quote:

If you think black Africans understand that 1 American can afford to tip $500 but the next American can only tip $50 then you are naive'. They believe all Americans are rich and should tip accordingly.

And who created that situation?

Tipping is fine as long as it is not demanded and expected
And percentage is quite silly as well
Biggest problem is the amount of people expecting tips in Africa
It's rather astounding , kinda like tipping almost whole village
Let's try it here in States, go to restaurant and you have to tip everyone who works there.

Also Safari companies should simply put warning to hunters " if you can't afford to tip, stay home" at least according to some of us here?
You gotta be kidding me right?

quote:

Most PHs know that some very wealthy European clients who do repeat safaris do not tip

"European" is being too generic as Europe is made up of at least 25 countries; most of the so-called European clients actually DO tip on their first and even subsequent safaris, some more, some less generously than their American counterparts.

Some prefer to extend their gratitude using cash while others use gifts (Germans are known for the latter); some will splurge on expensive electronics or optics while some will show up with a half suitcase of cheap 1$ Chinese penknives.(compliments reserved for one agent AR poster who associates with that caliber of client).

Then you have the cheapskates from New Zealand & Australia (not all but most) who hide behind their "culture" of not tipping and those from India who claim to be part of the poor Third World group and whom keep the notes and leave the small change after a scrumptiously expensive serving of chicken Anarkali and Mawa Kachori washed down with several pegs of Louis XIII Black Pearl.

Its been said before and will be said again: Tipping is NOT obligatory in any situation but in an industry where your face will be remembered by the people who have waited on you for anywhere between 7 to 21 days, to be short-changed at the end, don't expect this bunch to bend over backwards for you on your next visit.

BTW, purchasing a car is not a "provision of service" where one decides to show an appreciation for service rendered - there's always the "dealer's commission" involved that takes care of that just in case you were not aware, same as for a booking agent.

To each their own.

Mike

You certain fooled me. You are being deliberately rude now.

Fulvio - do you then tip your doctor and lawyer? You are not buying a car but they are performing a great personal service to you.

What you and Mike are missing here is that the outfitter is not paying a fair wage to the safari staff, eye gouging clients 200% & 300% normal daily rates for high end hunts and then expecting the staff to be tipped. Then you guys blame others and call them names and criticise their culture!

The idea of "tips" was great at the beginning, where one shows his appreciation of a service well done.

Then it has escalated to be a compulsory "service" charge of 10-15%.

Now they are asking 20-25%.

This is just ridiculous!.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Mike

You certain fooled me. You are being deliberately rude now.

Fulvio - do you then tip your doctor and lawyer? You are not buying a car but they are performing a great personal service to you.

What you and Mike are missing here is that the outfitter is not paying a fair wage to the safari staff, eye gouging clients 200% & 300% normal daily rates for high end hunts and then expecting the staff to be tipped. Then you guys blame others and call them names and criticise their culture!

..... "but in an industry where your face will be remembered by the people who have waited on you for anywhere between 7 to 21 days, to be short-changed at the end, don't expect this bunch to bend over backwards for you on your next visit."

Doctors, lawyers and candle-stick makers are not part of the service industry we are debating about. For that matter why don't you chuck in the till attendant at the supermarket if you think along those lines?

..."criticizing their culture" ..... tipping is now considered culture? ... I always understood it to be a tradition or custom.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

If you think black Africans understand that 1 American can afford to tip $500 but the next American can only tip $50 then you are naive'. They believe all Americans are rich and should tip accordingly.

And who created that situation?

Rich Americans...

Naki,

You seem to be putting forth the narrative that the system should be changed to eliminate any angst you might feel about not tipping. The system is fine. The angst is of your creation because as myself and others have said tipping is not compulsory so just own it if you don't want to tip. If your offended by tipping you should not be effected at all by any perceived or real negative energy from the crew if you don't.

I'm personally offended by your implication that many safari operators are greedy crooks. I know quite few of those people and they're basically just trying to make a living as you are. My experience also is that very few live high off the hog. Naki you seem to have some very strong opinions about something you have zero experience with.

Mark

Fulvio



Please stop embarrassing yourself like this.

Custom and tradition are central to culture. That is how culture is established, evolves, enriches and grows.

Expecting and paying / receiving tips is a cultural practice developed through custom & tradition. Some here in NZ try to develop that into a custom and ultimately part of the culture - which it is not.

quote:

.."criticizing their culture" ..... tipping is now considered culture? ... I always understood it to be a tradition or custom

Mark Young

You are totally off the mark.

I do know a fair amount about tipping & a tiny little bit about African tipping.

You completely miss the point about outfitters charging 200% & 300% of daily rate for premium hunts. You fail to elaborate if the staff are also paid a corresponding increase in wage!

So even an honest and upfront outfitter is actually creaming it but not compensating the staff accordingly.

The angst I feel is actually against the rude rich guy who calls others cheap for not tipping. I'd like to see how many outfitters and PHs call clients cheap here on AR or to their faces or on their websites.

There is greed, arrogance, eye gouging AND elitism involved. It is a systemic problem. Why do you not own that rather than try to brush it aside as a minor matter?

I also have a stake in it as some NZ guides want to justify and introduce that practice as a norm here.

OK, for full disclosure I am one of the "Ugly Americans" who pleads "GUILTY" to "contributing" to the "tip culture". Having said that, my first trip to Africa was in 2009, not to hunt, but on a Christian Mission trip to the South Sudan (a little safer to go there then than now). The trip changed my life. Every "local" I came in contact with was only concerned if they were going to get to eat tomorrow-didn't meet any that were worried about their 401K's. Bottom line: just like professional fishing guides, etc., if everybody that did it got rich, everybody would want to do it. I am 64 years old, have hunted and fished since I was about 6, and I don't think I have ever seen, met, or have even heard of a professional fishing guide or hunting guide that had a long career actually working "in the trenches". Wonder why? Could it be that they work their asses off because they love what they do but eventually burn out? I'm not going to apologize to any of the "anti-tippers" on this forum. Whether you like it or not there are more of us from a "tipping culture" that go to the dark continent than you. If you feel guilty or bad about tipping, then DON'T DO IT. I would suggest, however, that whether you like it or not, tipping greatly increases the quality of life of the individuals who, at least in my case on all three of my safaris, BUSTED THEIR ASS FOR ME and I tipped them well. Just so you know, I am not "wealthy" by any means-I just budgeted to go and have a very understanding wife. OK, off my soap box.

quote:

Originally posted by drj:
OK, for full disclosure I am one of the "Ugly Americans" who pleads "GUILTY" to "contributing" to the "tip culture". Having said that, my first trip to Africa was in 2009, not to hunt, but on a Christian Mission trip to the South Sudan (a little safer to go there then than now). The trip changed my life. Every "local" I came in contact with was only concerned if they were going to get to eat tomorrow-didn't meet any that were worried about their 401K's. Bottom line: just like professional fishing guides, etc., if everybody that did it got rich, everybody would want to do it. I am 64 years old, have hunted and fished since I was about 6, and I don't think I have ever seen, met, or have even heard of a professional fishing guide or hunting guide that had a long career actually working "in the trenches". Wonder why? Could it be that they work their asses off because they love what they do but eventually burn out? I'm not going to apologize to any of the "anti-tippers" on this forum. Whether you like it or not there are more of us from a "tipping culture" that go to the dark continent than you. If you feel guilty or bad about tipping, then DON'T DO IT. I would suggest, however, that whether you like it or not, tipping greatly increases the quality of life of the individuals who, at least in my case on all three of my safaris, BUSTED THEIR ASS FOR ME and I tipped them well. Just so you know, I am not "wealthy" by any means-I just budgeted to go and have a very understanding wife. OK, off my soap box.

. . . well stated.

what I think would be interesting would be to see the breakdown of an outfitters costs per hunt

I'm not saying one way or another whether they are paid enough or not enough

but if everyone gains a bit of insight into: yearly fixed costs are XXX then for every week that I have a client here I have to employ 15 people at a tune of $$$

the insight may change people's outlooks:
-they may either look and say "gee the locals are getting paid quite well by the outfitter already so here is a bit" or
-they may look and say "gee these outfitters are running on narrow margins but to keep competitive with the neighbor and keep clients coming in they have to maintain those razor thin margins so I will help make up the difference and tip everyone a bit more

i suspect it is somewhere in the middle and will openly admit the topic has confused me to the point that if/when I go to africa I will be 100% blunt before sending any money ask upfront about tips as it seems as though tips, dip/pack, shipping can double the cost of an economical plains game hunt... but maybe i'm off on those?

The only ones complaining about tipping are the ones who don't tip...seems odd if it's your "culture" not to tip, then why give it any thought at all? ..it should be no big deal if it's how you roll.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
The only ones complaining about tipping are the ones who don't tip...seems odd if it's your "culture" not to tip, then why give it any thought at all? ..it should be no big deal if it's how you roll.

i don't think it's "only" the ones where it is a cultural thing.

I bought hay today with the understanding of i load it myself for a price. the guys grandson helped so I gave the grandson $20

I don't mind tipping at a restaurant but it's known upfront that the wait staff is working FOR tips. I don't go into the kitchen and give the cook $$ (although they SHOULD be on the tip) I don't give the buss boy $$, I don't give the dishwasher $$.... I give the waiter/waitress $$ so i think to some that want to go we get intimidated by seeing the "list" of who we are expected to tip and often how much or we come on here and see what others tip and think "I can't afford to leave the PH my new scope, I just paid him 6-10K"

I get the feeling that the staff in most camps will bend over backwards for the hunter & his/her friends/family so the more you require them to bendover backwards for the more you should tip but the average joe who saves up his side wages for a once in a lifetime trip or a trip every 5 years probably isn't going to ask for a lot of specialty stuff but I would bet most still feel the pressure to "keep up with the jonses who are born into $$ and here every year and tipped 20% last week"


so in my opinion it's not a matter of tipping but who to tip, why they get that tip, and how much to tip.

quote:

Originally posted by Tim629:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
The only ones complaining about tipping are the ones who don't tip...seems odd if it's your "culture" not to tip, then why give it any thought at all? ..it should be no big deal if it's how you roll.

i don't think it's "only" the ones where it is a cultural thing.

I bought hay today with the understanding of i load it myself for a price. the guys grandson helped so I gave the grandson $20

I don't mind tipping at a restaurant but it's known upfront that the wait staff is working FOR tips. I don't go into the kitchen and give the cook $$ (although they SHOULD be on the tip) I don't give the buss boy $$, I don't give the dishwasher $$.... I give the waiter/waitress $$ so i think to some that want to go we get intimidated by seeing the "list" of who we are expected to tip and often how much or we come on here and see what others tip and think "I can't afford to leave the PH my new scope, I just paid him 6-10K"

I get the feeling that the staff in most camps will bend over backwards for the hunter & his/her friends/family so the more you require them to bendover backwards for the more you should tip but the average joe who saves up his side wages for a once in a lifetime trip or a trip every 5 years probably isn't going to ask for a lot of specialty stuff but I would bet most still feel the pressure to "keep up with the jonses who are born into $$ and here every year and tipped 20% last week"


so in my opinion it's not a matter of tipping but who to tip, why they get that tip, and how much to tip.

I personally give a tip to the PH, tracker and perhaps others if there was someone who stood out in the course of the safari...otherwise I leave a lump sum to be distributed by the Ph after I leave. I don't tip 10 or 20 people separately. It's my way..it's what I'm comfortable with and if not tipping is truly your "culture" then you should feel confident in your way as well.

quote:

I personally give a tip to the PH, tracker and perhaps others if there was someone who stood out in the course of the safari...otherwise I leave a lump sum to be distributed by the Ph after I leave. I don't tip 10 or 20 people separately. It's my way..it's what I'm comfortable with and if not tipping is truly your "culture" then you should feel confident in your way as well.

What you are missing, is that "Tipping", and at certain levels has become an EXPECTED concept, and as can be seen with the various comments that have been made, hunters that are either unable or unwilling to participate in the "Program", should not attempt an African Safari.

Just another line of division being drawn among hunters, BY hunters!

You're not allowed to go on safari if you don't tip? I'll have to dig out some of my old hunt contracts and see if I can find that...must be burried deep cause I've never seen it. If you don't tip then that's on you as a client...but don't expect the staff to pretend you're not a cheap ass..can't have your cake and eat it to.

The point you miss completely, is that people like you, set the Standard that everyone else is EXPECTED to adhere to.

That is a good example of the Law of Diminishing Returns, people wanting to go on their first Safari, maybe their only Safari in their life, being EXPECTED to tip the same as someone that can go on a Safari every year or every other year.

Hunter's are going to be the ones responsible for the death of hunting in the long run.

Hunters that can afford an Annual or even an every other year or every third year hunt, really can not relate to the hunter that has to save for several years to go on a Once In Their Lifetime hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
The point you miss completely, is that people like you, set the Standard that everyone else is EXPECTED to adhere to.

That is a good example of the Law of Diminishing Returns, people wanting to go on their first Safari, maybe their only Safari in their life, being EXPECTED to tip the same as someone that can go on a Safari every year or every other year.

Hunter's are going to be the ones responsible for the death of hunting in the long run.

Hunters that can afford an Annual or even an every other year or every third year hunt, really can not relate to the hunter that has to save for several years to go on a Once In Their Lifetime hunt.

CH:

Have you ever been on an African safari?

As Heym stated, there is not one single outfitter who will demand that tips be paid; indeed most will outline it in their brochure that gratuities are not part and parcel of the offer but certainly not mandatory as some are inclined to believe nor are the amounts quantifiable.

Naki is stuck with his socialist beliefs but does not live up to the ideals of a true socialist as he also indulges in capitalist hobbies and lifestyles but wants deals at half the price and refuses to tip.

Naki you need to go back to India and sort out all those capitalists who are getting fat off the blood and sweat of the trodden masses; you know, issues like child labor, workers being grossly underpaid or not paid at all, daughters being sold into prostitution, etc. just to name a few.

Also, one doesn't have to be filthy reach to be a cheapskate - if one has the money to blow on a hunt he can surely afford or budget an extra 5-15% to "splurge" should he so desire - cheapskate in my book is one who under-tips or at worse, "culturally" doesn't tip at all.

One does not have to go on an African hunt and be expected to tip - obtaining a service in the service industry in general has a similar concept; bell-boy, restaurant waitress (gets extra if she wiggles & flashes), pole-dancers, concierge, taxi driver, parking attendant, barman,etc. ..... any of those ring a bell?

A. No I have never been to Africa. B. That does not matter.

The issue is tipping, how it has gotten out of hand and how it is affecting the attitudes of those wanting to do a Safari or for that matter a Guided Hunt ANYWHERE!

Contrary to what some believe, doing an African Safari, does not make anyone the ULTIMATE Hunter. It merely means they have the desire and funding to do such a hunt.

I have no problem with anyone that wants to or has hunted Africa, I think it is great. What I do not think is great is when anyone starts creating parameters and basically shaming people that do not or choose not to follow their beliefs in such concepts as tipping and all that is associated with tipping.

In following this discussion, there is or seems to be an underlying message that anyone doing a Safari, Must tip at a certain level and if they either can't or do not want to, then they simply should not go.

Clearly as often as the discussions concerning tipping arises, it has become an issue important enough to concern people.

There is a definite possibility that if the expected amount given as a tip to the Safari Staff continues to rise, the number of hunters doing Safari's will decrease.

quote:

In following this discussion, there is or seems to be an underlying message that anyone doing a Safari, Must tip at a certain level and if they either can't or do not want to, then they simply should not go

I'm not saying that at all...I'm saying if you don't tip, own it. Don't make excuses and blame others for your choice.

The subject has changed from the concept of tipping or not tipping, to one of trying to establish a level of what the tips should be, according to certain peoples beliefs or actions.

Face it, doing a Guided hunt of any kind any where is an expensive undertaking for almost anyone.

But for some folks it truly is or would be a Once In A Lifetime experience.

When planning such an adventure and viewing such sites as this to get an idea of everything that is involved in putting such a trip together, seeing people state basically, that unless a person is intent on allocating 3 to 4 thousand dollars extra as tips, they will not get good service or they should simply not go!

As others have stated it has almost became a form of extortion whereby thru the generosity or whatever a person wants to call it, a bar is set, and everyone coming into camp after that bar has been set, is expected to match or go above that level.

Americans gripe about our government, state or Federal establishing Minimum Wage levels, yet willingly have done that same basic thing in African Safari camps.

Just look at that people.

This the EXACT issue with tipping. It is a social and cultural status symbol of one- upmanship and a total disregard for basic human decency.

If not tipping is cheapskate then what is this kind of arrogance and conceit? It is certainly not honourable.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
The point you miss completely, is that people like you, set the Standard that everyone else is EXPECTED to adhere to.

That is a good example of the Law of Diminishing Returns, people wanting to go on their first Safari, maybe their only Safari in their life, being EXPECTED to tip the same as someone that can go on a Safari every year or every other year.

Hunter's are going to be the ones responsible for the death of hunting in the long run.

Hunters that can afford an Annual or even an every other year or every third year hunt, really can not relate to the hunter that has to save for several years to go on a Once In Their Lifetime hunt.

CH:

Have you ever been on an African safari?

As Heym stated, there is not one single outfitter who will demand that tips be paid; indeed most will outline it in their brochure that gratuities are not part and parcel of the offer but certainly not mandatory as some are inclined to believe nor are the amounts quantifiable.

Naki is stuck with his socialist beliefs but does not live up to the ideals of a true socialist as he also indulges in capitalist hobbies and lifestyles but wants deals at half the price and refuses to tip.

Naki you need to go back to India and sort out all those capitalists who are getting fat off the blood and sweat of the trodden masses; you know, issues like child labor, workers being grossly underpaid or not paid at all, daughters being sold into prostitution, etc. just to name a few.

Also, one doesn't have to be filthy reach to be a cheapskate - if one has the money to blow on a hunt he can surely afford or budget an extra 5-15% to "splurge" should he so desire - cheapskate in my book is one who under-tips or at worse, "culturally" doesn't tip at all.

One does not have to go on an African hunt and be expected to tip - obtaining a service in the service industry in general has a similar concept; bell-boy, restaurant waitress (gets extra if she wiggles & flashes), pole-dancers, concierge, taxi driver, parking attendant, barman,etc. ..... any of those ring a bell?

Embrace your inner frugalness . . . stop running from it.

If you think those that tip are engaged in social and cultural oneupmanship . . . please do not take offense if some of those that choose to tip think someone spending $15K-20K on a safari are just being cheap when they suggest that tipping $2K will break them or mean the difference between going on safari and staying home.

quote:

As Heym stated, there is not one single outfitter who will demand that tips be paid; indeed most will outline it in their brochure that gratuities are not part and parcel of the offer but certainly not mandatory as some are inclined to believe nor are the amounts quantifiable.

This, when Heym and others are OPENLY stating that if a person "Does Not Tip" and the discussion is about the AMOUNTS BEING TIPPED having gotten out of hand, to the POINT people considering an African Safari are being basically told to either ante up to the level that has been "Established" or expect poor service.

I have not noticed that many folks saying they don't/won't tip, except Saeed and I have a feeling he does as many or more safari's as anyone on here. No one seems to be real hot on calling him out about it.

People are simply concerned about having to come up with a few thousand dollars extra for tips, or being treated poorly because they cannot tip at the same level as someone a little more well heeled.

quote:

This the EXACT issue with tipping. It is a social and cultural status symbol of one- upmanship and a total disregard for basic human decency

Yes...we should all stop tipping because it hurts your feelings and makes you feel inferior.. ... never mind the people that bust their ass for a few extra bucks to make your Safari the trip of a lifetime.

quote:

Yes...we should all stop tipping because it hurts your feelings and makes you feel inferior.. ... never mind the people that bust their ass for a few extra bucks to make your Safari the trip of a lifetime.

None of us are saying ANYTHING about NOT TIPPING.

The issue is, setting a standard that EVERYONE will be expected to meet. Again just like the $15.00 minimum wage laws people are trying to get established across America.

It isn't about people busting their ass and getting a "Few Extra Bucks"!!!!

It is about someone going in and instead of, as an example tipping camp staff $20.00 per day, they tip $30.00 nor $40.00 per day.

The next poor bastard that hunts that camp will be EXPECTED to MATCH that amount, Where Does It Stop????????

That's exactly what Naki is talking about..he has given every excuse in the book to justify why he shouldn't have to tip at all...sometimes I think you're having a completely separate convo from everyone else!

Saeed also has an aversion to tipping, and while I feel that Naki has the right to his opinion, I have the right to not agree with Naki.

One more time with FEELING, I am not saying ANYTHING about NOT TIPPING, if a person wants to tip, that is their business, and I see no PROBLEM with it.

If a person chooses NOT TO TIP, that is their business.

Deal is, ANY/EVERY one doing a Safari should not be PRESSURED by ANYONE to tip at a certain level, but that is exactly what some on here are supporting.

It is NOT the concept of tipping that is in contention, it is the amounts some individuals are tipping that is causing Safari staff to EXPECT that same level of tipping from EVERY hunter.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Saeed also has an aversion to tipping, and while I feel that Naki has the right to his opinion, I have the right to not agree with Naki.

One more time with FEELING, I am not saying ANYTHING about NOT TIPPING, if a person wants to tip, that is their business, and I see no PROBLEM with it.

If a person chooses NOT TO TIP, that is their business.

Deal is, ANY/EVERY one doing a Safari should not be PRESSURED by ANYONE to tip at a certain level, but that is exactly what some on here are supporting.

It is NOT the concept of tipping that is in contention, it is the amounts some individuals are tipping that is causing Safari staff to EXPECT that same level of tipping from EVERY hunter.

CHC.. You largely make good points here and well stated. I think in general 99% agree Naki is a cheap Bas##?! (JK)
I honestly don't think, however, on your general Safari that amounts of tips between one hunter to the next makes much difference within any accepted norm. (To your last point)
A good reference is a restaurant where say 15-20% is the norm.(yes in most areas...not Socialist areas) A 25% tipper doesn't skew the expectation for the next person. Anything in the expected norm is acceptable.
There is however a huge difference in perception between say ZERO and say 10% or the normal 15-20%

The real point becomes where is the level where you reach the "insult level"? Right??
Bottom line...generally....tipping at SOME LEVEL ...IS expected. It IS the Norm...

To the point of this this thread though and a really good example of the exact problem many have expressed...I had one really bad "tipping experience" on what was my most expensive Safari.
I did a full 21 day Safari....Lion, Leopard etc....it was one of these deals with quite a list of "who needs to be tipped" and "how much"
I tipped the full staff the recommended amounts which was like $3,000 (not including the PH). This is also, by the way, not-overly comfortable for people to travel to these areas with this much cash.....
What happened? They gathered as I left after 21 days to bitch about ONLY getting this amount!!!!
So I feel the pain of many people related to this! ( I think they may have fed Naki to the Crocs!)

But there is a lot of difference between wait staff at a bar or eating establishment and the staff at a camp where a person is spending 7 to 30 days.

I don't feel that the majority of hunters have a problem with tipping, the problem appears to be one of amounts and expectations becoming unreasonable.

Who is going to say ENOUGH, first?

Be honest and read what i posted. Read it and understand the issues accurately. Stop spinning & misrepresenting my comments.

You are only quoting part of the posts. What about all the abuse and hate & racist attacks directed at me for challenging the tipping & elitist culture some propagate here?

It is obvious to any honest person who can read English that some here have a very elitist and exclusive view of African safari and consider it cheap if someone does not tip or tip like them.

Some of you guys still do not get the cultural aspect of this discussion. Distinctly elitist.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
That's exactly what Naki is talking about..he has given every excuse in the book to justify why he shouldn't have to tip at all...sometimes I think you're having a completely separate convo from everyone else!

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Saeed also has an aversion to tipping, and while I feel that Naki has the right to his opinion, I have the right to not agree with Naki.

One more time with FEELING, I am not saying ANYTHING about NOT TIPPING, if a person wants to tip, that is their business, and I see no PROBLEM with it.

If a person chooses NOT TO TIP, that is their business.

Deal is, ANY/EVERY one doing a Safari should not be PRESSURED by ANYONE to tip at a certain level, but that is exactly what some on here are supporting.

It is NOT the concept of tipping that is in contention, it is the amounts some individuals are tipping that is causing Safari staff to EXPECT that same level of tipping from EVERY hunter.

I think you got me wrong there.

My objection is to the fact that some outfitters seem to make a big point of tips, to the extent that they mention it in their offers., together with other things which are relevant to the hunt.

All reputable outfitters will tell you it is an option, that is why they do not mention it.

I am worried it might go the same way hotels and restaurants have gone.

It was an option, then now many of them add it whether you like it or not.

Claiming it is a "service" charge.

I have no objections to tips, where it is is relevant. I might even tend to over tip, for services well provided.

I think you and me are about the same age, and I have learnt a few things in those years.

That I deal with people who do provide what they promise, and do show my appreciations.

And those who do not, I make sure they know why I am not happy with it.

It is actually no difference to dealing with every day business.

Those who do provide the services they are supposed to, we tend to deal with them regularly.

Those who fall short, we never do again.

Trouble with hunting is that people are supposed to pay in advance.

What happens when the hunt goes wrong?

How many times have we heard of people getting refunds immediately??

quote:

That's exactly what Naki is talking about..he has given every excuse in the book to justify why he shouldn't have to tip at all...sometimes I think you're having a completely separate convo from everyone else!

Would it make the affected people happier if tipping on African safaris were to be forbidden and have the outfitter tailor the tip into the safari costs?

For the naive ones among us this has already been established by some very well known operators yet clients seem none the wiser and probably thrilled that there is no mention made on GRATUITIES when reading the "EXTRAS" section.

People who bitch about tipping which for crying out loud is a PERSONAL OPTION but don't seem to be able or want to UNDERSTAND this, need not worry about these because the hunts on offer only cater for a certain class of clients.

For the same people: its fine to bitch about tipping but what have you to say on over-pricing? Is it OK to pay anywhere up to $2500+/night to stay in a luxury photographic tented camp where a cup of coffee is equivalent to a $10 tip?

Bottom line, if you can afford it enjoy it, as the good things in life certainly don't come cheap! ...... and if you are of the opinion that you have spent enough and you don't feel a tip is justified, don't tip - period!

I love this thread.
There always someone with their panties in a wad. Makes my day.

Want to raise some eye brows in hunting camp. Let it be known that. Anyone that is unhappy with there tip, is free to give it back!

quote:

I think you got me wrong there.

Not really, although my use of the word aversion was not accurate.

You do make it quite clear and have often enough, that tips should be at the Sole discretion of the CLIENT, such as who deserves a tip and how much it should be.

I think most hunters feel that way. The problem comes from those that seem to purposely Over Tip and then coerce or "Brow Beat" other hunters into following "Their" example.

There is nothing wrong with tipping people for good service nor is there anything wrong with a client deciding who gets how much.

To me personally the problems start when hunters turn tipping into another "Game" and start seeing who can tip the most on a hunt.

quote:

To me personally the problems start when hunters turn tipping into another "Game" and start seeing who can tip the most on a hunt.

Now its become the client's fault for "over-tipping" and setting an "I'm wealthier than you" scenario.

A client is free to tip whatever amount he/she desires or not to tip at all; its their money and if they want to splash a hefty tip, whether for aggrandizement or genuine appreciation is really of no concern to Fred Bloggs.

IMO the problem relates more to the expectations and setting of "minimum tip levels" which are created in the various camps and which need to be addressed by the outfitter in educating his crew on the concept of tipping, that some clients have while others have not; a concept which can be quite difficult in transmitting to someone with a very low level of education if any.
Having been down that road before, its most always the PH on the hunt who bears the brunt from the crew for any dismal tip as it was he who failed in "grooming" the client during the course of the hunt.

Just to set the record straight for the socialists among us, there is no such thing as equality - the world is and will remain with a population made up of 3 classes: Upper/Middle/Low.

Ref. Tanzania: The wage bracket is set by the labor laws and based on their level of expertise, no member of a safari camp is short-changed other than the occasional "rogue" outfitter; in addition, all living expenses, medical, fares in/out of the hunting area are catered for by the outfitter. Season's wages and tips (those that get wired to the outfitter) are normally disbursed at the end of the 6 month hunting season after which these village folk will therefore be unemployed for the remaining 6 months as they have no qualifications and mostly no alternative choice of employment; their aim therefore is to bust their butts and make as much as they can to cover for the drought ahead.... or do our socialist friends expect this burden to be borne by the capitalist outfitter?

Bloody hell people! Give what you can and give from your heart......or don't give anything. Regardless of your decision, be comfortable in your own skin and own it. I find it interesting that some people from countries that do not have a tipping culture have trouble taking ownership and blame their guilt on others. But yet if you go to websites for hunts in those non-tipping culture countries or visit them at a show, they will quickly and at times boldly point out that tips are not included!

Not judging anyone because I really do not give a damn about what anyone does or does not do, and others decisions have never influenced my own. But in the end, man up and take ownership of your decisions.

Life is short so make every effort to enjoy it and don't miss an opportunity to share that joy with others if it is within the length of your cable tow.

Good hunting and safe travels..................Larry

First off I am not a Socialist by any means.

It does not personally bother me how much a person chooses to tip, but as can be seen from some comments that have been made, some folks either feel or believe that the whole "Tipping" process has gotten to be an issue that is evidently causing concern.

As far as I am concerned, and it is how I operate, I totally agree with this sentiment, " Give what you can and give from your heart."

Each person is going to or should tip according to their own personal beliefs and not concern themselves with the opinions/actions of others, but because there are no written rules concerning tipping, merely suggestions from others.