quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I would dearly love to see in my contract that tips are not required as the staff has been paid a substantially above average salary.

I would still leave a tip to let them know I was happy, if I was, but it would be a gesture thing instead of approaching 10% daily rate... Having to bring thousands of dollars in cash just for tipping is for the birds.

quote:

Never seen Daily rate includes tips

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I would dearly love to see in my contract that tips are not required as the staff has been paid a substantially above average salary.

I would still leave a tip to let them know I was happy, if I was, but it would be a gesture thing instead of approaching 10% daily rate... Having to bring thousands of dollars in cash just for tipping is for the birds.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:
Allow me to try and shed some light on the debate on hand:
First and foremost tipping in the hunting industry in particular is not entirely related to the wild accusations that these are a direct result of an outfitter meting out poor wages to his crew – this is not true when one considers they (crew) are being fully catered for in camp at the expense of the outfitter and their wages are actually money in the pocket and quite possibly, tax-free.
Confusion continuously reigns when classifying the PH and Outfitter as being one and the same; this is not the case as the outfitter is the owner of the business and the PH is basically an employee but in some cases, the owner/outfitter doubles as a PH.
One should not however discount the existence of the rogue and dishonest outfitter who does indeed skim his people but these individuals are in the minority and the rest should not be made to pay for their sins.
As far as TZ is concerned, we have an established 6 month long hunting season which in reality, due to post and pre-weather factors, is actually 4 to 5 months of real hunting time depending on the location of the hunting concessions. It should also be borne in mind that there is no truth in taking for granted that the entire season is fully booked with multiple or back-to-back safaris as one might envisage. Safaris can only be booked and sold according to quota availability – period.
It has to be evidenced that most of the workforce, PH included, could be considered as freelance or temporary employees, in that the majority of the African hunting destinations, with South Africa and Namibia being probable exclusions, hunting is a seasonal occupation and as such, their livelihood is only guaranteed by the number of days actually worked in these hunting camps.
As an example, the average wages for a PH working in Tanzania and depending on the outfitter’s financial standing, can vary from $180 to $400 per day, the latter corresponding to the cup containing the Holy Grail (one undisclosed outfitter) and is only paid for the contracted hunting days and not on a monthly basis as would be the case for the camp staff who would be pulling $85 to $150 per month in line with and above the government imposed minimum wage scale.
The majority of reputably known PHs operating in Tanzania are from beyond our borders and are also therefore subject to local licensing and work-status regulations which come at a price, mostly at their own expense.
The average total hunting time for a PH working in TZ on a well booked season would rarely exceed 80 days and anything in excess would be the icing on the cake but which would nevertheless unlikely make him a millionaire during his hunting career.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

Most people try to get as much as they can and try harder for more.

Some will try and take everything you have and not be bothered that you are just an average guy like them but with a BIG passion for hunting Africa paying international rates.

Please elaborate on this . . . how exactly do they "try to get as much as they can" and "try to take everything you have"? Have you been physically threatened? Held hostage? Perhaps it is just a bit of hyperbole.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:

quote:

I cannot trust most people to tell me honestly what the fair tip is. Yes i know that there are exceptions.

Most people try to get as much as they can and try harder for more.

Some will try and take everything you have and not be bothered that you are just an average guy like them but with a BIG passion for hunting Africa paying international rates.

Naki,

I'd be very interested also in how you came to these conclusions. Also I feel your extreme angst that you described over whether your tip would be perceived as adequate is unwarranted.

Mark

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Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Except you're not in Australia or New Zealand...you're in Africa where tipping after a safari is customary. Where you are is what matters, not where you're from.

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Comments like yours tempt me to point out that the world has over 7 billion people & not just 330 million!

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Comments like yours tempt me to point out that the world has over 7 billion people & not just 330 million!

Comments like yours tempt me to point out that you're using where you are from as an excuse to be cheap.

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Originally posted by COYOTE HUNTER:
"Comments like yours tempt me to point out that you're using where you are from as an excuse to be cheap."

That's pretty bold.
Do you know anyone from NZ on a personal level?Do you understand their culture? How they live and were raised?
Never really liked name calling as a way of discussing a topic.


One of the best hunting experiences I have had was our trip to NZ. The outfitter told us upfront that there was no tipping expected.
We knew exactly what was expected of us and he knew exactly what we expected from him.

I think most people would agree that the tipping situation on safaris has gotten out of hand. If you go on a 10 day buffalo hunt you are expected to have $2-$3000 in cash for tips?
That is my definition of ridiculous.
There is better value in other hunting and fishing trips for me.
To each his own.

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One of the best hunting experiences I have had was our trip to NZ. The outfitter told us upfront that there was no tipping expected.
We knew exactly what was expected of us and he knew exactly what we expected from him.

quote:

Originally posted by COYOTE HUNTER:
"Comments like yours tempt me to point out that you're using where you are from as an excuse to be cheap."

That's pretty bold.
Do you know anyone from NZ on a personal level?Do you understand their culture? How they live and were raised?
Never really liked name calling as a way of discussing a topic.


One of the best hunting experiences I have had was our trip to NZ. The outfitter told us upfront that there was no tipping expected.
We knew exactly what was expected of us and he knew exactly what we expected from him.

I think most people would agree that the tipping situation on safaris has gotten out of hand. If you go on a 10 day buffalo hunt you are expected to have $2-$3000 in cash for tips?
That is my definition of ridiculous.
There is better value in other hunting and fishing trips for me.
To each his own.

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kinda goes to my point..No? You did what was expected in the country you were in.

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I hope you don't think I'm being critical of anyone who chooses to partake in the experience. As I said, to each is own. Some find it incredibly satisfying.

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Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Mark

My reactions are very typical of most Kiwis and probably most Aussies as we do not have a tipping culture.

This is nothing against hunting guides per se.

I have the same attitude towards hospitality staff sometimes when traveling.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:

quote:

I cannot trust most people to tell me honestly what the fair tip is. Yes i know that there are exceptions.

Most people try to get as much as they can and try harder for more.

Some will try and take everything you have and not be bothered that you are just an average guy like them but with a BIG passion for hunting Africa paying international rates.

Naki,

I'd be very interested also in how you came to these conclusions. Also I feel your extreme angst that you described over whether your tip would be perceived as adequate is unwarranted.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
It is good to give a big tip when you feel you got a good hunt for the money you paid.It is not a good feeling when you are expected to tip big when you feel that you over paid for your hunt.When there is no game in the area and you are given canned food to eat then you might feel that you are a fool to tip.When do we feel that we got a good price for our hunt? Probably never or rarely but we want to show that we are good sports even if we got ripped off.

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I did mental calculations and the overhead in Safari camps in Africa is simply beyond my comprehension

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Shake Shack Founder - Tipping is 'one of the biggest hoaxes pulled on an entire culture'.


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/...-hoax-142228863.html


Yep

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Mark

My reactions are very typical of most Kiwis and probably most Aussies as we do not have a tipping culture.

This is nothing against hunting guides per se.

I have the same attitude towards hospitality staff sometimes when traveling.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:

quote:

I cannot trust most people to tell me honestly what the fair tip is. Yes i know that there are exceptions.

Most people try to get as much as they can and try harder for more.

Some will try and take everything you have and not be bothered that you are just an average guy like them but with a BIG passion for hunting Africa paying international rates.

Naki,

I'd be very interested also in how you came to these conclusions. Also I feel your extreme angst that you described over whether your tip would be perceived as adequate is unwarranted.

Mark

Naki,

We're right back where we were on like page 5 or 6 of this. I have to come to the same conclusion; If the ENTIRE cost of a safari you are looking at, to include air, daily rates, TF's tips, dipping & packing, shipping and any taxidermy exceeds your budget, find something that does fit your budget.

I think the conclusion here is that tipping is expected and a component that must be mentally included in your budget.

Also, you state "Most Kiwis," If I recall correctly, you aren't a Kiwi?

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Steve

I am a Kiwi. I have lived here for 25 years.

Others here treat me like a Kiwi and expect me to respond like one. I have raised my Kids as Kiwis.

I am not going to respond to your insinuations.

You certainly are showing your old traits that were were obvious under your old name!

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Mark

My reactions are very typical of most Kiwis and probably most Aussies as we do not have a tipping culture.

This is nothing against hunting guides per se.

I have the same attitude towards hospitality staff sometimes when traveling.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:

quote:

I cannot trust most people to tell me honestly what the fair tip is. Yes i know that there are exceptions.

Most people try to get as much as they can and try harder for more.

Some will try and take everything you have and not be bothered that you are just an average guy like them but with a BIG passion for hunting Africa paying international rates.

Naki,

I'd be very interested also in how you came to these conclusions. Also I feel your extreme angst that you described over whether your tip would be perceived as adequate is unwarranted.

Mark

Naki,

We're right back where we were on like page 5 or 6 of this. I have to come to the same conclusion; If the ENTIRE cost of a safari you are looking at, to include air, daily rates, TF's tips, dipping & packing, shipping and any taxidermy exceeds your budget, find something that does fit your budget.

I think the conclusion here is that tipping is expected and a component that must be mentally included in your budget.

Also, you state "Most Kiwis," If I recall correctly, you aren't a Kiwi?

quote:

I am a Kiwi. I have lived here for 25 years.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

I am a Kiwi. I have lived here for 25 years.

Having lived in any country for 25 years or more does not signify that a person is a citizen, thus holding that country's nationality.

Citizenship laws vary from one country to another; some require a minimum permanent residence of 1 year, others more than a year and based on these required periods of residence, will only qualify that person to the privilege of applying for citizenship but not necessarily entitle him/her the right to be granted the same.

This process is called naturalization.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

Also, you state "Most Kiwis," If I recall correctly, you aren't a Kiwi?

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
So you are an expert on my nationality status are you?

OK - I have lived in NZ for 25 years and have been a citizen for 22 years!

I also have a B1 VISA that allows me to live and work in US for another 12 years if I want to.

Back to the topic on Tips, I bet Donald Trump cares so much for the common worker that he will introduce $25 minimum wage, make tips illegal and bring back jobs to the US!

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

I am a Kiwi. I have lived here for 25 years.

Having lived in any country for 25 years or more does not signify that a person is a citizen, thus holding that country's nationality.

Citizenship laws vary from one country to another; some require a minimum permanent residence of 1 year, others more than a year and based on these required periods of residence, will only qualify that person to the privilege of applying for citizenship but not necessarily entitle him/her the right to be granted the same.

This process is called naturalization.