quote:

posted 26 January 2016 20:31 Hide Post
Frankly I have no problem tipping. That said, strikes me that the solution for all the folks that believe that tipping is offensive is for them to stop lamenting the fact that the practice exists and start walking the talk. But most do not want to do that, they want the practice to miraculously stop or to have others rise up to stop the practice. In the mean time, they will continue to tip so they do not risk being perceived negatively and complain about how tipping is a bane to sport hunting. The latter is bitching.

MJ, you have a point. When I had my tipping incident with a PH, I was so pissed at the POS I just paid what he wanted to get him out of my sight. In hindsight, I should have told him to kiss my a**! However, the camp staff did a great job and deserved some form of a tip.

I got you Mike, but you know how it is.
Not everyone feels 100% about it and on AR, people feel they can express themselves without looking cheap or petty
I honestly wish, outfitters would engage in this particular discussion and make people feel a bit at ease
I suppose I'm just dreaming,

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Frankly I have no problem tipping. That said, strikes me that the solution for all the folks that believe that tipping is offensive is for them to stop lamenting the fact that the practice exists and start walking the talk. But most do not want to do that, they want the practice to miraculously stop or to have others rise up to stop the practice. In the mean time, they will continue to tip so they do not risk being perceived negatively and complain about how tipping is a bane to sport hunting. The latter is bitching . . . or disingenuous if you prefer.

Mike, do you have any understanding that this tipping thing is difficult to grasp for us non-us hunters? I come from a country with no tipping culture whatsoever. All of the sudden (when hunting in Africa) you are expected to pay the salaries of the safari staff after the hunt. And no, to not tip is not an option when you understand that it is the tip money that are the major income for the people working their ass of for your safari. From a swedes point of view I am used to that staff get paid for their jobb by the employer and not by the end user. I find the tipping on a safari most degrading for the staff, what if they get a client that don´t pay tip? To choose to not tip on a safari would be ok if the tip levels would be like here in my country, the value of a cup of coffee or a soft drink.

PA, it is simply disingenuous to say I disagree with tipping or culturally tipping is not something I am comfortable with and tip anyway. You should tell the outfitter right up front when the hunt is booked, I do not agree with tipping or culturally I am opposed to tipping and do not intend to tip so let there be no more discussion of the matter. Let the outfitter deal with the staff.

My objection frankly is directed more to my American colleagues that rant and rave about how offensive and degrading they find safari tipping to be and then turn right around and pay a tip . . . then go online and vent some more. For Pete's sake, if you disagree with the practice, do not support the practice. Man up.

There is a long time poster on AR that has done a lot of hunting in Africa. The story is told that when he booked his first of several hunts with a particular outfitter he introduced himself to the outfitter at a show and said, "I do not walk, I do not talk and I do not tip. Do you still want to hunt with me?" The two hunted together a number of times after that. I admire his candor. Others could learn a bit from him.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
PA, it is simply disingenuous to say I disagree with tipping or culturally tipping is not something I am comfortable with and tip anyway. You should tell the outfitter right up front when the hunt is booked, I do not agree with tipping or culturally I am opposed to tipping and do not intend to tip so let there be no more discussion of the matter. Let the outfitter deal with the staff.

My objection frankly is directed more to my American colleagues that rant and rave about how offensive and degrading they find safari tipping to be and then turn right around and pay a tip . . . then go online and vent some more. For Pete's sake, if you disagree with the practice, do not support the practice. Man up.

There is a long time poster on AR that has done a lot of hunting in Africa. The story is told that when he booked his first of several hunts with a particular outfitter he introduced himself to the outfitter at a show and said, "I do not walk, I do not talk and I do not tip. Do you still want to hunt with me?" The two hunted together a number of times after that. I admire his candor. Others could learn a bit from him.

Thank you Mike,

I´ll leave this tip debate for you us-hunters to sort out

for me personally tipping is one of those things I don't mind doing for dinner.

that being said I've never been on a guided hunt so the thought of spending $4,000+ and still being expected to tip is just a bit of a shock to my system.

It has also largely gone into the tourist industry of Africa too, my parents took a trip in the fall and my dad was a bit confused by "I'm already paying a decent amount of money for this trip then they give us a paper of suggested tips" They were in a group that was moving to a different camp every day or two so it wasn't just a $20 tip for a XXX for the week, this was going to be that much suggested for every couple in the group to give these people pretty much daily. I did point dad to this site & topic specifically so he could see that it's not just him scratching his head over the topic

I believe the "tipping issue" is just as uncomfortable to most operators as it is to clients.

It has nothing to do with operators underpaying their camp staff and pushing for clients to "top-up" staff income through tips (Though there are always exceptions I'm sure). Most outfitters pay their staff above average wages but when that "above average" amount is still hardly subsistence income, you start to understand why camp staff in Africa can't wait to see what 'tip' they receive at the end of the safari. Even should one pay them double the market rate, it still is "subsistance income"!

Outfitters are businessmen, not philanthrophists.

The reason, I think, why some outfitters use the "printed list" system is purely for administrative reasons. many outfitters don't want their staff to have cash lying aorund in camp as it causes 'issues" amongst staff that then creates a whole set of petty consequences for the outfitter to deal with that can be avoided if all cash tips are collected back at base office and paid out at the end of the season or end of month. The list alows staff to track what they received as well as eliminates any trust issue that the outfitter or Ph stole their tip. These scenarios may sound petty but it's the truth.

Personally, I believe that tipping does act as a deterrent to camp pilferage incidents being contained. Interpret that as you wish.

Sadly, the whole tips matter has become engrained in the culture of safari from the times of Roosevelt and Hemingway. Try not let it ruin your hunt.

Hard for me to under stand why so many clients complain about tipping I am in the US at the moment marketing, you take a cab ride the guy expects a tip, go into a restaurant 15% is the norm, table of more than 6 they just ad 20% to the bill no questions ask. You walk into A hotel A guy stand there open the door he needs A tip, you sit at any of the tables in Vegas some one walks buy give you a driwnk you fork out some $ 1 bills and tip. You go to any airport you stop someone open the door take your bags and wants $5. And that waiter waiting on the 6 or more table don't give a rats ass since he is already guaranteed 20%, I guess this tipping thing gets to us ALL!!

I ALWAYS TELL MY CLIENTS UPFRONT TIPPING IS NOT EXPECKET, in 15 years of doing business I never had a client that did not tip my staff, my clients are mostly from THE US.

I've been reading this topic with interest. On my safari with Saeed, at the end of the trip Walter said he usually gives the tent boy a bit of a tip for the work he's done. That threw me completely off guard as it honestly never occurred to me. We don't normally tip here in Australia. I actually felt a little funny about it but I had a chat to Saeed and he set my mind at ease.

I'm trying to save for and dreaming of my own safari so I've been looking over a lot of outfitters web sites and such. So here's my 2 bobs worth (2 cents for you yanks )

In every site I've looked at it has gratuities listed in the "Not included in the daily rates". Now I've read on this post some outfitters say that tipping is not expected. Then why is it on the web sites? To my mind tipping should be a surprise, no matter where you are (restaurant or safari)its the customer saying " Thanks mate you and your guys did a fantastic job, here's a token of my appreciation" When it becomes expected its no longer a "token of appreciation", its part of the bill.

Tipping is so ingrained into American culture you guys just can't stop. A poster on this topic said he got bad or average service in a restaurant so he didn't tip as much....but he still tipped.....

I'm scrimping and saving for a trip to Africa and it'll be along way off. Even just a tip of $1000 is a lot to me, and its basically another trophy fee for another animal I could of hunted.

What I'm thinking is that if I can afford it I will tip something, but it won't be big.

May be they should learn from McDonald!

I was at a McDonald drive through window to buy some food.

I paid the girl and told her to keep the change.

"I am sorry sir, we are not allowed to take any money!"

What a refreshing answers!

At a 6-star hotel here in Dubai, the service was absolutely atrocious.

They had a 15% surcharge for non existence service.

I deducted that 15% from the bill, and paid the rest.

And on wrote on the bill:

"The manager of this restaurant should go and work for McDonald for a few years to learn what proper service in like!"

That was a few years ago.

Last year we went there again, and had absolutely spotless service!

quote:

Originally posted by Bakes:
I've been reading this topic with interest. On my safari with Saeed, at the end of the trip Walter said he usually gives the tent boy a bit of a tip for the work he's done. That threw me completely off guard as it honestly never occurred to me. We don't normally tip here in Australia. I actually felt a little funny about it but I had a chat to Saeed and he set my mind at ease.

I'm trying to save for and dreaming of my own safari so I've been looking over a lot of outfitters web sites and such. So here's my 2 bobs worth (2 cents for you yanks )

In every site I've looked at it has gratuities listed in the "Not included in the daily rates". Now I've read on this post some outfitters say that tipping is not expected. Then why is it on the web sites? To my mind tipping should be a surprise, no matter where you are (restaurant or safari)its the customer saying " Thanks mate you and your guys did a fantastic job, here's a token of my appreciation" When it becomes expected its no longer a "token of appreciation", its part of the bill.

Tipping is so ingrained into American culture you guys just can't stop. A poster on this topic said he got bad or average service in a restaurant so he didn't tip as much....but he still tipped.....

I'm scrimping and saving for a trip to Africa and it'll be along way off. Even just a tip of $1000 is a lot to me, and its basically another trophy fee for another animal I could of hunted.

What I'm thinking is that if I can afford it I will tip something, but it won't be big.

You Aussies rarely tip and as stated it is not part of your culture. I simply notify my staff that the tip will most probably be verbal and that is alright with them.

One of the most important factors is to explain to the safari staff that tipping is not mandatory and is at the discretion of the hunting client. Besides they get the meat and a regular pay check.

This is a very interesting and informative thread. I normally tip. As a result of past experiences, I started taking the time to do my due diligence prior to booking hunts and/or travel. It does not take much time to learn wages and customs in a country. Nor is it difficult to learn the government rates vs what the locals actually pay. I ask the guide/PH/outfitter about tips (norms, number of workers, etc.) prior to booking. I will not book with anyone that lists tips like it is part of the rates or expected. I will not tip the equivalent of monthly wages+. I will not tip if it is not the custom in that country. I always take the advice of the PH/guide into consideration as he knows local customs and camp politics. I will not tip "just because" if it is not earned. I am flexible (you have to be once you leave the US) but I also reserve the right to make the final decision. I am the client/customer and it is my hard earned money.

Since I started doing my due diligence and being open about it, the tip problem and the imagined stress that comes with it has gone away for me. I do a lot of international travel for work and I have lived in several different countries. It humors and frustrates me when I am at DSC and see outfitters listing tip rates and suggestions for camp help, bird boys, skinners, etc. that I know is the equivalent of several months wages and considerably more than my employer pays our local technicians in that country. I saw a few that if their suggestions were followed, the daily rate would double! Needless to say I will never book with them. I must be doing something right as I have always been asked to return (and at times have). It only took one unpleasant international hunting experience to wake me up to the reality that my vacation is still business. Open communication and knowledge will help to keep it a vacation and not an "unpleasant business decision".

Safe travels...............Larry

Guys,

This is the part I don't get. The "stress" associated with tipping that Larry mentioned. I have my tipping parameters in mind before I go on the safari and tip above or below that dependent on how hard I think the crew worked for me. I've reduced the PH tip in one case a full $1,000 and bumped the PH tip about 30% recently. Like it has been said before on this thread don't get stressed it is your safari do what you want. I think folks worry far too much about how the PH and crew will feel about the tip.

Mark

Andrew

That is very refreshing to see.

That is the kind of information and understanding that guys like me (not from the US) look for when trying to find an Outfitter.

When the Outfitter / PH sets the right expectations up front, the client can relax and focus on the hunt and the experience.

3 years ago I started planning my African safari (I had to cancel the hunt) and a few things were a concern to me. The first was the cost of taxidermy - I got a surprise after my British Colombian Bear hunt - Taxidermy was around $1,200 but shipping, customs and tax added another $1000. That is a lot of money for me.

Andrew was the one who advised me to do some Euro mounts and save the cash for hunting. It was a HUGE help & just took the pressure off. I did not have to dread a $3000 taxidermy bill.

Second was tipping. My research showed a huge range in expectations even from the same country (Zim) and neighbouring concessions! I raised the subject with the few outfitters I had shortlisted & most responses were indifferent. One even got stroppy that I asked.

One day I hope to hunt in a group hunt with you mate.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Bakes:
I've been reading this topic with interest. On my safari with Saeed, at the end of the trip Walter said he usually gives the tent boy a bit of a tip for the work he's done. That threw me completely off guard as it honestly never occurred to me. We don't normally tip here in Australia. I actually felt a little funny about it but I had a chat to Saeed and he set my mind at ease.

I'm trying to save for and dreaming of my own safari so I've been looking over a lot of outfitters web sites and such. So here's my 2 bobs worth (2 cents for you yanks )

In every site I've looked at it has gratuities listed in the "Not included in the daily rates". Now I've read on this post some outfitters say that tipping is not expected. Then why is it on the web sites? To my mind tipping should be a surprise, no matter where you are (restaurant or safari)its the customer saying " Thanks mate you and your guys did a fantastic job, here's a token of my appreciation" When it becomes expected its no longer a "token of appreciation", its part of the bill.

Tipping is so ingrained into American culture you guys just can't stop. A poster on this topic said he got bad or average service in a restaurant so he didn't tip as much....but he still tipped.....

I'm scrimping and saving for a trip to Africa and it'll be along way off. Even just a tip of $1000 is a lot to me, and its basically another trophy fee for another animal I could of hunted.

What I'm thinking is that if I can afford it I will tip something, but it won't be big.

You Aussies rarely tip and as stated it is not part of your culture. I simply notify my staff that the tip will most probably be verbal and that is alright with them.

One of the most important factors is to explain to the safari staff that tipping is not mandatory and is at the discretion of the hunting client. Besides they get the meat and a regular pay check.

I'm not a Africa outfitter but I am a Alaskan outfitter and do all my own guiding. As far as tips go....

If someone asks I say 20,000$
Or a cold coke. Up to them.
It's nice
To get a tip, really it ends up like a pat on the back that I did a good job and the client was satisfied. I've had a lot of clients say it was great, oh how wonderful, I'm gonna do a hunt report on AR or in a magazine and help you book up blah blah and nothing ever happens once they get on the plane. Then I wonder...hmmm did I really do a good job?! Lol
I don't need a tip. I don't plan on tips. Tips do help my family out a lot. Tips are welcome and vey much appreciated. I won't hate you if you don't tip. I would never tell someone what tips should be. It's a gratuity. Means a gift that shows great-fullness. That's not for me to decide. This Africa tipping sounds a little crazy to me. But I don't have camp help either. Do it all myself.

But, I've always had the question...you hunt with the guide that is also the outfitter. There are no other support personnel. Should there be a tip expected or should it be assumed that the guide's total compensation is already in the quoted hunt cost?

I've had this question a lot. Regardless who you hunt with, they are on a payroll, so I never really thought there was a question. It's just a gratuity, tip whoever you hunt with if you feel like it. If you don't, don't tip. Everyone loves a tip, it really is feel good thing that helps let a guide know you appreciate the above and beyond from your trip!
Everyone's compensation is included in the cost of a hunt.
Again...I'm not a Africa outfit. Speaking strictly from a Alaska guide viewpoint.

quote:

Originally posted by Fourtyonesix:
I'm not a Africa outfitter but I am a Alaskan outfitter and do all my own guiding. As far as tips go....

If someone asks I say 20,000$
Or a cold coke. Up to them.
It's nice
To get a tip, really it ends up like a pat on the back that I did a good job and the client was satisfied. I've had a lot of clients say it was great, oh how wonderful, I'm gonna do a hunt report on AR or in a magazine and help you book up blah blah and nothing ever happens once they get on the plane. Then I wonder...hmmm did I really do a good job?! Lol
I don't need a tip. I don't plan on tips. Tips do help my family out a lot. Tips are welcome and vey much appreciated. I won't hate you if you don't tip. I would never tell someone what tips should be. It's a gratuity. Means a gift that shows great-fullness. That's not for me to decide. This Africa tipping sounds a little crazy to me. But I don't have camp help either. Do it all myself.

+1

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Fourtyonesix:
.......It's just a gratuity, tip whoever you hunt with if you feel like it. If you don't, don't tip. Everyone loves a tip, it really is feel good thing that helps let a guide know you appreciate the above and beyond from your trip!

But why is this great feeling.....knowing you are appreciated exclusive to people in some services where tipping has become a culture.

Absolutely everyone including kids getting pocket money from their parents, would like more money or for that matter more things given to them but it is a fact of life for most that you get paid what you ask for a service or what your company or business is willing to pay or what your parents want to pay in the case of pocket money. To hold your hand out for a 'voluntary' top up is just sheer greed, and don't trot out the old "its entirely up to an individual if you tip or not". No it's not, the practice has developed and crept into a culture of expectation in some service industries in some countries and even for those of us coming from cultures that do not tip, it is often so uncomfortable when faced with this that we just "do in Rome what the Romans do" even though it is against our belief.

I don't think those of you from countries that have the culture actually appreciate just how distasteful a practice it is for those if us from countries who do not practice tipping and in fact it is amusing to read through this thread to see just how many of you, many very well healed, who also abhor the practice but you still continue to perpetrate and therefore encourage it.

Even in my country the practice of tipping seems to have crept in to our guiding business, certainly not introduced by ourselves but thanks to you Americans it has wormed its way in. No doubt some of our restaurants, cafes and hotels have caught this bug too although I have never personally seen it or practiced it anywhere. Only once have I experienced this in my country many years ago when I stayed overnight in a city hotel and had an evening meal and breakfast. The waiter in the morning seemed very keen on guiding me to the checkout to pay the bill but sullenly slunk away when there was nothing extra paid.
The sheer cheek of that bastard, I could have smacked him around the ear for trying that on.

I am very grateful when my dentist fixes a toothache or when my doctor sorts out a problem or when the checkout girl packs my groceries in a bag or when the pilot safely gets me to my destination, or god forbid, when I had cancer years ago and everyone rallied round to administer drugs and get me back to good health again. Do I tip all these good people? Hell no they receive their wages and salaries exactly the same as I do for performing a service and not one of them would even hint at wanting more from me.

quote:

I am very grateful when my dentist fixes a toothache or when my doctor sorts out a problem or when the checkout girl packs my groceries in a bag or when the pilot safely gets me to my destination, or god forbid, when I had cancer years ago and everyone rallied round to administer drugs and get me back to good health again. Do I tip all these good people? Hell no they receive their wages and salaries exactly the same as I do for performing a service and not one of them would even hint at wanting more from me.

So you are comparing the remuneration of a PH, and other members of a far lower wage scale to the abovementioned professionals whose only risk in life might be getting mugged or falling out of their golf cart!

When a dentist has put in several hours of work on your ivory it probably amounts to a PH's monthly salary.
Oh, don't say that he can't grumble because it is the profession he chose.

In most European states the tip is defined as "Service Charge" and its on every bill and if you want to pass (tip) the waiter something extra you are free to do so.

My Dad told me years ago and I share his opinion

Tips are how royalty pitch a slice of bread to the peasants...it helps them feel good....charity and all

I tip at sit down restaurants when the service is good

I tip a bartender but not every time I get a beer

I tip a hot topless dancer whenever I get a chance

"Tips are how royalty pitch a slice of bread to the peasants...it helps them feel good....charity and all."

There ya have it. Clients are treated like royalty. Ph/guides are mere pheasants. Tips make us feel good. I thank all the kind sirs!

as for why tips have became the norm and expected...human nature. Most imthst grow up in a tipping business expect it. Most that don't, don't.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

I am very grateful when my dentist fixes a toothache or when my doctor sorts out a problem or when the checkout girl packs my groceries in a bag or when the pilot safely gets me to my destination, or god forbid, when I had cancer years ago and everyone rallied round to administer drugs and get me back to good health again. Do I tip all these good people? Hell no they receive their wages and salaries exactly the same as I do for performing a service and not one of them would even hint at wanting more from me.

So you are comparing the remuneration of a PH, and other members of a far lower wage scale to the abovementioned professionals whose only risk in life might be getting mugged or falling out of their golf cart!

When a dentist has put in several hours of work on your ivory it probably amounts to a PH's monthly salary.
Oh, don't say that he can't grumble because it is the profession he chose.

In most European states the tip is defined as "Service Charge" and its on every bill and if you want to pass (tip) the waiter something extra you are free to do so.

Fujo I just happen to use those as examples, the check out girl is not what you class as a professional but she does a good job nevertheless. I could have included all the tradespeople one uses, the paper delivery boy, etc, etc, no one gets tipped in NZ, only a greedy few who seem to think their industry, guiding one of them, is so much more deserving than any other, and I bet anything they don't tip their fellow countrymen for the services they provide them.

I'm not gonna weigh in on the fight here. I'll just tell a story

I worked at a theater restaurant as a waiter in college, for a brief period before bow season began. . .

I made $2.10 an hour on Friday through Sunday night shows, and on Wednesday matinees (which was mostly senior citizens groups), they paid us minimum wage hourly. . . because the seniors never tipped

Just came back from a holiday in the Maldives.

At the resort, all prices had an additional 10% as a service charge, plus 12.5% as a government tax.

The above are required, as no one can purchase anything without paying them.

So instead of having a price of say $100 on an item, and mentioning that service charge and tax, why don't they just say it costs $122.5??

A tour operator mentioned that she always advices her clients to factor in at least 30% extra on their expenses - because of the hidden costs that can increase dramatically what one has to pay.

Frankly, I think this is all a bloody rip off!

quote:

Originally posted by bakerb:
I'm not gonna weigh in on the fight here. I'll just tell a story

I worked at a theater restaurant as a waiter in college, for a brief period before bow season began. . .

I made $2.10 an hour on Friday through Sunday night shows, and on Wednesday matinees (which was mostly senior citizens groups), they paid us minimum wage hourly. . . because the seniors never tipped

I quite believe your story and I'm sure there would be many more examples like it but the solution to the problem is not tipping, it is have labour laws that force businesses and anyone paying remuneration to pay fair wages and salaries, that is what we have in my country and one reason why most of us detest anyone that asks for or expects tips or any one who perpetrates the practice of tipping. If you have it in your own country then keep it there don't spread the practice around the world and stuff it up for everyone including yourselves many of whom complain of the practice but do it anyway.

Do NZ outfitting business and their guides take tips?
Just wondering as I never hunted and never will for the fact of overpriced pet stags from hidden stock sheds with steroid and growth hormone horns

Laptops, I-pads, Tablet computers, cell phones, cameras, binoculars, solar phone chargers, watches, backpacks, ammo and brass, scopes, spotting scopes, laser range finders, and video cameras all make excellent gifts rather than just $$$.

With the exchange rate what it is, these items cost a fortune overseas. You get more mileage with some of this than just cash. Plus it lightens your load on the return trip.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Laptops, I-pads, Tablet computers, cell phones, cameras, binoculars, solar phone chargers, watches, backpacks, ammo and brass, scopes, spotting scopes, laser range finders, and video cameras all make excellent gifts rather than just $$$.

With the exchange rate what it is, these items cost a fortune overseas. You get more mileage with some of this than just cash. Plus it lightens your load on the return trip.

All of the things you mentioned make good tips or gifts but a very good friend and African PH told me he can use money over all of those things and when he is gifted these items he never ever refuses them but will later sell or trade them.

Most ph/guides guide for a living. Collecting trinkets is fun but don't feed the kids.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Do NZ outfitting business and their guides take tips?
Just wondering as I never hunted and never will for the fact of overpriced pet stags from hidden stock sheds with steroid and growth hormone horns

Yes the outfitters do take tips and this is the pity of it all, a practice introduced not a culture or expectation in our country. Why do they expect it when they do not pay tips to anyone themselves.

Not all outfitters have 'pet' deer for shooting, but again they only provide what the market demands. If some lazy hunter whats a big head to hang on the wall to impress his mates and is happy to shoot it on a farm then that is not illegal here and the market will supply. Ethical? This is an endless debate and can be applied anywhere in the world.

There is plenty of free range hunting here and plenty of guides who will supply it.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Do NZ outfitting business and their guides take tips?
Just wondering as I never hunted and never will for the fact of overpriced pet stags from hidden stock sheds with steroid and growth hormone horns

Yes the outfitters do take tips and this is the pity of it all, a practice introduced not a culture or expectation in our country. Why do they expect it when they do not pay tips to anyone themselves.

Not all outfitters have 'pet' deer for shooting, but again they only provide what the market demands. If some lazy hunter whats a big head to hang on the wall to impress his mates and is happy to shoot it on a farm then that is not illegal here and the market will supply. Ethical? This is an endless debate and can be applied anywhere in the world.

There is plenty of free range hunting here and plenty of guides who will supply it.

Good to hear that

A serious debate on the Australia NZ forum

What I heard from Andrew, honest as he always is, is that tipping from Aussies is not expected, but usually is expected from Americans. Hence, an an
American, I am expected to pay more than an Aussie for the same safari experience. Kind of shitty that it works out that way. I had an experience in Zim two years ago, when I asked the PH about tips and he gave me his expectations. It was almost twice what the outfitter had on his website for the trackers, driver scout etc. When I questioned him about it and showed him the website paperwork. He said " That is for Europeans." Keep in mind, I never got on the sticks on my buff hunt. I did shoot a hippo. But I think it is bull when a PH or an outfitter expects one nationality to pay more for a service than a person from another country.

A current topic in Cape Town is of a black guy writing a derogatory comment (instead of a tip) in the "tips" column when paying his bill. His waitress was a white girl.

The comment has drawn condemnation from all corners, it was downright racist and disgusting.

That said, the public have come together and paid her the tip, through collections etc. Her tip is purported to be in the region of R120000.00 (US$8500)......a real slap in the face for the customer.

Perhaps we PH's can ask the hunting client to NOT tip us in future, but rather castigate us to the nth degree.....

Who knows, the anti hunting public could just gather together, raise some SERIOUS funding and give it to us a tips !!!

quote:

Originally posted by shoulderman:
What I heard from Andrew, honest as he always is, is that tipping from Aussies is not expected, but usually is expected from Americans. Hence, an an
American, I am expected to pay more than an Aussie for the same safari experience. Kind of shitty that it works out that way. I had an experience in Zim two years ago, when I asked the PH about tips and he gave me his expectations. It was almost twice what the outfitter had on his website for the trackers, driver scout etc. When I questioned him about it and showed him the website paperwork. He said " That is for Europeans." Keep in mind, I never got on the sticks on my buff hunt. I did shoot a hippo. But I think it is bull when a PH or an outfitter expects one nationality to pay more for a service than a person from another country.

Haven't you heard? All Americans are rich and enjoy paying more for the same service

I wish more of you guys would respond to the debate on the Australian forum.

The issue is that this horrible American practice is really corrupting our hunting industry!

Why not demand an honest and transparent cost / fee structure that has no hidden costs?

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I wish more of you guys would respond to the debate on the Australian forum.

The issue is that this horrible American practice is really corrupting our hunting industry!

Why not demand an honest and transparent cost / fee structure that has no hidden costs?

Naki,

I can't help but be a little offended by your above statements. What is it you find not transparent and and where are the hidden charges? I think you'll find most safari operators make the costs very clear. In my contracts it is crystal clear what the hunter is paying for and not paying for. There are no hidden costs. Tips cannot be charged ahead of time and in my opinion they should not be part of the upfront cost. Tips are an incentive to give 110%. I actually like the system. I wrote a quote for a safari today and under the Not Included I wrote "Gratuity if you find one is warranted". This allows unaware hunters to know that tipping is normal on safari. Some hunters are far more interested in not being perceived as ignorant than they are the actual money. It also makes it clear that a tip and the amount of the tip is clearly up to hunter's digression. Once again! If you don't want to tip even if you had a great safari don't as it is not mandatory but own it if you decide not to. Tipping is part of the safari experience in Africa and no amount of complaining is about to change that. Evidently tipping isn't part of the hunting experience in NZ or OZ and that's fine too but I'd feel funny not leaving a token if I'd had great experience.

Mark

"Leicester City owner Vichai Srivaddhanaprabha is set to reward his club's players after their Premier League title win was sealed earlier this week by giving each individual a brand new car worth in excess of £32,000 gifting every player a brand new Mercedes B-Class Electric. The overall gesture is likely to cost the Foxes owner in the region of £1m."

So tipping is not solely confined to hunting guides, waited services, etc. whose wages can be rated as low/middle but also to sports players whose weekly remunerations can be mind-boggling.

Those individuals who cannot accept a job well done being voluntarily rewarded with a token of appreciation by the customer, be it monetary or otherwise, is unfathomable.

These are feelings of jealousy which go against the grain of Marxist socialist ideology, typical of Australian and NZ politics and its hard-liners like some of whom have often voiced such thoughts on anything colonial(ex) or with a capitalist trend which more often than not has contributes and still contributes more positively to an economy than does one of a socialist or comunist nature.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
"Leicester City owner Vichai Srivaddhanaprabha is set to reward his club's players after their Premier League title win was sealed earlier this week by giving each individual a brand new car worth in excess of £32,000 gifting every player a brand new Mercedes B-Class Electric. The overall gesture is likely to cost the Foxes owner in the region of £1m."

So tipping is not solely confined to hunting guides, waited services, etc. whose wages can be rated as low/middle but also to sports players whose weekly remunerations can be mind-boggling.

Those individuals who cannot accept a job well done being voluntarily rewarded with a token of appreciation by the customer, be it monetary or otherwise, is unfathomable.

These are feelings of jealousy which go against the grain of Marxist socialist ideology, typical of Australian and NZ politics and its hard-liners like some of whom have often voiced such thoughts on anything colonial(ex) or with a capitalist trend which more often than not has contributes and still contributes more positively to an economy than does one of a socialist or comunist nature.

You are not comparing similar things here!

The owner in this case is going to pocket close to 150 million pounds for winning the league, so giving them a million is not much is it?