quote:

Originally posted by SFRanger7GP:
Bloody hell people! Give what you can and give from your heart......or don't give anything. Regardless of your decision, be comfortable in your own skin and own it. I find it interesting that some people from countries that do not have a tipping culture have trouble taking ownership and blame their guilt on others. But yet if you go to websites for hunts in those non-tipping culture countries or visit them at a show, they will quickly and at times boldly point out that tips are not included!

Not judging anyone because I really do not give a damn about what anyone does or does not do, and others decisions have never influenced my own. But in the end, man up and take ownership of your decisions.

Life is short so make every effort to enjoy it and don't miss an opportunity to share that joy with others if it is within the length of your cable tow.

Good hunting and safe travels..................Larry

+1 . . . your Texas roots still show.

Hi Mike,

I know you're not "entirely" serious but good manners and common courtesy aren't values reserved strictly to Texans.

Even though Naki won't share a campfire with me, I strongly agree with the post you quoted and also act and tip in a traditional and respectful manner.

My point on this entire subject is, why not just back down the entire projected cost of the Safari and include the whole, all-in and traditional cost of the experience?

Just because a 20K buffalo hunt is your "hard" number doesn't mean you are entitled to one. Plan a trip where you can get a bunch of shooting in, pay all required fee's and have some left over for the "discretional items" such as tips.

Spot on.

The elitists are out of line in calling others "cheap" etc.

THAT is the issue.

BTW Tipping is not the sole reflection one's values or sense of fairness, respect generosity etc.

For example - Trump may be a big tipper on occasion but he has also cheated many contractors out of their honest works / just reward. Millions $$$$$.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
First off I am not a Socialist by any means.

It does not personally bother me how much a person chooses to tip, but as can be seen from some comments that have been made, some folks either feel or believe that the whole "Tipping" process has gotten to be an issue that is evidently causing concern.

As far as I am concerned, and it is how I operate, I totally agree with this sentiment, " Give what you can and give from your heart."

Each person is going to or should tip according to their own personal beliefs and not concern themselves with the opinions/actions of others, but because there are no written rules concerning tipping, merely suggestions from others.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

Just because a 20K buffalo hunt is your "hard" number doesn't mean you are entitled to one. Plan a trip where you can get a bunch of shooting in, pay all required fee's and have some left over for the "discretional items" such as tips.

Exactly. For example, forego a trophy and use the trophy fee you saved to pay a tip. I think the problem is that some want to selfishly plan the entire trip around them and if that means nothing is left for tips so be it. Stated another way, given a choice of spending a dollar on themselves or having a dollar to share with the staff as a tip for outstanding service, they prefer to stiff the staff.

Mike

There you go again.

If the outfitter is charging 300% of daily rate for a premium hunt, is he not stiffing his staff on wages by not paying the appropriate wage & then eye gouging the client to fork out more?

You are so stuck in your own little world that you are refusing to look at other perspectives.

I have said this a hundred times - here in NZ we pay a living wage & so we do not tip. We look down on guides here who expect tips!

I do not look down on the African camp staff. The issue is the outfitter & PH.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I disagree with you on this sir. Your view is only relevant to Americans. That is the issue raised by many - that the PHs use the American practice to extort tips from other clients.

A working class guy like a teacher or a middle level manager may do a safari and spend $15k to $20k door to door (say buffalo & some PG). I planned exactly such a trip and I know how carefully I had to plan every $. There is no way I could afford $2k on tips.

Why should I even have to pay $1k on tips?

Yes, I know that NZ does not have a tipping culture but India has. But then I am happy to follow the Indian model and tip 30 cents - which is Rs20!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I think this thread has a distinct dichotomy of clientele . . .

Yep, cheap and not cheap.

Spare me the lecture about someone who has the money to go on safari being unable to tip because it is a stretch for them. Rings a little hollow in my view.

You're a cheap bastard. Don't go if you can't afford to tip.

quote:

You're a cheap bastard. Don't go if you can't afford to tip.

And THERE IT IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you can not, will not tip, Do Not Go!

If you CAN NOT AFFORD to tip at the EXACT SAME LEVEL as others, DO NOT GO!!!!!!

In this day and time, HUNTING WORLDWIDE is in trouble. Now we have individuals OPENLY telling people that if they can not afford to tip at a certain level, they should not even go!!!!!!!!

Yes Sir, that is the way to keep hunting a viable undertaking, tell folks that if they can't or won't tip at the same level as someone else, they have no business booking a hunt.

"For example, forego a trophy and use the trophy fee you saved to pay a tip."

That's exactly what I did.

At the very end of a successful and enjoyable trip where the outfitter provided and produced in good-faith.
I had taken most of the game I was hunting.
Second or third last day we bumped two lions, a mail and a female.
The male was carrying a snare, dragging behind him and was particularly pissed off with human presence. This was reported to the relevant authorities who deemed it an animal to be removed. The outfitter offered that lion along with an extension to my trip at an incredible price. That price was ALL of the money I had left and chose instead to pass on the offer (yeh, I know, I know) and spend that money on tips to the staff who bent over backwards to make my stay comfortable, successful and memorable. And YES, I do not have a lion !

Your mileage may vary.

Paul, that's your choice, but it's not commendable
Over a beer , I'd tell you you're dumb ass
It is what it is this tip thingy
Sad part is when voluntary tip turns into some guilt shit
Really?
For Pete's sake, what's wrong with us?

quote:

Sad part is when voluntary tip turns into some guilt shit
Really?
For Pete's sake, what's wrong with us?

That is what the whole issue is about Milan. Instead of allowing hunters to decide for themselves, much like America's present political situation, some folks want to make that decision for everyone else.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Sad part is when voluntary tip turns into some guilt shit
Really?
For Pete's sake, what's wrong with us?

That is what the whole issue is about Milan. Instead of allowing hunters to decide for themselves, much like America's present political situation, some folks want to make that decision for everyone else.

Seriously, you simply cannot be that obtuse, you must be faking it.

What virtually everyone has said is, tip or don't tip, that's your prerogative. But don't bellyache and complain about it if not tipping makes you feel like a heel. And please, do not insult our intelligence by making claims like someone going on a $20K safari does not give $2K in tips because they cannot afford to. If you do not want to tip, be a man about it and own that decision and quit grumbling about it.

It has NOTHING to do with TIPPING or NOT TIPPING, it is the AMOUNT of the tips that is in contention!!!!!!!!!!

Go back, and actually READ, do not assume. People are simply wanting to decide for themselves HOW MUCH they should allocate for tips!

Maybe YOU are able to hand out $5000.00 in tips on a hunt, but the next hunter may only be able to afford $3000.00 for tips.

Are you maintaining that anyone that cannot afford the amount of tips you can, should NOT go on a Safari?

I got a detailed message from one of our members who is a PH operating in several countries.

I am posting this from my phone at the airport and will post the details once I get to my destination.

He raised some interesting points.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Paul, that's your choice, but it's not commendable
Over a beer , I'd tell you you're dumb ass
It is what it is this tip thingy
Sad part is when voluntary tip turns into some guilt shit
Really?
For Pete's sake, what's wrong with us?

Yes well you may be right about me being a dumb ass by passing on the offer of the Lion and choosing to use my remaining funds to tip with but it was MY choice, MY money.
I want to make it clear that the outfitter at the time indicated that my chosen option to use my remaining money for tips instead of hunting the Lion was not expected and that he was more than happy to extend my hunt for the Lion and do without me tipping at the end.
I still chose to tip those that catered for my hunting, safety, food and comfort.

Another point i'd like to make is that at no time was a level, or amount, or percentage of the value of the hunt, in regards to tipping discussed. It was purely optional.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Paul, that's your choice, but it's not commendable
Over a beer , I'd tell you you're dumb ass
It is what it is this tip thingy
Sad part is when voluntary tip turns into some guilt shit
Really?
For Pete's sake, what's wrong with us?

Yes well you may be right about me being a dumb ass by passing on the offer of the Lion and choosing to use my remaining funds to tip with but it was MY choice, MY money.
I want to make it clear that the outfitter at the time indicated that my chosen option to use my remaining money for tips instead of hunting the Lion was not expected and that he was more than happy to extend my hunt for the Lion and do without me tipping at the end.
I still chose to tip those that catered for my hunting, safety, food and comfort.

Another point i'd like to make is that at no time was a level, or amount, or percentage of the value of the hunt, in regards to tipping discussed. It was purely optional.

I don't think you're a dumbass, it's the decent thing to do. The guys who don't want to tip are probably the same guys who want to go kill a bunch of stuff and then take a picture and leave it lay because they're too cheap to ship anything home.

[/QUOTE]Stated another way, given a choice of spending a dollar on themselves or having a dollar to share with the staff as a tip for outstanding service, they prefer to stiff the staff.[/QUOTE]

Tantamount to being a class cheapskate!

quote:

If the outfitter is charging 300% of daily rate for a premium hunt, is he not stiffing his staff on wages by not paying the appropriate wage & then eye gouging the client to fork out more?

An African hunt cannot be compared to a "one man band" scenario to be found in NZ, Australia, New Mexico or Alaska.

Then there are:

1. African hunting scenarios which are made up of properties such as game farms which can provide both hunting and photographic adventures or other large tracts of privately owned land which accommodate both game and domestic animals.

Costs to run a hunting operation on these are greatly reduced due to logistics and diverse sources of income, hence very reduced daily rates compared to most other African hunting-only destinations.

2. Typically wild and virtually uninhabited areas in the middle of nowhere, a logistical nightmare to access, camps which have to be erected/dismantled at every start/end of the hunting season, camp staff required to run these camps who can number anywhere between 10/15 and more for larger setups.

Compared to SA and privately owned operations, this type of scenario costs serious money hence the difference in daily rates and it should be blindingly obvious that daily rates will be higher.

SA for example is definitely lower in daily rates, everyone is happy and there are no complaints on trophy fees which are applied. Some, if not most, are mind-boggling figures but because the daily rate is low it was a cracking deal.
Would it not be the question of one being subsidized by the other?

The bottom line being a hunt in Africa is not accessible to anyone and everyone. If you have the means the world is your oyster.

Fulvio

You are full of BS.

You are not reading the post properly.

I am talking about marginal costs in the same conservancy or hunting block or even the same camp.

You cannot justify a 300% increase in rates and then claim that staff depend on tips!

CHC, I am surprised at how much in agreement we are!

Naki,

The BS is on you as you haven't the foggiest on what is required, the kind of investment and daily running costs it takes to outfit and maintain a hunting operation consisting in 4/5 client tents.

Try keeping in mind that clients do NOT fully occupy a camp for each and every hunting day.

Some of the larger concessions can accommodate 2 such camps.

Once done and dusted, the margins are not as high as you make them out to be and its only through volume that breaks are made and certainly not from "stiffing workers on their wages" - what a load of hogwash but what can one expect from a committed socialist or should all hunting activities be handed over to the "people"?

On a side note, this proved to be a miserable failure in TZ - so much for "power to the people" concept.

Back to tipping:

YOU and others like you ARE UNDER NO OBLIGATION OR THREAT if you do not tip and why criticize those who do - are you or CH entitled to tell people how to spend their wealth?.

You may as well tell them not to purchase private jets or fancy cars and wear $2000 suits and any other forms of anti-socialist extravaganza!

quote:

are you or CH entitled to tell people how to

Wait a minute, Do Not include me in that comment!

Personally I DO NOT care how anyone spends their money, it is THEIR BUSINESS, End Of Story!!!

I am just expressing my thoughts on an issue about tipping others have raised, that being, the effect on the entire "Tipping" culture, especially when someone raises the bar and is either more generous or simply has more money and goes a little overboard.

Could it be possible that some of those that tip at the higher end of the scale are merely doing so as a form of a contest to gain some form of bragging rights.

I simply view it from the standpoint that hunters/hunting have enough problems as it is, why go out of the way to find/create new ones.

Fun and interesting string of posts.

I have been on a number of trips. I tip when appropriate and for good to great service.

I get great pleasure in tipping the local staff, especially the kitchen staff. As to tipping the PH, I enjoy that too.

Further, I have yet to see a "rich" PH. At the end of PH career, most of the guys have a worn out Landcruiser, a bunch of scars and a gun that rattles when the bolt is moved....

I tip.. I enjoy it and get great pleasure from it.

I budget for it and usually exceed the budget. On my last trip to Ethiopia, I left bigger tips than normal and gifts. I did not have the cash for the PH. I mailed a check when I got home....

As to Milan, he is a good guy and knows what he speaks of... So listen.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

are you or CH entitled to tell people how to

Wait a minute, Do Not include me in that comment!

Personally I DO NOT care how anyone spends their money, it is THEIR BUSINESS, End Of Story!!!

I am just expressing my thoughts on an issue about tipping others have raised, that being, the effect on the entire "Tipping" culture, especially when someone raises the bar and is either more generous or simply has more money and goes a little overboard.

Could it be possible that some of those that tip at the higher end of the scale are merely doing so as a form of a contest to gain some form of bragging rights.

I simply view it from the standpoint that hunters/hunting have enough problems as it is, why go out of the way to find/create new ones.

So what if they want to be braggarts and raise the bar and as you don't care how they spend their money ("Personally I DO NOT care how anyone spends their money, it is THEIR BUSINESS, End Of Story!!!") then why all the hot wind? - it doesn't mean you have to follow suit!

Same applies to the SCI Awards, Top Ten, etc. its all about money and "mine is bigger than yours", and who gives a shit? - the greater percentage of hunters, SCI notwithstanding, still hunt without having to participate.

Unfortunately its people like yourself and a handful of others with Naki leading the charge on wages and excessive profit margins, who are bent on creating a shit storm over something that doesn't concern them.

Here are a few points raised by one of our members who is a PH operating in more than one country.

1. Tips make up at least 33% of the income of PHs.

2. Recommended tips for PH $100/day or 10% of the total daily rates.

3. Recommended tips for camp staff - 4 to 7 - $75-100 per day.

4. Same for the hunt crew.

5. Tips are absolutely vital factors in making sure PHs stay employed - a 50% drop in PH is sighted as a result if no tips are given.

Apparently PHs get between $180-300 pay per day.

PH work anywhere from 4-7 months a year.


The above basically what our member informed me of.

Now, I like to throw a few points for discussion, taking the above into consideration.

Any profession that depends on a third of its income from voluntary tips is not going to last very long.

I know a number of PHs who actually do have other jobs when not hunting.

Same goes for camp staff.

Another PH informed me that he does not like clients giving tips directly to certain members of staff - and leaving the rest without a tip.

So your basically proposing that for a 10-day hunt you spend another $3000.00 in tips?

Seems excessive to me, and goes totally outside the bounds of what a "tip" was originally meant to be - an extra gratuity for personalized service that is exemplary.

Perhaps camp staff, trackers, and PHs should go on strike for better wages??

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Tips make up at least 33% of the income of PHs.

Great! If a PH got 100% of their income from tips, that would be even better. Talk about incentive compensation and aligned incentives . . . that's about as good as it gets. Sort of like packages that offer lower daily rates and higher trophy fees . . . what's not to like about structures that better align the interests of the PH and client.

quote:

Now, I like to throw a few points for discussion, taking the above into consideration.

Any profession that depends on a third of its income from voluntary tips is not going to last very long.

I know a number of PHs who actually do have other jobs when not hunting.

On my two trips to RSA I had 4 different PHs. 3 of the 4 all had second jobs. The 4th's wife had a photographic safari camp.

In the post to Saeed by a PH member is really what this thread is about. When you are handed a list or otherwise informed of "recommended" tips, that is not a tip but rather an assessment to your safari costs. This recommendation really says what is expected irregardless of the service provided.

quote:

Unfortunately its people like yourself and a handful of others with Naki leading the charge on wages and excessive profit margins, who are bent on creating a shit storm over something that doesn't concern them.

First off Sir. This IS an OPEN FORUM and everyone/anyone is entitled to THEIR opinion!!!!

What you cannot seem to wrap your mind around is that All I am saying, is will the concept of hunters trying to out do each other going to result in a NEGATIVE effect, overall with the safari industry.

If you do not think it will that is your PREROGATIVE, I nor anyone else is REQUIRED to share YOUR beliefs, No One is REQUIRED to share mine, but BOTH of us and Naki and whoever else has an opinion has been given a platform to express those opinions by Saeed!!!

I am not interested in wages or Profit margins, my concern rests with concepts that have the potential to have a negative impact on hunting, anywhere!

You're focusing on what you "THINK" I am saying, and you are WRONG!

How long will only those that can tip excessively, keep the Safari industry going? Ever thought about that?

When will the expected "$3000.00" to cover tips, change to "$5000.00"?? How will that affect hunters wanting to go on their first or maybe only Safari, or is it going to be a situation where that if a person cannot afford that level of $$$$$ for tips, they should not even think of going on a Safari?????

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Here are a few points raised by one of our members who is a PH operating in more than one country.

1. Tips make up at least 33% of the income of PHs.

2. Recommended tips for PH $100/day or 10% of the total daily rates.

3. Recommended tips for camp staff - 4 to 7 - $75-100 per day.

4. Same for the hunt crew.

5. Tips are absolutely vital factors in making sure PHs stay employed - a 50% drop in PH is sighted as a result if no tips are given.

Apparently PHs get between $180-300 pay per day.

PH work anywhere from 4-7 months a year.


The above basically what our member informed me of.

Now, I like to throw a few points for discussion, taking the above into consideration.

Any profession that depends on a third of its income from voluntary tips is not going to last very long.

I know a number of PHs who actually do have other jobs when not hunting.

Same goes for camp staff.

Another PH informed me that he does not like clients giving tips directly to certain members of staff - and leaving the rest without a tip.

Very informative.

I think the daily number of $180-$300 a day is for dg. Also does it include the ph vechile costs?

I think tips are closer to 50 percent of ph and tracker income.

If you want to really see where your safari costs go - see the salary and operating budgets for government agencies. I have heard some operating budget numbers for zim national parks and the numbers are crazy. This is on the books salary and operating budget.

Mike

Crazy,

So what is an "EXCESSIVE" tip? You are not required for the 100th time to leave anything and if you do the amount is strictly up to you. There is a customary normal range and every safari newbie that I book wants to know what is customary. Nobody in the time I've been in the business has bitched about leaving a tip. They want to tip, tip at a reasonable level and work it into their overall budget. Actually my clients often tip above my recommendation because they WANT TOO.

Mark

So what this really comes down to is some poeple are worried that a rich guy was in camp just before they arrived and left a huge tip... and the modest tip that they budgeted for is now going to seem paltry? If so, that is also a slap in the face to your PH...I'm sure he understands the concept that some can afford to tip more and the amount isn't always indicative of his performance.

Do you have those same fears when you take your wife to a nice dinner? Maybe counseling will help your inferiority complex....seek help.

I have always wanted to tip for good service. When I first started I didn't know what was fair or reasonable. I have a handle on that now after 11 safaris and am comfortable that my tips are reasonable. I consider myself a good and reasonable tipper but not excessive. I have never tried to compete with the wealthy, they can afford to be more generous than me.
I have left several safaris owing money to the operator, which I would wire when I got home, but have always held back from $1K to $2K for tips which I enjoy giving out in person and individually. I consider tipping to be part of the cost of any hunt or fishing trip and always plan for it.
I just got back from a vacation with the family to Australia and Bali, Indonesia which are both non-tipping cultures. I tipped anyway, because I like to. That is just me.

quote:

So what is an "EXCESSIVE" tip?

You know more about it than I do, so what in YOUR opinion would be "Excessive"?

To me, if the PH made a recommendation of $3000.00 to be divided among the camp staff, and everyone stayed at that level, there should not be a potential for problems.

Now say a couple of High Rollers come in, back to back on hunts, and they dole out Double that to everyone. How easy is it going to be to convince the camp staff that not everyone can afford what the last two clients did.

I am not against tipping, I am just pointing out the possibilities of things getting out of hand to the point that the amount of money recommended for tips, becomes the deciding factor for a person wanting to do a Safari.

Not real sure what is so hard to understand about that.

Crazy,

There is no such thing as an "EXCESSIVE tip. People can give what they please. If I was very wealthy and had just had an incredibly successful safari I would probably tip handsomely. It's my prerogative. It doesn't matter what someone else left for a tip. Do what suits you. It's not your concern to be worried about the camp staff's reaction. If they don't understand the difference between a moderate tip and a huge one it's the PH's and camp manager's job to sort it out if there is an issue and not yours.

Mark

Thank You for your response, but there is still a failure to communicate or understand what is being communicated.

I am merely commenting on the concerns others mentioned about tipping becoming a deciding factor on whether to book a particular hunt or any hunt in Africa.

I can understand their concerns. I am not against tipping, nor do I care how much anyone wants to tip, but No One should be held to a "Certain Standard" by other hunters or camp staff.

If a person chooses not to tip, that is their business. I do not agree with it, but I also don't agree with a few hunters that can afford to overtip, doing something that results in making things harder on hunters that may not/do not have access to the same type funds.

I'm hoping that a $3K suggested tip is for a hunt in the $20K or more range....
I work hard and shopped harder, for multiple $10Kish buff only hunts and three grand budgeted for tips is not even a consideration.
I'm a cheap date in camp, pull my weight and don't expect to be tucked in at night and agree that if all goes reasonably well, a tip is appropriate.
$100 per day, on a 7 day hunt, for the PH and another $100 daily to get whacked up among the staff, by the PH, is what fits for me. Seemed to have been genuinely appreciated by all.
Don't give a shit what the guy before or after me does.

That is my position as well.

I never said that I do not tip when I travel.

In fact my spreadsheet shows this exact info when I planned my trip (cancelled) a few years ago.

Instead of keeping it simple like this, the issue get clouded and then the elitist start calling names and claim they are somehow superior to the guys who are not as well off.

quote:

Originally posted by doubleboy:
I'm hoping that a $3K suggested tip is for a hunt in the $20K or more range....
I work hard and shopped harder, for multiple $10Kish buff only hunts and three grand budgeted for tips is not even a consideration.
I'm a cheap date in camp, pull my weight and don't expect to be tucked in at night and agree that if all goes reasonably well, a tip is appropriate.
$100 per day, on a 7 day hunt, for the PH and another $100 daily to get whacked up among the staff, by the PH, is what fits for me. Seemed to have been genuinely appreciated by all.
Don't give a shit what the guy before or after me does.

And that is as it should be, the CLIENT needs to be the one making the decision, concerning how much they can afford and who does or doesn't deserve a tip.

The concept of "Blanket Tips" and the possibility/probability of them escalating is what concerns some folks.

There is plenty of information on this thread that will give one info on what to tip on a African hunt.

No one should be expected to match a previous client. Read steve arhenberg article the client. Budget to tip the norm at a minimum. If someone expects you to match some high roller they should chip in maybe even pay for a few of your trophies.

Ask your ph and he will guide you. If you don't trust your ph judgement at the end of the hunt on tipping you most likely have had far more serious issues than tipping already.

In Africa especially zim try to leave as much behind as possible in terms of gear. I don't mean your rifle or $2k Swarovski binos. But shoes, socks, medicine, toiletries, clothes - camp staff appreciate that stuff and you can buy it all back at academy.

Also in zim every time I tip I think I have cheated uncle bob a bit.

Mike

Thank You.