quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I have a hard time understanding why hunt reports should have a "no criticism" rule applied to them. Suppose someone files a hunt report that is totally critical of an outfitter; does that outfitter not have the right to respond? What if a hunter acknowledges something illegal - like flying and hunting on the same day in Alaska (wow fellas, shot a huge 10 foot bear after seeing him as we were landing! Really exciting!)?

If a hunt report portrays something that is misleading I see no reason why it should not be called out. The back and forth Steve did was a little over the top, I will admit. But let's face it, Andrew implied the same thing as Steve although a bit more thinly veiled. Mike J, to use your words, "any lion hunter worth his salt knew exactly what Andrew meant."

As for winning arguments, no one has won anything. There are plenty of folks who sit on both sides of the hunt report issue.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Frostbit

RE your question; I think I've just answered it when I said how I feel about misleading hunt reports such as this was.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I thought my previous answer made it perfectly clear but obviously not.

Fewer hunt reports because I or others choose to criticise some reports? Yes and no.

I'd like to think that my comments will mean fewer canned 'hunt' hunt reports made and fewer such 'hunts' sold.

Fewer fair chase hunt reports made?

I've no idea because I can't see into the future nor can I speak for what others may say, think or do but one thing you can be sure of is you'll never see me criticising a fair chase hunt report here or anywhere else.

Whether people choose to post reports of fair chase hunts is entirely up to them.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
The difference between my question and your questions is I asked you if you beieved that report was truthful and you are asking me to predict what others will do in the future and that is of course impossible.

Personally, and as is common knowledge here, I have a problem with the shooting of pen bred lions etc... esp when freshly released and with people offering such 'hunts' as wild.


I do not have a problem with baiting big, WILD cats or hunting plains game etc on large fenced properties.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
The difference between my question and your questions is I asked you if you beieved that report was truthful and you are asking me to predict what others will do in the future and that is of course impossible.

Personally, and as is common knowledge here, I have a problem with the shooting of pen bred lions etc... esp when freshly released and with people offering such 'hunts' as wild.


I do not have a problem with baiting big, WILD cats or hunting plains game etc on large fenced properties.

As to your last question, I cannot predict what others will do in the future but if their hunt was a fair chase hunt then I for one would not criticise it and have never criticised such a hunt in the past.

A yes or no answer is obviously impossible for the above reasons.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
If someone else supports such 'hunts' they have the freedom to debate their point of view.

I've never seen any rule that says otherwise here.... have you?

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
You seem to be saying two things Steve....one that you did us a service pointing out that it was a captive-raised lion because people could be duped and then go on to say that you'll trash on all non-free range hunts even if the person is honest up front. While I appreciate your passion for the subject...I don't see how trashing on someone up front and honest in a report serves any purpose but to chase people away from AR. Imagine if we all did that with our personal dislikes.....we could eliminate the hunt report section I guess.

If an outfitter is unjustly trashed or a hunt misrepresented with the intent of selling it you may have a point but just to trash on some honest guy because you don't like the way he hunts....I don't get it. Having seen one site already trashed by that attitude, I'd hate to see the same thing here but it's headed that direction.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by shakari:
If someone else supports such 'hunts' they have the freedom to debate their point of view.

I've never seen any rule that says otherwise here.... have you?

quote:

Do you think it is right for someone to offer a canned hunt and claim it to be wild or to make a hunt report and claim a canned hunt to be wild?

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Do you think it is right for someone to offer a canned hunt and claim it to be wild or to make a hunt report and claim a canned hunt to be wild?

If you read my previous post you'd see I already addressed that.

What you conveniently failed to address is the practice of trashing on people that are up front and honest about their hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Show me where I have trashed an honest hunt fair chase report?

quote:

When is the last time you have seen that?


Waiting.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
From our report in 2013

"I'd say that virtually all lions are under high fence in South Africa. While far from an expert we did considerable research before committing to a lion hunt with Serapa. It seems some SA lion hunts are quite literally a fish in a barrel hunt. They are released into a small area the day of the hunt and then "hunted" with a virtual guarantee.

In other places like Serapa, they always have a certain number of lions roaming the property. The property is 47,000 acres but is currently split in two by a road so the lions would basically be an a 20,000+ acre high fenced area although Apie is attempting to go through the proper channels to have the cross fence removed so it was a contiguous 47,000 acres.

We saw lion tracks nearly every day and on two occasions saw lions. No doubt this is a put and take lion hunt but you are hunting lions that have been released on the property for a length of time and for all intensive purposes act like wild lions.

Hunts are tracking hunts on foot and shots are typically close range and charges often ensue. Is it a free range hunt? No. Is it a fish in a barrel hunt.....from our limited experience I would say no."

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
I think the fact that you resort to childish emoticons every time a question is asked of you that you don't want to/won't answer says everything I need to know. Have a good evening or day or whatever it is where you are.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:
Personally I do not think that any of the players would have tweet to say if……… "I booked a 'hunt' for a pen raised lion in (RSA or wherever) and this is what happened………… " or

"We offer lion hunts for pen raise lions and guarantee they will be release …….. days before you hunt."

When is the last time you have seen that?


Waiting.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

Do you also believe in the tooth fairy?

quote:

Originally posted by The Artistry of Wildlife:

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:
Personally I do not think that any of the players would have tweet to say if……… "I booked a 'hunt' for a pen raised lion in (RSA or wherever) and this is what happened………… " or

"We offer lion hunts for pen raise lions and guarantee they will be release …….. days before you hunt."

When is the last time you have seen that?


Waiting.

LOL Now Skyline LOL ... I booked a trip to Africa to collect a White lion. Notice a say Collect not hunt.The top line of my bucket list. I wanted it for my studio and it's legal to do. Unethical in some people's opinion, but you know what they say about opinions....There like ******** everyone has one. Let my ethics be between me my god.

I was never told by my PH or anyone that this was a wild lion. Was told area size, that he would be released per S A laws and regulations. It took yes, only 3 days. Was happy with the experience. I'm sure now raised lions do have a pissy attitude , you kinda notice that when your tracking and 2 Ph's with double rifles are in front of you and behind the trackers and another 2 Ph's with the their doubles are behind you so close you can feel their breath on your neck.

Over 1 million+ game animals are shot under fence in North America a year, exotics,deer, etc. So I had no issue with doing this in Africa. I've hunted fenced plains game.

I've road shotgun at midnight in the semi's from the game catchers lots delivering 45"-50'Kudu and 35-40" Gemsbok and most all other captured game to safari operations all over the east cape and seen them shot the next day by other hunters.

So I wasn't snowed or tricked or told a bunch of bull. I wanted a white lion and went and got one. Ph was happy, I was happy, Outfit where we were was happy.

Was on over 22,000 acres in west S A fenced and electrified, We drove for miles and hours and cut thru many roads for three days and jumped him each day. Trackers picked up tracks a few times, either not the lion we were looking for or tracks much to old to track from there.
Jumped him a total of 8 times and if he was drugged he moved quite well. Well enough for us to get back in the truck and move onto more road to head him off because he was moving way to fast to stay on foot and find him again. He was moving thru crap you couldn't see but maybe 10-20 yards in any direction. We finally came up on him on day three in some real thick brush again and he jumped. He went 1/2 mile and we found him from his growling. My PH's said he's getting pissed because we are pushing him a lot. I don't know if that was true, Don't really care if it was or wasn't. All I know is that 3 of the 4 Ph's had their doubles shouldered. At this point I could only see his face . He was lying head to the left and body to my right.I have 2 Ph's with doubles on my left shouldered and pointed directly at him 60 yards away. 2 Ph's to my right, one asked "Can you see him and get the shot?". I stated i can only see his head and his full face, eyes and nose. One PH quietly said "If you have a shot thru the brush, it's thin put it on his nose and slide 18" to the right and you'll be right behind his shoulder.So I did ...BANG. Jumps up like a bat out of hell spins right Runs 40 yards off to my right.... drops dead. No PH shot. So yep I killed a raised white lion and I knocked off the top line of my bucket list always wanted one. No wild lion, No cattle killer, No lion that wandered off the park, No BS from anyone in South Africa selling a wild lion hunt. A raised to kill lion.
And thanks Roland for the work on the picture. Notice no gun in the picture. It was a collection safari not a hunt. I guess they could have just euthanized him while I was there, but he died just as fast and humane by my hand.

And I enjoyed the walk.

As a hunter I do not pass judgement on anyone legally sport hunting or shooting in any fashion.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines: ...still waiting to see some Shakari lion pictures or a Shakari dangerous game hunt report. Surely they exist...

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
That is impressive to be sure. One buffalo in a hunt report that is ten years old. Thanks for sharing. I was certain that there had to be some serious dangerous game hunting experience from the man who literally wrote the book on professional hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by The Artistry of Wildlife:

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:
Personally I do not think that any of the players would have tweet to say if……… "I booked a 'hunt' for a pen raised lion in (RSA or wherever) and this is what happened………… " or

"We offer lion hunts for pen raise lions and guarantee they will be release …….. days before you hunt."

When is the last time you have seen that?


Waiting.

LOL Now Skyline LOL ... I booked a trip to Africa to collect a White lion. Notice a say Collect not hunt.The top line of my bucket list. I wanted it for my studio and it's legal to do. Unethical in some people's opinion, but you know what they say about opinions....There like ******** everyone has one. Let my ethics be between me my god.

I was never told by my PH or anyone that this was a wild lion. Was told area size, that he would be released per S A laws and regulations. It took yes, only 3 days. Was happy with the experience. I'm sure now raised lions do have a pissy attitude , you kinda notice that when your tracking and 2 Ph's with double rifles are in front of you and behind the trackers and another 2 Ph's with the their doubles are behind you so close you can feel their breath on your neck.

Over 1 million+ game animals are shot under fence in North America a year, exotics,deer, etc. So I had no issue with doing this in Africa. I've hunted fenced plains game.

I've road shotgun at midnight in the semi's from the game catchers lots delivering 45"-50'Kudu and 35-40" Gemsbok and most all other captured game to safari operations all over the east cape and seen them shot the next day by other hunters.

So I wasn't snowed or tricked or told a bunch of bull. I wanted a white lion and went and got one. Ph was happy, I was happy, Outfit where we were was happy.

Was on over 22,000 acres in west S A fenced and electrified, We drove for miles and hours and cut thru many roads for three days and jumped him each day. Trackers picked up tracks a few times, either not the lion we were looking for or tracks much to old to track from there.
Jumped him a total of 8 times and if he was drugged he moved quite well. Well enough for us to get back in the truck and move onto more road to head him off because he was moving way to fast to stay on foot and find him again. He was moving thru crap you couldn't see but maybe 10-20 yards in any direction. We finally came up on him on day three in some real thick brush again and he jumped. He went 1/2 mile and we found him from his growling. My PH's said he's getting pissed because we are pushing him a lot. I don't know if that was true, Don't really care if it was or wasn't. All I know is that 3 of the 4 Ph's had their doubles shouldered. At this point I could only see his face . He was lying head to the left and body to my right.I have 2 Ph's with doubles on my left shouldered and pointed directly at him 60 yards away. 2 Ph's to my right, one asked "Can you see him and get the shot?". I stated i can only see his head and his full face, eyes and nose. One PH quietly said "If you have a shot thru the brush, it's thin put it on his nose and slide 18" to the right and you'll be right behind his shoulder.So I did ...BANG. Jumps up like a bat out of hell spins right Runs 40 yards off to my right.... drops dead. No PH shot. So yep I killed a raised white lion and I knocked off the top line of my bucket list always wanted one. No wild lion, No cattle killer, No lion that wandered off the park, No BS from anyone in South Africa selling a wild lion hunt. A raised to kill lion.
And thanks Roland for the work on the picture. Notice no gun in the picture. It was a collection safari not a hunt. I guess they could have just euthanized him while I was there, but he died just as fast and humane by my hand.

And I enjoyed the walk.

As a hunter I do not pass judgement on anyone legally sport hunting or shooting in any fashion.