love the ignore three more turds gone.

I guess the lesson here is to "never let the truth stand in the way of a good story"

Well, I learned something: "Shitheads don't know shit."

Reminds me of Wendell's "Haters just keep hating" picture.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Well, I learned something: "Shitheads don't know shit."

Reminds me of Wendell's "Haters just keep hating" picture.

I was not on AR for a while due to a lot of work and 2 burglaries we had. I had to upgrade my security, which kept me pretty tied up.

It is with disgust that I read this post. How can a man be attacked for telling the truth. Steve have very set principles, which must be appreciated. At least he have the guts to point out the wrongs in the hunting industry. I share his view on captive bred Lion shooting. In the past I was taken on in pm's about my stance on this.

Steve is a dear friend from whom I have learned a lot and I am proud to call him a friend, he lives by his principles and do not bullshit people.

Reading a hunt report one can quickly see where the truth was changed to create a better image of the hunter. If you want to shoot a captive bred Lion and you are happy with it, so be it - but tell it as it is not another story. This Botswana Lions catching RSA cattle is an old bullshit story that nobody should believe anymore and yet we hear about it every now and then. Captive bred Lion shooting happens all over Africa, hunters should do better research before they book a hunt, which in the case of captive bread Lions are always much cheaper than a real wild Lion hunt. Greed is the biggest reason why this practise is still flourishing.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaco Human:
I was not on AR for a while due to a lot of work and 2 burglaries we had. I had to upgrade my security, which kept me pretty tied up.

It is with disgust that I read this post. How can a man be attacked for telling the truth. Steve have very set principles, which must be appreciated. At least he have the guts to point out the wrongs in the hunting industry. I share his view on captive bred Lion shooting. In the past I was taken on in pm's about my stance on this.

Steve is a dear friend from whom I have learned a lot and I am proud to call him a friend, he lives by his principles and do not bullshit people.

Reading a hunt report one can quickly see where the truth was changed to create a better image of the hunter. If you want to shoot a captive bred Lion and you are happy with it, so be it - but tell it as it is not another story. This Botswana Lions catching RSA cattle is an old bullshit story that nobody should believe anymore and yet we hear about it every now and then. Captive bred Lion shooting happens all over Africa, hunters should do better research before they book a hunt, which in the case of captive bread Lions are always much cheaper than a real wild Lion hunt. Greed is the biggest reason why this practise is still flourishing.

Jaco,

I respect your opinion and your defense of a friend but let me ask you these questions?

Do you care if someone shoots a Kudu in RSA in a small fenced enclosure?

Do you care if someone shoots over a waterhole?

Do you care if someone hunts Leopard with dogs?

Do you care if someone shoots game from a vehicle?


You see my questions are listed in order to ask you if these totally legal hunting practices (the vehicle shooting can certainly be legal geographically specific as can the Leopard/dogs) should be attacked in the hunting report forums every time they come up simply because you find them distasteful?

If those attacks occur do you think there will be less hunting reports? Please answer this last question truthfully.

Thank you for the bump of this thread.

Cheers
Jim

Jim,

Captive bred Lions are bred like livestock and released to be shot by the hunter. The Lion have no chance to escape and is destined to die, it have no chance on surviving. I have the same problem with the breeding of Golden Wildebeest, King Wildebeest, Golden Gemsbok, Black Impala etc. as they are bred in small enclosures and released for a hunter to be shoot them.

I hunt on fenced properties, but on all of them the animal have a bigger chance to escape from the hunter than the hunter have to kill it. What is important is to look at the size of the property compared to the natural vegetation in the area. One cannot compare a 1000ha property in the Limpopo with a 1000ha property in the Karoo. I had a client years ago who wanted a specific animal which I could get, but then I found out that the animal is kept on its own in a 20 ha camp. I informed the client and we passed on it.

I do not hunt at waterholes except with bow hunting clients. In anyway I am useless sitting at a waterhole, I fall asleep as it is the most boring thing in the world to do.

Leopards with dogs is not my cup of tea, again the Leopard will have no chance of escape.

I have shot animals from a vehicle when I hunted in Namibia, that was the only way they hunted. I also have shot animals on a cull hunt from a vehicle with clients. On a cull hunt a lot of animals must be taken in a short time and one can only do it effectively from a vehicle.

I have never taken on anybody for his hunting methods as long as it is legal - BUT - tell it as it is, don't shoot from a vehicle and tell about this wonderful stalk or shoot it at a waterhole and say it was next to the river. Why bullshit about it.

In my profession, I cannot dictate to a client how he wants to hunt, I will encourage him to walk and stalk but I cannot force him. Unethical practices like shooting animals in small enclosures or at food troughs ( usually the client is not aware of it's existence is definitely a big no with me.

The problem with captive bred Lion shooting is that in most cases the hunter knows that it is a captive bred Lion but he does not mention it and pretend it was a wild Lion - WHY? If the client did not know he did not do his homework properly, by asking enough questions one can quickly smell the rat. There is no way anybody will convince me that captive bred hunting is doing anything for the conservation of wild Lions, all it is doing is fuelling the greed of hunters who wants to get a cheap Lion as quickly as possible with minimal effort and the breeders who makes bags of money out of this unethical practise.

Jim,
Sorry I did not answer your last question. I do not think it is always an attack on the hunter it is more an attack on certain methods or not telling the story as it is. Hunt reports play an important part and it helps people to make up their minds and also learn a lot. I have read some hunt reports where it was very clear that the it was a cooked report to let the hunter look good. I usually do not comment on things like that as it have noting to do with me. What I cannot understand is that hunters tell a different story in the report than what really happened. The hunter was happy to shoot the animal at a waterhole or from a vehicle, why not tell it as it happened.

Will there be less hunt reports, I do not think so, there might be more hiding of the true story. Captive bred Lion shooting will always be a very polarised discussion. What happened to the days when people came over for the hunt and not for the killing. The best hunt I ever had in my life was with a client that became a friend, Mark Neil who sadly passed on a few years ago. He wanted to walk in the bush and hunt his animals on the foot, we hunted very hard for 10 days in the heat of February, we spent at least 12 hours a day in the bush and saw amazing things and took 6 animals. It is a hunt I will remember till the day I die, because Mark came to hunt not to kill.

Jaco
I think in the emotion of the debate on "canned lions" the original thrust of the thread has been lost. The issue was whether Steve dumping on another hunter's hunt report was the proper thing to do OR whether he should have set up a separate thread to take the man/practice apart.

I for one would like to see more hunt reports, not less. I strongly disagree with hunting from a vehicle (whether or not it is legal or otherwise - and I don't care if it's the "done thing" in a particular country) but I will not crap all over a hunt report where this hunting method is practiced. There is a separate thread to debate the in's and out's of hunting from a vehicle.

I agree that the original "lion hunt" post was a poor example of the breed and I'm sure we all recognised what was going on. Yet there is also the option that the OP was an inexperienced hunter who had a hair raising experience and was trying to share it. You can bet he won't be posting another hunt report anytime soon.

In my opinion the true value or AR is to be found in the hunt reports not in the back biting and bitching. I want to see more hunt reports not less. Perhaps that is why I saw Steve's attack on the report as in poor taste. Consider that it is possible for even a good and honourable friend to make an error of judgement.

JCHB

quote:

Originally posted by JCHB:


Consider that it is possible for even a good and honourable friend to make an error of judgement.

JCHB

I know Steve well enough to know what type of a comment he will make. I took the trouble to go and read the report, without reading further I made the following comments to myself.

The 2 ph's killed by the Lion?
Wild Lion in RSA
The charge very likely if it is a captive bred Lion.

This person was either told a long story about the hunt but he should have picked that up as he is an agent.

OR

He beefed up the story to sell hunts.

I then quickly read through the comments that Steve made. I 100% agree with them.

Why is it that outfitters and ph's in RSA are regularly punished and accused of stuff that are not always true, some operators in the industry are guilty of bad practise but we are all hammered, if an agent is posting to get his name out and there are fishy parts, why can't it be said.

The person who posted the report is a agent and he is selling hunts to hunters who trust him to have their best interest at heart when he sells them a hunt. If he did not know it was a captive bred Lion he should be glad that it was pointed out to him, at least he will be able to tell his clients the true nature of the hunt and he can take on the outfitter and ph for giving him the wrong information about the hunt.

If he knew that was a captive bred Lion and changed the story to look like a wild Lion hunt - well then he was exposed and hunters will know not to book with him.

This is another value of hunt reports to see through a bogus report or to learn out of the comments. I have learned many things in the 10 yrs+ that I am a member on this forums.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:


Jaco,

I respect your opinion and your defense of a friend but let me ask you these questions?

Do you care if someone shoots a Kudu in RSA in a small fenced enclosure?

Do you care if someone shoots over a waterhole?

Do you care if someone hunts Leopard with dogs?

Do you care if someone shoots game from a vehicle?


You see my questions are listed in order to ask you if these totally legal hunting practices (the vehicle shooting can certainly be legal geographically specific as can the Leopard/dogs) should be attacked in the hunting report forums every time they come up simply because you find them distasteful?

If those attacks occur do you think there will be less hunting reports? Please answer this last question truthfully.

Thank you for the bump of this thread.

Cheers
Jim

Jim please define the following please

small fenced enclosure

shooting over a waterhole (sitting in a blind or stalking past , what about rivers ?)

shooting from a vehicle (sitting on the back and shooting or shooting 500m from a vehicle and using the vehicle to stalk )

quote:

Originally posted by 375 fanatic:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:


Jaco,

I respect your opinion and your defense of a friend but let me ask you these questions?

Do you care if someone shoots a Kudu in RSA in a small fenced enclosure?

Do you care if someone shoots over a waterhole?

Do you care if someone hunts Leopard with dogs?

Do you care if someone shoots game from a vehicle?


You see my questions are listed in order to ask you if these totally legal hunting practices (the vehicle shooting can certainly be legal geographically specific as can the Leopard/dogs) should be attacked in the hunting report forums every time they come up simply because you find them distasteful?

If those attacks occur do you think there will be less hunting reports? Please answer this last question truthfully.

Thank you for the bump of this thread.

Cheers
Jim

Jim please define the following please

small fenced enclosure

shooting over a waterhole (sitting in a blind or stalking past , what about rivers ?)

shooting from a vehicle (sitting on the back and shooting or shooting 500m from a vehicle and using the vehicle to stalk )

Isn't that really Jim's point? That many of these notions are subjective and different hunters will define these matters differently and draw different lines . . . so why would someone feel the need to express their own subjective judgment on someone else's hunt report. Just read the report and move along . . . start your your own thread on the issue that ties you up in knots. This is not complex. Jim's point was simply with regard to HOW the issue was raised, not WHETHER the issue was raised. If you want to go on a tirade against canned lion hunts, have at it. Just do not do that on someone else's hunt report and expect that folks will continue to post hunt reports.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by 375 fanatic:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:


Jaco,

I respect your opinion and your defense of a friend but let me ask you these questions?

Do you care if someone shoots a Kudu in RSA in a small fenced enclosure?

Do you care if someone shoots over a waterhole?

Do you care if someone hunts Leopard with dogs?

Do you care if someone shoots game from a vehicle?


You see my questions are listed in order to ask you if these totally legal hunting practices (the vehicle shooting can certainly be legal geographically specific as can the Leopard/dogs) should be attacked in the hunting report forums every time they come up simply because you find them distasteful?

If those attacks occur do you think there will be less hunting reports? Please answer this last question truthfully.

Thank you for the bump of this thread.

Cheers
Jim

Jim please define the following please

small fenced enclosure

shooting over a waterhole (sitting in a blind or stalking past , what about rivers ?)

shooting from a vehicle (sitting on the back and shooting or shooting 500m from a vehicle and using the vehicle to stalk )

Isn't that really Jim's point? That many of these notions are subjective and different hunters will define these matters differently and draw different lines . . . so why would someone feel the need to express their own subjective judgment on someone else's hunt report. Just read the report and move along . . . start your your own thread on the issue that ties you up in knots. This is not complex. Jim's point was simply with regard to HOW the issue was raised, not WHETHER the issue was raised. If you want to go on a tirade against canned lion hunts, have at it. Just do not do that on someone else's hunt report and expect that folks will continue to post hunt reports.

quote:

Originally posted by 375 fanatic:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:


Jaco,

I respect your opinion and your defense of a friend but let me ask you these questions?

Do you care if someone shoots a Kudu in RSA in a small fenced enclosure?

Do you care if someone shoots over a waterhole?

Do you care if someone hunts Leopard with dogs?

Do you care if someone shoots game from a vehicle?


You see my questions are listed in order to ask you if these totally legal hunting practices (the vehicle shooting can certainly be legal geographically specific as can the Leopard/dogs) should be attacked in the hunting report forums every time they come up simply because you find them distasteful?

If those attacks occur do you think there will be less hunting reports? Please answer this last question truthfully.

Thank you for the bump of this thread.

Cheers
Jim

Jim please define the following please

small fenced enclosure

shooting over a waterhole (sitting in a blind or stalking past , what about rivers ?)

shooting from a vehicle (sitting on the back and shooting or shooting 500m from a vehicle and using the vehicle to stalk )

Why would my definition matter to anyone other than me? If the hunt is legal and someone else wants to partake it's fine with me. I'll read their hunt report and I will not crap on it with my opinion about what they should or should not be doing.

If I'm that passionate about the method of their hunt I'll start a thread in another forum and provide a link to the hunt report to support my opinion.

This thread is now 8 pages long. Some think it's about captive bred Lion hunting, some think it's about Shakari, it's actually about hunt reports and the lessoning numbers we will see if everyone who posts one has to put up with everyone else's opinion of the "ethics" of their hunt choice.

Steve tried to say he had to comment on that hunt report because otherwise no one would see it. BULLSHIT!! This thread is 8 pages long with over 10,000 views, far more than the hunt report.

Steve could have easily started a thread here, left the hunt report alone, linked back to it, and the "education" would not come at the cost of fewer hunters willing to put up reports in the future.

Cheers
Jim

Jaco, I can not agree at all with your statement of hunting leopards with dogs, I you have never done it please don't make that statement, maybe you have done it... Bottom line the most miles I have ever put on a hunt was hunting leopard with dogs, and none of the more than a dozen hunts I have done with dogs were easy and almost all of them went the full 14 days. Maybe I was just bad luck I don't know but to say the leopard has no change is not a true statement in my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
Jaco, I can not agree at all with your statement of hunting leopards with dogs, I you have never done it please don't make that statement, maybe you have done it... Bottom line the most miles I have ever put on a hunt was hunting leopard with dogs, and none of the more than a dozen hunts I have done with dogs were easy and almost all of them went the full 14 days. Maybe I was just bad luck I don't know but to say the leopard has no change is not a true statement in my opinion.

Great example of the open discussion of hunting methods.

If someone had put up a hunt report of a Leopard hunt with dogs and Jaco had commented directly on the report he didn't think it fair chase to the Leopard, then others would certainly be reluctant to post hunt reports later.

Here is a fine example that does not involve captive breed Lions yet two PH's who want to disagree.

The disagreement is healthy, this location for it is healthy. A hunt report would not be a good choice for the discussion.

Well done!!

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
Jaco, I can not agree at all with your statement of hunting leopards with dogs, I you have never done it please don't make that statement, maybe you have done it... Bottom line the most miles I have ever put on a hunt was hunting leopard with dogs, and none of the more than a dozen hunts I have done with dogs were easy and almost all of them went the full 14 days. Maybe I was just bad luck I don't know but to say the leopard has no change is not a true statement in my opinion.

Phillip,
I said it is not my cup of tea, I have never criticized anybody for hunting a Leopard with dogs and I will not, it is just something that I personally do not like. I have answered Frostbits questions to me personally. I 100% accept that others have a different view than I have. When I do a personal hunt I do it my way, when I have a client I have a professional obligation to make the hunt as enjoyable as possible and I must take his preferences in consideration. I must also ensure that everything is done legally. That said there are certain thing that I will not do and one of them is to shoot a captive bred Lion.

Jaco, thanks my only point was that it is not true that A leopard does not have a change with dogs that's all, there are A 101 things that can go wrong hunting leopard with dogs in fact they have a hell of a good change of getting away everything needs to be perfect for that hunt to work. Any way have a great day!