quote:

That is all true.

But, what about the glory hunters who co7uld not careless how they shoot the animal they desire?

I bet you anything that an incredible amount of Top SCI Trophies are shot in one shay way or another.

Bloody hell, there is a whole industry in South Africa catering just for those "look at me" crowds.

Takes all kinds to make the world go round.....without a market there would be no suppliers that's for sure. I don't worry too much about record books.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
[QUOTE]

If that were the case, why did the breeder'assoc threaten to sue the minister if he introduced the proposed 6 month wilding period do you think?

He was so concerned about that threat, he removed lions from the schedule of dangerous animals!

There were a large number of reasons of which not wanting more Government intervention was the primary one but I suspect there are also many operators that could care less about the experience and only look at the bottom line. On the other hand, there are many operators that would like to create standards within the industry without the oversight of the government. I'm sure you understand that considering the record of the government in RSA recently.

That is all true.

But, what about the glory hunters who co7uld not careless how they shoot the animal they desire?

I bet you anything that an incredible amount of Top SCI Trophies are shot in one shay way or another.

Bloody hell, there is a whole industry in South Africa catering just for those "look at me" crowds.[/QUOTE


This is absolutely true. I know for an absolute fact that a big name seeking a prestigious award shot a lion in a cage on the back of a truck.

Perhaps this should be settled in a cage match?
No pun intended.

On a few matters of accuracy -

Firstly -

On the one hand it is easy to identify a canned lion as it has near perfect mane and very few (if any) facial scars. Then how come it is "Actually it's often not easy to tell the difference between a captive bred/released lion and one that isn't and even more difficult if you're a newbie to the whole thing. " ?????

Secondly -

If it costs $100 (one prey animal per day) to keep a lion "wild", then it should cost similar to keep it in captivity! Would a captive lion eat that much less? Would pet food or lower grade meat be cheaper?

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

Secondly -

If it costs $100 (one prey animal per day) to keep a lion "wild", then it should cost similar to keep it in captivity! Would a captive lion eat that much less? Would pet food or lower grade meat be cheaper?

Let's try and introduce logic into the discussion. It will get Steve upset.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
On a few matters of accuracy -

Firstly -

On the one hand it is easy to identify a canned lion as it has near perfect mane and very few (if any) facial scars. Then how come it is "Actually it's often not easy to tell the difference between a captive bred/released lion and one that isn't and even more difficult if you're a newbie to the whole thing. " ?????

Secondly -

If it costs $100 (one prey animal per day) to keep a lion "wild", then it should cost similar to keep it in captivity! Would a captive lion eat that much less? Would pet food or lower grade meat be cheaper?

Of course it would be cheaper. You don't see zoos serving wild animals to captive predators. I just did a quick search on what it costs to keep a lion in a zoo; answer was about 8-10K per year.

I can understand that cost estimate in a modern zoo where they can get low grade meat from abattoirs.

But in Africa??? $27 per day would not buy a lot of meat - considering that the cats do not eat much bone. Low grade commercial meat would still cost more than $1.20 per kg!. A lion would eat 20 kg + a day. It would be cheaper to feed them cull game animals!

What I do not get is the need for a wild lion to eat a whole animal each day!

Looking at it another way - you do not have one wild lion but a pride or a pair of males. They would need a specific territory. Would they not kill for the group like other wild lions?

In India a tiger is known to kill a 100+ kg spotted deer (chital) every 3 days or a larger 250 to 300 kg sambar every 5 days. That is live weight - so the 20 - 25kg meat per day seems right.

Some of you are looking at it the wrong way.

During a wilding period, the lion has to be self sustaining which means living in a large area and killing it's own food which is obviously the prey species that live in the wilding area. It should not be fed dead donkeys or cull animals etc because it is meant to be self sustaining.

A lion can't kill half an animal, it only kill a whole animal and secondly, it isn't about what it costs to feed a lion in a zoo, it's about what the cost of a prey game animal (that the lion will have to kill in order to be self sustaining) is to the landowner.

Working on the price from the O/Ps website, he sells an impala ram for USD400 and let's say the game auction price for a similar animal is half that at USD200. Factor in not all animals are bought at auction and some are bred on the game farm so to be kind, let's half that price again and you're at USD100 per animal.

USD100 x 180 days = USD18000.

Then factor in the relatively high cost of rearing the lion from birth to say 5 years old (whilst it's in the pen) and you'll see the total cost adds up dramatically. - If you worked on the previously quoted (zoo) price of USD8k - 10k per year and took the middle price of USD9k per year, that'd be a further USD45k for that time period but let's be kind and take just a third of that price which is USD15k.

Add that USD15k onto the USD18k for 6 months self sustainability and you have a total of USD33k and that's without any profit margin for outfitter, PH or agent.

And that's why the breeder's association didn't want a 6 month wilding period and why they threatened to sue Minister Van Schalkwyk if he introduced it.

The whole idea of letting off into the wild for some time is totally ridiculous.

It was done to bow to the antis.

I don't care how long a lion has been let off to fend for itself, if was bred on a farm it is not a wild animal!

Period.

Steve,
You've been very frugal and conservative with your rearing estimate or specifically the "wilding" period. What If the Lion kills a "rare exotic" or a prized antelope also roaming freely, like sable, roan etc.... One can more than double the price of the total you've calculated in one meal, at some of the current game prices being paid.
A lion roaming truly "free" on one of these ranches can cost a small fortune.

quote:

Originally posted by Wowo:
Steve,
You've been very frugal and conservative with your rearing estimate or specifically the "wilding" period. What If the Lion kills a "rare exotic" or a prized antelope also roaming freely, like sable, roan etc.... One can more than double the price of the total you've calculated in one meal, at some of the current game prices being paid.
A lion roaming truly "free" on one of these ranches can cost a small fortune.

I was being deliberately conservative in my price estimates but I agree, an occasional zebra, nyala, kudu and even sable could possibly be factored in...... though I doubt anyone would be daft enough to have sable in a lion wilding area.

quote:

Originally posted by Wowo:
Steve,
You've been very frugal and conservative with your rearing estimate or specifically the "wilding" period. What If the Lion kills a "rare exotic" or a prized antelope also roaming freely, like sable, roan etc.... One can more than double the price of the total you've calculated in one meal, at some of the current game prices being paid.
A lion roaming truly "free" on one of these ranches can cost a small fortune.

One of the reasons that this Lion was shot was because 'it was eating to many animals'.

A few years back I fed (baited) a Lion with 1/4 Hippo, 1 Zebra, 1 Roan and a Hartebeest before he showed his face. Admittedly this was a free lunch but he amazed me by how much he could consume. Much to our disgust he turned out to be too young and was left alone to digest his meals.

Calling out some greenhorns lion hunt = MAYBE bad form.

Calling out an outfitter's or agent's lion hunt that he is pretty clearly misrepresenting = GOOD!

I could go on a good safari for all the trophy fees I have paid to feed these bloody cats!

Glen Stockil will testify that we literaly went through 6 giraffes on my 15 day lion hunt before we killed a lion on the last night of the hunt. I was truly shocked at the amount of meat the lions consumed.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The whole idea of letting off into the wild for some time is totally ridiculous.

It was done to bow to the antis.

I don't care how long a lion has been let off to fend for itself, if was bred on a farm it is not a wild animal!

Period.

Totally agree Saeed. Not only is "wilding" bad English, it is a poor justification for shooting a farm raised animal.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

Totally agree Saeed. Not only is "wilding" bad English, it is a poor justification for shooting a farm raised animal.

It's a South African English expression coined by the game industry and I agree, not really great English but of course slightly but only slightly better than American English.

Sorry about that, I just couldn't resist it.

quote:

Just the little bit of research I did on the internet leads me to believe that 10-15 pounds a day would be "average" but I don't believe everything I read on the internet either.

A fair sized Leopard will easily eat 10-15 pounds per sitting! - double or triple that figure for Lion.
You are quite right, don't believe everything you read on the internet.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Just the little bit of research I did on the internet leads me to believe that 10-15 pounds a day would be "average" but I don't believe everything I read on the internet either.

A fair sized Leopard will easily eat 10-15 pounds per sitting! - double or triple that figure for Lion.
You are quite right, don't believe everything you read on the internet.

That seems to be the point Mike and Frostbit are trying to make.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Just the little bit of research I did on the internet leads me to believe that 10-15 pounds a day would be "average" but I don't believe everything I read on the internet either.

A fair sized Leopard will easily eat 10-15 pounds per sitting! - double or triple that figure for Lion.
You are quite right, don't believe everything you read on the internet.

And I'm sure a lion can eat 40 or 50 pounds in a sitting...the key is to average it over 365 days...not one sitting. Lots of good info out there if you really are interested in learning. As pointed out here, a lion is eating whether its in a cage or running around inside a fence so I'm not really sure I get your point. I suppose the lions that are released for a period of time could also be fed quite easily too to prevent them from killing game if that was a concern. I'm not really making an argument for anything other than I've seen operations that do have lions constantly running around on their property and they seem to be doping quite well economically.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
And I'm sure a lion can eat 40 or 50 pounds in a sitting...the key is to average it over 365 days...not one sitting. Lots of good info out there if you really are interested in learning. As pointed out here, a lion is eating whether its in a cage or running around inside a fence so I'm not really sure I get your point. I suppose the lions that are released for a period of time could also be fed quite easily too to prevent them from killing game if that was a concern.

The point of the wilding period is that it allows the lion to learn to become a wild lion rather than a tame one and therefore feeding it during that wilding period would defeat the object of the exercise.

If you were going to feed it during that time, you might as well just take it from the pen it was bred in and shoot it straight away which is what the original proposed legislation was trying to prevent.

Well whatever the case...guys have lions roaming their properties and they are making a profit so you can speculate all you want as to its pitfalls but it is being done. As they say, the proof is in the puddin'

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
Well whatever the case...guys have lions roaming their properties and they are making a profit so you can speculate all you want as to its pitfalls but it is being done. As they say, the proof is in the puddin'

You're right the proof is in the pudding....... maybe they keep umpteen lions on their fenced properties eating valuable animals every day for months on end out of the goodness of their hearts...... but then again, maybe things ain't quite what they claim them to be.

Doesn't really take much working out does it?

Steve is right that the canned lion hunts will eventually lead to the closing of all lion hunts. It gives the Antis more ammo in which to stop hunting completely in Africa, maybe not now but at some point in the future. Canned hunts are really frowned upon in the US. We had a documentary by I believe 60 minutes on a slob hunter who somehow purchased a leopard, released the poor cat out of a cage and the " Client " shot the damn thing as soon as it stepped out of the cage!! Some of the World would see this as hunting. Makes me sick as this took place about an hour from my home.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The whole idea of letting off into the wild for some time is totally ridiculous.

It was done to bow to the antis.

I don't care how long a lion has been let off to fend for itself, if was bred on a farm it is not a wild animal!

Period.

The same could be said of quite a number of animals in RSA....cape buffalo....sable....and even a host of the antelope species. Lions just seem to attract....well....the lion's share of the media attention but truthfully, much of the game killed in South Africa these days was captive bred.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
Well whatever the case...guys have lions roaming their properties and they are making a profit so you can speculate all you want as to its pitfalls but it is being done. As they say, the proof is in the puddin'

You're right the proof is in the pudding....... maybe they keep umpteen lions on their fenced properties eating valuable animals every day for months on end out of the goodness of their hearts...... but then again, maybe things ain't quite what they claim them to be.

Doesn't really take much working out does it?

Steve I'm trying to be polite here and pass on a little first-hand observation and knowledge....something you admittedly have none of. I personally have been on farms where lions run free. Is it common practice? Likely not but it can and is being done and those doing it are making a profit. Does it make them wild lions. No. Does it enhance the experience of the hunt for those that are aware they are hunting a captive raised lion...I'd say likely so. I've asked questions in detail about how they control what these lions kill and I've received some very plausible answers. If you chose not to believe it and continue along with your attempt mock everything that's your loss. I was interested in how it worked and did the research to find out. Is it for me personally? No. But at least I've educated myself enough to understand how the world works.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
The same could be said of quite a number of animals in RSA....cape buffalo....sable....and even a host of the antelope species. Lions just seem to attract....well....the lion's share of the media attention but truthfully, much of the game killed in South Africa these days was captive bred.

At the risk of correcting you again, that also is incorrect.

The vast majority of animals such as buffalo & plains game etc are not captive bred at all but rather are left on game farms to breed and increase in numbers. The main reason is simply that they are herbivores rather than predators and therefore don't cost the landowner anything to feed.

Lions on the other hand are routinely bred and kept in containment pens until removed and (if they're lucky) translocated for shooting.

quote:

At the risk of correcting you again, that also is incorrect.

The vast majority of animals such as buffalo & plains game etc are not captive bred at all but rather are left on game farms to breed and increase in numbers. The main reason is simply that they are herbivores rather than predators and therefore don't cost the landowner anything to feed.

Lions on the other hand are routinely bred and kept in containment pens until removed and (if they're lucky) translocated for shooting.

LOL...if you believe that many guys aren't constantly purchasing animals at auction and releasing them onto their property to be shot then I see no point of continuing this conversation as you obviously are quite out of touch with the industry in RSA. Steve it may be time to step away from the computer and get out in the countryside and see how the world around you is changing.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

Steve I'm trying to be polite here and pass on a little first-hand observation and knowledge....something you admittedly have none of. I personally have been on farms where lions run free. Is it common practice? Likely not but it can and is being done and those doing it are making a profit. Does it make them wild lions. No. Does it enhance the experience of the hunt for those that are aware they are hunting a captive raised lion...I'd say likely so. I've asked questions in detail about how they control what these lions kill and I've received some very plausible answers. If you chose not to believe it and continue along with your attempt mock everything that's your loss. I was interested in how it worked and did the research to find out. Is it for me personally? No. But at least I've educated myself enough to understand how the world works.

I'll ignore the veiled insult about experience except to say I've probably spent more time on African game farms in a single year than you have in your life and I'll move on to point out that you might have been told that umpteen lions roam free (in the long term) on whatever game farm you visited but the math(s) I posted earlier pretty much prove that either the landowner was telling you porky pies or he is a very rich and altruistic man.

I know an awful lot of game farmers but I've never known one that was willing or able to throw away money like that.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
LOL...if you believe that many guys aren't constantly purchasing animals at auction and releasing them onto their property to be shot then I see no point of continuing this conversation as you obviously are quite out of touch with the industry in RSA. Steve it may be time to step away from the computer and get out in the countryside and see how the world around you is changing.

How often do you think the average game farm has a game release then? - Daily, weekly, monthly, bi or try monthly or annually? - So far, your knowledge of the game industry has been abysmally poor because I've had to correct pretty much every statement you've made...... hell, you even thought buffalo and plains game were routinely bred in pens like lion are!

I'm happily retired now and have no intention of going back to buggering about on game farms thanks very much.

Give it up mate, you are just beating yourself to pieces.
It is a pity that "SA Game and Hunt" magazine has a lot of Afrikaans content. It will really help with the understanding of part of the game industry in SA. A thing to remember is that there are a large number of outfits who do not practice "put and take." But that as it may, it is apparent that on AR there there are those like USF&W know better and know more than those in Africa and directly involved.

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:
A thing to remember is that there are a large number of outfits who do not practice "put and take."

Absolutely there are and I never indicated otherwise but there is an ever-increasing number that do. The popularity of the auctions are proof of that. It's a changing industry as people with more money and less time want to fill a trophy room and many don't care how they do it. For those that still value the experience, there are many operators that still service them well too. The term buyer beware has never been more true.

Some of this has certainly been interesting. As is always the case, those selling said hunts and those who partake are the most vociferous on the positive side of pen raised lion shoots.

The meat consumption/game killing issue is somewhat off base at times, as far as I am concerned. It does not matter if a healthy lion can be maintained with 15 or so pounds of meat per day. Game is not taken by a lion and then consumed at that rate. It rots in the sun, hyenas and jackals and birds eat it…….. and on some high fenced operations perhaps there are other lions eating it…………. and there really is no averaging over a year unless you are going to magically erase all of the other consumers of the dead game animal.

Years ago, when I was actively guiding cougar hunts for an outfitter in southern British Columbia, the game department had some cougars (mountain lions) collared and were keeping track of their kill rates. A big tom mountain lion was averaging two and in some cases three mule deer per week. That surprised the heck out of me, but when game is plentiful they kill often and that is a cat the weighs far less than an African lion and probably averages 170 pounds for a mature male in that area.

Now if you averaged that out for a lion killing a beast of deer size (lets use a blesbok…. even though it is not as big as a mule deer on average) at three per week we can average that out to 12 or 13 animals per month. Assessing a $200 value, which seems reasonable at the rates being used for cull hunts, we get a game kill value per month for a lion of $2400 to $2600 US per month…………. at mountain lion consumption rates, which is highly unlikely. But even at that it would cost about $30,000 per year in non trophy game to feed a lion where it has been released and is doing its own thing.

You can play with the numbers and values all you want but it is not going to be cheap. Even if you look at the initial pen raising of the lions to get them to 4 or 5 years of age feeding them Purina Lion Chow and game scraps with the occasional live animal tossed in to keep the killer edge intact………… it ain't cheap.

Wonder what it would cost to raise a pen raise grizzly bear to around ten years of age, so he is big and robust? Kick him out into a high fence reserve area and let him rove around and eat local flora and fauna for a few weeks before taking someone in to kill him. What the hell, no different than killing pen raised lions really.

There is no end to what we can achieve if we put our minds to it.

I have to wonder how effective of a predator that a pen-raised lion would be in his first weeks or months of freedom......much different that a true wild cat I suspect.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
I have to wonder how effective of a predator that a pen-raised lion would be in his first weeks or months of freedom......much different that a true wild cat I suspect.

I would imagine that is quite likely the case……. which would mean they must feed them to supplement actual kills for a period of time. I recall seeing the lions in a high fenced area on the video that had Mark Sullivan in it………. like me, those cats certainly had not missed too many meals.

Any way you slice it though, if in fact a cat is released for an extended period of time and it eventually makes a living by eating the other creatures that are procreating in the game farm, it is going to be expensive. Heck I know a lot of the game farms make basic coin by harvesting the excess game animals and selling the meat commercially or allowing SA hunters to come in and kill them for biltong. Either way they are getting a minimum dollar value out of the non-trophy animals. And lets face it, the lions who do learn to kill are not going to be selecting just the animals with broken or broomed horns and whatever else is used as criteria for the biltong market.

In the end, the pen raised cat that has been released to eventually be killed by a paying client is either a killing machine that has learned how to make a living off the game being raised on the game farm, or it is being fed supplementally like my dog to keep it in good shape. One is going to be costly in meat/trophies on the hoof and the other greatly diminishes the premise that the feline is going feral and becoming more 'wild' during its release period.

If they are shitty hunters there is no way they can just be left to fend on their own for 6 months to a year and keep them in tip top trophy quality. I think this is why most are in fact killed not too long after release. I am sure there are operators that put effort into the wilding process, but that is costly and how do they then offer these cats up for the low low lodge brothers prices……. like $6K for a lioness. Mind you a lot of the canned lioness I have seen pictures of in the grip and grin shots appear to just be two or three year old cats, so the investment would certainly be a lot lower than a 4 to 6 year old male with an MGM mane.

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:
Give it up mate, you are just beating yourself to pieces.
It is a pity that "SA Game and Hunt" magazine has a lot of Afrikaans content. It will really help with the understanding of part of the game industry in SA. A thing to remember is that there are a large number of outfits who do not practice "put and take." But that as it may, it is apparent that on AR there there are those like USF&W know better and know more than those in Africa and directly involved.

Scriptus:

You are right. We are ignorant: we don't know what is put and take and what isn't. And therein lies the problem of hunting in RSA, at least for me.

I would not mind doing a hunt in RSA in an unfenced area.

quote:

I would imagine that is quite likely the case……. which would mean they must feed them to supplement actual kills for a period of time. I recall seeing the lions in a high fenced area on the video that had Mark Sullivan in it………. like me, those cats certainly had not missed too many meals.

Any way you slice it though, if in fact a cat is released for an extended period of time and it eventually makes a living by eating the other creatures that are procreating in the game farm, it is going to be expensive. Heck I know a lot of the game farms make basic coin by harvesting the excess game animals and selling the meat commercially or allowing SA hunters to come in and kill them for biltong. Either way they are getting a minimum dollar value out of the non-trophy animals. And lets face it, the lions who do learn to kill are not going to be selecting just the animals with broken or broomed horns and whatever else is used as criteria for the biltong market.

In the end, the pen raised cat that has been released to eventually be killed by a paying client is either a killing machine that has learned how to make a living off the game being raised on the game farm, or it is being fed supplementally like my dog to keep it in good shape. One is going to be costly in meat/trophies on the hoof and the other greatly diminishes the premise that the feline is going feral and becoming more 'wild' during its release period.

If they are shitty hunters there is no way they can just be left to fend on their own for 6 months to a year and keep them in tip top trophy quality. I think this is why most are in fact killed not too long after release. I am sure there are operators that put effort into the wilding process, but that is costly and how do they then offer these cats up for the low low lodge brothers prices……. like $6K for a lioness. Mind you a lot of the canned lioness I have seen pictures of in the grip and grin shots appear to just be two or three year old cats, so the investment would certainly be a lot lower than a 4 to 6 year old male with an MGM mane.

I never said it was free or even cheap nor that it was common...just that some are doing it and they seem to fetch a good price for their cats.....

To say it's not economically possible or not being done is naive...just as saying it's common would be naive. The cats we saw roaming free in the fenced ranch we hunted definitely weren't the jumbos you often see in pictures. Some had fairly scruffy manes too.

My only point through this entire discussion was not to support lion hunting behind fences but to offer a bit of first-hand experience and to hopefully not paint all of RSA with one brush...something it seems many can't get past.

As with most internet discussions it seems you have to be fer or agin something and if you aren't, someone will make sure you are. I'm honestly the perfect shade of grey on this....

I don't know about you guys but I am not going to live up to other peoples expectations. I will do what I want to do and you can do what you want to do. Simple as that.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Savikataaq Jr:
I don't know about you guys but I am not going to live up to other peoples expectations. I will do what I want to do and you can do what you want to do. Simple as that.

And tell the bloody antis to go to hell!