quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
I'm certainly no lion expert but I have trouble believing that they'd consume an entire animal every day.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Also remember that lions are killing machines and will often kill whenever they get the chance and whether they're hungry or not.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

So the hunt report you pissed on might have represented an actual event, fenced or not.

Interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
I'm certainly no lion expert but I have trouble believing that they'd consume an entire animal every day.

+1

As I was warned before take Steve's "expertise" with a grain of salt.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

So the hunt report you pissed on might have represented an actual event, fenced or not.

Interesting.

Yet again, you need to concentrate really, really hard and try (perhaps slowly) to re-read my previous posts (take notes if you feel the need!) ........ I have never said that canned lions are any less dangerous than wild lions and in fact, I've even said that quite the opposite can be argued.

Got it so far?

However, a captive bred/canned lion hunt sorry, shoot, will never be anything like a true wild lion hunt.

Still with me?

For God's sake, the man posted it was a wild lion hunt etc and then that they'd found the fresh tracks within an hour and shot it soon thereafter........ don't you think that was a remarkable stroke of good fortune to say the very least?

quote:

For example if they claim a 6 month/180 day wilding period and you assume each self sustaining lion eats an average of one prey animal worth US$200 per day and never injures a prey animal that escapes and never kills a more expensive animal, that lion is consuming $36k worth of animals over that 6 month/180 day period. Also don't forget you need to factor in a plethora of other costs to pay for getting the lion from birth to release/shooting age and so if the lion 'hunt' is being sold for let's say, USD15k then something in the offer simply has to be dodgy and the most likely thing to be dodgy is the length of the wilding period.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
I'm certainly no lion expert but I have trouble believing that they'd consume an entire animal every day.

Note my use of the phrase 'an average'. Some days it might not eat, some it might eat an impala, some a larger and more expensive animal such as an nyala, kudu or sable and that average price I did the maths (or math) on is (IMO) very much on the conservative side.

If you worked on an average of USD300 per day, the cost for that same period would rise to USD54k.

Also remember that lions are killing machines and will often kill whenever they get the chance and whether they're hungry or not.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

Just the little bit of research I did on the internet leads me to believe that 10-15 pounds a day would be "average" but I don't believe everything I read on the internet either. We just returned from Namibia where we shared the valley with a pride of 5 lions and it appeared they killed about every five days, not five times a day so perhaps the internet is correct.

From what I've been told, the hunt farms don't have a lolt of issue with single lions killing their more expensive game as they primarily prey on warthogs and blesbok.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

Ever been on a wild Lion hunt Steve?

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

Just the little bit of research I did on the internet leads me to believe that 10-15 pounds a day would be "average" but I don't believe everything I read on the internet either. We just returned from Namibia where we shared the valley with a pride of 5 lions and it appeared they killed about every five days, not five times a day so perhaps the internet is correct.

From what I've been told, the hunt farms don't have a lolt of issue with single lions killing their more expensive game as they primarily prey on warthogs and blesbok.

Probably one of the best sources of accurate info from an informed source would be the book 'Keeping Big Cats as a Game Farm animal' by the SA veterinarian assoc but I haven't unpacked my copy yet..... my guess is that estimate is on the low side..... either way, if you factored in the occasional bigger/more expensive animal (possibly worth thousands rather than hundreds) I reckon my maths (or math) probably isn't too far off.

Done forget that some meat might not get eaten immediately and will be left or another kill made before all the meat is consumed & some may well be stolen by other animals etc.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

Ever been on a wild Lion hunt Steve?

There ya go with that same old ad hominem BS yet again but despite that, my avatar pic might give you a clue but in case it doesn't, yes........ I'd guess probably more than you.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

Not well enough versed to argue the subject...just going on what I've been told and observed with wild and captive-raised lions but either way, I'd say your math (maths) is way off. From what we saw in South Africa I'd say most of the lion kills had very little economic value to the operation. With the wild lions that had the opportunity to form a pride, then yes, they killed some very valuable animals. My understanding is that on operations with wilded captive-bred lions that they don't allow prides to form to prevent the killing of more expensive animals.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

How about some stories. Perhaps a hunt report we could all comment on.

quote:

Pretty much any animal on a fenced SA game farm has an economic value as far as replacement cost and/or trophy fee is concerned and trust me, a single lion has no trouble whatsoever in killing an animal the size of a zebra or kudu etc.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Damn this made 3 pages pretty quickly.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

Many ranches need to routinely cull some species so I suspect the lion is doing them a service in some instances and in others, no doubt their is a cost associated and I'm sure that cost is built into the lion hunt. It's my understanding that steps are taken to mitigate these costs, such as preventing the formation of prides. My point is that your math (maths) seems to be a gross over exaggeration. I'm just attempting to bring a more real context to this discussion and demonstrate that not all captive-bred lion hunts are drugged cats in a pen. Some operators are taking steps to enhance the experience. And some aren't. One size or brush does not fit all.

quote:

but even if you half my lowest estimate and say USD100 per day for 180 days, that's still a total of USD18000 plus all those other costs to get it from birth to shootable age so it's still impossible to see the package for some of prices one sees quoted.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

but even if you half my lowest estimate and say USD100 per day for 180 days, that's still a total of USD18000 plus all those other costs to get it from birth to shootable age so it's still impossible to see the package for some of prices one sees quoted.

Seeing as you are just throwing wild guesses around, it seems to serve very little purpose to attach an economic value to them and formulate an argument around that. I'll stick with the 10-15 pounds of meat per day that appears to of come from a fairly credible source and I also stick with the notion that the killing of higher priced game can be mitigated that also came from a fairly credible source and continue to believe that some degree of wilding is not only possible but economically viable.

quote:

If that were the case, why did the breeder'assoc threaten to sue the minister if he introduced the proposed 6 month wilding period do you think?

He was so concerned about that threat, he removed lions from the schedule of dangerous animals!

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Damn this made 3 pages pretty quickly.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Damn this made 3 pages pretty quickly.

Seems like most of it is Steve responding to people and about things that he says on the other thread that he does not give a f*** about.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
There were a large number of reasons of which not wanting more Government intervention was the primary one but I suspect there are also many operators that could care less about the experience and only look at the bottom line. On the other hand, there are many operators that would like to create standards within the industry without the oversight of the government. I'm sure you understand that considering the record of the government in RSA recently.

quote:

Originally posted by ManuelM:
I have no dog in this fight, but I have an opinion regarding the portrayal of lion hunts, I really don´t believe than anyone serious about hunting that had done his homework regarding a lion hunt regarding: area, operator, mane quality, number of lions etc. can believe he is hunting a wild lion when in a canned operation, anyone who says that he was scammed by thinking it was a free range lion hunt is bullshit, I mean don't those pens have an entrance?

I have never hunted Africa, and I don´t think I would be able to in many years, but even I would be able to distinguish a canned operation from a real free range hunt, Now that a well seasoned hunter can´t distinguish that, that is simply too hard to believe.

By the way I have absolutely nothing against captive bred lion hunts, I think they could actually be exciting, but they should be portrayed as what they really are.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Damn this made 3 pages pretty quickly.

Seems like most of it is Steve responding to people and about things that he says on the other thread that he does not give a f*** about.

Be even longer if he posted some pictures.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

If there is one thing worse than the captive bred lion hunt controversy it is the whole international image theft problem. I know that Steve feels passionately about both.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Damn this made 3 pages pretty quickly.

Seems like most of it is Steve responding to people and about things that he says on the other thread that he does not give a f*** about.

Be even longer if he posted some pictures.

If there is one thing worse than the captive bred lion hunt controversy it is the whole international image theft problem. I know that Steve feels passionately about both.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I know you're both losing the argument but attacking me personally won't ever win the debate. all it'll do is make the two of you look increasingly ridiculous!

What argument is that Steve? I'm not arguing about types of Lion hunting I'm simply pointing out you pissed on a hunt report. It's plain for all to see.

However: If you check my posts going back several years, you'll find I do indeed get VERY pissed off about it and you'll also find I've previously given at least two examples of how others have had their images stolen by other groups...... at least one of those groups were anti hunting and had hijacked a good number of pics from AR and used them to promote their own anti hunting agendas.

I've also previously posted how we have had several people stealing my images for their own business purposes....... one was even using them to sell hooky hunting DVDs he'd copied.

Despite that, there's still a fair number of my pics floating around the internet being used by image thieves and all you have to do to find them is use Google and then click on the images icon....... alternatively, you could always buy the book that your mate keeps publicising for me...... as I recall, there's probably one or two in there.

Honestly: I could out debate you two with both hands tied behind my back and a string between my toe and my tongue and the reason I can is that I'm right and know what I'm talking about and you're wrong and are talking out of your arses...... which is why you have to keep on resorting to that ad hominem BS.

Incidentally, it doesn't happen very often but I do occasionally sell an individual image to a magazine for a four figure sum so WTF would I post such things on the net where any light fingered bastard can steal it....... Example BTW in the middle pages of one of the blaser mags a few years ago.

Better switch our footware boys!! It's getting deep.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I didn't piss on him or his hunt report at all but you don't know that because you don't read my posts properly.... like I've said, slow down and take notes then you might understand the point I was making.

The blaser mag pic..... I suggest if you don't believe it, you find someone who collects the old ones or maybe go online and see if you can find the back issues there and look for the double spread pic of the charging lion in the middle pages and my name on the credit.

nice try on yet another ad hominem thing tho!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I reckon I'm well ahead on points but here's another if you're as fed up with me quoting ad hominem as I am of having to quote it because you can't win any other way:

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”
― Socrates

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:
Laun any good Kudu walking the hills?

Im up in Swartruggens and Groot Mariko next week

reg

JK

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

If that were the case, why did the breeder'assoc threaten to sue the minister if he introduced the proposed 6 month wilding period do you think?

He was so concerned about that threat, he removed lions from the schedule of dangerous animals!

There were a large number of reasons of which not wanting more Government intervention was the primary one but I suspect there are also many operators that could care less about the experience and only look at the bottom line. On the other hand, there are many operators that would like to create standards within the industry without the oversight of the government. I'm sure you understand that considering the record of the government in RSA recently.