quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Mike,

Actually not. It goes like this. First I tell them tips are not compulsory and/or they can leave whatever they want. If they want to know what I think is reasonable and most people do I'll give them a figure. I don't take into consideration what a particular safari operation thinks is reasonable/expected whatever you want to call it.

Mark

I can vouch for the above...just had this convo with Mark a few days ago and I never asked about an amount and he never suggested anything. The convo was more about how it's broken down. PH, tracker, staff etc.

If you told the outfitter upfront that you weren't into tipping, and if needed, adjust the day rate accordingly, would they? And by how much?

quote:

Originally posted by Dead Eye:
If you told the outfitter upfront that you weren't into tipping, and if needed, adjust the day rate accordingly, would they? And by how much?

I asked a PH this last year and a couple of others since. Tips can't be added into the daily rate as it becomes a paperwork nightmare for declaring income, etc., most so for the low-salaried workers.
Cal

Ron,

Not exactly what you asked but what I could do as an agent would be to add whatever tip amount you chose on your final invoice. I could then transfer it to the operator. This also would eliminate carrying cash for tips as well as any awkwardness around the tipping process.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Dead Eye:
If you told the outfitter upfront that you weren't into tipping, and if needed, adjust the day rate accordingly, would they? And by how much?

Why in the heck would anyone (a hunter) want do that . . . convert the tip into a fixed charge and remove the discretion of paying a tip for good service? Let's get rid of daily rates and make everything a tip. The closer we get to linking pay and performance the better in my view.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Dead Eye:
If you told the outfitter upfront that you weren't into tipping, and if needed, adjust the day rate accordingly, would they? And by how much?

Why in the heck would anyone (a hunter) want do that . . . convert the tip into a fixed charge and remove the discretion of paying a tip for good service? Let's get rid of daily rates and make everything a tip. The closer we get to linking pay and performance the better in my view.

So how much performance do you expect at $1k/d?

In your example, that daily rate of $1,000/day is fixed. If you hunt ten hours a day, the rate is $1,000/day, if you hunt two hours a day, the rate is $1,000/day. If you have shot opportunities on five animals a day, the rate is $1,000/day, if you do not see a damn thing day after day, the rate is $1,000/day. In the end the performance comes down to the individual commitment of the PH in that situation.

Instead of it being a daily rate of $1,000/day, what if the PH was working just for tips? Do you think it might impact their performance and level of effort? I do. I will take pay for performance any day over fixed compensation regardless of performance.

I get what your saying but trophy fees take into account the "pay for performance" aspect as well.

These guys are professionals. If they dogfuck on your safari they have a lot more to lose than just your tip.

Trophy fees in many (most?) cases go to folks other than the outfitters.

I didn't know that the outfitters received no part of the charged trophy fee. Thanks for clearing that up.

What protects the concession owner/holder from minimum operating costs and wages to the staff? Which is more often than not..not your PH

quote:

Originally posted by Dead Eye:
I didn't know that the outfitters received no part of the charged trophy fee. Thanks for clearing that up.

I am not sure what Mike has mentioned is strictly true.

I think outfitters do add a markup on the trophy fees.

I might be wrong, if so I hope some of our outfitters here will correct this.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Dead Eye:
I didn't know that the outfitters received no part of the charged trophy fee. Thanks for clearing that up.

I am not sure what Mike has mentioned is strictly true.

I think outfitters do add a markup on the trophy fees.

I might be wrong, if so I hope some of our outfitters here will correct this.

Probably a country specific issue. Virtually positive in Zim the trophy fees go to the government, local councils, etc.

I know for a fact that outfitters do mark up the trophy fee. On one safari I was booked for one trophy buff (among other game) and upon arrival I was told by the ranch manager that "non-trophy" buff and cow buff were on quota at a significantly reduced rate. I was quoted one price by the ranch manager, and after taking the non-trophy bull the PH let me know that one of the safari company principals was very upset that they had not been asked first, and the price went up $500. I didn't want the PH in the middle so I agreed to pay it.

The safari I was referring to above was in Zim.

Trophy fees are always marked up
Just different for each country and region
Nothing wrong with that
Guys gotta make living and I doubt anyone has a problem with that

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Trophy fees are always marked up
Just different for each country and region
Nothing wrong with that
Guys gotta make living and I doubt anyone has a problem with that

Definitely not all trophy fees are paid to government in Zim conservancies and private property areas. There is a mark up and there is nothing wrong with that. Takes a lot to maintain the properties and ecosystems to allow for proper scientific hunting.

Hunters normally dont tip on the vast staff that do anti poaching, property management, game management, community affairs etc

Also none of these African governments - Zim especially - are ignorant on the economics of the safari business. They know all the ins and outs of the hunting business better than any client hunter or booking agent.

Would be interesting if Saeed or Don checks IP address from Zim that check AR. I am pretty sure there are regular check in from Zim government.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Trophy fees are always marked up
Just different for each country and region
Nothing wrong with that
Guys gotta make living and I doubt anyone has a problem with that

Definitely not all trophy fees are paid to government in Zim conservancies and private property areas. There is a mark up and there is nothing wrong with that. Takes a lot to maintain the properties and ecosystems to allow for proper scientific hunting.

Hunters normally dont tip on the vast staff that do anti poaching, property management, game management, community affairs etc

Also none of these African governments - Zim especially - are ignorant on the economics of the safari business. They know all the ins and outs of the hunting business better than any client hunter or booking agent.

Would be interesting if Saeed or Don checks IP address from Zim that check AR. I am pretty sure there are regular check in from Zim government.

Mike

You will be surprised who logs into AR

Mark up on trophy fees is done in every country.

Nothing wrong with that.

Totally different from outfitters and PHs who ask for handouts.

Thanks for confirming what I expected regarding the trophy fees.
It is a relief to see accurate info on this forum. Even if you have to sift through a bit of agenda driven BS.

TZ Trophy fees for example are set by the Wildlife Dept. and strictly speaking, are not supposed to be hiked by outfitters. TZ hunts are conducted on a "shoot first, pay later" principle and the outfitter is bound by regulations to ensure the Govt. receives no less than 40% of the value of allocated quota at season's end.

Unfortunately this malpractice of hiking prices is perpetrated by a few of the unscrupulous ones and should not be entertained by the client as these fees are open knowledge to anyone who wishes to know.

In other African countries there could be different rules, e.g. if the quota has been bought and paid for by the concession owner he would be entitled to a mark up on what is rightfully his and gradually dilute his profit margin towards the end of the season by offering "special deals".

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:
TZ Trophy fees for example are set by the Wildlife Dept. and strictly speaking, are not supposed to be hiked by outfitters. TZ hunts are conducted on a "shoot first, pay later" principle and the outfitter is bound by regulations to ensure the Govt. receives no less than 40% of the value of allocated quota at season's end.

Unfortunately this malpractice of hiking prices is perpetrated by a few of the unscrupulous ones and should not be entertained by the client as these fees are open knowledge to anyone who wishes to know.

In other African countries there could be different rules, e.g. if the quota has been bought and paid for by the concession owner he would be entitled to a mark up on what is rightfully his and gradually dilute his profit margin towards the end of the season by offering "special deals".

Has this always been the case for Tanzania? About 10 years ago the majority of the outfitters had different animal prices.

I had two tracker/skinners on my last PG hunt, one worked his butt off and the other basically goofed off or just sat in the bakkie.
Come time for tipping I gave the hard worker an envelope with 70% of what I had allotted and the lazy one an envelope with 30%.I hope that they compared notes later and the lazy guy learned that hard work does pay off.

quote:

Originally posted by Tracker49:
I had two tracker/skinners on my last PG hunt, one worked his butt off and the other basically goofed off or just sat in the bakkie.
Come time for tipping I gave the hard worker an envelope with 70% of what I had allotted and the lazy one an envelope with 30%.I hope that they compared notes later and the lazy guy learned that hard work does pay off.

Very sad to hear this.

Never had any person on safari who did not work very hard!

Tracker49

My question would be why was the PH not MOTIVATING this guy?

Mark

I have been in the restaurant business since I was 16, 22 years now. I have owned my own restaurant for 8 years, and I have bartended for 16 years. I was also a whitewater rafting guide for 6 summer during college. Most of income over the years has stemmed from tips.

One of the dumbest questions I get asked is when I am bartending: “do I still have to tip you even though you own this place?” Do you have to tip me? No, and I don’t care one way or another. But my answer, that I tell people to their face, is as follows. Have you learned interesting information while you have been sitting here, such as the history of our 156 year old building, about beer wine and spirits, including how they are made, their history, and how they are made? I remember what you and your wife drink, your food peculiarities, what you ate the last time you were here, and I called you a cab when you drank too much so we can all be responsible.

Do you have to tip guides, bartenders, or the lady that brings your breakfast in a crappy diner that you paid $8 for including your coffee? No you don’t. But if you are constantly griping about tipping 10% at a minimum for the luxury of dining out, whitewater rafting, or hunting, you have no clue how hard we work. The flip side of that is our lives are better than your vacation.

Easy there Colin
Tip is simply earned, not expected

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Easy there Colin
Tip is simply earned, not expected

Exactly!


When I get served well, I tip.

May be I tend to over tip too, where it is deserved.

If not, even in establishments that actually add a percentage to the tip, I refuse to pay.

I have had arguments in all sorts of places because they expect a tip, no matter how lousy their service is.

Not on me.

Colin,

I lived in Kentucky for almost a year.

It was a pretty place, and I was blown away by how many absolutely beautiful women live in Kentucky.

Even my wife, who I think is stunning told me she was always surprised by the number of beautiful women in Kentucky.

That being said, I was shocked by the number of waiters who regularly asked if I wanted cash back from my bill. I also had something happen in Kentucky regularly enough that I was shocked. I would pay with a credit card, and the wait staff would plus up their tip to 20-30% of the bill after I left (they stole from me). Several times they gave themselves $20-100 tips on a $30-60 bill.

So I quit paying with credit cards, and I called the establishments where the plussing up of tips happened, and told them about it every time. Sometimes they were receptive, sometimes not. But if it happened we never went back.

Now that I have spent most of my adult life living in Europe and Australia, I hate tipping, and I think that any law that encourages it is stupid. I now pay with cash everytime I eat out in America, and I tip the absolute minimum.

I have also noticed that the millennial wait staff doesn't understand customer service, so I have yet to see a reason to tip any more than 2-5%

As Saeed says, whatever is said about "tip what you feel is right", I think its fair to say that a tip is expected on an african safari.

I'm ok with that, it would be more fun if it wasn't expected, but that boat has sailed.

My frustration is the guessing game of how much is expected. I don't care what it is, I want to know what is expected as I will build it in when comparing my safari options and make a decision with knowledge of all the costs. Just find it annoying to not have it clear.

I'm a member of a fishing club and the guideline for tipping the manager is $10/night - easy, don't have to give it any thought.

Kentucky is chock full of beautiful women. That being said, I repeatedly stated I don’t care if you tip or not. But people who work for tips are free to have their own opinion of your character.

If what Big Wonderful Wyoming said is true - and I have no way of doubting him - I would cancel that payment!

Our banks send you am immediate SMS of your charges, and they say we can refuse to pay anything we have not authorized and they will deal with the charging store or restaurant.

I have had only one fraudulent charge in the past, and the bank refunded it immediately.

What happened to him is just plain robbery, and should never be condoned!

I still would like how they did it.

Because normally one gets a bill with the charges, and a space for tips.

One adds whatever tip he wishes, totals the charges and signed it.

Did they make another charge?

Yes they made another charge.

Generally if I pay with a credit card, the card gets hit a couple days later for the difference of what I sign and what the first number is ran as.

Food total $50 this is what the card is ran for.

Plus tips $10 this gets added to the card a couple days later.

I quit banking with my phone and had problems with it before I left the states, and refuse to do it here in Europe.

The bank generally refunded it. I just called them and they took care of it.

The only place I ever had it happen other than Kentucy was in Portland, Maine.

Either way I am a cash only guy while eating out.

Colin,

My question for you is; is it acceptable for waitstaff/bartenders to ask a customer if they want cash back.

Say if the bill is $33, and I hand them a $40?

Never. My staff is trained to give back all of the change, and if they receive a tip that’s between them, the customer, and the cosmos. It is extremely trashy to ask someone if they want their change back.

I have had a waitress in Switzerland ask me why I was giving her a tip!!

We were in a large group and I paid cash on a ski slope.

She brought me change and left some for her.

She would not take it until I said it was for her and the good service she provided.

A few days later, I was on my own, and restaurant was full.

So I sat in the bar just outside.

She saw me and came over to ask if I wanted to have lunch.

I told her I was going to, but they were full.

She brought me the menu and took my order, bringing it to the bar!

Good service and a generous tip works wonders.

Bad service, which deserves no tips and no repeat customers, deserve to close down.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have had a waitress in Switzerland ask me why I was giving her a tip!!

We were in a large group and I paid cash on a ski slope.

She brought me change and left some for her.

She would not take it until I said it was for her and the good service she provided.

A few days later, I was on my own, and restaurant was full.

So I sat in the bar just outside.

She saw me and came over to ask if I wanted to have lunch.

I told her I was going to, but they were full.

She brought me the menu and took my order, bringing it to the bar!

Good service and a generous tip works wonders.

Bad service, which deserves no tips and no repeat customers, deserve to close down.

I agree completely.

quote:

Originally posted by 10generation:
As Saeed says, whatever is said about "tip what you feel is right", I think its fair to say that a tip is expected on an african safari.

I'm ok with that, it would be more fun if it wasn't expected, but that boat has sailed.

My frustration is the guessing game of how much is expected. I don't care what it is, I want to know what is expected as I will build it in when comparing my safari options and make a decision with knowledge of all the costs. Just find it annoying to not have it clear.

I'm a member of a fishing club and the guideline for tipping the manager is $10/night - easy, don't have to give it any thought.

Exactly what my issue is, not knowing what is acceptable

I remember when tips were 5%.

Then they up to 10, then 15, now they expect 20-25%.

It really is becoming rediculous sometimes.

I would rather everything is included in the price, so I know before hand what I am getting for how much.

One can make up his mind whether that is acceptable or not before he gets involved.

Tips should be a show of appreciation for some who has done a great job, well above what is expected of him.

Not as a right, whether he performs or not.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have had a waitress in Switzerland ask me why I was giving her a tip!!

We were in a large group and I paid cash on a ski slope.

She brought me change and left some for her.

She would not take it until I said it was for her and the good service she provided.

A few days later, I was on my own, and restaurant was full.

So I sat in the bar just outside.

She saw me and came over to ask if I wanted to have lunch.

I told her I was going to, but they were full.

She brought me the menu and took my order, bringing it to the bar!

Good service and a generous tip works wonders.

Bad service, which deserves no tips and no repeat customers, deserve to close down.

Halfway down reading your post I thought oh no this is going to be one of my pet hates with the practice of tipping, where it is seen and used as a means of buying favours or call that for what it is, graft.
I was happy to read the ending where the waitress showed appreciation and kindness by providing you with a meal 'at the bar'. She didn't give you preferential treatment and find you a table that suddenly appeared in a full dining room. The latter is often the impression we get from American movies where money is pressed into someones hand and a table is 'found'. That may be a stereotypical scenario although at least one post I have read on AR is a hunter admitting he likes to tip to get preferential treatment.

Saeed you made my day.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have had a waitress in Switzerland ask me why I was giving her a tip!!

We were in a large group and I paid cash on a ski slope.

She brought me change and left some for her.

She would not take it until I said it was for her and the good service she provided.

A few days later, I was on my own, and restaurant was full.

So I sat in the bar just outside.

She saw me and came over to ask if I wanted to have lunch.

I told her I was going to, but they were full.

She brought me the menu and took my order, bringing it to the bar!

Good service and a generous tip works wonders.

Bad service, which deserves no tips and no repeat customers, deserve to close down.

in most countries in Europe no matter the tip you will get the service you had. at least few years ago ...