quote:

You are not comparing similar things here!

The owner in this case is going to pocket close to 150 million pounds for winning the league, so giving them a million is not much is it?

Irrelevant Saeed, it is still a tip/reward; only of different proportions.

He may well be pocketing 150m but he also has a sizeable investment + wages, etc. etc. so at the end of the day it will end up being more of a "prestigious win" rather than one of monetary benefit.

[quote]it will end up being more of a "prestigious win" rather than one of monetary benefit./quote]

Similar to the SCI Awards where the recipient who has spent a shitload of money, justifies the expense with a medal, a certificate and a round of applause.

Several restaurants in my part of the world are going to a No Tipping business model.

They pay their staff a fair, sustainable living wage and have marginally increased menu prices. Incentive to provide good service comes in the form of the manager asking you how pleased you were as you leave.

Good service is rewarded by keeping your job!
Staff that receives chronic complaints are dismissed.
Simple, and it works!

I own a service business. My employees get paid a sustainable living wage commensurate with their skill level and experience. I do not allow them to accept gratuities. Raises and promotions are biased on performance and customer feedback and dismissals are based on the same.

I personally would prefer a system like this wherever I encounter service workers. No extra cash to carry. Nobody gets offended on either side of the equation.

You are paying for a "Professional" service. As the word implies, a person should be able to make a sustainable living for themselves and their staff without the need for supplement.

I have just returned from a 12 day plains game hunt in Namibia. Eight Aussie hunters in camp. Our outfitter had suggested a range within which gratuities would normally fall. All of us paid the maximum suggested gratuity as we were very happy with our hunt.
We understand that PH's and camp staff rely on gratuities to bring their income up to what we Aussies would consider an acceptable standard. That is the custom in Namibia.
In Australia we pay our staff what we consider they are worth with the minimum wage being set sufficiently high by government that people can live without receiving gratuities. I also pay my staff a bonus twice annually based on how well the business has done and my perception of their contribution toward that.
I would not expect to pay a gratuity on an Australian hunt and have never done so to date.

Funny story.
I was there. Driving for pipe and oil field hauler: E.L. Farmer & CO/Odessa Tx. Bill Ferguson owned the company. I went across the street to a greasy spoon café for breakfast. Just about had my order when Bill came in, saw me and set down beside me. Ordered egg's. Didn't like 'em, asked for more, didn't like those either. Bitched at the cook. "IF you can't even cook egg's to order you don't need to be cooking!" Who's your boss I want to talk to him" Cook pointed to the guy at the register.

Told the cook to go get him, "get him yourself I'm cooking". Bill went over and talked to the guy, they came back and I heard Bill ask: "do you want to sell this place?" "sure" "how much?"
Told him a price, Bill wrote him a check right there. Called the cook over and told him: "you're fired I own the place now" He looked at his boss and he just nodded.

I left and went to the shop and told the mechanics and some other drivers about it. They told me about the same kind of deal of the motel next door to the cafe. Bill had a little dog and they refused to rent him a room, so he bought the place and posted a sign: Pets welcome.

Old Bill's been dead at least 25-30yrs now. Far as I know the company has closed up too, I haven't been to Odessa since about '74.

George

Tipping is more & less predominate where people are underpaid or get no pay at all. Tipping is where you have poor contractwise relations between the employer and employee(or slave)...

quote:

Originally posted by jens poulsen:
Tipping is more & less predominate where people are underpaid or get no pay at all. Tipping is where you have poor contractwise relations between the employer and employee(or slave)...

Not necessarily true - at least not in the US..

Much depends on the business but keep in mind a LARGE portion of cash tip money is never reported - right or wrong it equates to tax free income, sometimes that can have a HUGE impact.. Also, when my daughter was younger she worked at a sports bar as a waitress and bartender. Their tips were all accounted for in payroll so no tax freebies but when she was offered a manager's role with a small 38k a year salary it would have meant a BIG pay cut.. Those girls made damn good money in tips if they WORKED HARD.. Many repeat customers and groups that came every week and always sat in her area. Between the small hourly wage and tips she made in the high 40s - not much but not bad for a 21yr old kid in college!

I always tip well for good service and tip my PHs and staff very well but I hate the concept - it always feels awkward.. not enough, too much and so on...

I have always tipped the PHs, $100.00 bucks a day for days that we hunt. I do not believe in giving a straight percentage of the daily rate, as I have never been on a hunt where I hunted all day for every day of the number of days paid for (usually a set minimum for DG).

I don't believe in tipping the PH, for days we spend doing things that are more for the convenience of the PH/outfitter rather than actually hunting.

I do believe the trackers should probably get a bigger tip. This year I gave about $160.00 dollars each to the two trackers (money well-deserved IMO), and another $90.00 bucks to the driver (he saved me a lot of steps), and another $60.00 to the game scout, who carried my rifle many times without complaint, and jumped in to help the trackers at every chance. In retrospect, I wish I had given him more.

I tipped a total of $200.00 to the camp staff (actually ran by a different outfitter). I got the feeling the camp manager thought I should have thrown in another $100.00 bucks ($100.00 was for her, and the other $100.00 was to be split up for the staff).

I budgeted $2000.00 for tips and I went through that pretty fast. Perhaps, tipping is getting out of hand, considering how much you paid for the hunt and the trophy fees. Something to think about.

BH63

Below is from the CMS website. I appreciate that they are upfront.

After having been surprised at the large number of staff that expect tips, my plan going forward is to just ask for something like the below upfront so I can build it into the cost of a safari and, importantly, when comparing operators.

I took out the cameraman below and came up with $265 a day, or $2,650 for a 10 day safari. Not insignificant.


CMS
GRATUITIES
This can be an awkward subject but we do understandably get allot of requests for guidance and the below is strictly an average! The below are figures we have seen over the last five years, some people leave more and some less. We must emphasise as with all gratuities none of our staff expect a tip and obviously they need to be performance based.

The camps generally have six or seven staff and then of course you will have two trackers, a driver and a game scout on your hunting vehicle. We hope that you find this of some use!

Camp Staff +/- USD per hunting day
Manager 20
Cook 15
Waiter 1 10
Waiter 2 10
General Hand 10
Skinner 15
Assistant skinner 10


Hunting Vehicle +/- USD per hunting day
Professional Hunter 100
Cameraman 30
Tracker 1 20
Tracker 2 20
Driver 20
Game Scout 15

Do I read the above correct? $2950 in tips for a 10 day hunt. Plains game or buffalo or elephant--is there a sliding scale for the amount of the hunt cost?
Just curious?
Cal
PS. Does the hunter and staff put in more time on an elephant or lion hunt as compared to a plains game hunt? I mean everyone gets up at the same time and has dinner at the same time regardless of game sought.

I came back from a Amazon fishing trip. The recommended tip was $200 for the staff and $200 for the native indian guide.

The service in food quality, drinks, laundry was exceptional and this place is remote. Nothing can be driven in.

The native indian guide worked 5 times harder than anyone in Africa navigating the river. Pushing the boat thru rapids was tough physical work.

I tipped him well (relative to the recommended amount) but nothing compared to what staff and ph in africa get tipped. I also gave him nearly everything i had including my duffel bag and he was very grateful.

The add on in africa - tips, road transfers, dip and pack, trophy shipping, numerous misc line items (gun rental fee ect.) add another 25% to a hunt in a heart beat.

Mike

I hear you Mike
This tipping in Africa is out of hands

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
I hear you Mike
This tipping in Africa is out of hands

Its become a service charge. I will pay it and get on with life.

But when I have to make a choice should I hunt africa or fish in the amazon. I do include the service charge in calculating my bang for $$. Africa looks more and more as a poor bang for my discretionary vacation buck.

Saying that there are places in Africa than are a great bang for the buck - tholo for example. Where they dont charge you a rental fee for rifle and service in camp is first rate.

Mike

. . . tipping, few subjects can result in more of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I came back from a Amazon fishing trip. The recommended tip was $200 for the staff and $200 for the native indian guide.

The service in food quality, drinks, laundry was exceptional and this place is remote. Nothing can be driven in.

The native indian guide worked 5 times harder than anyone in Africa navigating the river. Pushing the boat thru rapids was tough physical work.

I tipped him well (relative to the recommended amount) but nothing compared to what staff and ph in africa get tipped. I also gave him nearly everything i had including my duffel bag and he was very grateful.

The add on in africa - tips, road transfers, dip and pack, trophy shipping, numerous misc line items (gun rental fee ect.) add another 25% to a hunt in a heart beat.

Mike

Happy New Year Mike.

I agree with you 1000%. If you juxtapose the Amazon trip we just did and a typical 10 day Safari, it simply doesn't pencil out. For me, when I'm in Africa hunting, we (except those guys here with more skills than the PH) simply follow a bunch of guys around in the bush until they say "Shoot that."

The Amazon trip requires you to have actual fishing skill and gear knowledge gained through experience. The guides do nothing but manage the boat, they offer no advise, tie no knots, and most of them don't even offer assistance in the landing of fish.

The value for the sporting dollar is exponentially higher in Brazil than in Africa. Personally, when I'm on a huge Redtail or Piraiba, I get the same thrill, the same adrenaline rush as I do hunting Buffalo.

The recommended tips list that Cal commented on, would pay for about half of an entire fishing trip. INCLUDING the tips.

Africa: No skils, no problem.
Amazon: No skills, no fish.

That said, I still enjoy the hell out of the bush. I just limit my trips to one every other year or so, instead of two to three per year as I did in years prior.

Had a message from one of our outfitters.

He said he expected a tip of 15-20%. If during the year he did not get it, he puts his price up accordingly the following year.

Some here suggest that this tip is supposed to be a service charge.

Well, as I understand it, there is a difference between the two.

A service charge one has no choice but to pay - I actually think the whole idea of a service charge is very silly - why not have the price all inclusive right from the start??

A tip is supposed to be at the client's discretion, and he is not obliged to pay it.

quote:

Camp Staff +/- USD per hunting day
Manager 20
Cook 15
Waiter 1 10
Waiter 2 10
General Hand 10
Skinner 15
Assistant skinner 10


Hunting Vehicle +/- USD per hunting day
Professional Hunter 100
Cameraman 30
Tracker 1 20
Tracker 2 20
Driver 20
Game Scout 15

I wonder how much these people get paid by the outfitter? is the tip all they get?
Peter

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I came back from a Amazon fishing trip. The recommended tip was $200 for the staff and $200 for the native indian guide.

The service in food quality, drinks, laundry was exceptional and this place is remote. Nothing can be driven in.

The native indian guide worked 5 times harder than anyone in Africa navigating the river. Pushing the boat thru rapids was tough physical work.

I tipped him well (relative to the recommended amount) but nothing compared to what staff and ph in africa get tipped. I also gave him nearly everything i had including my duffel bag and he was very grateful.

The add on in africa - tips, road transfers, dip and pack, trophy shipping, numerous misc line items (gun rental fee ect.) add another 25% to a hunt in a heart beat.

Mike

Happy New Year Mike.

I agree with you 1000%. If you juxtapose the Amazon trip we just did and a typical 10 day Safari, it simply doesn't pencil out. For me, when I'm in Africa hunting, we (except those guys here with more skills than the PH) simply follow a bunch of guys around in the bush until they say "Shoot that."

The Amazon trip requires you to have actual fishing skill and gear knowledge gained through experience. The guides do nothing but manage the boat, they offer no advise, tie no knots, and most of them don't even offer assistance in the landing of fish.

The value for the sporting dollar is exponentially higher in Brazil than in Africa. Personally, when I'm on a huge Redtail or Piraiba, I get the same thrill, the same adrenaline rush as I do hunting Buffalo.

The recommended tips list that Cal commented on, would pay for about half of an entire fishing trip. INCLUDING the tips.

Africa: No skils, no problem.
Amazon: No skills, no fish.

That said, I still enjoy the hell out of the bush. I just limit my trips to one every other year or so, instead of two to three per year as I did in years prior.

African hunting may be the most packaged outdoor vacation out there. There is minimal requirement of client skill. Compare an Africa hunt to a Alaska dall sheep hunt and you see the difference. No African client is asked about health, physical abilities, shooting skill, endurance - if the wire clears a plan will be made to accommodate the client.

In zim especially I like to tip the camp staff etc - the dollars relative to the safari are not that significant (they are not insignificant either) but given than Mugabe and zanu-pf already have their grubby little hands all over my safari costs - I like giving cash directly to staff.

Mike

Peter - Most countries have labor laws that specify the minimum salaries for safari workers. In Namibia starting camp staff salaries are $125 USD a month, trackers and skinners make $200 USD a month and Master Hunters in the $325 USD a month range. Again, these are minimum base salaries. Obviously tips are important to the staff, however, they can create a lot of problems as well. Some guys get a fist full of money and scamper off for weeks on end. No bueno. That is why it's generally a good idea to let the PH do the dispersal of staff tip money. (Unfortunately, some operators simply take tip money and use it to pay staff salaries.)

Also, tipping in USD creates problems as getting to the bank to exchange it can be a challenge.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:

quote:

Camp Staff +/- USD per hunting day
Manager 20
Cook 15
Waiter 1 10
Waiter 2 10
General Hand 10
Skinner 15
Assistant skinner 10


Hunting Vehicle +/- USD per hunting day
Professional Hunter 100
Cameraman 30
Tracker 1 20
Tracker 2 20
Driver 20
Game Scout 15

I wonder how much these people get paid by the outfitter? is the tip all they get?
Peter

One of our game scouts told me his salary is 150 US dollars a month.

So if he gets 15 per day tip, that is 300% his salary!

WOW!

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I came back from a Amazon fishing trip. The recommended tip was $200 for the staff and $200 for the native indian guide.

The service in food quality, drinks, laundry was exceptional and this place is remote. Nothing can be driven in.

The native indian guide worked 5 times harder than anyone in Africa navigating the river. Pushing the boat thru rapids was tough physical work.

I tipped him well (relative to the recommended amount) but nothing compared to what staff and ph in africa get tipped. I also gave him nearly everything i had including my duffel bag and he was very grateful.

The add on in africa - tips, road transfers, dip and pack, trophy shipping, numerous misc line items (gun rental fee ect.) add another 25% to a hunt in a heart beat.

Mike

Happy New Year Mike.

I agree with you 1000%. If you juxtapose the Amazon trip we just did and a typical 10 day Safari, it simply doesn't pencil out. For me, when I'm in Africa hunting, we (except those guys here with more skills than the PH) simply follow a bunch of guys around in the bush until they say "Shoot that."

The Amazon trip requires you to have actual fishing skill and gear knowledge gained through experience. The guides do nothing but manage the boat, they offer no advise, tie no knots, and most of them don't even offer assistance in the landing of fish.

The value for the sporting dollar is exponentially higher in Brazil than in Africa. Personally, when I'm on a huge Redtail or Piraiba, I get the same thrill, the same adrenaline rush as I do hunting Buffalo.

The recommended tips list that Cal commented on, would pay for about half of an entire fishing trip. INCLUDING the tips.

Africa: No skils, no problem.
Amazon: No skills, no fish.

That said, I still enjoy the hell out of the bush. I just limit my trips to one every other year or so, instead of two to three per year as I did in years prior.

Mike why not just tip the normal amount ? Give it a few years you Americans have made the indians want 2K tips for a week of fishing.

We have members here that said they tip well over 10K for a few weeks of hunting..I just not get it.

After my trip for polar bear/wolf etc in Artic I tipped just some of my gear, stayed for 3 weeks. Last day we had a big party with all the locals and many of the guides that guided for 30 years or more said that they did not have a single client that stayed for more than 3 days after shooting a bear. They were impressed and invited me back for fishing or whaling free of charge. If everyone here is trying to "buy" your guide with tips I would recomend to give him the tip before you start hunting

It is really a awful culture, not necessarily the tipping itself, but the amounts expected
People in US don't get that much tips from single hunter
It is a vicious cycle for sure

Anton:

I tipped over the recommended amount cause the Indian Guide Abel worked his butt off. The river was low and he was pushing my fat ass at 220 pounds (I need to lose 20 pounds) and my fishing partner at 260 pounds thru some pretty rough waters. This was pure physical work and he did it without complaining or making a show out of it.

He was also a true conservationist - not the typical bs we are sold. He actually cared for the fish. Did it impact my trip - yes - my fishing pictures all have him with the fish cause he did not like taking the fish out of the water for more than 3-4 seconds after he dehooked it. I had no issues with it -memories dominate pictures for me.

He also helped recover a rod and reel that was taken off the boat by a 7.75 pound piranha. i was willing to write off the $500 rig and keep fishing.

More than the $ - I gave him nearly all the the stuff I had including my duffel bag. Came back like a homeless guy with all my stuff in a plastic bag.

Abel deserved the tip - a lot of guys in Africa expect it and don't often earn it.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I came back from a Amazon fishing trip. The recommended tip was $200 for the staff and $200 for the native indian guide.

The service in food quality, drinks, laundry was exceptional and this place is remote. Nothing can be driven in.

The native indian guide worked 5 times harder than anyone in Africa navigating the river. Pushing the boat thru rapids was tough physical work.

I tipped him well (relative to the recommended amount) but nothing compared to what staff and ph in africa get tipped. I also gave him nearly everything i had including my duffel bag and he was very grateful.

The add on in africa - tips, road transfers, dip and pack, trophy shipping, numerous misc line items (gun rental fee ect.) add another 25% to a hunt in a heart beat.

Mike

Happy New Year Mike.

I agree with you 1000%. If you juxtapose the Amazon trip we just did and a typical 10 day Safari, it simply doesn't pencil out. For me, when I'm in Africa hunting, we (except those guys here with more skills than the PH) simply follow a bunch of guys around in the bush until they say "Shoot that."

The Amazon trip requires you to have actual fishing skill and gear knowledge gained through experience. The guides do nothing but manage the boat, they offer no advise, tie no knots, and most of them don't even offer assistance in the landing of fish.

The value for the sporting dollar is exponentially higher in Brazil than in Africa. Personally, when I'm on a huge Redtail or Piraiba, I get the same thrill, the same adrenaline rush as I do hunting Buffalo.

The recommended tips list that Cal commented on, would pay for about half of an entire fishing trip. INCLUDING the tips.

Africa: No skils, no problem.
Amazon: No skills, no fish.

That said, I still enjoy the hell out of the bush. I just limit my trips to one every other year or so, instead of two to three per year as I did in years prior.

Mike why not just tip the normal amount ? Give it a few years you Americans have made the indians want 2K tips for a week of fishing.

We have members here that said they tip well over 10K for a few weeks of hunting..I just not get it.

After my trip for polar bear/wolf etc in Artic I tipped just some of my gear, stayed for 3 weeks. Last day we had a big party with all the locals and many of the guides that guided for 30 years or more said that they did not have a single client that stayed for more than 3 days after shooting a bear. They were impressed and invited me back for fishing or whaling free of charge. If everyone here is trying to "buy" your guide with tips I would recomend to give him the tip before you start hunting

Hi Anton. I'll take a swing at the question. I tip these guides higher than "the norm" because my expectations are much, MUCH higher than the norm. This year I had a new guide, he was amazing, exceeded my expectations. However the conditions were good (for boat movement) and the fishing was relatively easy. I still tipped more than the recommended amount.

Last year, this wasn't the case. The fish were not cooperating, AT ALL. I and my partner knew we had to change our tactics drastically to catch fish. We wound up spending half our nights out on the river, sleeping in Hammocks or in tents that are strategically placed on the river.

The water was at the lowest level I had ever seen it. every rapid was portaged. every single one, every single time. We flat worked ourselves to death to keep on the fish, but we did. We completely devastated poor Mauricio that week. He earned a very healthy tip. I have fished with him 4 of the 5 years I've done this trip. He understands my desire to stay on fish all day and he complies. We communicate with no spoken word.

This is where I see the power of tipping according to performance. If I had one of the other guys that just goes through the motions all day, I would leave the recommended tip.

I will also admit, there is some selfishness involved. I know that I will get my choice of guides when I roll into camp, it does make a difference.

CMS has given a suggestion and a client can or cannot go by it. Basically 90% of clients ask me for a ball park figure on tips. Remember as we've discussed many times tips are not compulsory and if you feel strongly that tipping is wrong don't give one. On the other hand if you don't tip you need to own that and not complain if it is obvious the camp crew is disappointed.

To me the CMS tip is a little high on what I assume is a 10 day buffalo hunt but its not outrageous either. This 15%-20% tip that Saeed mentioned is to me outrageous. I base tips on number of days in the hunt, are we hunting PG or DG and how hard the crew worked. I give no value to the cost of the hunt as far as the tip is concerned.

Mark

. . . with apologies for the poor grammar of someone else.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:

quote:

Camp Staff +/- USD per hunting day
Manager 20
Cook 15
Waiter 1 10
Waiter 2 10
General Hand 10
Skinner 15
Assistant skinner 10


Hunting Vehicle +/- USD per hunting day
Professional Hunter 100
Cameraman 30
Tracker 1 20
Tracker 2 20
Driver 20
Game Scout 15

I wonder how much these people get paid by the outfitter? is the tip all they get?
Peter

One of our game scouts told me his salary is 150 US dollars a month.

So if he gets 15 per day tip, that is 300% his salary!

WOW!

Yep, some operators are using client tip money to pay camp salaries. So when you think you are helping the staff all you are really doing is helping the operator.

I think its at the point where it just needs to be discussed up front when evaluating a safari operator.

While tips are often expressed as optional, when you have just spent a fun 10 days with a bunch of folks you don't want to feel like you are somehow stiffing them. While we can all walk away and give no tip, makes for a crappy feeling at the end of what is supposed to be a fun trip.

I'm just going to get really clear up front on the amounts...down to the asst skinner and cooks's cousin. It will be part of how I evaluate the trip upfront.

I always expected to pay my PH a tip, its paying everyone in camp that really took me by surprise.

So, what does CMS tell it's clients from other countries? I don't want to be a patsy.
Peter.

10generation,

Just for my own curiosity are you saying that one of the criteria for choosing a safari operator would be their suggested tip? I personally would not give that any consideration as I have a pretty good idea of what I'm comfortable with tipping regardless of the what kind of safari I'm on. It's pretty simple. Just tip the PH what you want and let him distribute what your comfortable with for the rest of the crew. I've never thought it should be the client's responsibility to worry about if x,y,z employee of the camp got an appropriate tip. Tipping should be part of the fun not something that generates a bunch of angst.

Mark

Mark,

I think the reason this thread is 13 pages long is that is does create a lot of angst.

Its a crappy feeling to have different expectations on a tip when you ask your PH for guidance at the end of a safari and are given a list of 10 people and how much you should tip them per day.

Can't change that, but can try to understand it up front so I can put it into my decision making.

I'd love for an outfitter to market themselves as having a no tipping policy - think it would stand out. Or even just a no tips outside of your PH.

I know one of the reasons I use Uber vs a Taxi is I can get out of the car and leave, don't need to think about what tip to leave, etc.

I think it would be great if tips were truly not expected and everything we give was appreciated but I think the safari industry has clearly evolved in a much different direction. I credit CMS for being upfront about it, but its a perfect example of what is expected today on many/most african safari's - tips per day across a large number of people - thirteen people in their case. Where else in the world do any of us go and tip more than 2-3 people?

While it will not be easily changed, I think the first step is getting it clear upfront so we can know what the real cost of a safari is if we don't want to turn off the people with whom we have spent 10 days eating every meal, hunting, telling stories, etc.

I know you represent the Duckworths and I'd like to go there sometime. Have met Neil and others at the shows. Really good guys. If I go I want to pay the norm, not give them less than the other hunters. Call it human nature or whatever, but that's how I personally feel about it.

Don't think we can change it anytime soon, but we can be better informed and incorporate into our decision making up front. Its just a cost component of a safari today if you feel the way I do, just like dip/pack, cost of the ride to camp, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:

So, what does CMS tell it's clients from other countries? I don't want to be a patsy.

Peter.

Only Americans suffer tipping anxiety. No other culture really bothers with it. In addition, most Africans themselves do not tip. Ask your PH if he tips when he goes to an African restaurant. After he stops laughing he will tell you no...

Most correctly believe that prices and salary payments are set to properly pay, retain, and reward staff.

There are, at times, a staggering number of people to tip. I do not recall the number of people on the last safari but the list was long. I am guessing 15-20.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
There are, at times, a staggering number of people to tip. I do not recall the number of people on the last safari but the list was long. I am guessing 15-20.

Did you have to book an extra observer day at the end just to get through the line of people with their hand out?

Tipping is such an arcane and complex issue it is not surprising that some seem to struggle with it . . . if you want to tip, tip . . . if you do not want to tip, don't tip.

Folks I see CMS "Tipping Schedule" is being used for a healthy debate! Firstly let me say the reason we have put that on our website and some of my thoughts. I will not be going into a debate on this subject but hope this helps.

1/Almost every client asked either in email or in camp for a guide line- having it there for them to see before the hunt makes it easy if they are planning on tipping. If they are not planning on tipping then its null and void.

2/Its a guide line- we have clients that tip nothing ,some less, some the same amount and others way higher. It is the average taken over several years.

As we stated TIPPING IS AT YOUR DISCRETION - if you want to tip- tip. If you don't want to Tip- don't . If you want to tip less- tip less If want to tip more- by all means. This does not and will never effect the effort that your Ph or your camp staff give you. CMS and most other operators are way too professional for that.

3/Peter- not sure what your comments are ref other countries. BUT IF a non American asks about tipping he gets exactly the same answer as an American and he is pointed to the Tipping suggestions with the understanding that it is TOTALY up to them to decide how much if at all he is prepared / wants to tip.

4/Like everyone else in Zimbabwe we have very strict labour laws that we have to follow regards salaries- so comments that operators do not pay their staff as they rely on tips to survive is unfounded. The alternative is we simply put the daily rates up by $250/day and have a NO TIP policy! I not sure how that would go with prospective clients!!!

5/Saeed I am not sure on your maths on the game scout- on a 10 day hunt if he has been great- i.e. been a member of the team and worked his arse off I suggest 100-150 for him. He is an important member of the team and believe me they can make life miserable if they wanted. This does not equate to 3000% of his salary.

Bottom Line Folks this was there as an aid and as we have always said it has to be performance based and TOTALY AT THE DISCRETION OF THE CLIENT- NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO PAY A TIP

ps OPUS I dine out a lot in Zimbabwe at all sorts of restaurants as do all my buddies- most of them PH and we always tip. IF the SERVICE is good the waiter gets 20%.If the service is bad then the waiter gets nothing!

Hope that helps- always a touchy subject and it will be my last comment on it! Happy new year and hope to see many of you at the shows! All the best Buzz

quote:

Only Americans suffer tipping anxiety. No other culture really bothers with it.

I agree Opus1. That was why I asked the question. We seem to obsess over it. Because it is not part of the list price we want to be fair. We also seem to tolerate paying people less, because we know they will get a tip! Therefore tipping for us, is not as optional as Buzz would have us believe. I was just wondering what the views of the French, Germans etc. were. Certainly with the prices as they are now, I don't see too many "regular folks" from the continent going to Africa for DG. Here, we seem to have "regular folks" going to Africa.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:

Therefore tipping for us, is not as optional as Buzz would have us believe.

What exactly is not optional about a tip?

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:

quote:

Only Americans suffer tipping anxiety. No other culture really bothers with it.

I agree Opus1. That was why I asked the question. We seem to obsess over it. Because it is not part of the list price we want to be fair. We also seem to tolerate paying people less, because we know they will get a tip! Therefore tipping for us, is not as optional as Buzz would have us believe. I was just wondering what the views of the French, Germans etc. were. Certainly with the prices as they are now, I don't see too many "regular folks" from the continent going to Africa for DG. Here, we seem to have "regular folks" going to Africa.
Peter.

Trust me, the staff knows when an American client is in camp and when a German is in camp. With one client they know money is in their future, the other they know they will get a firm handshake at the end of the hunt. I'll let you guess which is which...

And Buzz, kudos and a huge backslap for tipping your waiters.

Mike, please read the previous sentence in my post:

quote:

paying people less, because we know they will get a tip

Let me spell it out, seeing as you don't seem to understand. If the employer pays someone less because they know that the person will get a tip, that is NOT the same as paying someone a regular wage and then whatever tip they get is extra. So, again, I do not tip a bank teller even though they may give me excellent service, but I do tip a waiter/waitress in a restaurant when they give me excellent service. ALSO, in many restaurants the waiter must share the tip with the cooking staff. In the bank case, there is absolutely no expectation that the employee will get a tip, therefore the wage is set appropriately. Sorry, I am tired of spelling this out.

Peter.