quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
As someone who has posted the "evil lion picture," and gotten roasted a bit for it here, my take is that we need to be more gentlemanly about the criticisms of our own. Please note, I am not saying that criticism should not be made, just that it should be done with a decorum of if the other guy was in the room with you and your daughter/grand daughter was in the room with you. Criticism and debate can be done civilly, contrary to what is seen on the internet daily.

I read the report in question. I suspected that things were probably not as advertised. I still think so, but I can't say absolutely. I also had some questions about the hunter's reasons for posting it, as with his screen name, I wondered if he was either an agent or wanting to become one.

I really wish that Steve would have started his own thread on "how to spot a canned hunt" instead of making his comments on the guy's thread. He has a wealth of experience, but also is probably somewhat cynical about South Africa, as he chose to get the heck out of there as he retired.

One of my favorite parts of AR is the hunting reports from our fellow hunters, from Saeed's epics to the simple hog shooting in the pig forums, by driving some away, I feel we are collectively degrading our experiences.

With the sort of welcome we give some here, we attack someone who doesn't know better personally when the ire would be better spent on the persons enabling the actions.

Again, not asking for the mods to censor, but for the community to use restraint. Any highschooler can call someone a dumb f*&^%, but it sounds better to call one's accuser a semiliterate cretin (yes, that's an oxymoron), and better yet to explain what you found to be an issue politely.

100% in agreement.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:

He is not the first and not the last. The main criteria is the skin colour. I have a friend who has a Masters Degree in teaching, from a UK university, and has specialised in "remedial teaching." Someone this country sorely needs. After umteen years she still has not been appointed to a permanent post, the wankers in Dept of Education are still convinced that she is not qualified. Just years of crap and yet every so called refugee that creeps across our borders is a citizen in 10 minutes. Hence our visa problems with UK et al.
Steve is a straight up man and in my book is a good mate who does not have to prove anything to anyone.

Another example is my better half Susan was a theatre room (OR) manager and senior sister in the cardio thoracic unit at Guy's Hospital in london for many years, did no end of work on the development of such things as taking the baby from the womb, conducting heart surgery on it and returning it etc and has operating procedures named after her and has also been part of the voluntary teams that go to places such Nairobbery to conduct voluntary cardio thoracic surgical missions etc and yet even despite resitting the SA exams was never allowed to practice because she was the wrong nationality.

Steve,

Good thing getting out of there. I assume it was rather costly for you. It sounds like you left some guns and mounts behind. I don't know the status of your Jeep. It looked like a fine vehicle.

I still agree with others not to pi$$ on a person's hunt report. I do, however, appreciate the knowledge you bring here.

DCS

Ja, we got screwed by the Reserve Bank but no more than we expected and have made that and more back since we came here so I guess it was rather a case of swings and roundabouts.

I decided it was just too much of a schlep (neither could go with our household items and both needed to be shipped separately) to shift all the guns and trophies so preferred most of them to go a good home and friend and we just shipped the few that had the most sentimental value and that worked out very well for us.

As for the Jeep....... much to Susan's (and Luan's ) disgust, I insisted on bringing it with us and that was one of the best investment decisions I've ever made because it's value here is more than 10 times it's SA value.

I'm actually sorely tempted to go back to RSA and buy another one or two classic left hand drive cars and ship them over here to sell.

Larry & CRB

Again, you need to re-read my posts.

I haven't called anyone a "dumb f*&^%" etc, least of all the OP.

I have however expressed my feelings about the charlatans who misrepresent such unethical (etc) packages such as are being discussed here but not as far as I can recall profanely.

Admittedly, I have said that I don't give a flying fuck what people think about me or my opinions and I stand by that. As far as I'm concerned, the future of lions and lion hunting is FAR more important to me than the risk of offending someone's finer sensibilities.

And if the word fuck offends you, it's because you fail to understand that it's one of the most versatile words in the English language!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_osQvkeNRM

Fuck
Perhaps one of the most interesting and versatile words in the English language is the word fuck. It is the only word which can describe pain, pleasure, hate, and love. Fuck falls into many grammatical categories. It can be used as a verb, both transitive (John fucked Mary) and intransitive (Mary was fucked by John). It can be an active verb (John really gives a fuck) or a passive verb (Mary really doesn’t give a fuck), an adverb (Mary is fucking interested in John), and a noun (Mary is a fine fuck). It can be used as an adjective (Mary is fucking beautiful). It should be obvious now that there are not many words in the English language with the versatility of the word fuck. Here’s just some of the other ways in which this lovely word can be used:
• Insurance fraud: I got fucked by my agent.
• Happiness: I got fucked by my girlfriend.
• Dismay: Oh fuck it.
• Frustration: Fuck.
• Amazement: Well, fuck.
• Trouble: I guess I’m fucked now.
• Aggression: Fuck you.
• Passive: Fuck me.
• Anger: Fuck it.
• Confusion: What the fuck is going on?
• Difficulty: I can’t understand my fucking homework.
• Curiosity: What the fuck are you doing?
• Despair: Fucked again.
• Uncaring: Who gives a fuck?
• Religious: Holy fuck!
• Incompetence: He’s all fucked up.
• Laziness: He’s just fucking around.
• Rebellion: Fuck off.
• Romantic: Let’s fuck.
• Fear: Oh fuck.
• Displeasure: What the fuck is happening?
• It can be used in descriptive anatomy: He’s a fucking asshole.
• It can be used to suggest ideas: Go fuck a tree,
• It can be used to tell time: It’s fucking 5:30
• It can be used in business: How did I get this fucking job?
• It can have maternal connections: Motherfucker.
• It can be nautical: Fuck the admiral.
• It can be political: Fuck the President.
• It can be medical: Re-fucking-tarded.
• It can open the door to new relationships: Let’s fuck.
• It can enhance the meaning of a word: Beauti-fucking-ful.
• It can be used as a greeting: - How the fuck are you?
• It can display confusion: What the fuck?!;
• It can be used to express disgust: "Fuck me"
• It can be a philosophical statement - "Who gives a fuck?"
• It can be used in numerology : "Sixty-fuckin'-nine";
• It can be a navigational term: - "Where the fuck are we?"
• DISBELIEF - "Unfuckingbelievable
• RETALIATION - Up your fucking ass!"
• SATISFACTION – That’s fucking wonderful!PREDICTION - "Well, I'll be fucked!"
• A PUT DOWN - "Fuck off, buster!"
• ALL ENCOMPASSING - "Fuck 'em all!"
• AS AN ACCEPTANCE - "Fuckin' eh!"
• ENJOYMENT - "Fuckin' Wow!" "
Never forget the quotes of some famous people in our history and in the present:
• Michelangelo: "You want me to paint what on the fucking ceiling"
• George Custer: Where did all these Fucking indians come from?
• Einstein: "Any fucker can understand that"
• Mayor of Hiroshima: What the fuck was that?
• Heidi Fleuss: Fuck these celebrities!
• Mayor Richard Daley: Fuck the heat - - Chicago IL
• John Wayne: "Fuck death and the lung cancer he rode in on."
• Bill Clinton: What the fuck's this inhaling thing?
• Oliver North: You're all fucking liars!
• Sean PennFuck: Fuck, Fuck, Fuck, Fuck etc.
• Eddie Murphy: Fuck you, Fuck you, and Fuck you. Who's next?
• Jack Nicholas: Fuck this for a lark, 1995 British Open
And last but not least, the immortal words of the captain of the Titanic, who said "Full speed ahead and fuck the iceberg" and five minutes later said "Where is all this fucking water coming from?
The mind fairly boggles at the many creative uses of the many creative uses of the word. How can anyone be offended when you say "FUCK"? Use fuck in your daily speech.

Let us also not forget that without it, none of would be here now

Saeed:

Now that was funny.

Steve :

I agree with you thoughts about the canned hunts . I disagree with the way it was presented. However , I respect your right to communicate your thoughts in the manner you choose.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Let us also not forget that without it, none of would be here now

What the fuck are you on about now? Mom told me it a friggen stork!

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:

He is not the first and not the last. The main criteria is the skin colour. I have a friend who has a Masters Degree in teaching, from a UK university, and has specialised in "remedial teaching." Someone this country sorely needs. After umteen years she still has not been appointed to a permanent post, the wankers in Dept of Education are still convinced that she is not qualified. Just years of crap and yet every so called refugee that creeps across our borders is a citizen in 10 minutes. Hence our visa problems with UK et al.
Steve is a straight up man and in my book is a good mate who does not have to prove anything to anyone.

Another example is my better half Susan was a theatre room (OR) manager and senior sister in the cardio thoracic unit at Guy's Hospital in london for many years, did no end of work on the development of such things as taking the baby from the womb, conducting heart surgery on it and returning it etc and has operating procedures named after her and has also been part of the voluntary teams that go to places such Nairobbery to conduct voluntary cardio thoracic surgical missions etc and yet even despite resitting the SA exams was never allowed to practice because she was the wrong nationality.

Steve,

Good thing getting out of there. I assume it was rather costly for you. It sounds like you left some guns and mounts behind. I don't know the status of your Jeep. It looked like a fine vehicle.

I still agree with others not to pi$$ on a person's hunt report. I do, however, appreciate the knowledge you bring here.

Good thing getting out of there. Yup there are a whole lot more gone and going, including born and bred fourth [paternal] and tenth [maternal] generation.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Let us also not forget that without it, none of would be here now

Damn (or should that be fuck?) but that made me choke on my coffee!

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Let us also not forget that without it, none of would be here now

What the fuck are you on about now? Mom told me it a friggen stork!

We all know white storks bring white babies, and black storks bring black babies.

Do you know what bird brings no babies?

A swallow!

You are on a roll today !

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Do you know what bird brings no babies?

A swallow!

Oh my....... there goes the coffee again!

I am sure some are enjoying the diversion, but back to the point.

It is really pretty simple, as folks like crbutler have well pointed out. To use an analogy, it is one thing to joke and chat about an ugly woman, it is another thing to do that in front of the woman or in the presence of her husband. If there are some that cannot appreciate the difference between those two situations, then you have to wonder about the quality of the parenting they received. There was no reason a discussion of someone's concerns about the hunt could not have been started on another thread and in fashion not designed to denigrate the hunter's experience.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Let us also not forget that without it, none of would be here now

What the fuck are you on about now? Mom told me it a friggen stork!

We all know white storks bring white babies, and black storks bring black babies.

Do you know what bird brings no babies?

A swallow!

Yeah yeah! Aunty Martha told me that too, it is too small.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I am sure some are enjoying the diversion, but back to the point.

It is really pretty simple, as folks like crbutler have well pointed out. To use an analogy, it is one thing to joke and chat about an ugly woman, it is another thing to do that in front of the woman or in the presence of her husband. If there are some that cannot appreciate the difference between those two situations, then you have to wonder about the quality of the parenting they received. There was no reason a discussion of someone's concerns about the hunt could not have been started on another thread and in fashion not designed to denigrate the hunter's experience .

If it's not done on that thread then others may very well see it, contact the agent and book the package and believe they have a real lion hunt when in fact they have the same deal as he had... Therefore, it's essential that it's done on that thread.

As I've said several times. I wasn't kaking on the OP, I was kaking on whoever misrepresented the package etc.

All you need to do to understand my point is read and comprehend my comments.

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Let us also not forget that without it, none of would be here now

What the fuck are you on about now? Mom told me it a friggen stork!

We all know white storks bring white babies, and black storks bring black babies.

Do you know what bird brings no babies?

A swallow!

Yeah yeah! Aunty Martha told me that too, it is too small.

The bird of peace: the dove
The bird of power and might: the eagle
The bird of commitment: the swallow

The big difference I see on the hunt report in question is that the guy appears to be a booking agent and is characterizing this as a wild hunt. Most of us hate it when a TV show does this, so why the difference here on AR? What if Jim what's his face (Buntworth?) made the same post about bowhunting a drugged lion instead of showing it on his TV show?

How would feel if you booked a hunt with this outfit thinking it was a wild lion hunt only to find out later you were duped? How would you feel if you knew there were some on AR who could have told you the truth but didn't?

Where I went to college we were taught not to lie. But we were also told about "social tact" - you don't tell the host her chocolate cake was the worst you ever had. But if you ate the chocolate cake and then got sick, it was different.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
The big difference I see on the hunt report in question is that the guy appears to be a booking agent and is characterizing this as a wild hunt. Most of us hate it when a TV show does this, so why the difference here on AR? What if Jim what's his face (Buntworth?) made the same post about bowhunting a drugged lion instead of showing it on his TV show?

How would feel if you booked a hunt with this outfit thinking it was a wild lion hunt only to find out later you were duped? How would you feel if you knew there were some on AR who could have told you the truth but didn't?

Where I went to college we were taught not to lie. But we were also told about "social tact" - you don't tell the host her chocolate cake was the worst you ever had. But if you ate the chocolate cake and then got sick, it was different.

I personally think the difference is this; A guy who has been on one or two PG hunts, in fenced concessions, you might pull it off. (Wild vs Canned)

A guy who has done a few, moved on to wild and unfenced Africa usually has learned the ropes and couldn't be fooled.

My first PG safari in RSA, one night we were hanging around the skinning shed, a big truck pulled up. I could hear animals in the back, moving about. I persisted on knowing more. The PH I was with walked me over, showed me them unloading Zebras into a boma.

It was then that the put and take nature of RSA became known to me. Prior that, I hadn't a clue. We actually went to a game auction in Ellisras the next day.

That was 1998(I think). I hadn't even heard of AR till 2008. I figured it out on my own, took one seven day safari to get enough of an education to "get it."

Most guys aren't to the point of hunting Lions, wild or otherwise till they get more than a "few" under their belts.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
The big difference I see on the hunt report in question is that the guy appears to be a booking agent and is characterizing this as a wild hunt. Most of us hate it when a TV show does this, so why the difference here on AR? ...

I remember when someone linked a Mike Sullivan lion hunt in RSA that took place at a game ranch. He called it "the hunt of a lifetime". People thought he was being disingenuous at best because it was a canned hunt, and because it was an advertisement for the game ranch.

Caveat Emptor

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Let us also not forget that without it, none of would be here now

What the fuck are you on about now? Mom told me it a friggen stork!

We all know white storks bring white babies, and black storks bring black babies.

Do you know what bird brings no babies?

A swallow!

Saeed that joke is so old the last time I heard it I fell off my dinosaur laughing.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
The big difference I see on the hunt report in question is that the guy appears to be a booking agent and is characterizing this as a wild hunt. Most of us hate it when a TV show does this, so why the difference here on AR? What if Jim what's his face (Buntworth?) made the same post about bowhunting a drugged lion instead of showing it on his TV show?

How would feel if you booked a hunt with this outfit thinking it was a wild lion hunt only to find out later you were duped? How would you feel if you knew there were some on AR who could have told you the truth but didn't?

Where I went to college we were taught not to lie. But we were also told about "social tact" - you don't tell the host her chocolate cake was the worst you ever had. But if you ate the chocolate cake and then got sick, it was different.

I personally think the difference is this; A guy who has been on one or two PG hunts, in fenced concessions, you might pull it off. (Wild vs Canned)

A guy who has done a few, moved on to wild and unfenced Africa usually has learned the ropes and couldn't be fooled.

My first PG safari in RSA, one night we were hanging around the skinning shed, a big truck pulled up. I could hear animals in the back, moving about. I persisted on knowing more. The PH I was with walked me over, showed me them unloading Zebras into a boma.

It was then that the put and take nature of RSA became known to me. Prior that, I hadn't a clue. We actually went to a game auction in Ellisras the next day.

That was 1998(I think). I hadn't even heard of AR till 2008. I figured it out on my own, took one seven day safari to get enough of an education to "get it."

Most guys aren't to the point of hunting Lions, wild or otherwise till they get more than a "few" under their belts.

Steve

I have never hunted RSA, but as I said in another post, I am going there on business on Saturday. I asked my biz partner there if he knew of any places in which I could squeeze in a hunt. He told me call "XYZ" but he said I needed to hurry so he could order the animals - he was getting low on antelope.

Sorry, but that isn't hunting. At least not for me.

quote:

I have never hunted RSA, but as I said in another post, I am going there on business on Saturday. I asked my biz partner there if he knew of any places in which I could squeeze in a hunt. He told me call "XYZ" but he said I needed to hurry so he could order the animals - he was getting low on antelope.

Sorry, but that isn't hunting. At least not for me.

It's pretty easy to paint RSA with one brush but the truth is, all operations are not the same. Hunters really need to do their research to ensure they get the experience they want but at the end of the day, there will be a long line of internet hunters just waiting to judge them. It's kind of sad what we've morphed into.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

I have never hunted RSA, but as I said in another post, I am going there on business on Saturday. I asked my biz partner there if he knew of any places in which I could squeeze in a hunt. He told me call "XYZ" but he said I needed to hurry so he could order the animals - he was getting low on antelope.

Sorry, but that isn't hunting. At least not for me.

You are absolutely right. Its not hunting. Contact some of the outfitters on the forum. You'll find someone to give you a proper hunt.

Happy hunting

quote:

Originally posted by Jan Dumon:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

I have never hunted RSA, but as I said in another post, I am going there on business on Saturday. I asked my biz partner there if he knew of any places in which I could squeeze in a hunt. He told me call "XYZ" but he said I needed to hurry so he could order the animals - he was getting low on antelope.

Sorry, but that isn't hunting. At least not for me.

You are absolutely right. Its not hunting. Contact some of the outfitters on the forum. You'll find someone to give you a proper hunt.

Happy hunting

I have had some pretty good experiences in RSA. One place in particular in the Steenbokpan area, a farm called "vitvogelfontien." Huge by RSA standards, mountainous, no put and take (any more). The place is so big, you really never even see or "feel" the fences.

I would go there even now. Pig and Klippy genetics are sick.

Steve

That whole area around Steenbokpan is beautiful huh.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Frostbit

Firstly: I didn't piss on the man at all but I did point out he'd been sold a pup if he thought he'd had a wild lion hunt and that is entirely correct.

I later pointed that the 'hunt' was either misrepresented to him or he was misrepresenting it to others and in either case, it could lead to others booking similar 'hunts' if that fact was not pointed out and those things are also entirely correct and bearing in mind he's an agent, VERY important.

Steve, it was a hunt report and you pissed on it PERIOD!!

Where have I EVER claimed to be an authority on anything? I do often express opinions and sometimes give info but I never have and never will, claim to be an authority on anything.

We could certainly start here!!

I also posted a link to an article on our own website on how to spot the differences between a canned lion and a proper hunt...... I've posted that link several times before so it's probably been viewed before by most here who are interested.

"Your website" - would that be an "expert" opinion?

I also posted "I have always said and always will say that canned lion shooting gives no benefit whatsoever to the wild lion populations because wild lion populations are on quota and therefore only a set number can be shot. Therefore the only benefit of captive bred lions is to the unethical and unscrupulous bastards that sell or shoot them and that this despicable practice will be one of the major contributory facors to the eventual banning of all lion hunting and eventually all lions outside of zoos" and I stand by that opinion. hell, they even proudly advertise what they do by posting pics and vids all over the net and couldn't make things easier for the antis if they tried.

This thread is not about Lion hunting, it's about you being a pompous ass and shitting on a man's hunt report.

This debate has raged for years and I've posted my own views on every occasion so why start a new thread to simply recover old ground?

I've never claimed to be a great PH but I do have a fair bit of experience in a number of different African countries and have hunted a reasonable number of DG and other animals over the years...... As for posting pics, if you do a search of my previous posts, you'll find my policy on that ..... I stopped doing it many years ago because of image theft and you'll find examples of many of my old pics floating about the net, including a few lions.

Convenient and expected excuse. Guess MJines thought so also.

Another search on my old posts will show you that I've previously said to others that I don't need to and will not justify myself to you or anyone else. - I don't give a flying fuck what you or anyone else thinks about me. I am what I am. Nothing more and nothing less.

That's good Steve, cause I think you are a pompous ass that has over represented himself on this forum. When I first came on here I was sent a PM by a well respected booking agent to pull out a complete bag of salt and not just a grain in regards to your advice.

You are also shooting from the lip with your policy of Ad Hominem which if you don't know translates to 'attack the man when you can't win the argument'.

And you Sir are diverting the target from pissing on a hunt report to opinions on hunting Lions in RSA. This thread is not about Lions it's about a disrespectful attitude towards someone sharing an experience.

Incidentally, I've also said that a captive bred lion is often no less dangerous than a wild one (unless of course still drugged) and that these practices are not limited to SA alone and that they happen in several other African countries as well.

What's important here is that lions and lion hunting continue for the next generation not that hunters get a lion in their trophy room at any cost or that their sensibilities are offended by my perhaps slightly hard nosed comments.

The fact is that canned lion shooting is wrong and will one day come back to bite us in the arse and that I'm dead right to criticise it.

Fine!! It's a loosely moderated forum and should stay that way. Criticize RSA Lion hunting all you want. Piss on a hunt report and I will again call you out for the pompous ass you are.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I am sure some are enjoying the diversion, but back to the point.

It is really pretty simple, as folks like crbutler have well pointed out. To use an analogy, it is one thing to joke and chat about an ugly woman, it is another thing to do that in front of the woman or in the presence of her husband. If there are some that cannot appreciate the difference between those two situations, then you have to wonder about the quality of the parenting they received. There was no reason a discussion of someone's concerns about the hunt could not have been started on another thread and in fashion not designed to denigrate the hunter's experience .

If it's not done on that thread then others may very well see it, contact the agent and book the package and believe they have a real lion hunt when in fact they have the same deal as he had... Therefore, it's essential that it's done on that thread.

As I've said several times. I wasn't kaking on the OP, I was kaking on whoever misrepresented the package etc.

All you need to do to understand my point is read and comprehend my comments.

BULLSHIT.

I didn't call you a pompous ass on that thread. I put a link there and directed posters here. It appears to have worked without disrupting the sharing of another hunters experience.

Keep shitting on hunt reports and there will be less and less to read and enjoy.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

BULLSHIT.

I didn't call you a pompous ass on that thread. I put a link there and directed posters here. It appears to have worked without disrupting the sharing of another hunters experience.

Keep shitting on hunt reports and there will be less and less to read and enjoy.

It's not bullshit at all. I think there's a very good possibility that some naive hunter who wants a lion for his trophy room might book a 'hunt' on the strength of such a post but I congratulate you on having a crystal ball that you can gaze into and predict so firmly that something like that will never happen!

Where did I say you'd called me a pompous ass? - I never made that accusation at all so have no idea where you got that impression from.

If you've got a problem with my comments, I suggest you take it up with Saeed but as he's already said he sees nothing wrong with my comments, I'll be surprised if you'll get far and if you still don't like them, then I suggest you either grow up or don't read them or put me on ignore but don't for a moment expect me to be dictated to about what I say or how I say it by you....... because that'll never happen in a million years.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

It's not bullshit at all. It's a very good possibility that some naive hunter who wants a lion for his trophy room might book a 'hunt' on the strength of such a post.

And posting something like this... Before considering a hunt like this please read here ... on a hunt report would spread your gospel just as well and perhaps not negatively influence someone else from wanting to post a hunt report.

If you can not understand that then we are simply going to have to agree to disagree.

Jim

Frostbit:

I do find this one report to be different. The guy appears to be a booking agent. In the interest of being honest, he should point out this is not a wild lion hunt and if he doesn't know, then it should be pointed out lest others book the hunt based on that thread.

What if Jim Buntworth posted a hunt report on one of his canned hunts? We all deride his show; how is that any different? Or are you saying hunt reports should be sacrosanct no matter what? What if I post a hunt report saying I wounded an animal in Alaska but didn't burn the tag? Or used a scope on a muzzleloader in a state where that is illegal? Shouldn't other readers be made aware of this?

Personally, any time I see "Kalahari lion" I think canned hunt, but perhaps not everyone has the same suspicion.

Steve, while I might not agree with your views on SA, your views about this "hunt" and the posting thereof is spot on.
Either the guy knew it was a dodgy hunt or he didnt. Either scenario is equally scary. To honestly belive any lion hunt in SA is "wild" is laughble.

Agree with the last two posts 100%. As a TV producer who invests so much time, effort, and capitol filming, and often failing on truly wild lions, I really get tired of fellow producers whacking full maned monsters in SA ( all one day events) and then trying to sell it as a Kalahari cat, whatever that is. My ire is not so much the hunt, but trying to pass it off as a free range\wild lion affair. I sit at the Golden Moose and Sportsman Channel awards every year and listen to other producers tell the same old " we barely escaped with our lives" crap as they show video footage of a eight person crew ' stalking ' a resting lion so the blond of the month can zip a poorly aimed arrow into the confused cat. Man it gives me heartburn. JUST BE STRAIGHT UP ON THE SITUATION. Do that and it will be smooth sailing on AR.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

It's not bullshit at all. It's a very good possibility that some naive hunter who wants a lion for his trophy room might book a 'hunt' on the strength of such a post.

And posting something like this... Before considering a hunt like this please read here ... on a hunt report would spread your gospel just as well and perhaps not negatively influence someone else from wanting to post a hunt report.

If you can not understand that then we are simply going to have to agree to disagree.

Jim

Why would I post an ad for my book (the clue is in the title ) on a hunt report about dodgy lions? - One thing has nothing to do with the other but thanks for the free ad anyway.

It's not that I don't understand your unwarranted attack on me at all, it's that I hold very firm convictions about the canned lion thing and am free to express those views any time and any place I want to and that's my prerogative and no number or immature attacks from you or your buddies will change my mind on that........ If you don't like it, I suggest you do the other thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Frostbit

Firstly: I didn't piss on the man at all but I did point out he'd been sold a pup if he thought he'd had a wild lion hunt and that is entirely correct.

I later pointed that the 'hunt' was either misrepresented to him or he was misrepresenting it to others and in either case, it could lead to others booking similar 'hunts' if that fact was not pointed out and those things are also entirely correct and bearing in mind he's an agent, VERY important.

Steve, it was a hunt report and you pissed on it PERIOD!!

Where have I EVER claimed to be an authority on anything? I do often express opinions and sometimes give info but I never have and never will, claim to be an authority on anything.

We could certainly start here!!

I also posted a link to an article on our own website on how to spot the differences between a canned lion and a proper hunt...... I've posted that link several times before so it's probably been viewed before by most here who are interested.

"Your website" - would that be an "expert" opinion?

I also posted "I have always said and always will say that canned lion shooting gives no benefit whatsoever to the wild lion populations because wild lion populations are on quota and therefore only a set number can be shot. Therefore the only benefit of captive bred lions is to the unethical and unscrupulous bastards that sell or shoot them and that this despicable practice will be one of the major contributory facors to the eventual banning of all lion hunting and eventually all lions outside of zoos" and I stand by that opinion. hell, they even proudly advertise what they do by posting pics and vids all over the net and couldn't make things easier for the antis if they tried.

This thread is not about Lion hunting, it's about you being a pompous ass and shitting on a man's hunt report.

This debate has raged for years and I've posted my own views on every occasion so why start a new thread to simply recover old ground?

I've never claimed to be a great PH but I do have a fair bit of experience in a number of different African countries and have hunted a reasonable number of DG and other animals over the years...... As for posting pics, if you do a search of my previous posts, you'll find my policy on that ..... I stopped doing it many years ago because of image theft and you'll find examples of many of my old pics floating about the net, including a few lions.

Convenient and expected excuse. Guess MJines thought so also.

Another search on my old posts will show you that I've previously said to others that I don't need to and will not justify myself to you or anyone else. - I don't give a flying fuck what you or anyone else thinks about me. I am what I am. Nothing more and nothing less.

That's good Steve, cause I think you are a pompous ass that has over represented himself on this forum. When I first came on here I was sent a PM by a well respected booking agent to pull out a complete bag of salt and not just a grain in regards to your advice.

You are also shooting from the lip with your policy of Ad Hominem which if you don't know translates to 'attack the man when you can't win the argument'.

And you Sir are diverting the target from pissing on a hunt report to opinions on hunting Lions in RSA. This thread is not about Lions it's about a disrespectful attitude towards someone sharing an experience.

Incidentally, I've also said that a captive bred lion is often no less dangerous than a wild one (unless of course still drugged) and that these practices are not limited to SA alone and that they happen in several other African countries as well.

What's important here is that lions and lion hunting continue for the next generation not that hunters get a lion in their trophy room at any cost or that their sensibilities are offended by my perhaps slightly hard nosed comments.

The fact is that canned lion shooting is wrong and will one day come back to bite us in the arse and that I'm dead right to criticise it.

Fine!! It's a loosely moderated forum and should stay that way. Criticize RSA Lion hunting all you want. Piss on a hunt report and I will again call you out for the pompous ass you are.

Jim

I missed this one and it's just been pointed out to me and you did indeed call me a pompous ass........ Strange how you can behave like an adolescent teenage girl and throw childish personal insults at people and yet also criticise me for stating the truth about what was obviously a dodgy lion hunt shoot.

As for the rest of that post, might I suggest you seek urgent and serious psychiatric help because your comments have absolutely no relation to reality and so I won't even bother trying to dignify such a hysterical claptrap rant with answers.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Agree with the last two posts 100%. As a TV producer who invests so much time, effort, and capitol filming, and often failing on truly wild lions, I really get tired of fellow producers whacking full maned monsters in SA ( all one day events) and then trying to sell it as a Kalahari cat, whatever that is. My ire is not so much the hunt, but trying to pass it off as a free range\wild lion affair. I sit at the Golden Moose and Sportsman Channel awards every year and listen to other producers tell the same old " we barely escaped with our lives" crap as they show video footage of a eight person crew ' stalking ' a resting lion so the blond of the month can zip a poorly aimed arrow into the confused cat. Man it gives me heartburn. JUST BE STRAIGHT UP ON THE SITUATION. Do that and it will be smooth sailing on AR.

Dave, I think one of the problems with painting every RSA lion hunt with the same brush is that they are not all the same color. We filmed a Kalahari lioness hunt and portrayed it the way it was....a captively bred lion but.....and it's a big but in our minds..........the property we hunted it on was 26,000 acres, it always has lions on it, there were no drugged lions involved and it was not in a pen nor was it released that morning. We saw lion tracks every day we hunted and we saw lions and lion kills on the property several times.

Was it a wild, free-ranging hunt? No and we never portrayed that but was it a guaranteed/canned hunt? No it definitely wasn't. Painting every hunt with the same brush makes the painter look foolish as those trying to pass these off as wild hunts. Are people killing drugged lions and passing it off as a wild hunt...sure...and they should be called on their BS but.................

I agree. I have actually seen a large number of high fence operations up close and personal. I also have men I call dear friends operate on and even own some of them. Again, I never said they cannot be exciting, dangerous, memorable or anything else. I simply ask for them not to be classified, or even implied to be free range. That is all.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
As for the rest of that post, might I suggest you seek urgent and serious psychiatric help because your comments have absolutely no relation to reality

You think I take any credence from the same person that posted this in the same thread?


"Perhaps one of the most interesting and versatile words in the English language is the word fuck. It is the only word which can describe pain, pleasure, hate, and love. Fuck falls into many grammatical categories. It can be used as a verb, both transitive (John fucked Mary) and intransitive (Mary was fucked by John). It can be an active verb (John really gives a fuck) or a passive verb (Mary really doesn’t give a fuck), an adverb (Mary is fucking interested in John), and a noun (Mary is a fine fuck). It can be used as an adjective (Mary is fucking beautiful). It should be obvious now that there are not many words in the English language with the versatility of the word fuck. Here’s just some of the other ways in which this lovely word can be used:
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Never forget the quotes of some famous people in our history and in the present:
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And last but not least, the immortal words of the captain of the Titanic, who said "Full speed ahead and fuck the iceberg" and five minutes later said "Where is all this fucking water coming from?
The mind fairly boggles at the many creative uses of the many creative uses of the word. How can anyone be offended when you say "FUCK"? Use fuck in your daily speech."

One of the ways to tell if what you're being told about the captive bred/hunting operations is true is to find out what price the package is being sold for and then to do the maths...... or if you're American, math!

For example if they claim a 6 month/180 day wilding period and you assume each self sustaining lion eats an average of one prey animal worth US$200 per day and never injures a prey animal that escapes and never kills a more expensive animal, that lion is consuming $36k worth of animals over that 6 month/180 day period.

Also don't forget you need to factor in a plethora of other costs to pay for getting the lion from birth to release/shooting age and so if the lion 'hunt' is being sold for let's say, USD15k then something in the offer simply has to be dodgy and the most likely thing to be dodgy is the length of the wilding period.

Frostbit

If the word offends you, then you don't understand it - nor do you have a sense of humour.

I'm certainly no lion expert but I have trouble believing that they'd consume an entire animal every day.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
I'm certainly no lion expert but I have trouble believing that they'd consume an entire animal every day.

Note my use of the phrase 'an average'. Some days it might not eat, some it might eat an impala, some a larger and more expensive animal such as an nyala, kudu or sable and that average price I did the maths (or math) on is (IMO) very much on the conservative side.

If you worked on an average of USD300 per day, the cost for that same period would rise to USD54k.

Also remember that lions are killing machines and will often kill whenever they get the chance and whether they're hungry or not.