH $2k, each tracker (2) $500, skinners $500, camp $600, camp manager who made sure the meals were excellent and wine plentiful $500. I feel blessed to have had people that worked their asses off for my enjoyment and am happy to VOLUNTARILY share a little wealth rather than the gov't forcing me to.

Worth every penny of it for outstanding work they earned it. To those who don't tip have fun living your life feeling you are superior to those that work their asses off so you can have a good hunt.

. . . well stated.

Indeed!!!!

I think this thread has a distinct dichotomy of clientele that is not being highlighted properly.

You have the wealthy clients who can afford tipping $4k, $10 k or a double rifle. They have the spare cash as a discretionary option and they can do what they want, and not worry about the mortgage or the kids education or their retirement. This subject really does not affect them. They can choose anyone they want to hunt with.

The other group (me included) are the middle class people with limited resources who consider every $ spent as a special expense. From my point of view, an outfitter who doubles or triples his daily rate for a DG hunt has already factored in the wages, tips, Christmas bonus and retirement funds for all the staff.

If tips are really a part of the staff's wages then charge a base daily rate & stop eye gouging, double dipping and STOP hiding behind the "market" argument.

There is no "market" factor in tipping. That is just extortion IMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I think this thread has a distinct dichotomy of clientele . . .

Yep, cheap and not cheap.

Spare me the lecture about someone who has the money to go on safari being unable to tip because it is a stretch for them. Rings a little hollow in my view.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I think this thread has a distinct dichotomy of clientele . . .

Yep, cheap and not cheap.

Spare me the lecture about someone who has the money to go on safari being unable to tip because it is a stretch for them. Rings a little hollow in my view.

Like the guy at the gas station with a Ferrari complaining about the price of gas...

I disagree with you on this sir. Your view is only relevant to Americans. That is the issue raised by many - that the PHs use the American practice to extort tips from other clients.

A working class guy like a teacher or a middle level manager may do a safari and spend $15k to $20k door to door (say buffalo & some PG). I planned exactly such a trip and I know how carefully I had to plan every $. There is no way I could afford $2k on tips.

Why should I even have to pay $1k on tips?

Yes, I know that NZ does not have a tipping culture but India has. But then I am happy to follow the Indian model and tip 30 cents - which is Rs20!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I think this thread has a distinct dichotomy of clientele . . .

Yep, cheap and not cheap.

Spare me the lecture about someone who has the money to go on safari being unable to tip because it is a stretch for them. Rings a little hollow in my view.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I disagree with you on this sir. Your view is only relevant to Americans. That is the issue raised by many - that the PHs use the American practice to extort tips from other clients.

A working class guy like a teacher or a middle level manager may do a safari and spend $15k to $20k door to door (say buffalo & some PG). I planned exactly such a trip and I know how carefully I had to plan every $. There is no way I could afford $2k on tips.

Why should I even have to pay $1k on tips?

Yes, I know that NZ does not have a tipping culture but India has. But then I am happy to follow the Indian model and tip 30 cents - which is Rs20!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I think this thread has a distinct dichotomy of clientele . . .

Yep, cheap and not cheap.

Spare me the lecture about someone who has the money to go on safari being unable to tip because it is a stretch for them. Rings a little hollow in my view.

So then don't tip and be confident in your decision and beliefs...but don't blame other cultures if you're feeling insecure in your choice.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

A working class guy like a teacher or a middle level manager may do a safari and spend $15k to $20k door to door (say buffalo & some PG). I planned exactly such a trip and I know how carefully I had to plan every $. There is no way I could afford $2k on tips.

I rest my case . . . someone is paying $20K for a vacation and wants people to believe they cannot afford a 10% tip. No harm in being cheap, just own it.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I think this thread has a distinct dichotomy of clientele that is not being highlighted properly.

You have the wealthy clients who can afford tipping $4k, $10 k or a double rifle. They have the spare cash as a discretionary option and they can do what they want, and not worry about the mortgage or the kids education or their retirement. This subject really does not affect them. They can choose anyone they want to hunt with.

The other group (me included) are the middle class people with limited resources who consider every $ spent as a special expense. From my point of view, an outfitter who doubles or triples his daily rate for a DG hunt has already factored in the wages, tips, Christmas bonus and retirement funds for all the staff.

If tips are really a part of the staff's wages then charge a base daily rate & stop eye gouging, double dipping and STOP hiding behind the "market" argument.

There is no "market" factor in tipping. That is just extortion IMHO.

Nakihunter has a valid point. The PH's I have hunted with have all stated that they are salaried and tips are very welcome but not expected. I am not so naive as to believe there is not some tongue in cheek there but I have always tried to compensate people that are working hard for my benefit to the best of MY ability and commensurate with the level of service I have received.

In this era of big government taking from us and randomly redistributing to anyone regardless of their effort to succeed and better themselves I am more than happy to help out hard working folks that I can see are doing their utmost to make my safari or dinner exceptional. I will also be the first to call out half assed work or meals and tip appropriately.

Bottom line is you do what you are able. If $100 is large for you then they will understand. I am proportionally generous based on my ability to pay and I sincerely believe those PH"S trackers and camp staff understand. It is the clientele that comes in expecting royal treatment from folks making peanuts that is irksome to all.

Americans are seen as generous and helpful and everyone in Africa that I have dealt understands not everyone owns oil fields.

Mike what is a vacation for you is not so for me.

Do you tip your car dealer when you buy a car?

I consider a safari like any major purchase I make.

As I said, you have an American mindset on tipping. Just don't impose it on others who do not have the same social / cultural context!

I know you are normally a gentleman but you calling others cheap is quite rude.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

A working class guy like a teacher or a middle level manager may do a safari and spend $15k to $20k door to door (say buffalo & some PG). I planned exactly such a trip and I know how carefully I had to plan every $. There is no way I could afford $2k on tips.

I rest my case . . . someone is paying $20K for a vacation and wants people to believe they cannot afford a 10% tip. No harm in being cheap, just own it.

Not Africa, but my experiences here working as a guide. I am happy with ANYTHING anyone gives me and I know I have done the best job I could for my clients and never have cared or worried about whether they could or would give me a tip.

The concept I am seeing in these discussions appears to be one of if a person can not afford a certain level/amount of tips for the Safari Crew, then they should probably should not go on Safari.

If I am wrong with my estimation, then I am wrong and I apologise to anyone I offended. But in looking at all the comments, that appears to be an underlying theme.

Personally I would hate to see things reduced to the point that someone/anyone could not take a long dreamed of African Hunt, simply because they could not afford a certain level of tips.

Thank you sir for a very valid point.

I also consider it rude and offensive for anyone to call a non-tipper as cheap etc.

Most PHs know that some very wealthy European clients who do repeat safaris do not tip. Buzz Charlton has posted that before.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Not Africa, but my experiences here working as a guide. I am happy with ANYTHING anyone gives me and I know I have done the best job I could for my clients and never have cared or worried about whether they could or would give me a tip.

The concept I am seeing in these discussions appears to be one of if a person can not afford a certain level/amount of tips for the Safari Crew, then they should probably should not go on Safari.

If I am wrong with my estimation, then I am wrong and I apologise to anyone I offended. But in looking at all the comments, that appears to be an underlying theme.

Personally I would hate to see things reduced to the point that someone/anyone could not take a long dreamed of African Hunt, simply because they could not afford a certain level of tips.

I am calling someone cheap that will spend $20K on a safari and then lament that they cannot afford $2K in tips. If you prefer you can use the term disingenuous in lieu of cheap.

quote:

Thank you sir for a very valid point.

You are Welcome. No Thanks, were necessary as issues such as this one merely points to the divisions that are affecting hunters/hunting, that really should not be issues.

JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by blackdogsrule:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I think this thread has a distinct dichotomy of clientele that is not being highlighted properly.

You have the wealthy clients who can afford tipping $4k, $10 k or a double rifle. They have the spare cash as a discretionary option and they can do what they want, and not worry about the mortgage or the kids education or their retirement. This subject really does not affect them. They can choose anyone they want to hunt with.

The other group (me included) are the middle class people with limited resources who consider every $ spent as a special expense. From my point of view, an outfitter who doubles or triples his daily rate for a DG hunt has already factored in the wages, tips, Christmas bonus and retirement funds for all the staff.

If tips are really a part of the staff's wages then charge a base daily rate & stop eye gouging, double dipping and STOP hiding behind the "market" argument.

There is no "market" factor in tipping. That is just extortion IMHO.

Nakihunter has a valid point. The PH's I have hunted with have all stated that they are salaried and tips are very welcome but not expected. I am not so naive as to believe there is not some tongue in cheek there but I have always tried to compensate people that are working hard for my benefit to the best of MY ability and commensurate with the level of service I have received.

In this era of big government taking from us and randomly redistributing to anyone regardless of their effort to succeed and better themselves I am more than happy to help out hard working folks that I can see are doing their utmost to make my safari or dinner exceptional. I will also be the first to call out half assed work or meals and tip appropriately.

Bottom line is you do what you are able. If $100 is large for you then they will understand. I am proportionally generous based on my ability to pay and I sincerely believe those PH"S trackers and camp staff understand. It is the clientele that comes in expecting royal treatment from folks making peanuts that is irksome to all.

Americans are seen as generous and helpful and everyone in Africa that I have dealt understands not everyone owns oil fields.

If you think black Africans understand that 1 American can afford to tip $500 but the next American can only tip $50 then you are naive'. They believe all Americans are rich and should tip accordingly.