If you find tipping offensive or feel that outfitters are abusing the availability of tips for staff, stand by the strength of your convictions . . . and don't tip. It is not rocket science.

Oh Geez. Enough!
Peter

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:

Therefore tipping for us, is not as optional as Buzz would have us believe.

What exactly is not optional about a tip?

Just as in "Safari" which in and of itself is filled with rich tradition & a certain amount of romance, tipping is AND FOREVER WILL BE woven into the fabric of African Safari hunting.

Geez Mike, you sound like a Lawyer.

I think a lot of the hand wringing over tipping is guilt driven. I think many would prefer not to tip or leave a relatively insignificant tip but they feel pressured or guilty for lack of a better term and do not want to risk having anyone talking about them, thinking lesser of them or comparing them to someone else . . . so rather than stand by their principles they tip in a less than magnanimous manner, then complain and bitch about the practice of tipping. Maybe they should just man up and if they find the practice of tipping offensive or abused, just . . . not tip. If you are not going to tip magnanimously and without regrets, just . . . don't tip.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I think a lot of the hand wringing over tipping is guilt driven. I think many would prefer not to tip or leave a relatively insignificant tip but they feel pressured or guilty for lack of a better term and do not want to risk having anyone talking about them, thinking lesser of them or comparing them to someone else . . . so rather than stand by their principles they tip in a less than magnanimous manner, then complain and bitch about the practice of tipping. Maybe they should just man up and if they find the practice of tipping offensive or abused, just . . . not tip. If you are not going to tip magnanimously and without regrets, just . . . don't tip.

Pretty sure that's aimed at me. I'm only pointing out that NOT tipping, isn't really an option. Not tipping would be like shooting a bunch of stuff, taking its picture then leaving it there....Oh, wait.

At some point...like in Mr. Shores example, when there are 15-20 people standing around waiting for a tip, it becomes awkward to say the least. If you don't think so, imagine having the entire restaurant staff standing around your table at the end of the evening smiling and waiting for their tip. You don't tip the kid that carried in the lettuce that morning for your salad, I'm not sure why you would be expected to in Africa and if the waiter/waitress is expected to share tips with the staff behind the scenes then that is their business not mine.

quote:

I'm only pointing out that NOT tipping, isn't really an option.

. . . that is mental box you have climbed into all by yourself, no one put you in that box.

There is another person on AR who has done a lot of hunting in Africa. I have heard it said that when he booked hunts he would tell the outfitter, "I don't walk, I don't talk, and I don't tip." The outfitters were apparently fine with his conditions since they took his money and he did many hunts in Africa. Others just seem to prefer being followers than leaders. Tipping is an option plain and simple.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

I'm only pointing out that NOT tipping, isn't really an option.

. . . that is mental box you have climbed into all by yourself, no one put you in that box.

There is another person on AR who has done a lot of hunting in Africa. I have heard it said that when he booked hunts he would tell the outfitter, "I don't walk, I don't talk, and I don't tip." The outfitters were apparently fine with his conditions since they took his money and he did many hunts in Africa. Others just seem to prefer being followers than leaders. Tipping is an option plain and simple.

I won't even argue that point. But I believe it to be true.

Hell, last year in Tanzania I had a dreadful Safari. The PH and I just were like oil & water. I could not wait to get the hell out of there.

That said, The night before I gathered my thoughts for tipping the staff, I decided to tip the PH what I had planned on prior to even meeting him. The staff all worked hard, the cook busted his ass in a lousy temporary kitchen, the skinners worked on a plank on the ground. The place was poached heavily, the animals all ran from the hunting car. All of that above are not the fault of the PH or the staff. He and I not getting along wasn't his fault or my fault. Just two very different personalities.

I don't have any reason to doubt what Buzz posted, however, I would bet he counts on his tips in his personal budget just as do his PH's and staff.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
At some point...like in Mr. Shores example, when there are 15-20 people standing around waiting for a tip, it becomes awkward to say the least. If you don't think so, imagine having the entire restaurant staff standing around your table at the end of the evening smiling and waiting for their tip. You don't tip the kid that carried in the lettuce that morning for your salad, I'm not sure why you would be expected to in Africa and if the waiter/waitress is expected to share tips with the staff behind the scenes then that is their business not mine.

Just about perfect comparison
Couldn't say it better

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

At some point...like in Mr. Shores example, when there are 15-20 people standing around waiting for a tip, it becomes awkward to say the least. If you don't think so, imagine having the entire restaurant staff standing around your table at the end of the evening smiling and waiting for their tip. You don't tip the kid that carried in the lettuce that morning for your salad, I'm not sure why you would be expected to in Africa and if the waiter/waitress is expected to share tips with the staff behind the scenes then that is their business not mine.

It is not customary or natural in Africa - it is nothing more learned behaviour. American in camp, ring the bell, dog salivates. My suggestion is, learn Spanish. It really throws them off...

quote:

My suggestion is, learn Spanish. It really throws them off...

Now that's an original idea!!!
Peter

Had a message from someone in the business.

Regardless of what some tell you, that tips are an option, if you do not tip, don't show your face in that camp again.

Another point he raised was that Europeans tend to tip very little, some actually non at all.

Some tend to give some money to an individual they get close too during the hunt, and not others.

He did mention that it has become rather ridiculous, by the fact that a list of individuals is presented to the client with with how much is expected.

He refuses to do that, and shares whatever tip is left with the whole camp staff according to their status.

I am glad to see that some members our speaking out about getting value for their money.It is very easy to get bullied into paying all kinds of high costs.It is not for nothing so many industry people hang around this site.It makes it difficult for a client to criticize anything or speak their true experience.Monitered hunting chat. Like a well known poster since banned said years ago here on AR-Don't tip and you will have to watch your back all the way to the airport-if you make it there.I might not agree with that statement but I think you will certainly feel the effects of not tipping.

I guess I do not mind it other than the fact that it is annoying as hell to have to carry all of that cash. I know I give better than average tips in restaurants and the like here in the states. I think I give better than average tips in Africa.

I can only think of one time that I did not leave a tip in Africa and it was for good reason. We stayed at a guest house in the RSA. While it was a very nice place, every single person who worked there from the owners down were flaming homosexuals. Now before you all go jumping on me for making that comment, I could care less about their sexual preference. The problem was that these guys were militant about it. Their were openly flaunting their sexuality in front of us. Having a guy tongue kiss another guy in front of a little kid is a bit much for me.

What really got me was the cook. I remember his name was Leon. Leon prepared these meals that were visually appealing but had almost no calories on them. The meal that was the final straw for me was a dinner one night. We had HALF of a single chicken wing each, a small spoon of white rice and various colorful flowers covering this. F this BS I thought. I told the PH that I wanted minute of his time. I advised that this was simply not enough food especially after being out walking all day. I want him to take me and my kids to this local Portuguese restaurant. He did.

When we left, I left the boys at the guest house not a single cent. I actually heard Leon say, "Where is my tip?" My response was "probably inside your boyfriend." We drove off.

Leon actually bears a striking resemblance to my oldest son's best friend who happens to be very straight.

quote:

I actually heard Leon say, "Where is my tip?" My response was "probably inside your boyfriend." We drove off.

Guys,

As for knowing ahead of time what's "Expected" for a tip so you can figure it into the total cost why not figure into the cost what you're comfortable giving. Look guys you are hiring the safari company to provide a service for you. It's a business deal above all else. You are hiring these folks to take care of you in every way for the duration of your safari and that's wonderful but don't forget there doing exactly the same for every other client. Worrying about how these folks will perceive you after the safari based on your tip is akin to worrying about what the wait staff thought of you on your last nice dinner out.

Mark

"A gentleman knows when and how to tip those who serve him. The unmannered and uncouth do not. Tipping an individual, while not mandatory, should always be done."

A Gentleman's Guide to Tipping

I was once told by a PH in Zim that one fairly famous, black PH tells his clients that they will "give him $1200.00" for his tip.

On my last safari, the recommended tip for the trackers jumped 3 times what I paid in 2003. I had absolutely no problem tipping them that amount (plus a little extra), because of all the hard work they performed on my behalf.

I gave $200.00 to the camp manager and said $100.00 was for her and the rest to be split up among the camp staff that worked for me. The camp manager acted like the $100.00 was way to little to split among the staff. I figured less than 5 people worked directly for me alone (cleaned cabin, fired up hot water, cooked, served meals, skinned buffalo) and $20.00 bucks was a reasonable tip for a 6 day stay.

I guess everyone in a safari camp now expects a "tip" equal to or greater than their weekly salary.

You can go through $2000.00 in tips pretty quickly
nowadays.

For CEOs and the like, a couple thousand does mean ,much, but for the rank and file, that is a lot of money.

I guess on my next safari I will pretend to be German and speak English with a German accent, then there will be no expectation of tips!


BH63

I have become very cynical about tipping culture.

I cannot trust most people to tell me honestly what the fair tip is. Yes i know that there are exceptions.

Most people try to get as much as they can and try harder for more.

Some will try and take everything you have and not be bothered that you are just an average guy like them but with a BIG passion for hunting Africa paying international rates.

What really sickens me is the horrible feeling I have in my gut for days while planning and preparing for the hunt.

On one occasion I planned for 2 years and had a lot of fun planning & preparing every detail. For a $17k trip door to door (including flights), I had the most stress in arriving at a total of $1000 for tips. At the end of it my gut was churning that the expectations were so high that the $1000 total would not be seen as adequate and would not be appreciated.

Now I have decided that since I am a Kiwi and we do not have a tipping culture, I will not plan for tips. If I feel like it, I might give something, but I WILL NOT fret and worry about what is expected.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

Most people try to get as much as they can and try harder for more.

Some will try and take everything you have and not be bothered that you are just an average guy like them but with a BIG passion for hunting Africa paying international rates.

Please elaborate on this . . . how exactly do they "try to get as much as they can" and "try to take everything you have"? Have you been physically threatened? Held hostage? Perhaps it is just a bit of hyperbole.

quote:

On one occasion I planned for 2 years and had a lot of fun planning & preparing every detail. For a $17k trip door to door (including flights), I had the most stress in arriving at a total of $1000 for tips. At the end of it my gut was churning that the expectations were so high that the $1000 total would not be seen as adequate and would not be appreciated

If that's what you budgeted to tip then so be it...you should be at peace with that and who gives a sh*t if "they" don't think it's adequate. Don't let somethin like that ruin your experience.

Over the years that this subject has been batted around, and it is not just an African issue, but has its effects on hunts WorldWide, people don't seem to really look at how things got to the point they are, or why it is not going to go away.

Also hunters do not want to address the idea that they are the ones that got things into this shape, and most do not want to acknowledge the concept that American hunters are the ones that set the precedent for the whole "Tipping" issue.

I have been only told what to tip once. It was in Burkina Faso and the guy who was the facilitor/translator said he should be tipped $800.

This is a guy who collected me at the airport, dropped me off at the hotel, told me he was going to take me out to dinner but forgot, drove with me to camp and drove me back to taxidermist and airport wanted to be tipped $800. He never served as translator for me but he was around camp thru the hunt.

He also told me what I should tip staff and my ph. He expected a bigger tip than my ph who got me a wild lion. His demanding of a tip p@ssed me off.

I tipped everyone and told him I would tip him at the airport. I tipped him $150 or $200. I really did not like being told he expected to be tipped $800 and other hunters had tipped him that much. He is no longer with the outfitter so American hunters are spared him - he may be pedling his services to French hunters.

I think he also served as a facilitator of women for European hunters as he stopped on the way to the airport to talk to some working girls.

I was just p@ssed of at him enough that I felt that I did not tip my translator and another translator in camp enough - I gave them the recommended amount and gear.

I thought about it a while and felt bad that this fellow had impacted my tipping of people who had helped me significantly on the hunt. Arjun Reddy was kind enough to tip the 2 guys some additional $$ for me a year later and I paid him.

I don't think anyone who tells me they expect to get $x tip from me would ever get it.

Mike

quote:

I cannot trust most people to tell me honestly what the fair tip is. Yes i know that there are exceptions.

Most people try to get as much as they can and try harder for more.

Some will try and take everything you have and not be bothered that you are just an average guy like them but with a BIG passion for hunting Africa paying international rates.

Naki,

I'd be very interested also in how you came to these conclusions. Also I feel your extreme angst that you described over whether your tip would be perceived as adequate is unwarranted.

Mark

The easiest thing to do is simply purchase a hunting lease and hire your own PH. Then there is no pressure to tip, no pressure to shoot something you don't want, and no angst on what the staff is saying behind your back.

This thread really annoys me.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

Most people try to get as much as they can and try harder for more.

Some will try and take everything you have and not be bothered that you are just an average guy like them but with a BIG passion for hunting Africa paying international rates.

Please elaborate on this . . . how exactly do they "try to get as much as they can" and "try to take everything you have"? Have you been physically threatened? Held hostage? Perhaps it is just a bit of hyperbole.

What is there to elaborate on? Naki doesn't come from someplace where money falls from the sky.What he is saying makes a lot of sense.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
This thread really annoys me.

Andrew,

you shouldnt.

i will quote only few words of your last season report and that says a lot to me.

...``... I would further go to state that the operators and PHs that are frequent posters on AR represent some of the very best of hunting in Africa today. ...``...

Andrew: you are a man i wish i will meet if i ever go back to Africa, you are doing the best and we all know on the continent there is stuff we do not know ... or trying to avoid to know.
when i lived and hunted in CAR i ve seen lot but i was few decades ago. you are on the paradise but you worked and still work your butt for it.

keep the good job and fun.

Phil

I don't think Naki is off base.

When I climbed Kilimanjaro a few years ago, the staff sang and danced and did everything African to get tip money.

I've had Zim staff throw tip money at my feet and say, "More."

I've had one low life Zim PH keep the tip money and tell the staff the cheap American client left nothing.

I've had numerous PHs tell me the expected tip--sometimes before the hunt starts.

One young PH years ago told me he (and his boss) will save bigger animals (such as a 44" buff) for wealthy clients who will tip more.

All in all I've enjoyed each trip over the pond and this summer will see one or two more hunts there. It's all part of the game. Before the hunt I budget for tips. If accepted, fine. If not, fine.

Cal

quote:

Naki doesn't come from someplace where money falls from the sky.

Is there such a place where money grow on trees or rains from the sky?

Naki and others like him are of the opinion that tipping is an unacceptable practice and they are entitled to that opinion.

What is irritating is when someone claims to be what he is not.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Naki doesn't come from someplace where money falls from the sky.

Is there such a place where money grow on trees or rains from the sky?

Naki and others like him are of the opinion that tipping is an unacceptable practice and they are entitled to that opinion.

What is irritating is when someone claims to be what he is not.

No, Naki has said that he does not mind tipping.He is just asking questions as to where his money might go.Something that some find difficult to accept.Isn't it HIS money? Should he only be allowed to post positive experiences of his trip? What is it with your little insult? Are you aiming for peer approval or are you just a bully?

I think I agree with Shootaway.

OH MY GOD!! WHAT DID I JUST WRITE??

Cal

This has nothing to do with Africa but I have only ever tipped twice in my life
I was in the Navy over in Hawaii for a RIMPAC exercise 20 odd years ago
the first time was when a group of us went out for dinner and a few drinks some where near Pearl Harbour and had a shit hot night with beer flowing freely and laughs aplenty
at the end of the night we ponied up a far chunk of change to leave for the "serving wench" as a tip
Apparently it wasn't enough and she felt she deserved more and created a hell of a fuss bagging the shit out of us cheap arsed Aussies, she ended up unemployed later that night

the second time was when we were organizing the engineering dept's Piston Broke Social Club function
About 75 of us descended on the Pecos River Cafe (I think it was called) and dropped a few grand on the bar and told ol'e mate to let us know when it was running low
Ol'e mate organized a feed (he didn't understand the eaters are cheaters concept) and some much appreciated entertainment
anyway all and sundry had had a enjoyable time and we left a tip that was bigger that the bar bill for putting up with us and going beyond what was expected

Australians might not tip as a general rule but we love a good piss up and don't mind leaving a 6 pack or 2 with the host

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Naki doesn't come from someplace where money falls from the sky.

Is there such a place where money grow on trees or rains from the sky?

Naki and others like him are of the opinion that tipping is an unacceptable practice and they are entitled to that opinion.

What is irritating is when someone claims to be what he is not.

No, Naki has said that he does not mind tipping.He is just asking questions as to where his money might go.Something that some find difficult to accept.Isn't it HIS money? Should he only be allowed to post positive experiences of his trip? What is it with your little insult? Are you aiming for peer approval or are you just a bully?

Nope - not a bully, just stating facts.

Did I say HE (or anybody else for that matter) HAD to tip?

His opinion is just as valid as anyone else's so what's the big deal about that?

Realistically though, he is opposed to tipping since disassociating himself from his origins (now a Kiwi) he now feels he should rally with his current "compatriots" way of life

"Now I have decided that since I am a Kiwi and we do not have a tipping culture, I will not plan for tips. If I feel like it, I might give something, but I WILL NOT fret and worry about what is expected".

I tend to agree with Fulvio. Naki now feels as though he has license not to tip as he is now living in a culture where it isn't woven into the societal fabric.

Steve

For those who say tips are optional.

Just look at how many hunt offers we have here that actually mention that GRATUITIES ARE NOT INCLUDED! it comes right along with trophy preparations and other services one needs for a hunt.

What does that tell you?

Bingo Saeed

Someone should offer a hunt and include tips in the daily rate. See if it appeals more.

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Savikataaq Jr:
Someone should offer a hunt and include tips in the daily rate. See if it appeals more.

They have been around for years in some parts of Africa.

Never seen Daily rate includes tips